take rdm out if ffxi

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Originally Posted by Afania

A lot of problem with the usefulness of inundation is that when you have 3 DD spam WS every 5 sec they generally don't SC with each other.

If you hold TP and perform 3 steps then you're losing DPS. If you sacrifice 1 support slot for RDM you lose chaos roll etc.

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Judging by how poor the DMG I've seen some people do, not entirely sure you'd lose DPS performing a 3-step in most parties.

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Originally Posted by Afania

A lot of problem with the usefulness of inundation is that when you have 3 DD spam WS every 5 sec they generally don't SC with each other.

If you hold TP and perform 3 steps then you're losing DPS. If you sacrifice 1 support slot for RDM you lose chaos roll etc.

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Don't think you're losing DPS by doing that unless you're zerging mobs aka not having fun playing the game anyways.

It's been a dps loss in most buffed situations with more than 2 dds since Toau times. It's part of why you saw the rise of melee burning things and the decline of skillchain/mb. The dmg lost by holding tp and often using a weaker ws or 2 is very real. Of course there are some exceptions like say having the last ws being significantly stronger than anything the other 2 players are capable of... especially if it scales with tp well so holding hurts less

In TOAU SC's got resisted and every TOAU mob not flans has 9999 magic resist/evasion, AND skillchains have been buffed(so that they basically never get resisted) and to do more damage since then.

So bringing up TOAU doesn't really hold any relevance to the conversation at hand.

You also don't "hold tp" or "use weaker ws" very often to skillchain anymore with emp/merit ws being so powerful, and damage varies with tp makes sitting on 200 more tp not even matter.

Skillchaining is always a DPS increase.

I'll give you the resistance thing has changed but mobs weren't super resistant as you claim. Melees just had poor macc. I magic bursted just as well on aht urghan zones as I had done before in cop/zilart. And that was where the bulk of the dmg from sc/mb setups came from. Those setups didn't fall by the wayside because they got worse (except against greaters and that was mostly nuking smart) but because melee burns got better. Partly because lolibri were so squishy but even other targets became easier as we as a community got better at pushing more dmg and understanding things like pdif and haste caps and such. And since the skillchain dmg wasn't ever that significant people just used their most powerful ws

And yes when talking about 3 dds you will definitely have to hold tp unless you super unbuffed. And doing a 3 step is almost guaranteed going to keep you from using your absolute strongest ws unless you have things setup just right. Having more strong ws doesn't play into that at all. And not all ws have dmg varies with tp and even the ones that their scaling is such that generally at lower tps they aren't spectacular and at higher they don't scale that great so it still matters some

Also I didn't say skillchaining. I said 3 stepping with 3 dds (well technically I said more than 2 but 4 is even worse) as was being discussed. It in fact makes a huge difference given the time wait between steps and the time it takes to build tp

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Don't think you're losing DPS by doing that unless you're zerging mobs aka not having fun playing the game anyways.

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How long have you been enjoying starting drama on forum by claiming everything is "not having fun playing the game"?

I personally don't see a logical relationship between "zerging" and "not having fun". This applies to other thread regarding certain weapon combinations improving DPS.

tl;dr: People actually can have fun zerging and do more dmg.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Skillchaining is always a DPS increase.

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With 2 DD yes, with 3 DD hardly, with 4 DD I just don't see it. And since this is RDM discussion I'd like to kindly remind people it's also costing a slot of 1 support(or 1 DD) for skillchain increase.

Zerging = bringing fully buffed melee DD"s and mashing you WS button over and over until the mob dies in 30-60 seconds.
You ignore the mobs mechanics, you ignore skillchains, you ignore magic bursts. You basically ignore 100% of the games combat mechanics.

Aka, not fun.

With 2 DD's skillchaining is always dps increase, I have no idea for 3 but I wonder if you could do samurai skillchaining with 2 other DD's so that every time the other DD's ws the samurai can close it.

A RDM + melee can just skillchain with each other as well.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Aka, not fun.

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Speak for yourself.

If you have fun mashing your WS button and killing bosses in 30-60s ignoring every battle mechanic in the game idk what to say.

Maybe go back in time and play during embrava + PD zergs? Those things were nerfed because fighting things while invul and mashing your WS key wasn't fun for the majority of the player base and went against the developers vision of the game.

90% of the time zerging isn't about ignoring everything in the game but instead using everything you got to take dps to the max while doing what you can to ensure you survive what the mob is doing to you.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Aka, not fun.

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This is just your subjective opinion. And game mechanics discussion isn't about how YOU feel what makes the game fun or not.

You repeatedly use "FUN" in a game mechanics discussion on every forum in every thread, why?

From MY subjective opinion, I find zerging and WS at 1000 TP is more fun due to DPS job can compete with each other. And DDs having parse war against each other is the only competitive element in this game as it stands. Since this game has no PVP, nor HNM camping anymore, the it's the only competitive element in game. And some players such as myself find competitive element in a video game fun.

That being said, just because I find zerging more fun, I don't use it as a reason to agree/disagree against a game design mechanics.

At this point zerging with super buffed 5 DD generates more DPS than 2 DPS SCing in many situations. I advocate such setup not because I personally find fun, but because it's mathematically stronger.

Even if you want to advocate 2 DD SCing with each other because YOU think it's fun, it doesn't really apply to everyone because it's YOUR personal opinion.

tl;dr, your argument about inundation being very useful is invalid. It has some uses in game, but not all the time. And it's not enough to make RDM less niche than it currently is.

Since you guys seem to understand Inundation, I've got a question for you. :D

How does it interact w/ pets? Do pets count at all towards the bonus? If they do, would a jug pet + avatar count as 2x types or as 1x? I know that some BST pets can use different damage types for readys, would that count? PUP autos are capable of doing both melee and ranged ws, how do those work out? If you have two autos: one does melee ws + one does ranged ws = ?

How about physical blue magic + chain affinity?

Been wondering for a while, but never run into any testing on these questions, and not exactly sure how to test them solo. ^^;;

If pets are included for Inundation bonus, and especially if their different damage type attacks count separately, then that opens up a new niche for RDM usage at least. ^^

Pets definitely do count that was pretty easy to test. Not sure on the rest though

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Originally Posted by Afania

And it's not enough to make RDM less niche than it currently is.

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First of all, you need to chill out and stop being so argumentative in all your posts.

The problem is that geo/blu need to be nerfed to the ground and BLM needs to not hold the monopoly on nuking by being 50% stronger than any other nuker in the game.

Bard/RDM/COR all have pretty balanced buffing/debuffing with other strengths/weakness to make up for things they lack or for having weaker debuffs/buffs(example: rdm isnt as strong as a cor or brd at buffing but has potentially useful debuffs and can magic burst/heal better than brd or cor)

Then geo comes along and can just MB for hundreds of thousands of damage, can heal almost as well as a RDM and can also dia2/slow/para/silence/addle/distract1 while having the STRONGEST UNDISPELLABLE BUFFS IN THE GAME. Mind blowing, really.

By the way, why can't we accession haste2/refresh3 yet?

We also have blue mage, which can, for some unknown reason, self cap it's own magic haste, have nearly as much mitigation as a tank(while in full dd set up, don't give me that "lol you cant be a tank and dd at same time" stuff I see said everywhere) You give up nothing setting barrier tusk + cocoon + MG and while doing all this it can also do as much damage as a real DD. Mighty guard needs to not exist, and there's absolutely no reason this job should have haste2.

Melee DD's are pretty balanced, none of them does 50% MORE damage than another, I have no idea why BLM is allowed to just do 50% more damage than any other nuker and have a complete monopoly on the role, it's really awful.

I miss 75 cap where I could nuke as hard as BLM's on my SCH.

WHM healing over 50% stronger than a RDM isn't as much of a problem as BLM nuking over 50% harder because you can't heal a mob to death.

Basically, geo/blu need to be nerfed to the ground and brought back to reality and other nukers need to be buffed to be ~10-30% below BLM(SCH should be within 5-10% and RDM should be within 20-30%) so that when you want a nuker you don't automatically go "oh blm!".

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

SCH should be within 5-10%

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SCH Doesn't need any buff at all, they are already one of the best soloer's, DoT/Regeners, Self Skillchainers and more making them almost as good as BLM would be ridiculous. BLU/SCH/GEO all need to be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

First of all, you need to chill out and stop being so argumentative in all your posts.

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It seems that you have an issue with me, and I'll explain why(despite it's off topic kinda).I am a very logical person, and I value logic, objective pov, math, numbers in a discussion.

That's why whenever I see people using arguments in a discussion that's not based on numbers, logic, math instead they used personal preferences, I call them out.

I may sound argumentative but that's because if you're type of person that constantly use personal preferences in a discussion there will be conflicts as we're not on the same page to begin with. On the other hand if you always use math, numbers and logic in a discussion then I will agree with you.

I also have to point out, most of my posts are pretty chill, as I rarely do personal attack unless someone else start it first.

The issue isn't just me being argumentative, but also because you constantly use your subjective opinion in a discussion over and over and over. If you like to do that then we may as well not have a discussion about anything since we're not even on the same page to begin with.

I'm only argumentative in a few discussions(mostly when someone started using emotional/none objective opinion in a discussion), and only against a few posters(mostly against people with tendency to present opinions based on personal preferences). I actually agree with a lot of people on forums, it's just that when I agree with people I don't post, whenever I post I usually post for the purpose of calling people out for using personal preferences in a discussion. Thus giving you the impression that I'm "argumentative". I actually didn't call you out in a lot of your posts when you didn't use personal preferences in a discussion.

If you don't like someone calling you out then stop using personal preferences in a discussion.

Mbs for hundreds of thousands of dmg in a game where the dmg cap is 99,999. Oh lordy that is some funny stuff. Especially after saying another job has a monopoly on nuking. Which is true but that completely takes away from any argument for geo being a good nuker.

And don't pretend like you meant over the course of multiple mbs because if we using that standard so can my nin. But being less silly (not that nin can't under right circumstances nuke pretty hard) outside of ras rdm can nuke just as well as geo with same buffs/debuffs. Just geo comes with some aoe buffs/debuffs that help. But side by side same pt they will do similarly. As can sch but it also comes along with the ability to self skillchain. For that matter smn can hit even higher numbers than pretty much anyone except death blms but they run into accuracy problems on higher content

Geos are very strong this is well established fact. But it's 99.9% because of it's geomancy.

As far as why blm does so much more compared to other nukers when other DDs are closer. It's probably because we have multiple jobs that are strictly melee DDs of different varieties. Blm is the only job that actually specializes and focuses on magic dmg dealing. To put it another way blm is significantly worse at every other bit of mage work than every other mage. Similarly whm is by a far margin the best healer... it's also the worst nuker and on the low end of buffing/debuffing

As far as accension refresh III is concerned it's because there is this crazy idea that sch should be the most versatile with it's own job ability and as such they should be able to cast every accensionable spell. As far as haste II... because SE thinks targeted AoE haste is too powerful and so no job gets it. The argument is kind of bunk no since a lot of that fear came from outside players being able to easily keep an alliance hasted and well pretty much every fight that matters restricts outside players from doing anything. Of course even then Haste II specifically would fall under the whole sch main thing.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

I miss 75 cap where I could nuke as hard as BLM's on my SCH.

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I'm sure your 75 SCH couldn't invalidate and break the entire SC mechanic as well solo most of the end game content, tho'.

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Originally Posted by Jin_Uzuki

I'm sure your 75 SCH couldn't invalidate and break the entire SC mechanic as well solo most of the end game content, tho'.

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Yeah that is kind of silly, but I don't think anything about SCH is overpowered. Blue mage and geo literally break the game in half, especially geo. Every 135+ boss seems balanced around geo.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Yeah that is kind of silly, but I don't think anything about SCH is overpowered. Blue mage and geo literally break the game in half, especially geo. Every 135+ boss seems balanced around geo.

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More like every 135+ boss was never balanced to begin with. >_<;; Seems to me that devs just see GEO like duct tape to patch the holes in the combat system caused by extreme lvl diffs.

With their recent statement on how they plan to "address" the problems that bard faces, (which is by adding more AllSongs+ gear rather than make any actual changes to any of the problem mechanics,) I rather doubt that they'd be willing to make any of the necessary changes for anyone to reach support role parity with GEO. I'm betting it's related to the difficulty shift if BRD/RDM/COR were buffed to true competitiveness with GEO, (since they stack with each other for the most part,) which would require even more changes to prevent trivializing all current content, and their inability/unwillingness to devote that much dev time to this type of issue.

That's why those jobs don't need buffs(Cor buffs are also incredibly strong already), they just need to nerf geo/idris to the ground.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

That's why those jobs don't need buffs(Cor buffs are also incredibly strong already), they just need to nerf geo/idris to the ground.

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That does nothing to solve any problems and would only make the highest clvl stuff impossible to complete.

COR buffs are strong, but a lot of it's strength lies in that many rolls offer unique buffs like DA, STP, and regain, so it avoids a lot of the overlap that RDM/BRD have to deal with (and the basic rolls like atk+ are already percentage based.) RDM and BRD most definitely need buffs though. An across the board macc bonus (and possibly potency boost as well) to enfeebles would help both jobs, but especially RDM. It feels bad that it's signature role of debuffer has fallen to the wayside due to how unreliable and ineffective debuffing is perceived nowadays when compared to GEO's unresistible/undispellable debuffs. BRD is still stuck in '75 days and basically needs an overhaul. ._.;;

Uniqueness is fine between jobs/roles, but there should be a semblance of parity between them as well. I say buff the other supports up to GEO's effective level, then institute combined buff caps only if absolutely necessary to prevent everything from going total easy-mode.

Another reason why rdms role as debuffer has fallen is things like one of the most important/powerful thing helping dds do dmg now is large amounts of -def. But here's the thing none of the enhance enfeebling gear or jas help dia in the slightest to the point a cor/rdm can give a better dia then a fully merited gear rdm. And then there is frailty which is much stronger to begin with an actually effected by gear and jas. Then there is how saboteur is half power against nms... but brd and cor jas that enhance their debuffs are full power so even if you do land them and even if they were as powerful to start they wont be with ja usage.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlko

RDM and BRD most definitely need buffs though. An across the board macc bonus (and possibly potency boost as well) to enfeebles would help both jobs, but especially RDM. It feels bad that it's signature role of debuffer has fallen to the wayside

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The thing is RDM debuffs don't actually stop the mob from killing you.
Slow and para(when you can land) are "nice", but they don't actually keep you alive, because enemies most damaging attacks are all TP moves now, and for a long time now really. Slow and para used to keep you alive because of how we shadow tanked things, but that hasn't been the case for so long.

Give RDM -TP gain/drain DOT and an addle that works on mob TP moves and call it a day.

Oh, also, RDM's new 1 hour should be a 3-10m cooldown, not 1 hour.

RDM's only useful thing right now is haste2(and for some unknown reason bluemage gets this) but it isn't even that great especially when bringing a summoner is 1000x better for haste2 because it's easier to apply it on summoner, summoner actually does good damage(especially MB) AND has insane buffs like TP bonus and 25% DA.

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Another reason why rdms role as debuffer has fallen is things like one of the most important/powerful thing helping dds do dmg now is large amounts of -def. But here's the thing none of the enhance enfeebling gear or jas help dia in the slightest to the point a cor/rdm can give a better dia then a fully merited gear rdm. And then there is frailty which is much stronger to begin with an actually effected by gear and jas. Then there is how saboteur is half power against nms... but brd and cor jas that enhance their debuffs are full power so even if you do land them and even if they were as powerful to start they wont be with ja usage.

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Huh wtf..

Distract III is extremely powerful and it's potency is effected by Enfeebling Magic Skill, some amount of MND and gets boosted by +Enfeebling gear along with Frazzle III. Sab gets a half effect but it still puts their potency at 150~160 evasion down. The problem is that those spells can be resisted and will be on things where you ~need~ them to land. GEO's bubbles are unresistable and thus always take effect no matter how powerful the enemy is. Lately SE's been creating content with ridiculous amounts of magic evasion to the point we need Idris Langour just to have a snowballs chance in hell of landing a spell outside of Magic Burst.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Huh wtf..

Distract III is extremely powerful and it's potency is effected by Enfeebling Magic Skill, some amount of MND and gets boosted by +Enfeebling gear along with Frazzle III. Sab gets a half effect but it still puts their potency at 150~160 evasion down. The problem is that those spells can be resisted and will be on things where you ~need~ them to land. GEO's bubbles are unresistable and thus always take effect no matter how powerful the enemy is. Lately SE's been creating content with ridiculous amounts of magic evasion to the point we need Idris Langour just to have a snowballs chance in hell of landing a spell outside of Magic Burst.

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Huh wtf...

Did you even read what I said. Never mentioned those debuffs, mnd or enfeebling skill. You could make rdm debuffs completely unresistable and the entire thing you quoted still stands.... hell half of it was talking about a unresistable debuff <.<. I'm hoping you just misquoted if not read before you argue

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Originally Posted by Urmom

Huh wtf...

Did you even read what I said. Never mentioned those debuffs, mnd or enfeebling skill. You could make rdm debuffs completely unresistable and the entire thing you quoted still stands.... hell half of it was talking about a unresistable debuff <.<. I'm hoping you just misquoted if not read before you argue

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Don't worry, he didn't even get the correct value on distract with sabo, it isn't effected by frazzle either. I have tested it an personally got over 200 with sabo. You just need more MND after your skill cap.

At any rate rdm debuffs are utterly useless outside of distract/frazzle, but nobody is taking a rdm for either of those. You need a geo to land those spells in the first place so why even take a rdm?

Cor/rdm gets a stronger dia than a Dia III Rdm
Geo needs no help landing spells because bubbles cannot be resisted.
Para/Slow do nothing to change a fight, everything is AoE TP move. Furthermore if you look into the values of para/slow II, they are hardly worth the merits.
Addle II caps out at -50 m. acc, which is 15 lower than a 900 skill geo, 25 lower than dunna and a whopping 75 lower than Idris.
Phalanx 1/2 caps are so low they don't make enough difference to bring a rdm, especially when SE was so stupid they gave phalanx out to run, pld, smn, blu
Rdm highest regen is Regen 2, useless unless self buffing since sch, run, and whm all get higher.
Poison 2, Dia 3, and Bio 3 DoT are so pathetically weak they do literally nothing.
Break is useless in endgame without elemental seal, and since rdm is only single target break that is even more useless.
Blind and Blind 2 are both laughable.
Sch and blm both get myrkr, which is massive mp and puts rdm refresh useless with all the ethers, elixir and mana powers.
Dispel gets resisted without a geo.....
Let's not forget the +45 stat (str, dex, mnd, etc) geo is capable with bubbles


Literally the only gain to having a rdm in a party now is Frazzle, Distract, and Inundation. Distract/Frazzle can both be resisted with ease and geo can do it anyway so why bring a rdm for it. Nobody is bringing a rdm along for Inundation only, that is just stupid, raise nm hp so we can have inundation? I think not.

Without making an overhaul on rdm enhancing and/or enfeebling magic there is no rdm in endgame without having every piece of max gear you can imagine and a group of friends willing to take you on rdm. There isn't anything worth taking a rdm for in endgame. That is coming from a murg/sequence rdm. There is no point in it, even if you are so good and have such perfect gear that you can out parse anyone. People will still ignore you because rdm does not have any redeeming qualities in this game right now.

Yeah, it comes down to RDM's role not being filled unless it has a geo(as you said).
Which is disgusting. Nerf geo to the ground and rebalance the game so that we don't need a geo to play the damn game.
It's completely absurd that a RDM cannot do it's main role of enfeebler without a geo to give enough macc to actually land things, what were they even thinking?

RDM NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO DO IT'S MASTER ENFEEBLER ROLE. Smite let's DRK do it's damage role, last resort helps a ton, souleater helps a bunch. What does RDM have to help it enfeeble? Nothing.

Stymie should be passive.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Yeah, it comes down to RDM's role not being filled unless it has a geo(as you said).
Which is disgusting. Nerf geo to the ground and rebalance the game so that we don't need a geo to play the damn game.
It's completely absurd that a RDM cannot do it's main role of enfeebler without a geo to give enough macc to actually land things, what were they even thinking?

RDM NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO DO IT'S MASTER ENFEEBLER ROLE. Smite let's DRK do it's damage role, last resort helps a ton, souleater helps a bunch. What does RDM have to help it enfeeble? Nothing.

Stymie should be passive.

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I think stymie being passive might actually help rdm if we could focus more on enfeeble skill/MND to increase potency. With a few minor adjustments on enfeeble spells that would actually fix rdm.
Drk however almost never uses souleater anymore. That is suicidal since day one and even more so after abyssea killed the need to know how to cure parties.