Dragoon's Future as DD

The extra haste putting you at cap makes a notable difference during zergs, for certain. It's just that, you lose your Wyvern and Spirit/Soul Jump, so its like it buffs some things but nerfs other things but the net result is positive but not as much as it could be. It's too much of a mixed bag SP ability.
Haste
Max HP Boost
Potent Heal
STR Boost
Accuracy Boost
Jump/High/Super Jump Bonuses
Resets Jump Timers
Added Base DMG

It does a lot, it's a decent SP ability but since it kills the Wyvern it leaves the DRG at a disadvantage unless the Dragoon had their Wyvern summoned long before entering the battlefield or Delve and allowed the Call Wyvern timer to reset to 0 before Spirit Surge was needed. If the DRG used Call Wyvern before entering the fight, died sometime in the middle of the fight, used Call Wyvern after unweakening and used Spirit Surge on the mega boss, then the DRG will be without the Wyvern for the duration of the fight.

It would be just awesome if Spirit Surge reset Call Wyvern or if the Wyvern is dead and Spirit Surge is used, Call Wyvern is reset and then the SP ability is used right away, this way we don't have to waste a potential 20min recast Job Ability to activate our SP ability, especially if the DRG recently died shortly after calling their Wyvern and the Call Wyvern JA is at like a 15min recast.

As strong and powerful as they buff Wyverns' defenses, the #1 most frequent way Wyverns are defeated in battle is because they disappear when the Dragoon dies. No matter how much magic defense and defense they give to Wyverns, if the Dragoon dies, the Wyvern dies. The only way to mitigate this is to shorten the Call Wyvern recast to ~10minutes, or allow Spirit Surge to either reset the Call Wyvern timer or, allow the use of Spirit Surge without a Wyvern(in which case the animation can be adjusted to make the Wyvern temporarily appear, then be absorbed, similar to Odin/Alexander during Astral Flow.

I'm not sure how often people use /SAM over /WAR in end-game now, but while Hasso is in effect, SS only gives an extra 2% haste, since that's all that you are from cap under max magic haste and gear anyway (though that is a further delay reduction of 9%).

And strangely enough, I don't think that I've EVER even used SS since usually the only time it would come in useful is when something bad happened and either my wyvern died, or I'm really going to need cures from it.

On that note, if SS was used because you see something bad coming that's going to kill your wyvern when it's already low on HP, do you only get a boost of the wyvern's remaining HP? And do you still get his max added to you, so that you can be cured up a lot more?

Are they even trying anymore?

Dragoon Spirit Link Effect Reduces caster's HP consumption when Spirit Link activates.
Reduce HP consumption by 1 percent.

Wyvern Max HP Bonus Increases the maximum HP of wyverns.
Increase max HP by 10.

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Originally Posted by Skeelo

Are they even trying anymore?

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the short answer is: nope.

Dragoon has been in a piteous state for years, and trying to place emphasis on a pet with a twenty minute cooldown shows how utterly and completely out of touch they are. Dragoon needs an attack buff, its weaponskills need an attack buff, and the Wyvern needs to not be a complete joke. THF can crap out a 9k Rudra's Storm no problem while DRG is struggling to pull a 5k Stardiver on the same mob with the same buffs. Drakesbane at the very least should have had its BS attack penalty removed at this point, but hey, we can't have a Mythic DRG coming close to the insanity that a Tsurumaru Samurai can pull off; that'd be imbalanced!

I am 15k Alexandrite from finishing my Ryu, and having not turned in a single piece am thinking I may just redo assaults and make a weapon for a job that will actually get to be used every now and then rather than sit on my mannequin.

you want Dragoon to be a pet job, SE? then you need to make the pet at least CLOSE to Automatons/Avatars/Jugs. the pin prick damage and animation lock from breaths render the pets about as effective as throwing Pebbles.

Ryuno feels worthless. Drakesbanes do 2-4k on most NMs in delve, Stardivers do 3-5k, sometimes spiking a bit higher, usually doing its best on Delve 1 NMs (in which case it's about 6-7k). Overall DRG feels weak unless buffed to the teeth and fighting weak content. No matter how much defense they give the Wyvern, as soon as the DRG dies, the Wyvern dies, even if the DRG dying isn't even the DRGs fault! A bad pull or a faulty healer could mean the DRG dies prematurely and then he's left in the dust by other DDs for 20minutes. Even when the Wyvern is alive, the DRG is far behind Samurai.

They also need to rebalance Skillchain damage because the way it is now, Samurai's skillchain damage alone is higher than most other damage dealers.

at this point, it isn't even Samurai's skillchain damage, so much as being able to push out 10-20k Fudos every few seconds with a weapon that is both easily obtained, and at this point, outpacing the Relic for the job! if Dragoon could do WS for 10-20k with Upukirex while everyone else was lagging behind, can you imagine the outcry? how swift the emergency maintenance to "return balance" to the game would be?

this thread could easily have been answered with a magic 8-ball: Outlook Not So Good.

Also I want to add, Polearm has the weakest of the updated weapon skills.

Great Sword has Torcleaver which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Great Katana has Tachi: Fudo which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Great Axe has King's Justice which is 7.0 fTP at 300%
Scythe has Insurgency which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Hand to Hand has Howling Fist which is 8.0 fTP at 300% and Raging Fists which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Dagger has Rudras Storm which is 8.0f TP at 300%
Club has Black Halo which is a 7.0 fTP at 300%

At best, Polearm has Impulse Drive which is 6.0 fTP at 300%, and Drakesbane still has a massive attack penalty. Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Also I want to add, Polearm has the weakest of the updated weapon skills.

Great Sword has Torcleaver which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Great Katana has Tachi: Fudo which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Great Axe has King's Justice which is 7.0 fTP at 300%
Scythe has Insurgency which is 10.0 fTP at 300%
Hand to Hand has Howling Fist which is 8.0 fTP at 300% and Raging Fists which is 9.0 fTP at 300%
Dagger has Rudras Storm which is 8.0f TP at 300%
Club has Black Halo which is a 7.0 fTP at 300%

At best, Polearm has Impulse Drive which is 6.0 fTP at 300%, and Drakesbane still has a massive attack penalty. Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

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I have this funny feeling that the Devs don't test this game in the same manner we, as players, actually play it. The only way they can think that buffing the wyvern is going to do anything is if they don't play with any BRD + COR buff combo at all. If no one had any buffs, our wyverns might actually do half-decent damage comparatively. But when the DRG Master, SAM WAR MNK and DRK all have capped or near capped haste, +1237193781231 Attack, and capped/near capped accuracy... buffing the wyvern a little isn't going to mean squat.

But who knows.. I have very low expectations but the "Offensive Buff" is another update away.

They do need to give us a better WS though. Our WSAVG is way too low compared to other jobs with the similar/better WS frequency, specifically SAM.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Not only are Polearm weaponskills very weak, but DRG doesn't have many JA, stances or traits to boost their weapon skill damage like WAR DRK MNK SAM do and Wyverns are not going to close the gap because they can't be targetted with songs or rolls so their damage output is miniscule, unless the next update is going to increase their damage output by like literally 1000%(then maybe they would parse 5-10% damage and not 0.5-1% in a Delve).

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I recently reviewed the amount of Job traits that Dragoon has compared to other damage dealing jobs and I want it noticed that, even when including multiple tiers of a job trait, Dragoon has only 11 Job traits compared to the 20 even 30 job traits (including successive tiers) of other DD jobs. We get: Attack Bonus II (22 attack), Accuracy Bonus III (33 Acc.) and Conserve Tp (which is more of a random bonus than a reliable Damage trait.)

Everything else that we receive, as far as damage improvements goes, is obtained through jumps and maintaining the bonuses that come from having your wyvern present. With the coming Sept. update I'll be the first to express gratitude to the development team for implementing the coming changes into Dragoon's array of benefits. I also enjoy the connection of those benefits to the wyvern.

Giving dragoons job traits that improve the strafe ability I feel is a step in the right direction, but it's only a baby step. Naturally the dev. team wants to maintain balance of the battle mechanics and so changes are going to be gradual.
My suggestions for continuing along the path of improving our side by side companionship of our wyverns includes the following:

1. Please allow the Item level or +skill of our main hand weapons to also improve our wyverns attack and accuracy or implement something of a similar nature. As I understand it, Our wyverns are essentially Level 99 without any accuracy or attack bonuses (unless using food and Lancer's Plackart +1/+2 full time.)

2. Please give Dragoon Teir 4 access to both Attack Bonus and Accuracy Bonus job traits. Considering the new adjustments to improve atk% I would be satisfied with ACC bonus IV.
Please also consider giving dragoon the "Critical Attack Bonus" Job trait. This would also be a welcome adjustment, it would improve the Damage output from jumps, while the wyvern is present, and it would also begin to address the lacking power of Drakesbane.

3. Please improve the amount of control allowed to players over their wyverns actions. This may include:
a) controlling when the wyvern will use its TP for improved function of spirit link.
b) Implementing a physical alternative to the wyverns TP actions, allowing for controlled use of magical damage. "This was a problem with multiple delve monsters where no magic damage was allowed, which also meant the Dragoon's DPS suffered heavily dropping them in terms of priority for DD positions"
c) Improve the power of a wyverns damage breaths, we've been asking for it nicely and not nicely. The use of job abilities and gear to improve the capabilities of our pet comes at the price of reduced DPS yet again, improving the damage from the wyverns breaths reduces the negetive side effects of Job ability delay and gearswapping side effects.

4. Please review and improve polearm weaponskills. As has been stated in this thread; Polearm Weaponskills are currently under-powered when compared to other weapon skills. I think the majority of players using Dragoon will agree that polearm weapon skills have been lacking for awhile, we would like to be considered among the top DD choices. Currently, We find minor niche use when fighting monsters weak to piercing damage, a perk that is shared and overshadowed by Ranger (Jishnu's Radiance, Coronach: Need I say more?)

After having a play with DRG since the September update, using Spirit Link once seems to be enough to cap your wyvern, as my attack is going from 1000 to 1199 with a single Spirit Link. (19.9%) Cap is supposedly 20%, though it will be done as 51/256 or something that doesn't quite work out, hence it being less.

So this is good news^^

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Originally Posted by Bebekeke

After having a play with DRG since the September update, using Spirit Link once seems to be enough to cap your wyvern, as my attack is going from 1000 to 1199 with a single Spirit Link. (19.9%) Cap is supposedly 20%, though it will be done as 51/256 or something that doesn't quite work out, hence it being less.

So this is good news^^

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How many empathy merits do you have? If you're at 5/5, then yeah it'd cap in one go. 200 wyvern exp per merit(including the first.) 1k cap. 200*5 = 1,000. If you aren't at 5/5 then.. weird.

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Originally Posted by Martel

How many empathy merits do you have? If you're at 5/5, then yeah it'd cap in one go. 200 wyvern exp per merit(including the first.) 1k cap. 200*5 = 1,000. If you aren't at 5/5 then.. weird.

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Yeah, apparently I'm 5/5. It's certainly a nice att/def boost, though it's hard to notice the haste when soloing and not specifically parsing the difference.

Time to upgrade my gear now that DRG is worthwhile once again...

Dragoon is actually a solid DD now, on par with MNK DRK WAR I'd wager. Still nowhere near the damage of SAM, but I think SAM is unintentional strong due to the recent SC adjustments which favors SAM and their SC bonus abilities greatly.

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Originally Posted by Xsilver

Dragoon is actually a solid DD now, on par with MNK DRK WAR I'd wager. Still nowhere near the damage of SAM, but I think SAM is unintentional strong due to the recent SC adjustments which favors SAM and their SC bonus abilities greatly.

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The SC bonus is completely irrelevant. A SAM can do more damage in 1 WS than a DRG can do in a WS, 2 jumps, then another WS, or 2 sekanokki'd WS with SC.

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Originally Posted by Bebekeke

The SC bonus is completely irrelevant. A SAM can do more damage in 1 WS than a DRG can do in a WS, 2 jumps, then another WS, or 2 sekanokki'd WS with SC.

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Not in Incursion.

Our WS damage is significantly closer than before.. and lets be honest, no SAM is self-skillchaining at an event with 2-5 other DDs fully buffed. Not to mention DRG should be spamming Camlann's Torment in Incursion which opens and closes skillchains with whatever Samurai go on the run.

So far it seems that SAM and DRG are pretty equal in Incursion, and then there is everyone else. Of course.. I am talking from the standpoint of Koga and Ryu DRG.

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Originally Posted by Reichleiu

Not in Incursion.

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Fair enough, I haven't tried that yet. I haven't managed to get enough Acc to set my DRG upon top level content yet ><

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Originally Posted by Reichleiu

no SAM is self-skillchaining at an event with 2-5 other DDs fully buffed.

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Konzen-Ittai

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Originally Posted by Reichleiu

I am talking from the standpoint of Koga and Ryu DRG.

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I very much doubt that non-mythic sam and non-mythic drg are so close though. Mythic has almost always been much closer to other DDs than non-mythic.

Kozen-Ittai can be 'stolen' by the next WS from any player hitting the mob and 99% of the time it will be during that 1 sec JA delay window if there's other DDs with HasteII/Marches.


Stardiver is very inconsistent in Incursion, it average ~3-5k depending on Angon, although sometimes I get inexplicable 10ks. Att is very important, so GEO makes or breaks stardiver's consistancy. That being said, as pointed out before, Camlann's is better for a variety of reasons; namely because it opens/closes light which works for Fudo/V.Smite.

Also on boss, with AM3 I like to:
Sekkanoki>Jump>High Jump> Camlann>Camlann>Fly High>High Jump>Camlanns>Jump> Camlanns> Jump> Camlann>High Jump Camlann etc

Get off a lot of light skillchains in that period of time if lucky on DA/TA procs on Jumps.

I assume you mean Spirit Jump and Soul Jump, not Jump and High Jump?

And how much are Camlann's doing compared to SD?

I think you missed the part that said WITH AM3 UP which relates to having mythic (mythic crits only jump and high jump not spirit/soul).

No i meant spirit/soul lol

I didnt parse but Camlanns were doing 4500-6000. Stardivers were doing 2300-10,000 with a median of I'd say ~ 5k. In the end they probably equal out but Camlann's has a higher chance of closing/opening a Light SC when you have like 3-4 DDs with capped haste. Hard to parse because rolls/songs are always being dispelled. But when you lack attack songs or rolls, Stardiver does more consistent 5-6.5k with occasional wtf spikes of 8-10k(probably an Angon'd mob and AM3 proc). Though stardiver has a higher dmg potential, Camlann's is likely to either close a SC(if you get lucky and nobody uses a WS after a fudo) or opens a SC for someone else(most likely a Tsusumaru SAM's fudo). X-hit builds are funky because AoE are flying everywhere and often times i jump from 70-80% TP to 120-130% instantly due to capped haste and AoE damage, not to mention Amnesia and mobs running around or saving TP because the mob is <5%.

Would be neat if when you use Steady Wing before activating Spirit Surge, it gave you your Wyvern's Stoneskin effect :)

may be a total drg ws noob but i am very curious as to why do drake and i assume some other polearms have atk penalty in the first place?

The only other one I know of with an atk penalty is Penta Thrust. Which was, of course, DRG's primary WS pre-Drakes. .... .... I really don't know why they did that. Drg was formerly just about the most atk starved DD out there. Why they felt the need to gimp both it's good WS back then... I could not say.

Well, Stardiver doesn't have a atk penalty at least. But I'd really rather they buff Drakes so I can use it again. <,<

Penta Thrust used to be broken way back when, before additional hits had TP gain reduced. Penta Thrust used to return almost 100 TP (out of the old 300) if all the hits landed.

Actually, it returned about 65~ TP, depending on STP, which there was veeery little of back then. The real monster from back then was Asuran Fists using relic H2H(the 999 delay ones not saph.) Which returned something like 120 TP and let them WS literally non stop.

And if that old mechanic was their reason for the atk penalty, then it should have been removed when TP return was patched.

I was wondering what other weapons received a penalty for there ws's because of the old days and have not been fixed since? How many are there still remaining??

Glamding as you said in this thread Dragoon Shortcomings about pet wyverns not having pet foods or some type of item that act's like pets foods and pup's automations box parts. I totally agree that maybe there is something wyverns could use a food item to heal itself or make itself stronger by the player using that item to heal a wyvern/other and that combined with a new breath ability that could heal itself quickly as well as idk increase its attack ability? May be off a bit as dd but somehow bst like?

?Job Trait: Critical Pet Attack

Job Trait: Critical Pet Hit

I'm Sure there could be more??

Wyverns survive for days, it's dragoons that die, but they have helped mitigate that by giving us a perma 20% def while Wyvern is out and leveled up, which makes us passively, the most resilient DD job.

I just wish DRG had a few more JAs to use, another jump, a new buff ability, something. We haven't gotten any new JAs since 95 cap. Maybe they can borrow ideas from FFXIV's DRG. Life Surge could be a critical hit rate boost for 30-60sec, Power Surge can double the base damage of the next Jump,.

They gave the wyvern two small graphic heads with separated necks to have summoned upon calling our Drg's fourth??:)