Will the recent Delve changes also apply to the new Delve II?

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Originally Posted by saevel

Those have become a rare commodity and generally have a princess like mentality since they can get instantly accepted into nearly any group on a given server.

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Well... it's cause they can.

Being a BRD with 4 songs can really inflate your ego...
In the exact opposite way that being a SMN can deflate your ego...

They are a rare commodity because there's nothing else like them in the game, and have been a hard staple in endgame events since the beginning of endgame events. (though apparently SE wants to make GEO more the level of BRD? Ain't ever gonna happen. GEO's limit will always be 2 buff OR enfeebles. The only way GEO can gain more effects would be more self-only... cause the luopan abilities screw up the coding if there's more than one.)

Why do you insist you need a 4 song bard? Should I low man a Tojil with a 2 (3 with new 1hr) or 3 song bard to shut you up?

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Why do you insist you need a 4 song bard? Should I low man a Tojil with a 2 (3 with new 1hr) or 3 song bard to shut you up?

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What you do is meaningless unless you put yourself in the same exact position that a group without any Delve wins would have, until you can see it from exactly that viewpoint understand the issues with it nothing you say will make any difference. I didn't even reply to your last post because in it you made it blatantly clear you don't think of it from the other side at all, why? Simple, you simply think people can lowman the NMs in 15~20 minutes and get their Plasm instantly. The thing is that most groups don't kill that quickly with 119 gear from what I have ever seen in shout groups, you're asking people without 119 gear to go out and do that very thing though and yet expect them apparently to be faster than your average 119 group. I'm sure you would follow up with the fact they can still kill them all but it just takes longer, but the point however is that you are thinking about it from where you are not others.

Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer. Improving your character to beat the content is the answer.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer. Improving your character to beat the content is the answer.

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Person A: Tojil {Do you need it?} 17/18 DD {Can I have it?} {/tell} {please}

Person B: I have MNK.

Person A: Oats?

Person B: Eminent, but I have decent gear & am a good player! I can't get Oats without Tojil. : /

Person A: Sorry, Oats only, maybe when you're better geared.

Person B: But how do I get Oats if I can't do Tojil without Oats, which is the only way to obtain Oats? -_-;

Person A:...

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The above is the typical talk most of my non-Oat friends have ever described to me when trying to join runs when people actually did 18 man runs. The idiocy of the paradoxical nature of 'improving your character to beat the content' is in itself the very core of the issue. If the only answer to getting to do 119 content is to improve your character to 119 levels, and at the same time the only way to do that is to do 119 content which people won't invite you to without have 119 gear, you are looking at a paradox which can't easily be solved by your average player. Sure some people can step out of the bounds of this by asking friends, I have many friends myself who I have assisted in such a way, but not everyone will have this same situation and not everyone will be able to get it done.



In either case I feel like we're sidestepping the issue here. The main issue is the fact that non-119 people can't 6-man Delve, at the same time Delve 6-man has killed off all want to do 18-man runs for Delve which leaves non-119 people without any ability to complete the content. If you need 119 gear to do 119 content, a skilled group, and so on, no one will do it with 6 people. As it was said earlier, the good people of the group will find themselves those 6 man runs already going & winning while everyone else will get screwed, this isn't just for BRDs with extra songs, it's for any good player in a group trying to improve enough to complete the content.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Dumbing down the content (which is already extremely easy) is not the answer.

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Oh and by the way, while the rest of my post more or less adresses the idea of improving your character, I wanted to also point out that this comment right here only serves to prove the point I made with my previous post.

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What you do is meaningless unless you put yourself in the same exact position that a group without any Delve wins would have, until you can see it from exactly that viewpoint understand the issues with it nothing you say will make any difference.

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the point however is that you are thinking about it from where you are not others.

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Not to launch a personal attack, but most people in Draylo's shoes can't even relate to new or returning players anymore. They don't know what it is to start from scratch or from 2 or 3 years behind the curve. They've forgotten all the steps they had to take to get where they are today. They think all a new player has to do is step into Abyssea and everything else just magically falls into place.

So would posting a video of me doing Tojil with my friends and being in gear like 117 eminent gear and a two song bard change your opinions? It really isn't hard, you are just bad players if you can't beat it and you need to improve yourselves.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

So would posting a video of me doing Tojil with my friends and being in gear like 117 eminent gear and a two song bard change your opinions?

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A 6-man run with only a 2 Song BRD, 117 Eminent gear with the exception of potential RF+1 gear, and yes, you might get some amount of ground to stand on with your argument and have some affect on my opinion on the subject. I won't ask you to refrain from gear swaps, but the fact you will be swapping gear admittedly does put some amount of trust in your honesty since I won't likely see you swapping and can't tell if you're using different gear either, though admittedly not many 119 pieces outside of AF/RF are so massively important other than weapons that I expect it to make a large difference.

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you are just bad players if you can't beat it and you need to improve yourselves.

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Another failure to use proper english unless meaningfully directing it at those whom of which you are talking to, in this case presumably me. If you are talking to me, I have already stated I have beaten these NMs multiple times, thus, your comment is inaccurate.

Nahh he's gone way out in left field. I do Tojil with a core group of guys and we smash it utterly for plasm farming. We've tried to "get people the KI" and it's an utter nightmare. You can't trust them on any important job, not even the healer (a healer who hasn't healed through these fights isn't going to know WTF to do). Our best strategy so far is to have the same core six people, then only bring in 1~2 more and have them come as BLM or something and pretty much ignore their existence. The NM's have 10% more HP but that's not any real impairment to our ability to smash it. We finish and bring in another set of two people, rinse and repeat. It's the only way to get consistent wins because most people have zero idea how to do that run, and the shark and bee are even more complicated.

Anyone who things that six people in level 117 gear can waltz in and kill Tojil is bullsh!ting and should be treated the same as if their trying to sell you some nice oceanfront property in Oklahoma. Hell six people in 119 weapons without the supporting gear won't be able to do it. Even six people with all the gear in the world won't do it if they are average players (the definition of your majority btw).

Um did you forget that Tojil was out before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff? If I find the time I'll have a friend post a video of our run. If "average players" can't beat this content then they shouldn't be allowed to get the drops. You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.

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Originally Posted by Draylo

Um did you forget that Tojil was out before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff?

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I personally did not forget, no, however the fact you bring this up brings another question to the table. Did you forget how many buffers and debuffers you needed to beat NMs like Tojil before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff? Last I knew back when we were doing that you had 18 people in the party and some of which were jobs like RDM for Dia III and Gravity II to lower EVA, or GEO for the same kinda thing, lower EVA, lower DEF, then you had BRD & COR swaps for the same kinda thing, Acc+ and Atk+ and so on. It's not as though back then it was all sunshine and rainbows and you just were so badass you could beat it without these buffs and pulled through, no, not even close. Back then you needed a ton of buffs and debuffs to stand a chance at even hitting, let alone hurting, let alone killing the NMs. So to bring up that up right now seems kinda pointless, you're setting two very completely different sets of circumstances up and saying that because A is possible, B is equally as possible.

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If I find the time I'll have a friend post a video of our run. If "average players" can't beat this content then they shouldn't be allowed to get the drops.

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On a general basis I would agree with that idea, the fact that players who can't beat content shouldn't be allowed to get the drops. That being said you again forgot something, when 18 people did it, it was much easier to kill Tojil, it was much easier in general to kill any of the NMs and walk away with a win. Back when you had 18 people Alliances and no 6-man option people shouted a ton and people without the win had a chance to get it. Fast forward to today and you find no shout groups for Plasm at all really, instead you find small closed in groups of people doing 6 man runs like the ones Saevel mentioned and that's it. Why take extras when you don't need to?

The thing is that it all goes back to being able to 6-man the content without the win now because no one does it with an alliance, and while you can say that people shouldn't get the gear if they can't beat the content, I think the odds are stacked against those without the wins in a massive way.

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You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.

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Again with the aforementioned lack of ability to use the english language properly and insinuations of things which have already been proven untrue.

What exactly do you mean by "lack of ability to use the english language properly"?

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Originally Posted by Draylo

What exactly do you mean by "lack of ability to use the english language properly"?

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You should be content with lower tier gear, not force SE to dumb the content down so you idiots can complete it. I honestly don't care for this discussion anymore either, SE will do as it sees fit and I'm glad they haven't totally caved in to terribad players.

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This post implies that the target of the comment can not already complete the content, is an idiot, and is a 'terribad' player, the reason it's a poor use of the english language is because the rest of your post seems to be in reply to me. I have beaten the NMs, proving one of the 3 criteria inaccurate, I can't actually prove the other two to you in any meaningful way, but I am rather confident I don't fall into those categories. As a result, either you failed to correctly articulate who your comment is talking about or you simply failed to use the language correctly.

I honestly only started pointing this out because earlier someone wanted to get on me about retaliating to the same kind of comment, and as a result I'm now going to simply point out every time someone uses 'you' incorrectly as you seem to have done in that quote.

It's in general... It can apply to everyone in one statement and then a portion towards you. Please don't resort to petty "english language" jabs. If anything, you have to capitalize the E in English lol.

Like I said, not really meant to be a spelling thing or anything like that, I hate those arguments as much as the next person. I just started pointing it because of the posts earlier in this thread on page 3, nothing more, I'll stop though. The main reason I made a point about addressing it then is because I support the change and I'm someone who can win, I don't think it's a matter of being unable to complete it due to lack of skill or gear, but rather a lack of balance.

I just don't see what people want SE to do. They want cruor buffs and brews so you can one shot Tojil? The newest delve NMs are being called "Easy" as a 6 man, this game isn't hard.

You can't get 119 gear without doing 119 content, so why not make it so 119 content is reasonable to do with 117 gear, 122 content is reasonable to do with 119 gear, and so on? You can argue it's possible now, sure, it's possible I don't doubt it in all honesty, but the odds are heavily stacked against a 6-man party in the older 119 content for most people. You could say most people suck and aren't worthy but that's a bad argument when everyone & their mom no matter if they sucked or not had access to the wins only a few weeks ago. The only reason wins got so much insanely harder is the fact everything is 6-man now, no one wants to do 18-man runs at all really and for that fact no one besides people who are deemed worthy to go on these runs will get the win. The only people who can join those 6-man runs, are BRDs, WHMs, Stun SCHs, and 119 DDs, and even if someone levels the job to get them into it without a DD you're unlikely to get into groups since they're more closed off than 18-man runs ever were (most consist of LS or Static groups now), and even more unlikely to get any win besides Tojil!

You don't see what people want SE to do? Well, let me explain what I want them to do.

-I would like to see drops balanced properly, either more Plasm/Drops for 18-man runs, with drop rates, Plasm obtained, and everything else scaled upward while the member number increases. This gives everyone more reason to bring with them a full party of people, rather than giving a massive amount of incentive to do it with the fewest amount possible like right now, where the craft item at the end for instance can be sold for a large amount of gil and will drop either way, which makes it most profitable to do with few people and split the gil. This change is completely meaningless unless the craft item is the primary adjusted drop rate, and the Plasm follows suit. Anyone spamming this in 6-man runs has the gear, changing it is meaningless, but if you change the Plasm & Craft Item rates based on the number of people I am sure 18-man runs will look a lot better soon enough.

-I would also like to see them lower the DEF & EVA on the NMs a bit, which would allow 117 gear DDs to do more DMG & more easily deal DMG, no 119 DD will have any issues hitting anymore so at very least lowering the EVA changes nothing in the realm of 119 DDs, only those who have yet to obtain these weapons.

-Lastly I would say lower the Plasm cost on the boss weapons/gear. Why? Simple, as you have pointed out before it's a ton easier to get Skirmish gear so this should be made easier in my opinion due to that fact. It also stands to reason that this gear be lowered in cost since again, everyone who has completed this content has the weapons already, by changing the prices you are basically only helping new players and those who are trying to catch up, anyone who did this earlier has the drops and really doesn't benefit nor does it make it easier at all, only faster.

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I personally did not forget, no, however the fact you bring this up brings another question to the table. Did you forget how many buffers and debuffers you needed to beat NMs like Tojil before anyone fully geared in Adoulin stuff

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This is the key. Prior to the iLevel update we had 4 rolls, 6~7 songs and 2 geo debuffs on Tojil to go with R15 delve gear and stuff like Oats / Senbaak, only the best shells could get consistent wins. The only thing the iLevel update did was add a ton of attack / acc to the melee's and magic acc to the SCH's so you didn't need nearly as many buffs, better shells could now consistently get the wins and average players could if they leveled COR and GEO with minimal effort. Now that 6 man exists, all the older players who used to carry the average players have formed small groups for easier plasm farming. So now you got a bunch of average players who don't have the support nor experienced folks to get the win for them.

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-I would like to see drops balanced properly, either more Plasm/Drops for 18-man runs, with drop rates, Plasm obtained, and everything else scaled upward while the member number increases. This gives everyone more reason to bring with them a full party of people, rather than giving a massive amount of incentive to do it with the fewest amount possible like right now, where the craft item at the end for instance can be sold for a large amount of gil and will drop either way, which makes it most profitable to do with few people and split the gil. This change is completely meaningless unless the craft item is the primary adjusted drop rate, and the Plasm follows suit. Anyone spamming this in 6-man runs has the gear, changing it is meaningless, but if you change the Plasm & Craft Item rates based on the number of people I am sure 18-man runs will look a lot better soon enough.

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I agree with you 100% and I even made a thread about this. The rest I don't care for/agree with (I strongly am against weakening this content even MORE.) SE really made a mistake having the 18 man fights the same rate of drops as the 6 man. This also encourages people to bring mules over real players due to the fact its less competition for the end items to sell.