Very low supply of HMP, Riftcinder and Riftdross

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Originally Posted by Feary

although ffxidb drop information is not correct since everyone in the party is not posting results to the collective.

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I'm curious, why do you think this leads to inaccuracies in FFXIDB's drop information?

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Originally Posted by Demonjustin

I'm curious, why do you think this leads to inaccuracies in FFXIDB's drop information?

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For one, everyone must be running Windower or Ashita with a plugin loaded that monitors the drops and submits them to the database. That means console users are automatically excluded from the statistics.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

For one, everyone must be running Windower or Ashita with a plugin loaded that monitors the drops and submits them to the database. That means console users are automatically excluded from the statistics.

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Are you suggesting that the game has different drop rates depending on your system? Or are you saying that console and pc users cap lights/use cells in a different way?

I'm not sure about the rest of you, but I'd still take the word of an automated system collecting data from thousands of different instances over that of a mental list from an individual who'se statistics are based on them playing a few characters.

Unfortunately, the latter seems to have the biggest group of followers here...

FFXIDB is inaccurate in two cases that I know of:
1) In a "layer zone" aka instance like Salvage or Delve. -- Packets are sent by the server multiple times because SE's server infrastructure is bottlenecked and they make it playable by being incredibly redundant in cases where they think the packet might have been dropped. This means that item packets can be sent twice, which results in higher than realistic drop rates. For instance, if you look up Khrysokhimaira Elder you will notice it has a 125% drop rate on Linen Coin Pouches. That's because the drop rate in that zone is overestimated by about 25% due to high traffic/lag. Orthrus Seether, on the other hand, is only listed as having a 105% drop rate because Bhaflau is less laggy/popular.

2) When determining the precise level of TH. -- FFXIDB fails to notice non-traditional forms of TH, like Bounty Shot, TH Trait on BLU, pets with TH, and Fellows with TH. This results in higher than realistic TH0 drop rates, but has no affect on higher tiers of TH. Also, it assumes that you automatically have the highest level TH in the party regardless whether they acted on the mob, so in that sense it biases drop rates downwards. Overall, FFXIDB underestimates the effect of TH.


As far as I know, Voidwatch drop rates should be near 100% accurate. XIDB has also collected data on alignment, but no one has bothered to parse it.

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Originally Posted by detlef

Are you suggesting that the game has different drop rates depending on your system? Or are you saying that console and pc users cap lights/use cells in a different way?

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I meant that events with individual loot pools, with console users in the party, won't have their items reported. So the stats on a full party getting drops may be incorrect. Drop rates are calculated on the server, not your system, so of course consoles won't have different drop rates. However, FFXIDB doesn't talk directly to the server, it relies on us having a program to record the activity from the server, which can't be easily done on a console.

The thing is that drop rates are not calculated by party; they're calculated by number of drops over X runs. Whether it's 18 people over ten runs or ten people over 18 runs, you've still got 180 different data points. It may take more runs if not everyone is calculating, but overall a trend will become visible. It doesn't matter if not everyone is recorded; it will not change the overall trend.

Example, say you have all 18 people in an alliance parsing over 18 fights. That's 324 points of data. Now let's say you have ten people doing it instead of 18; it'd take 32-33 fights to get the same amount of data, but you're still getting the same general trend of data over time. The more fights you do, and the more data you get, the more the pattern and exact drop rate becomes obvious. It doesn't matter how many people there are doing it, except to determine how long it takes to get enough of a sample size to prove a relative rate. And with how long VW has been out, likely the rate is pretty accurate by now.

So yeah, it doesn't matter if there are console users or users that aren't giving item drop information; the rate will eventually be determined simply due to having a large enough sample size, since droprates are the same across all players.

Well it seems I'm late to the party. Regardless, I'll give my own explanation.

Roll a die 1,000,000 times and record the results of every roll. You should see each side come up roughly 16~17% of the time.
Roll a die 1,000,000 more times, this time record only the results of every third roll. You should still see each side come up around 16~17% of the time.

The reason for this is that probability isn't being affected by your lack of gathering results from those other two rolls. You're ignoring two thirds of the rolls but you're not excluding specific numbers or anything, they're entirely random, it's as though these rolls never took place. If you excluded specific numbers you'd be tampering with the data, but since it's entirely random data you're missing and each roll had an equal chance to produce the results you're going to get an accurate number all the same.

FFXIDB is missing information from some players, yes, but this doesn't prevent it from getting the overall picture. The only way it would is if the chance for the dice to land on a specific number was different for each character/console or if it specifically ignored certain information and thus, tampered with it's own data.

So this weekend I see a shout for morta (I think, anyway it was a cinder dropping NM), I join. It's me and the shouter. After about 15 mins of NOT ANOTHER SINGLE PERSON EXPRESSING INTEREST the shouter decided to change it to akvan. It filled up okay after that... but yeah cannot express enough how uninterested most people are in doing this content. This was on a Saturday afternoon (Pacific time) so should be a great time to scare up people for a shout.

People don't feel like gambling their time when cinder rates are so low and dross is worth so little. I don't blame them. I just joined cause I like VW.

Heavy Metal is trivial now that it requires T3 mats for reforged armor, only thing it takes is a couple weeks granted you have the gil to buy from people. Maybe requires you to make your own VW shouts when there are no shouts going on which everyone is capable of doing with little to no common sense.

Riftcinders/Dross are the real problem. I'd rather do 1500 plates twice than plates+cinders because no one sees value in doing these anymore.

SIMPLE FIX! Make Empy Armor reforge require Sealord Skin (Bismarck drop) or Belladona Sap (Morta drop).

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Originally Posted by InpendingDeath

SIMPLE FIX! Make Empy Armor reforge require Sealord Skin (Bismarck drop) or Belladona Sap (Morta drop).

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This will work making those a bit more attractive indeed, the main problem however is still the plates, moreso, the supply and demand forcing the price to a point where in my opinion it's not worth the pricetag.
As I've said before, as it stands right now gilwise an i119 Empyrian weapon costs considerably more than even a Mythic weapon (going by Bahamut prices for plates and Dross/Cinder), which is ridiculous because most Empyrian weapons are only equal to Relic weapons in the department of damage output (And only IF you ride AM3 constantly) but don't even come close to the extra utilities the Mythic weapons and some of the Relic weapons have to offer.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

This will work making those a bit more attractive indeed, the main problem however is still the plates, moreso, the supply and demand forcing the price to a point where in my opinion it's not worth the pricetag.
As I've said before, as it stands right now gilwise an i119 Empyrian weapon costs considerably more than a Mythic weapon, which is ridiculous because most Empyrian weapons are only equal to Relic weapons in the department of damage output (And only IF you ride AM3 constantly) but don't even come close to the extra utilities the Mythic weapons and some of the Relic weapons offer.

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I don't believe there "Only Equal" you get an item not many people have which is worth a lot now days imo. I'd rather have something rare and cool looking. Everyone has the standard bandwagon R/Ms, takes dedication to said job to make the Empy99. I can usually talk people into selling plates for 100,000g. Most the time I shout for VW I have several LS mates in the run to help me and they get pennons for their efforts. Now days a lot of people are doing the grind of mythic so a lot of people will take fast cash for plates if ask. I wouldn't buy one for over 120,000g and I did 1500 in a few weeks spamming T3 and Sky NMs. I don't see any problem with plates, I would rather do 1500 twice than the Cinders still.

My suggestion is make your own VW runs, invite LS mates, make friends with people who do regularly with you and talk them into selling at 100-110,000 each. I can't speak for bahamut but a lot of people on Cerb have no problems handing them over for the quick gil, there are people who get VW mat and can't wait to go to AH and undercut asking price by 150,000g+.

If you build a R/E/M for the "Parse to win"/Bandwagon job mentality I am very sorry. Should build a weapon because you like the job. Any R/E/M will do good damage if you aren't a moron with gear sets and won't make or break any content in the game having one over the other. I once cared about doing the most damage also, but then I hit puberty.

Don't get me wrong, I get the whole job dedication thing and the like and have major respect for the people that are still willing to make them under the current circumstances.
But in my opinion when you want to make a top weapon Empyrian is not worth its pricetag when you compare the actual weapon to its alternatives.
An Empyrian is a pure DD weapon which offers nothing else in the form of utility but at this moment comes at a pricetag that exceeds even that of what for many jobs is considered the best weapon in game by most people.

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Originally Posted by Shirai

Don't get me wrong, I get the whole job dedication thing and the like and have major respect for the people that are still willing to make them under the current circumstances.
But in my opinion when you want to make a top weapon Empyrian is not worth its pricetag when you compare the actual weapon to its alternatives.
An Empyrian is a pure DD weapon which offers nothing else in the form of utility but at this moment comes at a pricetag that exceeds even that of what for many jobs is considered the best weapon in game by most people.

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I understand but it still comes down to what the person playing the game wants to make, money isn't the issue, spam some T3's and you get lucky and get mats/cells and sometimes buy all the plates that drop to people from run and still walk away with profit, might not be good profit but any counts. I like VW and don't mind spamming it for something to do so I guess empy was the path for me. In most cases of making empy you will be the one shouting for Sky/T3 VWs so it's not like you won't get any pouches/plates/cinders for yourself further cutting the cost. Some people hate VW and prefer doing dynamis or salvage everyday and that's cool to each his own they'd prob be better off doing R/M. There all top tier weapons I don't see a couple %'s of damage being a deciding factor since it won't make or break any content in the game.

There is a HUGE drought on Riftdross/Cinder because there is no benefit to anyone else besides the gil, which they can argue they can get off T3s this needs to be fixed as I suggested making Bismarck/Morta materials part of empy reforge would help out incredibly people would actually join these shouts then and then you can drag LS mates to these and make them sell to you for slightly less than market price :) not to mention the influx would drive prices down a bit and there will be a good market for those mats so they still get something out of it and it comes down to same think as T3s you can talk other people out of their cinders/dross for lower than market price so they can get the quick gil to do their R/Ms.

Dev response does sound like that they would add these mats from morta/bis to be used in empy reforge, They can't have the only mobs in game for this upgrade to continue to be dead it's not an option.

I'm not good with crunching the numbers and comparing stuff. How does a 119 Empyrean weapon compare to, say, an Oboro weapon of the same type that you can get for a measly couple of million with about a grand total of 2 hours work?

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I'm not good with crunching the numbers and comparing stuff. How does a 119 Empyrean weapon compare to, say, an Oboro weapon of the same type that you can get for a measly couple of million with about a grand total of 2 hours work?

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Well, to be very blunt, there is no comparison.
You're better off getting yourself a few Delve wins and getting an augmentable weapon from there, Skirmish being a decent alternative if you're looking to try your luck or burn a lot of gil with the augment roulette.

As I said before, the margin between an Empyrian weapon and a Relic is very small, under the certain circumstances a Delve weapon can come close.
Except for a few exceptions because of their utility, Oboro is the poor man's choice.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

I'm not good with crunching the numbers and comparing stuff. How does a 119 Empyrean weapon compare to, say, an Oboro weapon of the same type that you can get for a measly couple of million with about a grand total of 2 hours work?

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Well a 119 empy would cost more than a hundred times more and definitely isn't a hundred times better. But as other poster said, Oboro weapon is more of a stopgap so you have enough accuracy to hit stuff in current content, not something you want to rely on entirely in the long run.

I have several and I love them but other than the Oboro harp (no thanks dharp grind) I'm looking to replace all of them with something better when I get the chance.

As others have said, many RMEs are still at least comparable to other best options if not better, and the weapon skill update even made some of the garbage ones more viable (Rhongomiant for exmaple, isn't as bad as it used to be because of how they updated Torment). Thankfully though, there's not really any jobs that "need" an RME to function well anymore, unlike the Abyssea/Voidwatch era.

The only ones I'd really consider "overpowered" anymore are Aegis, Daurdabla and arguably the Ergon Weapons.

I would like to see HMP/Riftdross/Riftcinder and other empy items, drop from Unity.

(Assuming the content is even viable, fun, etc).

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Originally Posted by InpendingDeath

SIMPLE FIX! Make Empy Armor reforge require Sealord Skin (Bismarck drop) or Belladona Sap (Morta drop).

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would be very nice. so hard to get sealord skins to make Sweordfaetels +1 for my x-hit. 0/20 on that synth ; ;

The supply of riftdross/riftcinder is so terrible. :(