The importance of job points

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

The thing is, there are 4 bat camps in Outer Ra'Kaznar, and each can only really accommodate 1 person. If my Ra'Kaznar camp becomes popular, I get crowded out. I'm not really under a moral obligation to share information that harms me.

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Like nobody on your server already noticed you soloing millions of bristlehair bats lol. They probably call you Batman behind your back!

:p

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I'm a bit of a job points fiend and I don't mind farming them. On MNK, I have 58 job points spent and 154 in the bank ready for use. On WHM I have 2 and on THF I have 3. I soloed most of my MNK job points because a good job points party is rare. I think if I had any desire for any other kind of job points, I'd be sunk.

I should hope that if there are spells and job traits unlockable, then at the least they'd stop this nonsense of having to be on the job to get capacity points for it.

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The concept of job points is meant to be like you are leveling a specific job past level 99 and due to this we are not considering to make it so you can save up job points on a separate job than the one you would like to use them on.

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

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Originally Posted by GoltanaBuukki

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

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My LS has brought PUP to incursion. The only job that hasn't been brought is BST, and that's because pretty much no one in my LS plays it. If your LS isn't allowing you to bring those jobs... tell them to stop being di*ks. Now if you are attempting high level incursion i can see not bringing those jobs.... but that isn't a valid argument against as that level of incursion is for the trophy of saying look at what we accomplished, it's not for CP farming.

And as to your complaint of how obtaining Job Points is considerably worse than leveling up traditionally.... every game I've played where there was a soft cap (cuz that's pretty much what this is) it gets ridiculously hard to go up even one level. We are at the pinnacle of levels, it shouldn't be easy to go up higher. If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.

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Originally Posted by GoltanaBuukki

Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting. Capacity Points aren't rewarded as often as they should, and as much as they should. You can repeat certain Seeker's of Adoulin fights, and you are rewarded 20,000 Bayld. You can do certain BCNMs and are rewarded thousands of gil for a 2min fight. There are even Besieged events that, although extremely brief, yield upwards of 15,000 EXP and scaled Imperial Standing. VW provides significant EXP bonuses, as well as cruor, for just beating a monster halfway dead. Why is there no event currently that adds a significant amount of CP? Or better yet, why don't all events that generate some in-game currency have a CP tag attached to it as well?

People are complaining about having to earn these Job Points, and you are claiming its supposed to be like levelling beyond 99. You expect all of these jobs to solo their points if they are not accepted as the "optimal" job? Its ludicrous. No player in their right mind would ever bring a BST or PUP to incursion, and currently, thats the best event for CP.

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I remember in the early days of Adoulin, people did a lot of Delve without the goal of killing the boss or even the lesser NMs, and people went in solely to farm plasm. Are the Incursion runs you're doing leaving out jobs like Puppetmaster because they have an eye on beating the boss? I haven't done much Incursion (maybe 3 runs since it came out) so I'm not super familiar with the process, but as I recall the regular mobs died pretty quickly and gave a decent amount of capacity points. Is there a bonus in capacity points for killing the NMs and clearing the zone? Have you (or has anyone) clocked the rate of capacity point gain if you go into Incursion solely for the purpose of job points, with no intention of fighting any NMs?

But really guys, you shouldn't get bent out of shape over this. The improvements are fairly minor and you can live without. Just because something exists doesn't mean you must have it.

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Originally Posted by Stompa

Like nobody on your server already noticed you soloing millions of bristlehair bats lol. They probably call you Batman behind your back!

:p

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Well there is one fella, named Deadlier, who I'm sure notices. We run into each other a lot. He's working on an Ergon weapon of some sort and I think he's farming the reives for HP Bayld. I get a lot of it incidentally and sell it to him at a discount as thanks for him helping with those annoying reives.

I'm with Protey, XP/Merits are entirely too easy. however, since their only real use is pop items for Ouryu as an example I'm fine with that. But I like having a system again where it's work but your reward-the job point-is guaranteed, instead of luck-based like getting a good augmented JSE cape from incursion. That said, the job point rewards are EXTREMELY lackluster compared to the work involved in getting them. Both the point categories themselves and the gifts shown for cumulative points.

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Originally Posted by Protey

If it were up to me, it would be even more difficult.

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Here's my problem with the entire system however, it's not difficult, it's boring and grindy. I find entertainment in difficulty, I love when things are hard enough to encourage me to think, form new strategies, and persevere through obstacles, in order to overcome them all and achieve my goals. This isn't difficult, it's rather the opposite, I can kill mobs in Dho Gates for hours on end without ever feeling any sort of challenge, rather I feel as though the only thing being challenged is my patience on how long I can sit in one spot fighting similar things before I smash my keyboard through my monitor. It feels like a waste of time, mindless and pointless in every way to me that doesn't truly make me stronger except via artificial stats, and that's a method of growth I truly hate in games quite frankly. I'll contend it's time taking, that it's a grind, but not that it's difficult, as time taken to achieve something and difficulty are very separate things to me.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Well there is one fella, named Deadlier, who I'm sure notices. We run into each other a lot. He's working on an Ergon weapon of some sort and I think he's farming the reives for HP Bayld. I get a lot of it incidentally and sell it to him at a discount as thanks for him helping with those annoying reives.

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Lol I was only joking anyway. I know how it is when you find a nice secluded camp, you always hope it won't get congested in the future. Also I have great admiration for you, because of the enormous amount of Job Points you solo'd. Thats like what my Japanese friend calls a "Strong Challenger!"

Its cool that you give that guy a discount on the Happy Baylds too. I am giving mine away for free now to one of my best friends coz she has got the GEO addiction on /OCDmode lol.

On the other posters comments re; CAP content/jobs like pup etc. it is true that I am soloing most of my CAP on Puppetmaster. My friend group got the capes they wanted a while ago and stopped doing Incursion. I never got my Pup cape or War cape, but I got some uber Sch capes for the job I only play when I absolutely have to lol.

And I don't do WoE anymore, for CAP or anything else. Long story. Go there, let us not.

But SE have announced that they are adding CAP to other content, so you will not be so restricted to the Incursion factor. That is good news, although I don't mind grinding solo CAP on Pup, because it is my main job for the simple reason that I feel happy when I play it lol. So playing it for however many hours of CAP grind is fine by me, but it will be nice to be able to do various CAP content, just to stop me going /tunnelvision and a bit weird.

I actually just did an Incursion run specifically for job points. I got about 18,322 in 45 minutes. Might've gotten more but I forgot to use my Mecistopins Mantle or Capacity Ring until halfway through. They come at about the same rate as I get them solo in Outer Ra'Kaznar. Also we had a lot of links, which were slept.... but then people split off and attacked different mobs anyway.

I feel like they come in at about the same rate as Aht Urghan era merits, or exceptional pre-75 levelling parties in the old days. So it's fine by me really. I think people are just spoiled by Abyssea, where they can just take a nap and get as much XP and merits as they want while someone else AOE kills monsters.

It also feels like people are putting out some contradictory complaints here. On the one hand they're like "This isn't fair now I need job points to play my job but it's too hard to get job points on my job!" and on the other it's like "Job points are so hard to get and the rewards from them so awful and not worth the effort." The former complaint I think is unfounded because the boosts, while nice, are not make-or-break for any job. If you're not getting invites it's because those jobs are unpopular and you don't have the reputation to get invited in spite of that. The latter complaint is silly because if you think that job points aren't worth the effort, the obvious solution is to not do them.

Grinding? In an MMO? Who would have thought.

Job points take longer than merits because merits 1) are not fixed, they can be removed and changed whilst job points are per anent. 2) merits are expended for level caps, unlocking weapon skills, phantom gems.

Job points are a decent mid-long term growth which can't be capped in 30min. It takes about a week of grinding in CP parties at 3-4 hours per day to get 50-70CP, or about as long as it took to get a job from 1-75 back before abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Grinding? In an MMO? Who would have thought.

Job points take longer than merits because merits 1) are not fixed, they can be removed and changed whilst job points are per anent. 2) merits are expended for level caps, unlocking weapon skills, phantom gems.

Job points are a decent mid-long term growth which can't be capped in 30min. It takes about a week of grinding in CP parties at 3-4 hours per day to get 50-70CP, or about as long as it took to get a job from 1-75 back before abyssea.

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i think you mean 50-70 JP, lol.

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

The concept of job points is meant to be like you are leveling a specific job past level 99 and due to this we are not considering to make it so you can save up job points on a separate job than the one you would like to use them on.

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This tickles me, I distinctly remember when SE where asked about job balancing Job Points where mentioned. "we will be using the job point system to continue to balance the jobs"

But rather than say making DRK equal to monk, a Dark has to find a cap point party so already thats twice the work a monk has to do because everyone wants a monk for DD, then they have to build those points everyday over time hoping to get more invites in the hope of getting close to a monk without any job points.

So basicly do 10x the work to be equal, Is this really working as intended? This is really job balancing? lol

Im just gad im the monk in that situation, and don't ever see myself using the "lesser" jobs now at all.

Im not saying the whole system is terrible, but to make someone work very hard to just be mediocre at a job is crazy, either scrap the job or make the lesser jobs on par before the cap points/gifts system calculations

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

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Originally Posted by DerianX

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

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Oh please no........

Art.

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Originally Posted by DerianX

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

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Originally Posted by Artharian

Oh please no........

Art.

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Oh jeeze, please no....

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Originally Posted by DerianX

Maybe we'll get lucky and they'll make reforged Empyrean be Su2. ;)

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What the hell would be "lucky" about that?

it'll probably be HMPs, riftcinders, etc. to reforge empyrean armor. would bring back the market for those items (which would be nice for those wanting to make 99 dardaubla)

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Originally Posted by Protey

it'll probably be HMPs, riftcinders, etc. to reforge empyrean armor. would bring back the market for those items (which would be nice for those wanting to make 99 dardaubla)

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???

There's already plenty of market for them. One of the big issues of the game today is that the market demand outstrips supply.

I feel bad for whoever is on whm or other support jobs that solo their jp farming. It must take them forever to max out a category. :(

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Originally Posted by Camiie

What the hell would be "lucky" about that?

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Sadomasochism for the win!

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

I feel bad for whoever is on whm or other support jobs that solo their jp farming. It must take them forever to max out a category. :(

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Those jobs can get JP without the need to solo anyways, they always get invite to incursion/CP pt/delve pt.

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Originally Posted by Afania

Those jobs can get JP without the need to solo anyways, they always get invite to incursion/CP pt/delve pt.

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The point though is its very lopsided toward a few jobs getting relatively easy points and other jobs stranded in solo-town.

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Originally Posted by Jile

The point though is its very lopsided toward a few jobs getting relatively easy points and other jobs stranded in solo-town.

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no it's not. go do incursion, any job is acceptable to go to that unless you are doing the high levels. Go shout for a PUG incursion if for some reason your LS leaders are a**holes and won't let you come on BST, PUP, or w/e.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

???

There's already plenty of market for them. One of the big issues of the game today is that the market demand outstrips supply.

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There is not "plenty of market" for them. About the only market for them is Dardaublas. People don't make the other empyreans because those weapons suck. And people don't go above 90 on ochain either. Yes, you'll find one or two nutbars out there that really want to take those weapons to 119, but they would have a better weapon spending less effort elsewhere. Those one or two people can hardly be considered "plenty of market".

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

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Originally Posted by YosemiteYogorockBlondelle

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

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I'm actually really close to finishing all my gifts, so I'm kind of surprised to say I'm okay with it. I'm just worried how many points will be needed for these new abilities/spells in the future.

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Originally Posted by YosemiteYogorockBlondelle

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

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It sucks because so far I haven't been able to make any meaningful progress with job points. Finding a JP party or people to join one is pretty much impossible in my experience. Soloing them is extremely slow and tedious even with an ongoing campaign, decent cape, and ring. For me, the community just isn't there to support this type of content. It might have been fine when there were 3k people on the server but now that it's between 500 and 800 with most of those being afk, it just doesn't work unless you have 5 buddies who are always on.

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Originally Posted by YosemiteYogorockBlondelle

So I was just wondering, how is everyone liking the new gift system using spent job points? I wonder what they would have done if they had implemented into the merit system before job points even existed?

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Given there seem to be so many people with schedule's like mine, where I come on to do Dynamis and perhaps a bcnm or two and that's about the extent of my available playtime - I'll have to see how this progresses over the next few years it takes me to max out a job. If I still played like I did in 2005 I'd be done with a job or two by now but far too many people have placed life over the game, like myself and won't get full benefit from this 'gift' for a long, long time.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

It sucks because so far I haven't been able to make any meaningful progress with job points. Finding a JP party or people to join one is pretty much impossible in my experience. Soloing them is extremely slow and tedious even with an ongoing campaign, decent cape, and ring. For me, the community just isn't there to support this type of content. It might have been fine when there were 3k people on the server but now that it's between 500 and 800 with most of those being afk, it just doesn't work unless you have 5 buddies who are always on.

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This is my experience as well. I have actually been going out of my way to farm JP on BST and I think I have 6 so far? And that is with spending like 1/2 of my playtime on JP farming. Granted I don't play much (probably because solo grinding JP is boring... but also some family busyness)... but still. They need to add more JP to more content because it's BS trying to get them on a job no one wants to invite to anything... which just makes the job suck even more.

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Originally Posted by Protey

no it's not. go do incursion, any job is acceptable to go to that unless you are doing the high levels. Go shout for a PUG incursion if for some reason your LS leaders are a**holes and won't let you come on BST, PUP, or w/e.

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Yep. That's 90% of this game's problem right there - a$$holes who go out of their to discriminate against others based on what job they choose to play. People shouldn't confuse actual game issues with player attitudes because that's something SE can't fix.

I am sorry... but yeah bst "can" do incursion but I don't think someone is being an a-hole if they would rather take a DD that does 2-4 times as much damage. IT IS A GAME ISSUE. All DDs should be able to put out comparable levels of damage one way or another. Even if say BST was really good in unbuffed situations and crappy in buffed situations (they could easily do this by massively boosting pets, which don't get buffs) it would be more fair than it is now where bst is pretty much never better unless you want to tickle something to death with a low chance of getting hurt.

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Originally Posted by Dale

Yep. That's 90% of this game's problem right there - a$$holes who go out of their to discriminate against others based on what job they choose to play. People shouldn't confuse actual game issues with player attitudes because that's something SE can't fix.

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Those are player attitudes that are based on mathematics, and that's something only SE can fix.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Those are player attitudes that are based on mathematics, and that's something only SE can fix.

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Yes and no. While the math may support leaving a BST /sitting in Jeuno twiddling their thumbs people could always invite anyone and have some fun instead.

....and then I step back into reality and realize that's not going to happen outside my social linkshell lol. Damage>sociability is the reality of XI.

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Originally Posted by Jile

Yes and no. While the math may support leaving a BST /sitting in Jeuno twiddling their thumbs people could always invite anyone and have some fun instead.

....and then I step back into reality and realize that's not going to happen outside my social linkshell lol. Damage>sociability is the reality of XI.

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eh, to be fair, it's not really a lot of fun sucking either. I'd like my job to be within striking distance of other jobs with the same function.

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Except that the grind of obtaining Job points is considerably WORSE than levelling up traditionally, or even meritting.

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Some people have complained about how fast and easy it is to level up now; so rather than slow that down directly, they make their new advancement system grindy to compensate. Not necessarily saying that CP aren't too slow, but EXP is extremely fast these days. capaicty points should take longer to earn than EXP, although they do perhaps take too much longer. The good news is that as you gain more, future job points will be earned a bit more quickly due to the cumulative capacity point bonuses you earn.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Some people have complained about how fast and easy it is to level up now; so rather than slow that down directly, they make their new advancement system grindy to compensate. Not necessarily saying that CP aren't too slow, but EXP is extremely fast these days. capaicty points should take longer to earn than EXP, although they do perhaps take too much longer. The good news is that as you gain more, future job points will be earned a bit more quickly due to the cumulative capacity point bonuses you earn.

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Which means that jobs that are already slow to earn CP will get it even slower by comparison! Gifts only serve to widen the disparity. The gift that keeps on taking.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Which means that jobs that are already slow to earn CP will get it even slower by comparison! Gifts only serve to widen the disparity. The gift that keeps on taking.

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That's a defect of job design not a defect of gifts or job points. The jobs that are slow to earn CP are slow to earn EXP as well. Should harder-to-level jobs require less EXP to level up? No, they should balance the jobs better so that in a solo situation they can still perform acceptably. FFXIV solves this problem for healers with Cleric Stance, which weakens healing spells to boost damage output. Trust should have in theory eliminated this soloing disparity, but it doesn't because the DPS trusts are woefully inadequate, something that SE needs to address. (I believe afflatus solace and misery were intended to be something similar to a cleric stance / healer stance thing, but it really falls flat as misery's boost to damage spells is pretty paltry and dependent on a number that changes frequently)

If you form a party for job points, all these problems go out the window anyway. Everyone in your party is earning them at the same rate, ignoring gifts. Remember how we used to get EXP? in a party. You can still do that with CP, you know. The job growth disparity only exists while playing solo.

Farming in a party is a lot faster, and so many people beg for old-school EXP parties and stuff. Yet despite this begging, not a lot of people do it when it's totally possible. I did a party in Woh Gates and it was several orders of magnitude faster than soloing, especially for the jobs that are not as good at soloing.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you form a party for job points, all these problems go out the window anyway. Everyone in your party is earning them at the same rate, ignoring gifts. Remember how we used to get EXP? in a party. You can still do that with CP, you know. The job growth disparity only exists while playing solo.

Farming in a party is a lot faster, and so many people beg for old-school EXP parties and stuff. Yet despite this begging, not a lot of people do it when it's totally possible. I did a party in Woh Gates and it was several orders of magnitude faster than soloing, especially for the jobs that are not as good at soloing.

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You must have missed the earlier posts where I noted the difficulty of joining or creating a CP party due to the severe lack of active server population. Combine that with the aforementioned job balance issues and... well a lot of us are pretty much having to earn all our CP solo. Like with many things SE has put out over the years there are too many layers of complexity than are necessary between me and my goals.

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You must have missed the earlier posts where I noted the difficulty of joining or creating a CP party due to the severe lack of active server population.

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The thing is, that makes everything harder, not just earning CP or EXP. But what I see is not simply a lack of people but rather disinterest. I often ask people and they're like nah I want to do this that or the other content instead (even though nobody I know is capped on job points).

Again, what you're illustrating is not a defect in the job point system itself- The job point issue is at worst a symptom of a larger problem. A problem that could be fixed by either or both of two things:
1) A server merge, which I'm on the fence about since news of a server merge just fuels "game is dying" discussion
2) Job adjustments to make less-solo-capable jobs more independent and/or buffing DPS trust NPCs to be halfway decent instead of garbage.