I mean, for leveling and getting merits/cp its fine, but once you get to needing gear from escha and reisenjima, trusts just aren't going to cut it and on a low population server, theres a higher chance of never getting enough people for some of the harder stuff, due to everyone either already having all of it, not being interested, or only doing things with their ls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiyo
That's just been my experience from returning (since about the end of RoV, with a free time here and there) in November. Need things like Nibiru blade for blu, some abjuration gear for other jobs and herculean, but the most I can get for people is about 2-3, which is ok for certain t1s and maybe a t2 in zi'tah, but on a lower population server, I know I'm never going to get the people needed for t3s or anything without throwing all my gil at them.
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01-04-2017, 02:05 AMObysuca
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01-09-2017, 05:01 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
This "my preference > yours" is getting old lol. Is it really so hard to understand that some people simply prefer to play with mules/certain friends with mules and not having to read none sense yells?
Playing with mules/close friends isn't "against the core concept of an MMORPG". You still play with people, just that there are less people.
For people with mules and close friends with mules and capable of getting things done, smaller server has it's advantage. You can't have the best of both worlds, the problem is that some people that only see the advantage of bigger server just has to play the "my preference > yours" card. -
01-10-2017, 01:57 AMDiavolohttp://photos.gleuch.com/data/assets...ookmarklet.pngQuote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You can have the best of both worlds. Some of the more accomplished players on Asura do just as you describe, playing only with close friends and their mules.
I hope you don't think everyone on Asura is a casual player with only one account to their name and is out to sour your experience. You're comfortable where you are and see no reason to uproot yourself, which is fair enough, but when it comes to MMORPGs bigger is better. Personally, if I just wanted to play with a couple of friends and ignore the rest of the world I wouldn't be logging in to FFXI. The bigger the community the more interesting the game becomes. -
01-10-2017, 06:14 AMAfaniaNo you can't, lol. Also just FYI, I completely agree with you that unless you play 4~6+ character the benefit of bigger server generally outweight the benefit of smaller server, and the disadvantage of bigger server MAY become more tolerable for some individual if you consider faster character progression, IMO at least. But saying smaller server has zero unique benefit is absolutely biased, as biased as you think I claim every player on Asura are casual, which was never the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
I'm just going to list a few advantages that only exist on smaller/quiet servers only.
1) There are less competition for pop spot. And yes it has been debated several times, and yes you're probably not going to wait for 1hr just to pop on Asura. But still, if you think smaller server has equal competition and wait time as bigger server then you're just as biased. The wait time may not be earth shattering long like you claimed, but they're definitely not equal.
2) Most of the smaller server has more dominate JP community and vice versa, I don't know why, maybe because English speakers kept moving to Asura but not JPs. So if you're kind of player that enjoy joining JP LS, playing with Jps, joining JP shouts, other server has a better mix between JP and NA players.
3) There are more multi box rate on smaller servers due to people are forced to play 6+ characters, and somethings are easier to accomplish with multi boxers. My fastest melee WoC kill speed is 2 min 10 sec, with 2 people playing 4+ character that buff and drop, and a few more dual boxers. I don't think I can ever accomplish same kill speed without that many mules unless I pay people to come just to buff us. Now your argument is "you can do the same on Asura". The problem is that once you play on a server with more people, the incentive to 4 to 6 box gets a lot smaller, and it's much harder to find 4+ boxers for it. The 4~6+ box player rate on smaller servers are so much higher that as long as you can get them to pt with you, you get an army of mules to improve pt efficiency.
4) There are less yell dramas in town. You know, my favorite entertainment at work is to connect to FFXIAH, switch tab to Asura, then watch hours of yell about politics, LS drama, people, troll, jokes, job balance from different people and their mules and eat popcorn. Now while some people thinks it's fun/tolerable/not a big deal, that isn't the case for everyone. Some people simply prefer a cleaner yell channel when they play the game, instead of having to add troll mule names to blist every time when they play. There were even complaints on Reddit about politic yells.
You see, the issue here is that you're comparing apples to oranges when comparing the benefits of both servers. You obviously have your preference, but you use your own preference as some sort of universal facts and expect other players to have the same preference as you. Some people simply doesn't care about faster character progression even though most people do, some people don't find playing with lots of people fun even though you do. Some people find constant yell drama extremely frustrating to read and killed all the fun for them when they log on, even though it may be tolerable(or even entertaining) for others. Some people enjoy a server with 70% JP 30% NA instead of 70% NA 30% JP, some don't.
The point is that, just because you prefer more people, able to tolerate wait time, prefer faster character progression, able to tolerate yell drama, and never play with JP, doesn't mean others have the same preference as you. And all you've been doing in every server debate is trying to force your own personal preference on others, then hinted others are ignorant/not playing MMO/biased against Asura if they disagree with you. -
01-10-2017, 08:59 AMDiavoloAnd I'm going to tell you why those advantages don't amount to a whole lot:Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
It often takes less time to find an alternate pop spot than it does to wait on multiboxed characters to get located and setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
If you enjoy playing with Japanese players chances are you're happy wherever you currently are as they are more team oriented than we are thanks to their culture, but I'd make the same argument and say you're best off on Odin, just as English speakers are best off on Asura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
This is an odd point to make as I'm not sure what angle you're using to promote it. Yes, there are plenty of multiboxers on Asura doing all sorts of ridiculous things from UNM, Escha/Reis, HTBFs and going to bed with 5-6 accounts CPing while they sleep. If you play 6+ characters on Ragnarok you'll have no problem doing it on Asura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
This is amusing because you strike it down as a negative point while admitting you find it entertaining. Can't have it both ways! /blist only needs to be entered once, set it and forget it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You came to some rather odd conclusions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Playing with a worldwide community, in particular Japanese players, has been one of this game's strengths and some of my best memories comes from my time playing with/against them. I have very low tolerance for wait times. Character progression is a non-issue here unless you're conceding my point (bigger is better). This isn't apples and oranges, it's game servers and, well, game servers. It isn't about pushing preferences down anyone's throat as I'm not telling you how to play. I'm just telling you that you can do whatever you're doing on Ragnarok on Asura, too. -
01-10-2017, 09:06 AMJin_Uzuki
I really want to know how people survived in 2006 if they think 400 players are a lot and enough.
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01-10-2017, 09:44 AMAfania
@Diavolo, you know, my point isn't to debate which server is better. My point is to point out you're pushing your preference on others without ever realizing. Right now you think I'm attacking Asura, which isn't the case. I'm not even talking about nor defending for MY personal preference which you seems to misunderstood(I prefer faster character progression most of the time, just like you)I'm just pointing out your behaviors(not respecting other's decision) in these discussions, repeatly.
Or the better choice(for some people) is to enter 0 times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
Do whatever content you want, more likely yes. Have the same playing experience, no. You can't possibly expect to have same MMORPG playing experience with different people, LS, server, activity, social connections, economy. You simply just don't. Ragnarok is very different from Odin, Asura is very different from Bahamut, Fenrir is very different from valefor, phoenix is very different from siren. The game server and playing experience is so much more than just numbers of people online. This isn't a "Asura has 1200 people, so it's better than every other servers with 300 people because mathematically 1200>300" sort of deal. Even if the entire server of Fenrir, or Valefor, or Ragnarok, or Phoenix NA players move to Asura and those people play with same groups of people from their original servers, the playing experience is still very different due to different social hierarchy and how community/groups interact with each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
One example is someone that I know of, did very well on a smaller server due to having certain job/gear that's rare and useful in endgame community. This gave him a higher social status in endgame community and allows him to get harder things done more easily. On asura he doesn't have nearly as much social influence due to more competitors in the job market that can replace him.
If you consider the social hierarchy and how people interact with each other instead of just looking at the server numbers, you'd know that MMO playing experience is ALOT more than just server numbers.
Again, your pov about MMO completely ignored the unique culture, history, social hierarchy of each group in the server. You probably made the Odin suggestion based on the fact that Odin has higher JP number, but a lot of times how well a player could do is more complex than just numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
For example, a player that's well connected to top tier/elite JP community on X server and get the advantage of it(aka: Able to get server first aeonic clears, clear master trials etc) may not be able to do so well on Y server without the connection, even if Y server is bigger.(Not saying I'm such a person, but such cases exists all the time)
But it is. How surprising.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
I know one person that have account active and stay subbed since launch, and that person never do any endgame content, just have the character afk in starting zone/city and wonder around.
You'd be surprised that people actually play the game for very reason different from you, isn't it. Some people simply just don't value faster character progression nor number of people as much as you do.
What if the person just HAVE FUN with clean yell channel, and DON'T HAVE FUN with more yells?
What if that person just HAVE FUN with less people walking around, and DON'T HAVE FUN with more people?
What if that person just HAVE FUN reading JP in yell instead of English?
What if that person just DON'T HAVE FUN entering names to blist?
There could be 300 million different reasons why someone prefer a low pop server, and the reasons are all very different from your preference that you could never accept nor understand. You know, I can actually list a lot more small server benefits than the above 4. Regardless server choice it's 100% personal preference, apples and oranges. You repeatly, use "faster progression" and "more people" or even "this is MMO!" to sell your point, without ever realizing that some people simply just don't have fun with faster progression nor play with more people. Then you start chains of personal attacks and made tons of assumptions about whoever disagree with you, that does nothing except pissing others off for having different opinion about playing the game from you.
Anyways, I'm done with all these "My preference > yours" and "I'm right you're wrong" debate. -
01-10-2017, 12:03 PMDiavoloI'm at a loss for words. Did I just step into Bizarro World?Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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01-10-2017, 01:09 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
I guess I'm preaching to the choir as much as you do. -
01-10-2017, 04:07 PMVashkodaI am surprised that you have 2 ls's and yet come here to the forums to ask general questions about how to get caught up. Are they of no help to you at all? If so, perhaps try to make friends elsewhere. It's not necessarily about the server you're on; even the small servers have social ls's with friendly players who are more than capable of low-manning some of those NMs and letting you lot drops that are otherwise left to rot. They may not advertise themselves, so you might need to find them through word of mouth (or just straight up ask someone politely for help, and see if they offer to befriend you).Quote:
Originally Posted by alazar14
In 2006, people still spent a significant amount of game time leveling. Back then, it was to your advantage to have as many players as possible seeking invites, to quickly build your exp/merit party. The range of player experience also meant that a great majority weren't bothering with endgame material. Now leveling up to 99 takes a few hours at most, and the servers are top-heavy with fully leveled players who have nothing to do *but* endgame. Given that most of the "endgame" events of 2006 can now be solo'ed, there simply isn't enough of that material for a large player population. And the more recent endgame events of course have been programmed to discourage you (or flat out prevent you) from bringing more than 6 players. Regardless of just how much you might feel the effect of being on a large vs small server in terms of competition for entering instanced events or for farming limited mobs/triggers, your basic problem lies in actually finding 5 other players to do those events with you. Whether that's easier on a larger or smaller server is debatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
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01-10-2017, 04:34 PMJin_UzukiQuote:
Originally Posted by Vashkoda
You are right, and pretty much everywhere you went leveling there was competition, to the point people actually needed to discuss camping spots. Not only that, but every time you went NM hunting you had competition. Also Sky, even 2 parties doing sky could run into huge problems. Coffers/chests hunting? Huuuge competition. Crafting was also far much more competitive given that even if you level slowly you still had to deal with like... 10k+ players. Oh yeah, people had run schedule for Dyna.
In fact, the game in 2006 was far much competitive than now due to 1) Much more people around running stuff 2) Far less spots to do stuff 3) Lockdown and general difficulty to set up things meant people weren't spread in 360 directions like they are these days
Now please I want to hear about how you handled zoning into Aht Urhgan and finding 1000 ppl running around doing stuff. What about zoning into Crawler Nest and Garlaige cittadel and finding 2 parties exping any time? Or going zoning into Giddeus and finding 7+ people camping Hoo Mjuu the Torrent?
In fact, the game got much more less competitive with time. Compare Escha to Sky, escha actually allows several people to run stuff in parallel. Sure, there are more people running endgame but 1) Not everyone is running escha at the same time 2) 1000 people are actually very little in MMOPRG. You have people from Asura LITERALLY telling you that "competition" is not an issue and people still think Asura is populated like 2006 Crawler Nest. It's honestly kind of hilarious, I wonder what imagine people have of more "populated" servers in the mind. (especially given that populated servers don't even have 1/10 of their server population in 2005 or so)
As opposed to now? Last time I checked you want 6 people to CP and even for T2+ (Even some T1) most people want full party. Avatars too.Quote:
Back then, it was to your advantage to have as many players as possible seeking invites, to quickly build your exp/merit party.
No, it's not, what the hell? How is easier to find people to run stuff if there are LESS people online?Quote:
Whether that's easier on a larger or smaller server is debatable.
"Woah, there is no one online, all my friend are AFK I can't rely on shouts, but somehow it's easier to get stuff done!" -
01-10-2017, 04:44 PMAfaniaIn general, player progress is still much faster on bigger server unless you play 6+ characters and write scripts for them proficiently. But saying bigger server has same or less competition in escha as smaller server is just false info. I don't mind people promoting Asura because it's more active. But providing false info shouldn't be encouraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashkoda
My point is, I'm encouraging for objective, accurate info. Not exaggerated info that's clearly false or misleading. Whether someone prefers bigger or smaller server is 100% personal preference, and none of anyone's business.
I don't know how you multi box tbh. Last time I checked, running to #1 ??? in Ruann find it full, go back to #1 again and warp, click #2 and find full, click next warp takes more than 1 min. Running to #2 ??? in Reisen, find it full, run back to #2 or warp ring then go to #4 ??? takes longer than 3 min for sure. If you play with real people instead of mules I can promise you it'll take longer than 10 min most of the time. No efficient multi boxer takes more than a min to zone their characters. All the statement about competitions are being made and exaggerated to an extreme point, that idk what to say anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
And yes, multi boxed characters runs and setup faster than real players who often afk, got lost, forgot tribs, aggro mobs, what a surprise. -
01-10-2017, 04:46 PMAfaniaI just spent pages to explain. Connections that only exists on certain servers, mules. Also this is kinda depend on content things. You simply don't shout for melee WoC nor master trials. You're speaking from a complete PUG point of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
Also just to provide some correct information, you don't need 6 people for T2+. 3 is enough for everything up to T3, Yakshi is doable with 3, I wouldn't be surprised if it's doable with 2. Anything easier than yakshi is doable with 3 or less, which is almost all of the T1~T3 escha NM that I can think of.
Not if you use certain strategy. #2 in reisen and #1 in ruann is often preferred for certain NM. You can probably* still win without those pop spot, but those slot still gains advantage that other ??? doesn't have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
Also some ??? in reisen and ruann is massive aggro fest, which increases the time taken considerably because one person is guarantee to aggro things.
Once again, saying escha content can support multiple party on the same time without suffering from certain disadvantage is just false info. Objectively speaking, it can't. -
01-10-2017, 05:13 PMJin_UzukiConnections exist in every server. Mules too. LS of people banding together exist on every servers as well people making friendships with people and getting non-LS connections with them. They have existed for years and will exist until the end of this game forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
The only difference is that you lose the ability to do stuff if you "connections" are offline and afk and you are completely at loss if you are a returning/new player.
No I did not. You missed "most people". Most people aren't 2100/2100 JP <insert job> that can solo/duo T3. I did T3. Don't try to be coy with me.Quote:
Also just to provide some correct information, you don't need 6 people for T2+. 3 is enough for everything up to T3, Yakshi is doable with 3, I wouldn't be surprised if it's doable with 2. Anything easier than yakshi is doable with 3 or less, which is almost all of the T1~T3 escha NM that I can think of.
Funny you mention #1 in Ruann, that the actual spot where you can get agroed, isn't it. #2 on reisenjima too I think? Most people use #9.Quote:
Not if you use certain strategy. #2 in reisen and #1 in ruann is often preferred for certain NM. You can probably* still win without those pop spot, but those slot still gains advantage that other ??? doesn't have.
Also some ??? in reisen and ruann is massive aggro fest, which increases the time taken considerably because one person is guarantee to aggro things.
Once again, saying escha content can support multiple party on the same time without suffering from certain disadvantage is just false info. Objectively speaking, it can't.
What are these "advantages" anyway?
Still want to know how you handled FFXI in 2006 were there was competition everywhere. I mean, you can't handle picking a different ??? in escha what did you do when you had to discuss exping spots that were less favorable? I'm genuinely curious now. -
01-10-2017, 05:28 PMAfaniaThe problem is, again, besides one person nobody else in this entire chains of discussion is trying to sell their server. Besides that person nobody is saying new/returning player should NOT go to Asura.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
You guys are trying to sell Asura to new/returning players, I got it. But why are you also trying to convince everyone else with LS/friends/connections on their home to leave their LS/friends for Asura and cut off their connections? That just makes no sense to me. It seems to me that you're just trying to justify your choice, when nobody bashes your choice to begin with.
Also your idea of connection is obviously different from mine. My idea of connection involves people that meets certain qualifications(certain job/gear/owns certain number of mules/high level of trusts and intimacy etc), it's not just anyone. Asura and Odin is currently top 2 server in terms of population, if I'm going to try and replicate that 2 min melee woc/100% win rate again, I wouldn't be able to pull it off on Asura nor Odin just because I don't have access to these people, even though both servers are the biggest NA servers. People that meets the job/gear/prebuff mule qualification wouldn't help a stranger like me. I can go out and make 300 friends and join multiple LSs on those servers, that doesn't mean I can get the access to people to pull it off. It simply can only be done with very, very specific people/groups, because of certain social restrictions.
Long story short, when it comes to the definition of connections, it is not the number that matters, but individual.
Telling people to leave their LS/friends for Asura(that's what some people have been doing in this discussion) is just cutting off connections, which is against my original point.
Elevation and kiting space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
There's absolutely no point to compare exping in 2006 with endgame in 2017. The time is different, situations are different, trust/mule tool access are different, contents are different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
And even if someone prefer a 400 people low pop server at that time, they wouldn't have the choice in 2006. Now you're basically just arguing for the sake of winning the argument by playing the 2006 card.
Again, you want to play with real people, I got it. But why must you guys repeatly argue with those who doesn't? -
01-10-2017, 06:36 PMdetlef
#2 Reisenjima is a really uniquely useful pop location as stated.
Also, nobody is saying Valefor is better than Asura or anything like that. Rather, there are legitimate reasons to prefer a server like Valefor for some people. Emphasis on some people. Not all people, some. Again, not all people. Some. -
01-10-2017, 06:57 PMDiavolo
Afania, you're so far out there right now that it's amazing. You seem to be reading things that just aren't there.
Asura's the logical choice for new/returning players, there's not much of an argument to be made against it. There's more to do because there are more people to do it all with. No one's telling you to leave your LS/friends/intimate "connections" or whatever you want to call them. As I said, you (and whoever you play with) could do everything you're doing on Ragnarok on Asura, too, if you wanted, of course. A common misconception that people have in these types of threads is that Asura is overcrowded and unwelcoming (i.e. "I wait 10 mins for Ambu on Sylph so you must wait 30+ mins on Asura") which couldn't be further from the truth.
If it didn't present such a technical hurdle for the skeleton crew then merging all the servers together would make a whole lot of sense right now. End the game in the same spirit as it began, where "thousands of players will unite" and "experience a living, breathing, persistent world that exists 24/7 whether you're in it or not," as the FFXI promotional video so succinctly put it. If I had a time machine and went back to 2004 to warn myself about how this game would change in its final years the younger me would probably slap me upside the head and call me a terrible liar. Avoiding social exposure used to be a trait of the stereotypical nerd/gamer and they'd use online games as a way of coping. Now we can't even do that anymore because nothing's allowed to get in the way of our multiboxing euphoria. Everything needs to be streamlined now, including the social experience. I mean, hell, we're using the 30 seconds it might take to warp from one Eschan portal to another as a reason to avoid joining a much larger population, so imagine the hassle of interacting with a stranger... In case anyone needs a reminder, we were all that stranger once. -
01-10-2017, 07:06 PMJin_UzukiNo, not really. I can't tell you how play MMORPG, and certainly not how to spend your money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I'm just telling you that you ideas of what is possible on bigger servers are wrong and you can literally do everything you do on a 300 ppl server on a 1000 ppl server because 1000 people is very low for a MMORPG. That's all.
You are right. 2006 was much worse for competition.Quote:
There's absolutely no point to compare exping in 2006 with endgame in 2017. The time is different, situations are different, trust/mule tool access are different, contents are different.
And yet people managed. What a mystery! -
01-11-2017, 12:25 AMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
There's only one person(and that person wasn't me) that suggested other server for new and returning player, and even then Asura is only the "logical choice" when you want faster progression.
Some people don't play the game and try for faster progression. I do, you probably do too that's why you're suggesting Asura. But for many, many, many people that I know of, play the game for social purposes. If social is their purpose, then Asura is no longer your so called logical choice.
It is still possible to get things done in other servers too, just slower. But there could be many reason that people prefer other servers.
What I'm trying to say here is that you guys keep making opinion like this:
Some people play on NotAsura because they hate trolls, some people play on NotAsura because they have old friend refuse(or doesn't need to) move, some people play on NotAsura because have groups. And all these are valid reasons. But you are basically hinting all these people are making illogical choices and everyone should move for a better life, if they don't then they misunderstood Asura, which is just come out as cocky, playing as a victim, and not respecting others choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
No one said a thing about Ambuscade though, I only said something about Escha. There isn't one single thread that I claim Ambuscade wait time is 30+ min, I only said Escha competition is definitely less on smaller server.
Unwelcoming or not completely depend on individual, who you meet, and who you play with. You can't claim "X server is welcoming" without considering other people play with different groups.
I can't, reasonably. Those server environments are way too different socially, and I simply can't control those factors even if I want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
I'm not a multi boxer, but I heavily rely on multi box people with key jobs whenever I theorycraft a new setup for harder stuff and wanted to try it. Some of the things that I've done on Ragnarok, I can't ever replicate on different server even if they have 5000 people.
But that's another story, and irrelevant to this discussion nor the point I'm trying to make.
My point in this entire discussion is that you only used server numbers and character progression speed as a standard state it as an universal fact. But you didn't consider sometimes people play MMO for more than just that.
If anything it's you with the misconception that nobody understands Asura except you, and everyone else who choose NotAsura just don't know well enough. -
01-11-2017, 02:23 AMAfaniaI need more than 30 sec to warp from one point to another at #2, but at this point I'll just stop arguing about it and provide some data from my collection since you kept mentioning social aspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
From 2015 I've sent out around 20 applications to endgame LSs(that can or have been trying for high lv endgame, not just some people got together for easy T2 T3s) on Asura/Odin/Bismarck/Fenrir/Bahamut/Ragnarok
Out of all the Asura applications, 9 were rejected, 1 were accepted. 10% success rate. The reason of rejection is they're full and only accept X/Y/Z job with X/Y/Z gear, which I don't have, nor want to play.
All my Bismarck app were rejected for the same reason.
All of my Fenrir app were rejected for the same reason.
1 app on Bahamut were accepted.
1 of my app on Odin were accepted, but it's JP. Rest were meh.
Out of all 4 Ragnarok applications, all 4 were accepted. Unlike most of the NotRagnarok apps, none of the LS that I sent out app on Ragnarok ever ask me if I have X/Y/Z job or X/Y/Z gears, I just automatically got a pearl when I asked. Still 100% success rate.
I'm sure one of the Asuran people would pop and tell me "but I have 80%+ success rate on my Asura endgame LS apps" etc. But that becomes "it depends on individual and your connection" sort of things, and one person's experience doesn't apply to everyone.
You see, when people are interacting with each other, it's reallly more than just numbers of people on servers. Just because someone play on a bigger server, doesn't mean they can do better endgame wise. Farming domain evasion, farming gil, do ambuscade, shout for PUG, all these activities 100% favors bigger server like Asura. But for people that seek things that requires endgame connections, it's another story and it depends on who you know.
All of the app that I sent out on Ragnarok, the decision makers are people that I know for many, many, many years and these people in leadership positions knew me well enough that what I can bring to table for their LS is more than just jobs/gears, but the ability to help other members improve, theorycraft a better setup, improve pt efficiency and workflow, and knowledge in FFXI mechanics. You know, something more valuable to an endgame LS than jobs/gears.
All of the app that I've sent out on NotRagnarok servers, most of the decision makers don't know me as a person, so they had to make decisions based on what jobs/gears I have, which was nothing useful to them or highly replaceable, thus much, much, much higher rate of rejections.
And THAT is what i meant by connections. It's people that you know, and people that knows you, and it's more complicated than just "But there's connections on Asura too". Your connections, not mine.
Anyways, I don't want to come out as some sort of Asura rant nor bashing the server as a whole, that isn't my intention. I think the server is great for returning players that's connectionless regardless of servers, and seeks faster character progressions. And I'm very sure that some people out there could accomplish a much higher application success rate on Asura. In fact I know more than a couple of person that does much better endgame wise after they move. It's just that one person's experience can't apply to everyone equally, and there's just no way I'd rate Asura better or worse servers than NotAsura. Apples and Oranges, saying one server is better or worse than another is as none sense as saying one company is better than another, or one country/city is better than another. All opinions.
Tl;dr, All servers are great with their own benefits, okay? -
01-11-2017, 03:15 AMAfaniaNo you're wrong. Just because you can do everything on a 1000 people server on paper, doesn't mean you can pull it off on practice. I can't just server transfer to a 5000 people server(if they exist) and finish all T4 in a day, I still need to go through the process of sending out app to endgame LSs, begging every leader for a pearl, lv new jobs to fulfill their needs, take time to chat and build connections etc and that is A LOT of time investment. While I can finish all T4s in a day on a 300 people server with LS(s) that I'm already in, gain leadership positions and organize my own endgame runs, use my favorite setup, get 5 extra prebuff mules without having to pay people. I can't do any of these things on any of the NotRagnarok server without heavy time investment just because I don't have the connections to do so. Even if you think I can if I want to/work hard/lv 4+ mules myself, I can't, realistically speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
Doing certain stuff is more than just pull people out of a big number pools, it involves many, many, many different factors.
The endgame environment of Asura is just too different from NotAsura. Lower multi box rate, highly competitive job market, less opportunity to gain social influences in endgame scenes(unless you're some kind of superstar player) are some of the Asura traits. Think of it as big city with google/microsoft v.s smaller towns. When you send out a job app to a big company in a big city, you're competing with 400 people wanting the same job and you don't necessary get one. When you send out an app to a small company in your hometown you get the job more easily and gets promotion faster. And there's very little you can do to change that fact. Can you get a job at Microsoft if you work hard? Sure you can! But not everyone can or wants to. Some people may become super successful in big cities, some people just don't and live on streets when they could have at least got a manager job in their hometown, at family owned cornerstore.
My point is, everyone has different circumstances. What works for one person doesn't necessary work for everyone. -
01-11-2017, 04:09 AMdetlef
Diavolo and Jin. You guys are arguing in absolutes. You're not arguing that X is generally better than Y. You're arguing that X is always better than Y with no exceptions. In FFXI and in life, we know that's not the case.
I've already acknowledged that yes, there's a chance that Asura is the best server for a player (or a returning player, as that's what the thread was originally about). But again, is it not possible for a player to prefer a different server? -
01-11-2017, 05:03 AMJin_UzukiNo, it's not. I played on both a low populated server and a a high populated server. Heck I played on Ragnarok in 2006 when the server was literally exploding with players!Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
The only difference is that you got 1000 players running around instead of 400. That's all. Which are low. 1000 players are absolutely low in a MMORPG.
(Both servers don't have 400 and 1000 players running around anyway once you start to count anyway because you need to take afk, bazaar, etc that grow as the playerbase grow)
You keep thinking I'm telling you to switch server, but I'm not. I'm telling you if your server had 1000 players literally nothing would change except things so small that they wouldn't be an issue unless you choose to make them so and will require you to ignore the advantages a more rich playerbase bring. -
01-11-2017, 05:27 AMAfania
double post
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01-11-2017, 05:42 AMAfaniaAt this point I don't know if you even get my point since we're saying completely different things. I'm talking about endgame(WoC/T4/PW2), not ambuscade, vagary, domain evasion, crafting, WKR htbc, T1~T3. On the other hand you're obviously talking about ambuscade, vagary, domain evasion, crafting, WKR, htbc, T1~T3 but not endgame because you probably don't even do high lv endgame.(If you do then you won't even ask about pop spot advantages as every endgame player knows what they're for)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
Assuming 10% of playerbase does endgame regardless of server. Using your number of 1000 v.s 400, here's the math.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
Assuming Server A has 1000 players, 100 are endgame players that can kill WoC/T4(10% of players are endgame players), I have 10% success rate on big server endgame LS applications, out of all 100 endgame players, I only get to do WoC/T4 with 10 people because 10% of 100=10.
Assuming Server B has 400 players, 40 can kill WoC/T4(10% endgame players), with 100% application success rate, I get to do endgame with 40 people because 100% of 40 is 40.
There, you guys prefer math and numbers, and here is math and numbers. 40 > 10.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Not very convincing from someone who obviously don't do endgame on a regular basis, nor have fundamental understanding of how top end endgame LS power structure works on various servers. Just because you have "played" on those servers, doesn't mean you're right. Ambuscade/CP pt/T1 to T3 could be all you do on those servers, and you can still pop on the forum and claim you have "played" on all those servers. But you're still wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
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01-11-2017, 05:46 AMDiavoloMy argument is that anyone - and all their friends/LS mates if need be - can play the game the same way they're currently playing it if they moved servers. That being true, what purpose does a smaller server retain? Moving to Asura doesn't stop you from doing anything you're currently doing and, on top of that, presents you with new options the smaller servers do not. I use Asura as the standard not because I have friends there (though some did move there before/after and with me) but because, in all likelihood, no other server will come close to matching its English speaking player base before the game shuts down completely and 1,600 simultaneous accounts online is still a far cry from the numbers we used to play with. So, even if you're of the opinion that the game is 2x, 4x, 6x or whatever amount more demanding on the servers as it used to be there is still room to grow. 16 servers in 2017 is just too many. Players who return from a long hiatus often wind up hitting the message boards and asking where to transfer to because their servers are, in their eyes, dead compared to what they remembered. Why does this need to be a thing? Twice before in the game's history it consolidated servers when their numbers went too low for the dev team's liking. Those servers that were underpopulated in March 2010 and May 2011 were all more populated than Asura currently is today. Can we stop acting like 1,600 simultaneous players is too much for a world the size of FFXI's?Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Afania's anecdotal evidence of submitting LS applications on multiple servers comes with the obvious downside of being incapable of more thoroughly examining the playing field on his own terms and interacting with players beyond a message board, so is it any surprise that he got rejected by everyone except those he had personal ties to? Of course not. Like I told him earlier in the thread, I don't expect people to uproot themselves and leave their friends behind, but if you were able to get everyone you played with to move with you then you would all be better off on the largest server. It is as simple as that.
If there is something you can do on a smaller server that's impossible to do on the larger ones I'd love to hear it. It might do this discussion some good as the accusations of hurling personal insults and having words stuffed down my throat are starting to get annoying. -
01-11-2017, 05:51 AMJin_UzukiWhat kind of bizarre definition of endgame is this? Even if you take out Vagary and Ambu despite the fact they are 99 events, who the hell excludes T1-3? Especially Reisenjima ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Or probably because I don't use the restrictive endgame definition as you. No one talks about "endgame" using exclusively WoC and T4. You can do Vir'ava, Maju and Escha T4 at #1 and #9 all the sameQuote:
(If you do then you won't even ask about pop spot advantages as every endgame player knows what they're for)
Quote:
Assuming 10% of playerbase does endgame regardless of server. Using your number of 1000 v.s 400, here's the math.
Assuming Server A has 1000 players, 100 are endgame players that can kill WoC/T4(10% of players are endgame players), I have 10% success rate on big server endgame LS applications, out of all 100 endgame players, I only get to do WoC/T4 with 10 people because 10% of 100=10.
Assuming Server B has 400 players, 40 can kill WoC/T4(10% endgame players), with 100% application success rate, I get to do endgame with 40 people because 100% of 40 is 40.
There, you guys prefer math and numbers, and here is math and numbers. 40 > 10.
... what. -
01-11-2017, 06:04 AMAfaniaWhile I agree the rejection rate is most likely because of connection(that's like, literally the entire point I've been making) and possibly the higher competition in the job market, it's not possible to move entire server of NA population from one server to another like you claimed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
Again, you keep saying "just move, everyone move!", but that's not going to happen. In past 2 years, some people have moved, some people don't, and claimed that they will never move because they don't give a damn about progression speed. You keep having this ideal scenario in your head that entire community could just move without a word, but you didn't consider the unique scenario that some people simply just don't move. You also speak strictly from a more general perspective, from a bigger picture, while I speak from an individual pov.
And even if in your most ideal scenario that all the none big 3 server players move to Asura, that's 12 servers of population. 12x300= 3600. That's 3600+ more people adding to Asura's 1200 people, making it 4800+. Even if competition on Asura is tolerable now with 1200 players, it certainly won't be with 4800. In fact I think at that point it'd hurt Asura more than anything. And I certainly, for sure, without doubt, don't want to play on a server with close to 5000 people even if all my connections are around.
Also to people who repeatly play the "but other MMO has more than that" or "but 2006 FFXI has more than that" card. Other MMO has instances, FFXI doesn't. 2006 FFXI has multiple EXP camps accross all lv, 2017 FFXI only has 1 real endgame content which is T4/Kirin, and only 1 (ideal)pop spot for those NM. And yes, people schedule dynamis back then, and you also did dyna on a weekly basis that you aren't losing any dyna runs by scheduling, unlike these days there are multiple small groups spams escha NM daily.
The situations are so different that idk what to say when I read "other MMO" or "2006 FFXI" -
01-11-2017, 06:06 AMAfaniaBecause some people seeks T4/Kirin/WoC/master trials/PW2 activities, but they don't need T1/T3 at all. So they choose a server that gives them the best chance to do these things. While you pop on the forum and tell people "no your choice is wrong" without considering other people have different goals/preferred content from you, thus unable to make the same choice as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
You're making a "general" argument, but that argument doesn't apply to everyone on the planet, who has drastically different in game goals from you.
I can do T1~T3 easily regardless of server, so "I need T1/T3" is never the reason why I consider/don't consider a server. All those servers are just not the same because of people that I know, or don't know.
If anything, want to play with/need X, Y, Z players has been the main reason why I choose a server in past 2 years. But not the population number. -
01-11-2017, 06:34 AMAfania
Also @Diavolo, none of my argument is anti merge if you're worried about SE won't merge servers because of people's opinion about smaller servers. My entire argument in this discussion has been about connections and how current escha game content doesn't favor server size TOO big. I think 1000 people or even 1500 people is just fine as it is, and I certainly don't mind merging servers. 5000 people is definitely not ok for Escha content, and possibly other contents though.
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01-11-2017, 06:42 AMdetlefHere's an example that may be unique to Valefor. In the NA community, I'd say we're generally months behind the really strong linkshells on other servers with more hardcore endgame communities. Basically, we have 2 NA linkshells that are capable of farming Aeonic weapons. We had a 3rd LS recently come back to the game from a long break; my hope is that they find success and start farming some Aeonics of their own. As I haven't experienced a larger server, I can't compare but I imagine the community is a lot more tight-knit and everybody knows everybody to a much higher degree. I live in Hawaii and I can definitely appreciate that (as the saying goes, "it's a small island"), although I acknowledge that it's not for everybody. People who burn their bridges leave. People who want gear faster than the server can provide it also leave. That's okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
Even though the NA community is small, the JP community is both strong and numerous. This means that a lot of the multi-player aspects of the server are still quite functional, such as the maintenance of blessings (not all the time though) and AH supply/demand.
Yes, I'm sure you'll say Asura is just like that except there are more people to do things. Maybe? But maybe not.
Hey now, only one person resorted to posting memes in this thread. If you're going to try and keep the discourse at a certain level, then check yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
I'm not making the claim that there's some things you can necessarily do on a smaller server that would be impossible on a larger server. Again, please, please go back to the first post I made in this thread that started this discussion.
May not. As in, there may be people who prefer a different server.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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01-11-2017, 09:21 AMDiavoloI never made such a claim. I'm telling you that you could move yourself/your LS/your friends to another server, in this case Asura, and still function as you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Why would anyone think this? Unless you're Professor X, communication is kind of necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Of course I considered it. Some people are stubborn, some don't have the luxury of $18 to spend, some just don't care for large populations, which is an unfortunate case for someone paying to play an MMORPG, but I digress. We're all speaking from personal points of view.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Why not? You did so in the past, assuming you played during the 75 cap days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Also, "All the none big 3 server players"? That's an odd way to go about it. 16 servers -> 1 server with a wealth of changes to accommodate the larger population. Future content would need to be designed with the open world. Go take a stroll through the old zones like Meriphataud and La Theine Plataeu, for example, where you can sometimes take a look around and not see a single monster 45+ yalms from you in any direction. That old content can be updated while retaining it's low level progression and questing status. Just add more monsters, lower their respawn timers, tweak existing NMs and/or add new new ones, including drops. Voila. What's old is new again and, if successful, will draw players out of town or away from other content we currently feel pigeonholed into, for lack of a better term.
I'm not WoW's biggest fan, but it did some things exceptionally well, including the open world design where you could accidentally walk into a camp of monsters far above your level if you weren't paying attention. It added a sense of danger/exploration to it that no longer exists in FFXI. In this day and age I probably wouldn't be exaggerating to say there are a lot of players who wouldn't know their way around a lot of the world, such as Western Altepa/Quicksand Caves, Dangruf Wadi/Northern Gustaberg, and so on. That's disappointing for a game with a world of this size. Remember questing the Selbina map? This game needs to give us reasons to get back out to those older, often ignored areas and want to spend our time there. There's one solution to the overcrowding concern.
2006 FFXI didn't have instances either. ;) We would get stuck waiting 1-45 mins in certain cases, or choose to move onto something else while the group inside finished up. The latter is what seems to escape people today. You see the Ambuscade wait time is 10 mins per entry, so why not go do something else until it quiets down? If your go-to CP camp is taken, instead of complaining about it on a message board or taking your ball and going home go explore the Adoulin areas. There are plenty of camps that are often ignored, to the point that when someone first discovers it they say something along the lines of "OMG guys, found a great camp, don't tell anyone!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
Am I the only one that finds this claim ridiculous? Escha/Reis of all tiers, not just T4/Kirin, Ambuscade, Omen, HTBF, Sinister Reign, Vagary and UNM are all end game content that draw players out of town. Master Trials are a joke to me, but it's there for those who welcome the challenge and want a medieval lightsaber. While not necessarily end game content anymore, Delve, Abyssea, Dynamis and Assault/Salvage all still draw enough interest from players to spread them out across the world, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
It's not. I'm not the best mouthpiece for this particular issue as I haven't had any real interest in returning to the end game grind, but there are plenty of linkshells of varying degrees of success on Asura, some of which are very exclusive/elitist and some of which are welcoming of almost anyone that is at least halfway decently geared, as well as those who are just jumping into things for the first time, learning as they go and welcoming of everyone. Knowing what I do from firsthand experience, I have a very hard time accepting the idea that there is any situation where a player or players/linkshell from another server would have a difficult time mixing in with the existing population. It's very common to see players using /yell to announce their return or ask for help here and receive the help/answers they were seeking. And yes, get trolled in the process, too, but part of me still finds that entertaining (the part that will never grow up).Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Functional, perhaps, but in this context that's as good as saying it's just barely acceptable. The JP community was the only thing keeping Cerberus from collapsing last year and I imagine that situation is probably quite similar for other servers right now as well. The average JP player, in my experience, aims to work together with those around them and is always looking to improve the team as a whole before themselves. The average NA player has dollar signs in their eyes and places themselves above everyone else. "You do you, I'll do me."Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
Yes, but it's the "why?" I mean, you can say it's because of your friends/connections/LS, but again, if everyone you enjoy playing with was on the same page and agreed to transfer you would be able to do everything you did on your old server in addition to things you couldn't, so we come back to the original question: why would you prefer a smaller server?Quote:
Originally Posted by detlef
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01-11-2017, 10:30 AMAfaniaI can't, realistically. You made this entire argument assuming people on smaller servers only ever play with 3 close friends and they just need to text these 3 friends "Hey, let's move to Asura" and they'll all come and have all the connections with them on a new server.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
It doesn't work that way. It's more like, most people have 2-4 different LSs, even the smallest LS that had 6-8 people excluding mules. There's also people that regularly can help with events. If I add all the people in my "endgame connections" together, that's at least 30 people. If I say "Hey, let's move to Asura", they'd just lol and continue to do whatever they usually do(aeonic/vag/whatever).
While it may be possible to convince 2~3 close friends to move(that was probably your case), it's not possible to convince ENTIRE SERVER of 30+ people in endgame connections to move, unless I'm Obama. Not to mention half of the people that i know of doesn't need to move as they have efficient aeonic groups, 6+ mules, ability to clear everything including master trials, are JPs etc, or just not interested in making progress on their characters.
You see, the issue here is complete lack of realistic incentives. You keep saying "everyone just move", then acted as if everyone all benefits greatly if entire server of people moves. The problem is that it simply isn't an incentive for many people. And that's A LOT of people, not just 2 to 3.
Can I convince 2-3 people to move with me? Probably. Can I convince 30+ people including JPs to move? No. And if I can't, then I can't function as I were. I'd have to rebuild my entire connection on different server, and even then it's not the same.
I keep repeating, over and over, I can't kill things on NotRagnarok like I kill things on Ragnarok, at least not as easily. I can't function as I was on any server like you claimed, and I'm feeling like a broken record now.
No amount of communication can translate to realistic incentives that's attractive to my friends, who already does better than 90% of Asurans that can't get into an endgame LS. What kind of incentive do you offer on the table for my NotAsura friends that already have master trial clears, aeonic, multiple mules? Nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
How about I'll give you the contact list of all my friends, see if you can convince them?
Fair enough, at least you realized that you're speaking from a personal pov now, instead of universal truth.Quote:
Of course I considered it. Some people are stubborn, some don't have the luxury of $18 to spend, some just don't care for large populations, which is an unfortunate case for someone paying to play an MMORPG, but I digress. We're all speaking from personal points of view.
While I agree that some people doesn't move because they're stubborn(If someone wants to make progress but unable to due to low pop, and refuse to move, then that person is definitely stubborn), 90% of the people that I've spoke to but refuse to move, have 2 solid reasons:
1) Making progress isn't appealing to them, nor it's their main in game goal. In that case paying $18 is just an illogical choice.
2) They have absolutely zero issue killing the hardest stuff in game and clear everything they want to, in that case paying $18 is just an illogical choice.
So, are you asking SE to redevelop ALL content and merge servers to accommodate larger player base? This is even more unrealistic than asking me to convince 30 people to transfer with me.Quote:
Also, "All the none big 3 server players"? That's an odd way to go about it. 16 servers -> 1 server with a wealth of changes to accommodate the larger population. Future content would need to be designed with the open world. Go take a stroll through the old zones like Meriphataud and La Theine Plataeu, for example, where you can sometimes take a look around and not see a single monster 45+ yalms from you in any direction. That old content can be updated while retaining it's low level progression and questing status. Just add more monsters, lower their respawn timers, tweak existing NMs and/or add new new ones, including drops. Voila. What's old is new again and, if successful, will draw players out of town or away from other content we currently feel pigeonholed into, for lack of a better term.
I'm not WoW's biggest fan, but it did some things exceptionally well, including the open world design where you could accidentally walk into a camp of monsters far above your level if you weren't paying attention. It added a sense of danger/exploration to it that no longer exists in FFXI. In this day and age I probably wouldn't be exaggerating to say there are a lot of players who wouldn't know their way around a lot of the world, such as Western Altepa/Quicksand Caves, Dangruf Wadi/Northern Gustaberg, and so on. That's disappointing for a game with a world of this size. Remember questing the Selbina map? This game needs to give us reasons to get back out to those older, often ignored areas and want to spend our time there. There's one solution to the overcrowding concern.
The matter of fact is, current game content doesn't favor 5k players 2006 style. In 75 days how many people do endgame? How many people just log on and exp their lv 45 jobs? These days most people at lv 99 more or less would attempt escha.
Why would anyone go "explore adoulin areas" in event time while waiting for #2 pop spots to open up>.> Again, this makes no sense to me.Quote:
2006 FFXI didn't have instances either. ;) We would get stuck waiting 1-45 mins in certain cases, or choose to move onto something else while the group inside finished up. The latter is what seems to escape people today. You see the Ambuscade wait time is 10 mins per entry, so why not go do something else until it quiets down? If your go-to CP camp is taken, instead of complaining about it on a message board or taking your ball and going home go explore the Adoulin areas. There are plenty of camps that are often ignored, to the point that when someone first discovers it they say something along the lines of "OMG guys, found a great camp, don't tell anyone!"
Again, you're speaking from a "general population" perspective. And it can't apply to everyone. I haven't done SR/Vagary/UNM/HTBC for months because I don't need stuff from it, and I can do Ambuscade, Escha T1/T3 regardless of the server. There's no reason to choose servers for SR/Vagary/UNM/HTBC/Escha T1/T3 for me because I can do it regardless of the server.Quote:
Am I the only one that finds this claim ridiculous? Escha/Reis of all tiers, not just T4/Kirin, Ambuscade, Omen, HTBF, Sinister Reign, Vagary and UNM are all end game content that draw players out of town. Master Trials are a joke to me, but it's there for those who welcome the challenge and want a medieval lightsaber. While not necessarily end game content anymore, Delve, Abyssea, Dynamis and Assault/Salvage all still draw enough interest from players to spread them out across the world, too.
It's the T4/master trial level of content that may affect my server choice. If I get an invite from a LS that's capable of clear T4/PW2/Master trials on a daily basis and guarantee a party spot in the party, I'd transfer to that server without 2nd thought, even if that server only has 60 people online everyday.
As you can see, I speak strictly about T4/master trials/PW2 sort of things, because it's content that interest me, and I can't just do these things on any server, even if the server has 5000 people. So why are you trying to apply your example on others?
Okay, so basically there are 2 people in this thread who obviously isn't involved in endgame, doesn't understand how endgame community works differently from PUG community, on the same time those people are trying to convince people that does endgame and state their pov as universal facts?Quote:
It's not. I'm not the best mouthpiece for this particular issue as I haven't had any real interest in returning to the end game grind
Let me set things straight. We're not on the same pages here, our playing experience, goals, desires, people that we know, are all too different. We are completely different type of player and we aren't going to reach an agreement in this case. It is fine that we're different, but it is not fine to act as if your situations apply to everyone. What works for YOU, doesn't necessary work for others who has different background, goals, connections etc.
From my perspective, most if not all of your arguments is either extremely unrealistic (Just ask everyone to move!), doesn't understand how things function(you can function as you were with friends transferring with you) or not considering individual in game goal differences. You just imagine how FFXI community works in your head, but realistically, it doesn't work that way. -
01-11-2017, 11:27 AMAfaniaSo one more thing. Even you admitted that some of those Asura LSs are very exclusive/elitist, while others are struggling and learning how to clear contents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
So again, how are you going to convince people that already have highly developed LS/groups on NotAsura that isn't struggling on clearing contents transfer to Asura, only to find themselves either gets rejected, or have to settle with less progressed LSs that's struggling and learning content?
I'm just 100% quoting your own words here, which you clearly made an argument that can be considered as negative for some people. -
01-11-2017, 04:50 PMDiavolohttp://www.reactiongifs.com/r/ksbp.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Afania
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01-11-2017, 07:16 PMJin_UzukiNot again. I already explained you that your definition of endgame is wrong. Even if you think "endgame" only apply to 3 events you are interested in, it's not the proper definition of endgame and you don't know what endgame events I even did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
You simply chose to apply a super-restrictive definition of endgame and then wonder why people don't understand what you are talking about. Of course I ask you why you need #2 Reisenjima so much because you don't need it for the majority of endgame.
In short you are trying to be coy (as well as having bad maths). -
01-11-2017, 10:03 PMNyarlko-_-;;; I am sorry to say, but you fail at reading comprehension. Please, try to read what you quoted from Diavolo again, but without your added emphasis (which also negates your claim to "100% quoting" btw.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Afania
I personally find it offensive that you classify us all as either elitist jerks or struggling noobs. And I'm honestly getting kinda tired of the venom being spewed from your direction for no discernable reason in this thread.
To oversimplify what you quoted: "There are some elitist jerks here, and there are some normal people here, and there are some really nice people here (who might not really know what they are doing.)"
In other words, the same as just about any gathering of more than ~10 human beings. ^^;;
"Some" does not equate to "all" or "most".
Are you trying to assert that Ragnarok only has linkshells chock-full of friendly, altruistic, elite players? If not, then there is nothing that you can really say against what you quoted.
---------------------------
To the OP: In an attempt to get this thread back on track, several of the early posts had a lot of good info on where you can get upgrades with a minimum of help. If you haven't found a good ls to help you, and a server move is a viable option for you, come to Asura and I will help you. ^^ (This is only because Asura is the server I am on and unrelated to any of the argumentative drama which followed the early helpful posts.) -
01-11-2017, 11:37 PMAfaniaI used #2 and T4 as an example to demonstrate a fact that both you didn't consider people that has different need when you made the argument. My intention isn't to claim that every single player on the planet only ever do T4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki
It's been point out over, and over, and over again. You guys made a "general" statement "Asura is the same as NotAsura except more population" "Asura is better than NotAsura because it has population". Which is like saying Japan is the same as China, or China is better than Japan because it has bigger population. And we all know it's far from truth. -
01-11-2017, 11:44 PMAfaniaQuote:
Originally Posted by Nyarlko
First things first, you completely misunderstood my quote wrong. And you also added things I didn't say in my previous post and yet you claim I did that to Diavolo's post >.>
None of the post that I've made say "X, Y, Z players are elitist jerks".
None of the post that I've made say "Anyone on Asura that isn't elitist jerks are noobs"
If anything it's you that's putting words in my mouth lol.
This is my understanding of what Diavolo said: "There are many endgame LS on Asura, some can clear T4/PW2 level of content, but those LS are very hard to get in with high requirements. The other LS is much easier to get in with lower requirements, but they have harder time to clear content at that level"
And my response completely reflects that. He claim that anyone can just transfer to Asura and have a good time, while mentioning top tier LS has higher requirements and hard to get in. So I questioned him why would people already have an endgame LS to kill things easily give up their LS so they can transfer to Asura, then take risks of getting application rejected and have to settle with LS that can't kill these as comfortably? It's equivalent to giving up a high paid job in your small home town in an attempt to move to bigger city so you can apply to Google, lol. Apples and Oranges, nothing wrong if someone choose not to take that risk/move.
None of my post never, ever claim all asura individual players are either elitist jerks or noob. It's 100% directed toward social environment and job market.
And yes, I'm aware there are elitist jerks, noobs, nice people that accomplish things on every sever lol. But when it comes to applying for endgame LSs, it's more than just that. -
01-12-2017, 12:58 AMAfania
@ Diavolo, Jin_Uzuki
Sorry for the 3rd post in a roll and a wall of text. I don't want to come out as some sort of "only I know about endgame, you don't know" jerk attitude. So I'll explain my points as clear as possible and I hope you guys understand my points.
-You guys claimed Asura provides faster character progression, this is 100% correct, in general.
-You guys claimed on NotAsura servers, if your friend is offline or afk, you can't do a thing, this is also 100% correct for people that doesn't play 6+ alts.
-You guys claimed Asura is better than NotAsura servers, this is 100% opinion. And there's a difference between opinion and facts. That's how this pages of drama started, you guys stated opinions as facts.
-You guys claimed Asura is the same as NotAsura servers in terms of social environment, the only difference is population. This is 100% incorrect, and it's equivalent to saying Japan is the same as China except population, or US is the same as Canada except population. And this is the statement that I mainly disagree with.
One of the difference between a 1000 people server and constant immigrant/returning player adding to the population, and a 400 people population that's mostly stagnant, is that on 400 people server, everyone knows people on a higher degree. If you just met a player that came from Siren 2 days ago on Asura, you simply aren't going to know that person as well as someone that you've been playing with for 8 years. So while Asura is a bigger server with more people, it doesn't quite function the same as 400 people server because 70% of population on that bigger server are either new, returning player, or immigrants.
When making parties for really, really hard stuff, or trying a new strategy in endgame, trust is very crucial for success. Sometimes it's as important as correct strategy, good gears, sometimes it's even more important than all of these things. You don't want people doubt leader's strategy, disband after one fail, start drama in /p chat when one member made a mistake, all these things could kill a party even if player skill/gears are good enough. In a party with low trust, these could happen very often.
And sometimes, this kind of trust just takes time to build. In some cases really, really long time.
No, I'm not saying Asura LS can't kill hard stuff(of course they can), I'm not saying Asura PUG is bad nor anything like that. And I certainly know many, many people that didn't do so well on NotAsura ended up doing a whole lot better on Asura because they have jobs endgame LS needs, so they applied to endgame LS and got in.
But for people like me, who doesn't really play jobs that endgame LS often recruits thus unable to get into endgame LSs, and enjoys theorycraft a setup and make my own party to try it, I often really, really, really need high lv of trust, intimacy, and knowledge to player behavior to pull some things off. And it can't done with PUG, or will be hard to do with PUG. In the end that certain accomplishments that I'm aiming for in this game, I simply just can't accomplish on NotRagnarok servers(this isn't just Asura, but also every other server that's not Ragnarok). And it's not because NotRagnarok players suck, but because I don't know NotRagnarok people as well as some of the Ragnarok people, and vice versa.
Is it possible for me to just work harder on Asura or other NotRagnarok servers and accomplish what I want? Maybe. I can lv and gear up an "endgame LS's favorite" jobs such as top tier RUN BLM SCH Idris GEO WHM etc, get into an endgame LS and still do these things with LS.
Or I can just play on those servers for really, really, really long time and build the trust/connections required.
But overall it's still more work, and that's the disadvantage for me. This may not be a disadvantage for many people, since 90% of player just lv up RUN BLM SCH Idris WHM and apply for endgame LS for these things. But for me, as an individual, it is one disadvantage that i can think of.
Of course you can just claim that "how about every friend on your server just move with you". Even if you guys claim 400 people is very small, it's still A LOT of people to move around. In past 2 years I've never seen more than 20 people transfer on the same time. It's always one person transferred, then his best friend transfer too, then 2 more friends in that connection transfer after 5 months. So the argument of "Asura is the best if everyone in your connection just transfer" is only valid on paper. Sorry that'd never happen realistically, at least not in short time.
Back when we started this argument, Diavolo claimed that smaller server has zero advantage. That zero statement is what I disagree with, if he made the claims like "Smaller server has less advantage, but it still has it's own advantage" I'm sure there won't be an argument at all. This has nothing to do with Asura players, nor I want to come out as some sort if Asura hater bashing the server, thinking Asura is all elitist jerk, trolls(although it does have more troll yells....), noobs, that weren't my intention at all.
If anything it's me who find you guys bashing NotAsura servers offensive, lol. In past 1 year I've accomplish some crazy things on Ragnarok that I could never, ever, ever accomplish on NotRagnarok servers because of some Ragnarok people that I know and gave me the opportunity to accomplish these things. And this came from someone who server transferred 8 times, and have played more than one characters on multiple servers with various population size in past 3 years. Claiming smaller server has zero advantage is IMO, flat out wrong if you consider personal circumstances instead of more of a general perspective.
No, I'm not saying Ragnarok > all server for everyone. And I still agree that Asura is generally a better server choice than NotAsura if your goal is to make progression. I simply just disagree with the statement of "Any server that's NotAsura has zero advantage" because a statement like this didn't consider personal circumstances, personal taste, personal preferences.