The lore for Puks when they were added in Aht Urhgan was that they were one of many types of chimera (dragon and some sort of vermin). I always took it as that's the only reason Beastmaster can charm them is because they are part Vermin. It would be in SE's best interest just to re-categorize them under Vermin and end the dispute/potential for Puk jugs. It makes me wonder though if Killer Instinct works with a charmed Puk.
Full blooded dragons in my opinion do stray too much into Dragoon territory. It was always denoted in the lore of the game that Undead, Dragons, Arcana, & Demons were in a class of their own of being more sentient, hence why they could not be easily tamed. Each of them already have their respective "knights". I personally like Beastmaster just fine as being a "knight" of the 7 common creature types. I just wish Monster Correlation and individual pet identity was more applicable, among other things like just raw damage/utility increase.
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07-19-2014, 07:57 AMRwolf
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07-19-2014, 08:03 AMLeonardusI guess you can't really "trust" SE's standards, you know?Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloon
Next Trust update: Achtelle and...Bravo.
... -
07-19-2014, 08:41 AMWoWHow do you feel about blu and bst overlapping as it pertains to monster abilities? How about bst killer intimidation effects on gear? Dragons do not tame wyrms, puks, and dragons in XI. Bahamut is also described as the wyrm king, but has nothing to do with dragoons, nor do shadow dragons. Wyrms are thought to be bahamut's servants, not drgs. Also, puks are called wind wyverns, which is why they are classified as dragons. Iirc, these were categorized as beast at one point http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Category:Monoceros. They are described as beast. Chimera are described as a beast/reptilian hybrid, but are part of the arcana family, not beast or lizard/dragon. Chimera are hybrids as-well (But not charmable nor part of the bst bestiary). However, you brought up a great point, chimera are hybrid beast, part lion, snake, and goat; all are fair game in the bst bestiary. We should be able to charm Khimaira because they are part beast and reptile^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
Drg should not give two craps about a naul or a shadow dragon being a pet, because drg will never tame a naul or shadow dragon; drg game mechanics will not allow it. Dragon breathe every few seconds after a ws ftw? -
07-19-2014, 08:45 AMWoWOr the mandy and her plantoid companions, while plantoids are "Sentimental" to bst. I am pretty sure automotons were sentimental to pups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardus
Nice word play on trust also, lol. -
07-19-2014, 09:48 AMRwolf
I agree with you that Puks and Khimaira should be in Beastmaster's domain, as they have "beast" components, I just don't agree with you on Wyrms, Dragons, and Wyverns.
Beastmaster has a ton of potential pets left untapped, including a lot of powerful great beast types. I don't see the push in getting SE who already has a rigid stance on lore and fighting to get pet issues fixed, just to give Beastmaster a wyrm pet.
- Saying BLU and BST overlap, is like saying how do I feel about WHM RDM SCH PLD RUN overlap in White Magic and BLM RDM SCH GEO DRK overlap in Black Magic. Or how I feel about Ninja getting Max HP Boost when it was a Monk trait. That list goes on forever, there are shared abilities, effects and traits. However those things have nothing to do with lore.
- Killer effects on weapons and armor are no different than any other shared thing. If you want to get technical. You can say the same thing for Double Attack, Triple Attack, Magic Attack Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus, list goes on and on.
- Kindred are Demons. Demons are predatory to dragons. So a demon Beastmaster having a dragon pet makes a lot of sense because it is unique to their species not the job.
- Bahamut counter-argument makes no sense. The only interaction we have with Bahamut is CoP-related which the story has nothing to do with Dragoons. By that logic it doesn't make sense for a Dragoon whose lore is to hunt wyrms and dragons to subjugate one. But somehow it makes perfect sense that a humanoid Beastmaster with no lore whatsoever around dragons can...
- Yes puks are part dragon, just like they are part vermin. Not sure how you're trying to correct me when I said they were a chimera (hybrid) of both.
- I don't understand the Monoceros part in regard to advocating wyrm pets for Beastmaster.
- Khimaira are part beast/reptile/whatever else, as no one completely knows and are a chimera (different spelling). The general definition of a chimera is a definition of any species comprised as a hybrid of more than one species. In FFXI, Lamiae and Puks are other chimeras.
- Saying BLU and BST overlap, is like saying how do I feel about WHM RDM SCH PLD RUN overlap in White Magic and BLM RDM SCH GEO DRK overlap in Black Magic. Or how I feel about Ninja getting Max HP Boost when it was a Monk trait. That list goes on forever, there are shared abilities, effects and traits. However those things have nothing to do with lore.
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07-19-2014, 09:56 AMBalloon
I'm actually going to go out on a limb and say I don't think Dragons should be part of Beastmasters aresenal, but I do think other things, like Monoceros, Puks etc should be.
I have more of an issue with their excuses as to why not, when they're releasing Beast and Automaton trusts. It strikes me as hypocritical.
I also fully advocate the removal of a cap of beastmaster pets. Beast Affinity should give an amount of attack,acc and defense % and pets should be on equal footing.
But they don't know what to do with crafts. When they release 120 crafting level what do you think cooking will be skilling up on? Probably in part jugpets. It means they can release stuff for beastmaster that doesn't require thought and pawn it off as if they're actually working on things. Why fix something that makes it look like you're working.
I wouldn't be annoyed if Beastmasters got a dragon though. I just don't think it's strictly necessary. There's a lot left to tap into, my problem is they keep tapping into sheeps and crabs. -
07-19-2014, 10:31 AMMitruya
I was annoyed with the idea of the automaton Trusts at first. But now I like to run around with both of them on PUP, so I have 3 pets! (sort of) You can't control them and the RDM one doesn't cure you, so eh .... I don't think players with these Trusts are suddenly replacing Puppetmasters.
I would totally go for Achtelle and Bravo as Trusts. I doubt the wyrm would heal you, and since most Trusts are pretty weak, this wouldn't replace DRGs either. -
07-19-2014, 10:40 AMBalloon
Don't get me wrong, when I was gonna quit I wanted to log out with all 3 automaton out and pretend that SE let us summon all 3 and just be in a state of nirvana.
I missed the event by taking a break during it.
dumb dumb. -
07-19-2014, 10:50 AMWoWLore? As in those circle abilities you can get by subbing the "Knights" at lvl 5?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
You made my point for me, drgs have nothing to do with every dragon (bahamut), only wyverns.
Your argument is contradicting; the thought of "no" dragon pets is contradictory because we can tame one, lol. Puks are not vermin, they count towards dragon kills. Puks are classified as dragons. The vermin argument is senseless because they are dragons.
Read this http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post191859. The four sky bosses are a possibility, one of them is a wyvern. SE was going to allow us summon similar pets. If SE alluded to a the possibility, but yet, backpeddled, it is contradictory and I don't see how ppl can argue against it when SE alluded to allowing us summon a Adamantoise (Surfaced), Roc, Wyvern, and Tiger.
So, we can charm a dragon, SE alluded to allowing us call forth a seiryu -esque pet, and automotons are usable by anyone, but yet, ppl are screaming no to bst pet dragons.
Lore; beast are masters of the natural world, so saying our killer effects are not lore related is akin to saying dragoon's lore (you alluded) to is null-void, no? You discussed the "knights" bst having the 7 ecosystems while drg, plds,and drks having sentimental ties to dragons, undead, and arcana, but yet, it is ok for bst to tame a khimaira whom are Arcana. So essentially, anything that is not "drg territory' is off limits. The only lore drg have toward dragons in XI is dragon killers. Lets not act like drgs were taming wyrms and shadow dragons.
Also, i know chimera are hybrid, that is what i alluded to in my previous post when you were discussing hybrid (Puk).
Bottomline is this, beast can tame a dragon; idc if he is part vermin, behemoth, Black, Japanese, Korean, Blasian, taru, galka, pitbull, etc, they are classified as dragons and bst can charm them. Killer effects aside, we can charm them, which is not always the case as it pertains to being predatory. -
07-19-2014, 10:59 AMWoWI can dig this^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Balloon
However, as I alluded to, SE were discussing the four sky guardians and behemoths as possible pets; one of the guardians of sky is a wyvern, but yet, they back-peddled.
Personally, i would like a behemoth, however, for them to allude to a implementable wyvern (Seiryu -esque) then backpeddle bugs me. I am willing to drop the subject (In this thread), but some ppl are acting like this is forbidden grounds when SE alluded to it themselves "SMH"
It is a contradiction. I can use an automaton on bst, specialize that SE. -
07-19-2014, 11:26 AMMitruya
The automaton Trusts are nothing like using the real thing. Having them doesn't make someone a PUP.
That thread you referenced mentions the sky gods as special summons like Odin/Alexander. I had totally forgot about that but hey we all remember the pet-TH fiasco and of course the scorpion didn't win and yada yada. And now the turtle is a regular jug? Yeah I don't get it either. -
07-19-2014, 11:34 AMWoWThat is what I am saying regarding dragon jugs; Nauls and shadow dragons function nothing like a dragoon's wyvern. We are still missing a lance and healing breathes, hence are not drgs. however, some argued for the sentimental aspect of a dragon, regardless of the efficacy/function.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitruya
but, i don't want to make this thread about dragon jugs, this is Zombie's thread pertaining to pet lvl cap, so i will chill out. -
07-19-2014, 11:56 AMMitruya
^^ Hence I tried to move my discussion back over to the other thread. My apologies for the derailment.
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07-19-2014, 12:04 PMWoW
Its cool, i do understand where you are coming from. honestly, dragons are the very least of bst problems. Knowing SE, we will receive a wyrm with only hurricane wing "Shrugs"
As Balloon stated, they are great pets out there (Some of which we have) that are either not in native form or unreleased. -
07-19-2014, 01:59 PMRwolf
Using a support job has nothing to do with lore and storyline. Puks are part dragon, part vermin. Go read the official description of the species from SE. It's classified as dragon because the system doesn't allow for both and SE chose to throw it under Dragons. Hence why I said SE needs to just change it to their vermin side so people will stop complaining BST can charm dragons. Because it's not a true dragon, it is part beast. I'm not repeating that any more and SE said no because of lore. If you want to ignore the lore officially written by SE and think the game's lore is based on job abilities and support jobs, knock yourself out.
Your posts are all over the place and really this is stemming from you personally not liking someone disagreeing with your concept of the game. Same as the other thread arguing BST pets are inexpensive because you've maxed Cooking. The real bottom line is you voice an opinion, you don't like when someone disagrees with your opinion and beat it to death with a wall of text that isn't really a counterpoint and get all wound up.
End of me participating in derailing a thread that's supposed to be focused on jug pet caps and pet levels. I agree and support SE's response on lore and explained why, and you are free to disagree. -
07-19-2014, 02:55 PMWoWSE alluded to adding a wyvern pet, but you completely glossed over that XD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
But keep ranting; puks are dragons, bottomline. If SE changed them to vermin that will just pile on to the contradicting because puks have dragon traits and count as dragon kills in ToM.
You can create all the lore you want (You never clarified lore btw, only "knights" Also, bst knight being a knight? whaaaa?), but fact, puks are dragons, get over it brah^^
You are also getting extremely confrontational and personal, this is personal because you are bringing up old threads I posted in, cooking? Really?
Balloon disagreed with me, but I respectably told him I can get with that http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post516796. I agree, we still have monsters that are yet to see the light of day.
No clue what you are talking about brah "Shrugs" I even agreed with ppl about jug cost http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post503768, my thing was the efficacy and cost does not equate; man....talk about ppl being all over the place, lol (You). I understand that everyone does not want to lvl a craft, but I would be lying if i told you it did not make jug accessibility much easier.
To end this derailment, PUKS ARE VERMIN; happy?^^
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/P..._Fantasy_XI%29
P.S, they beg to differ, puks may be part colibri. -
07-19-2014, 05:37 PMLeonardusThis is incorrect. They oppose each other, which is why it's so weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rwolf
I also cannot agree with saying job abilities and traits have nothing to do with the lore. They most certainly do, but of course there can be odd occurrences of shared traits in one's arsenal because the items you equip and spells you cast have lore of their own (And of course, in the lore, adventurers can fuse two jobs together to forge their own destiny, to a limited extent).
So Camate, they won't explain their reasoning for the caps? Because I think that's what we all truly want. All the caps appear to do is force players to use the most current (and most expensive) pets, which are, more often than not, just copies of older pets, so why is SE making it harder on themselves?Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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07-19-2014, 10:42 PMVoldYou guys should ask yourselves why you think adding yet more jug pets is going to fix anything :x Does it not occur to you something isn't working or is it meant to be a continuous "throw them a bone to make them fell better" thing? ;(Quote:
Originally Posted by Camate
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07-19-2014, 11:07 PMRwolfI can agree in hindsight that predator is the wrong descriptor to use. They do oppose each other, yet it's not weird in my opinion to see a demon Beastmaster with a Wyvern because of their opposition. Where I don't agree is using that as a foundation for saying logically Beastmaster should charm Dragon types because of this. Tres Duendes has a Fomor BLM for a pet, doesn't mean Beastmaster should charm Fomors either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonardus
Job abilities having something to do with lore in the context of what the job is about, I agree on that. But when I was addressing WoW, it was said in the context of job abilities, traits and effects that are shared in any sort of way have nothing to do with lore. For example, just because you can wear "Beast Killer" armor doesn't make you a Beastmaster. BST and BLU have some overlap in abilities but BST taming monsters to use their monster abilities and BLU augments their soul with monster essence have nothing to do with each other. Even trust magic is not a comparison. They aren't pets, I cannot command them to do anything. I can only summon and release the magic.
I see no logical reason to break the game's lore just to allow BST to tame a mini wyrm. Puks are a unique case of being classified in the rigid structure of the game as Dragon-type but lore wise they are just as much Vermin as they are Dragons. Hence why I think they allowed BST to charm them. I don't agree with SE's reply awhile back that Puks are into Dragoons territory, so no Puk jugs. -
07-20-2014, 04:31 AMWoW
Completely agree with Vold and Leo, if the cap was lifted, we would not need any new pets until the next cap, so essentially, SE is making it harder for themselves perhaps?
They could just dig in, do the work, knock bst affinity out, and reap the benefits later (Not worrying about new pets every three or so months, because we are complaining about the new ones suck-itude).
I would also like for SE to add moves which were removed from our jugs. Iirc, SE added wild carrot to every rabbit familiar, hence this should be doable, np. Pets should be close to their native forms, monstrosity like, this is absolutely ridiculous imo.
http://t14.imagechef.com/ic/imgout/s...9a6f9c637b.jpg
He is missing two moves, Hoof Volley and Nihility Song, but you added them to monstrosity, hence they are implementable XD. Another example are the lynx, admantoise, and several others.
I would love for the cap to be lifted to end this senseless repeat cycle; however, I do not want to use a cactus with just 1k needles, a beetle without rhinowrecker, a lynx with only charged whisker, etc. Honestly, Hobs, Falcorr, and Nazuna will most likely be the main jugs used. I do not see anyone using the raptor, antilion, sabotender, fly, flytrap, apkallu, slug, or the beetle (rarely seen those guys in their respective eras, save the slug before the debuff changes, mainly hobs, NN, lucky, falcorr onry). Honestly, it would be pretty much the same, with a little hobs, falcorr, and nazuna. The great deal of jugs are not even good and SE is to blame. essentially, we will still be only using 3 or 4 jugs.
I cannot speak for everyone, but me and my friends mainly used the most damaging pets or the most durable (Hobs, Falcorr). This move removal is to blame. Most ppl would never use a crab over falcorr, NN, or hobs. However, a crab with venom shower and megascissors would be a solid choice as opposed to the whole hobs or falcorr only rotation. Imo, there is no reason to use the others; Thank You SE^^
Imo, hq versions of repeats whom are distinctly different than their nq counterparts are acceptable.
I may take a ton of flak for this, but I am an advocate for another crab^^
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...orter_Crab.png
Metallic Body
Bubble Shower
Bubble Curtain
Scissor Guard
Big Scissors
Mega Scissors
Venom Shower -
07-23-2014, 02:45 PMdasva
If the cap was lifted there would never be a "need" for new jugs. Our pets would automatically be our ilvl weapon just like other jobs (yes I'm aware it's ranged for smn/pup but same concept) without having to wait for new higher capped pets to come out unlike those jobs. We'd keep the versatility that this job was intended to have. Bsts were supposed to know and use the monsters types that are strong against what they are fighting instead of just throw ibukki at everything
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07-23-2014, 11:00 PMWoW
Personally, I would like new jugs, because they screwed up the past batches. Our past jugs are dated, they have to introduce stronger variations of our jugs imo. For instance, ferromantoise > Raphie's version, porter crabs > all of our crabs, collared lynx > Crafty, Bloodclaw, inguza > Dapper Mac, Florido > Amigo Sabotender, vermillion raptor > Swift, Arundimite > Lars, Formiceros > Chuckey, Gamboge > Panzer, etc. All of the aforementioned guys have superior abilities than our dated versions. Appearance aside, the difference in special abilities are huge.
Personally, I would love for them to go down our familar list and release their recent/updated counterparts, one from each species; coeurl, adamantoise, diremite, beetle, etc. I mean, I have no intentions on using any of our ucapped jugs, save, hobs, falcorr, and NN. Adamantoise, beetle, raptor, sabotender, coeurl, apkallu, crab, ant? Nah, I am good, will pass on those guys. Ferromantoise, Gambodge beetle, vermillion raptor, florido sabotender, collared lynx, inguza, porter crab, formiceros? Yea, ill use those guys, in native form. The remaining jugs are pretty meh to begin with, flytrap, eft, lizard, fly; but the eft is the best of the bunch, not a bad pet, but not great neither. -
07-27-2014, 04:19 AMZoMBie343
Bump. Still havent played BST and no reason to bring BST into Delve.
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07-28-2014, 07:33 AMWoW
I agree Zombie; wish SE would listen to us as opposed to brushing off the players.
I am in a wait and see mode. Me and Olor were discussing this in another thread, but SE should not repeat any jugs imo until the entire bestiary is full; makes no sense. I would welcome upgraded sub-species of a few (As i mentioned in my previous post), however, there are plenty of monsters left which have never made it to jug form. How are we 13 years in XI's lifespan and never seen a scorpion whom was out since like, what? 2003? But we have five crabs and a plethora of mandies/rabbits? Hmmm. If SE repeats any pets they better be awesome, lol. The lack of communication, refusal to listen/help us will cause a $hit storm, lol.
I was attached to the old guys and liked the notion of seeing updated versions, but I had a change of heart. Most of them are pretty sub-par and there are un-released monsters whom are much more efficient.
Imo, they should release those special strikers; most are hard hitters and have utility in their normal attacks; -20 tp to an enemy it strikes, defense down, stun, aoe damage and what not; on top of their dd expertise, I could see some people requesting for an occasional tp/defense reduction and stun. The new skirmishes may be the fad of the future, hence it may not be an "all delve world;" not entirely, but an important gearing aspect if the content deliverers. Any dd can do skirmish.
Also, I am not developer or anything, but it takes several months to release some jugs? I smell gimp deliberation, aka move removal as opposed to releasing them in near native form. Take this move out, that move out, remove beneficial effects, etc.