Please fix thief SE. Tired of being the joke job of FFXI for end game. Job Balance!

To expand on my idea... maybe make Assassin grant a 10% total enmity transfer to TA, then have the merits be an extra 3%/per instead... and collaborator should be reduced to a 30 second timer. Would make enmity control a much more active and viable job for THF.
Also would be cool to give THF a couple 'stances'... like-
Shadow- -15% DT when you're not the target of the mob, transfers 25% of your melee enmity to any target between you and your target, Boosts TAs enmity transfer
Antagonist- +15 enmity, crit rate bonus, critical att bonus on SA

Just ideas! Highly doubt we'll see anything like that from SE, would be quite a bit of work... besides, having TH is so super OP THF doesnt need anything else! (sarcasm)

Well, I'd also like to note something that they seem to keep passing up also about thief: Shouldn't they be stealing more stuff by now??? Like when we actually use the steal abilities shouldn't they be, I don't know, like either stealing 2 or even 3 times in a row or like at least stealing weapons and armor off of them more or something like that?

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Originally Posted by Blah

Well, I'd also like to note something that they seem to keep passing up also about thief: Shouldn't they be stealing more stuff by now??? Like when we actually use the steal abilities shouldn't they be, I don't know, like either stealing 2 or even 3 times in a row or like at least stealing weapons and armor off of them more or something like that?

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Agreed here. I don't know about end game, but where I am in the game right now, stealing has such a low success rate and I don't even bother with it most of the time.

Thieves should be able to steal temp items with a high rate of success, even from bosses. These temps could in turn be used to increase their combat efficiency. Steal+ gear could increase the chance of higher quality temps, including temps that would affect party members as well, such as Lucid Wings. Failed Steal attempts triggers Aura Steal, failed Despoil attempts should steal temps.

I have a supposition.

leave steal alone, allowing it to be used primarily for Aura Steal which has its purposes, and let Despoil be the ability that has a chance for temp items + Debuff.

But that's exactly what I suggested...

So, either she didn't read yours or she interpreted mine incorrectly?

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Originally Posted by Mirage

But that's exactly what I suggested...

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You know, I reread what you said like 30 times before i posted it to make sure. Yet... I see no edit tags so I must believe this.

Funny. I think its the "Failed Steal attempts trigger Aura Steal", which i interpreted, quite easily, to "If it fails to steal a temp item, Aura steal activates", and the following statement on despoil, lead me to believe you were implying both steal and despoil should have a chance to steal Temp items.. Guess I wasn't reading clearly

it's ok i forgive you

Ok I guess I'll put it here since this is as likely where I may get an answer. Does any1 know the, ah...hmmm base value of steal? I know it isn't erm...calculated the same as treasure hunter because at least that is documented and calculable (or is it calculatable?) But as far as I see...without any steal gear...it's...zero?

As far as i know, there have been no significant tests regarding steal rate, however I do believe it will vary based on the mob... so it'll be hard.

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Originally Posted by Blah

Ok I guess I'll put it here since this is as likely where I may get an answer. Does any1 know the, ah...hmmm base value of steal? I know it isn't erm...calculated the same as treasure hunter because at least that is documented and calculable (or is it calculatable?) But as far as I see...without any steal gear...it's...zero?

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It's definitely not zero when using no steal gear. If anything. it seems to be based on your thf level vs the target's level.

Yeah but if that's the case it shouldn't have taken Olor 30+ times to steal that Quadav stew, unless you were trying from the wrong mobs, Bronze Quadav is the one I usually successfully steal from Olor. At any rate there should be a better way to calculate it because if we go by the websites *rolls eyes* be higher than the mob, stand behind them/ lower their health a bit 1st and voila successful.

Most if not akl speculation would be unfounded, or placebo effects at work, unfortunately.

There is simply no tests on steal, considering in all likeliness the item stolen, and the mob, and your level all could play a part in it, so even if you go out and steal from the same mob 1000 times for a solid sample, it'll likely be different and moot for any other mob, which is why no ones bothered to try and build a reasonable formula for steal rate.

It would be a near impossible task, not entirely because of a 5 minute recast, and for such little payoff, its not worth the time of effort. Best advice is to equip your steal+ gear, for whatever little effect it may have.

So more or less, no ones tested it cause no one cares. Stealing items has never been worth a squat, and it usually takes no more than a handful of attempts for quest items (Test or AF stew stuff), so just equip your steal+ gear (WhichisprobablyasplaceboasTH+) and have at it.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

Most if not akl speculation would be unfounded, or placebo effects at work, unfortunately.

There is simply no tests on steal, considering in all likeliness the item stolen, and the mob, and your level all could play a part in it, so even if you go out and steal from the same mob 1000 times for a solid sample, it'll likely be different and moot for any other mob, which is why no ones bothered to try and build a reasonable formula for steal rate.

It would be a near impossible task, not entirely because of a 5 minute recast, and for such little payoff, its not worth the time of effort. Best advice is to equip your steal+ gear, for whatever little effect it may have.

So more or less, no ones tested it cause no one cares. Stealing items has never been worth a squat, and it usually takes no more than a handful of attempts for quest items (Test or AF stew stuff), so just equip your steal+ gear (WhichisprobablyasplaceboasTH+) and have at it.

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And if it really is just that random they need to fix that too. And don't say no one cares because when they do have you stealing to complete a quest or, as I understand it for endgame stuff, stealing to gain enmity or auras, it IS important and should be calculated much more reliably.

Yah, But, I would probably cry if a THF update came and it was on steal %.

Anywho, new Weapons/shield/etc Job specific stuff being added soon. I'm just going to sit my guess here and suspect the THF weapon will have glorious amounts of AGI, Evasion, and Probably Treasure Hunter. Cause if it was useful FFXI would collapse in itself and die. Double so if the item has TH on it.

I hate when I'm right.

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/img/...936/apr_07.jpg

Anyone wanna guess the stats?

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new Weapons/shield/etc Job specific stuff being added soon. I'm just going to sit my guess here and suspect the THF weapon will have glorious amounts of AGI, Evasion, and Probably Treasure Hunter.

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Actual Translation"

"Dmg:102, Delay:200, AGI+10, Evasion+22, Dagger/Parrying Skill+242, M.Acc skill+188, Enmity-10, WSD+5%, TH+1"

I can't believe my sarcastically narcissistic "Worst case scenario" spitball of this new "mythic equivalent" (their words on the page i got the picture from) weapon was 100% spot on. I literally just sh*t out the worst possible combination of stats i could think of off the top of my head, and I was dead on. Its literally as useless as they could possibly make it, less we forget WSD+ has never worked in the offhand outside of Magian weapons, so the stat may as well not exist.

I'd like to say more, but nothing really needs to be said. I want to look at the positives, but I'm blinded by the utter disappointment of 2 years of "please remove Thief's knife" and what do they do? give as another Thief knife. Absolutely heartrendingly astonishing.

At least the good news is that enmity-10 and WSD+5% is pretty solid.

It is, its a redeeming quality, the WSD+5% anyway. Hopefully it'll work offhand, while not making it a solid offhand for anything but TH, it'll be a nice offhand if/when we're asked to use it.

to be fair though, almost all ilv daggers have evasion on them

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Originally Posted by Blah

Yeah but if that's the case it shouldn't have taken Olor 30+ times to steal that Quadav stew, unless you were trying from the wrong mobs, Bronze Quadav is the one I usually successfully steal from Olor

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I looked for Olor's post, but couldn't see it so I don't know what tactics (if any) he was employing. However, when I went to get my own quadav stew at level 40, I followed the currently acknowledged facts about steal rate that were on allakhazam at the time, which were:

Steal from behind. Steal while the enemy is casting/TPing/otherwise distracted by another player.

as memory serves, I had 1 fail from using sneak then trying to steal whist not engaged, then 2nd attempt, I picked a zicon quadav, didn't engage, but locked on from a distance. Ran up to it without sneak to agro it, it started to nuke me, so I spun around it while it was casting (now you see why I locked on without engaging) and stole the stew from behind. No steal+ gear (I was 0/3 on JEJ)

I have an idea!

Change our 1hr "Larceny" into "Grand Larceny", steal all beneficial effects from the target, not just 1.

Seems like it makes way more sense... I mean, its a 1 hour, you'd think It'd be grand.

I was kinda half joking, but seriously, I need some Grand larceny, Larceny just don't cut it anymore, need to step up my thieving.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I have an idea!

Change our 1hr "Larceny" into "Grand Larceny", steal all beneficial effects from the target, not just 1.

Seems like it makes way more sense... I mean, its a 1 hour, you'd think It'd be grand.

I was kinda half joking, but seriously, I need some Grand larceny, Larceny just don't cut it anymore, need to step up my thieving.

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Oh no, it's true if we be thieves we need to be GOOD thieves. STEAL IT ALL I SAY! NOT SOME, ALL!!

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I looked for Olor's post, but couldn't see it so I don't know what tactics (if any) he was employing. However, when I went to get my own quadav stew at level 40, I followed the currently acknowledged facts about steal rate that were on allakhazam at the time, which were:

Steal from behind. Steal while the enemy is casting/TPing/otherwise distracted by another player.

as memory serves, I had 1 fail from using sneak then trying to steal whist not engaged, then 2nd attempt, I picked a zicon quadav, didn't engage, but locked on from a distance. Ran up to it without sneak to agro it, it started to nuke me, so I spun around it while it was casting (now you see why I locked on without engaging) and stole the stew from behind. No steal+ gear (I was 0/3 on JEJ)

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I did from behind, did with sneak, did before engaging, after engaging, all the time... anyway just had bad luck, which is pretty much what happens some times and why it is bad to have really important quests based around something so gimmicky and prone to fail.

Anyway, one more super duper annoying thing I will need to work on at some point. ATM I need to finish COP so getting the base AF is less important than that.

Well, new weapons come and gone, still no I.lv Crossbow or Gun for THF... I mean would it have been that hard to add THF to the gun from Skirmish IV? =.=

Oh well, that dagger looks pretty cool, nice damage... kinda crazy delay, hopefully good augments. At least my RDM will be able to use it too!

See my sig.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

See my sig.

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Your sig can be seen from the moon.

Please remove it at once, or learn how to crop it properly and then crop it down to a sensible size! It's not only too wide, but also about 4 times too high, with most of the space taken up with white. And is the skull actually supposed to be on top of the text so that it can't be read?

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Originally Posted by Bebekeke

And is the skull actually supposed to be on top of the text so that it can't be read?

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It's not a skull. Google "trollface" and you will understand what it actually means.

pls delete it, it offends me with the skull

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

It's not a skull. Google "trollface" and you will understand what it actually means.

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OK, don't remove it. I found that adding you to my ignore list removes the unsightly thing from my screen :)

I have a feeling that I won't be the only one

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Originally Posted by Bebekeke

OK, don't remove it. I found that adding you to my ignore list removes the unsightly thing from my screen :)

I have a feeling that I won't be the only one

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Well Adblock plus takes care of it too but I'm thinking of ignore listing just on principle. Maybe we should report to the mods.

guess ill say this. while thf may need adjusting as someone who makes groups there are jobs i like and jobs i don't. i don't care if your the best geared person on the server. if i don't like your job your not coming period. don't like it put a group together yourself. for me puppet i hate it. to me its a joke. ill NEVER invite a puppet . its not personal. i just don't feel i am obligated to bring something i don't want as i am doing the work of putting it together. don't like it fine u put it together.

Anyone else's LS insist that they equip Sandung/Thief's Knife for events?

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Anyone else's LS insist that they equip Sandung/Thief's Knife for events?

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You don't need those if you have the chaac belt. Which is sort of annoying since thf isn't really a job that gets invited to delve. Maybe when Empyrean gets reforged they will put one more TH on the feet and there will be no need.

Just as a side note as it may not be known, in SoA areas with Ionis on Thf only needs +3 TH to cap. Ionis gives +2 TH.

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Originally Posted by Raydeus

Yeah, the one thing I'd like to see is a reduction in SA/TA/Hide timers along with Hide also applying for sound instead of just sight.

Other than that I can't really say much since I've been allergic to "end game" grind crap since forever. If there's End-Game LS requirements to an activity then I have no interest whatsoever in it.
d(^^d)

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Or just make SA/TA a stance so that either of the 2 is up full time.

TH gear: lock the Initial TH value at whatever Thf can lay down with no gear as it works today (TH 3 or 4?). Make al the TH+ gear increase proc percentage on critical hit instead of increasing initial value (or raising said value after you remember to put it on) and have it stack with the proc increase Thf gets on job points. For example Thf starts fight first proc is th4, Thf with no JP can naturally raise TH on any crit hit initially 5% of the time and equipped with Max TH (Sandung Chaac Belt Plunderers Armlets +1 etc. have up to 10% additional proc rate on crit hit to raise the TH value over time. Job point additions would be I addition to this. Caps on maximum TH value applied should probably stay the same. There is a trade off idea though too, as I'll mention later.

In things that drop boxes having TH to slightly increase the chances of personal drops would make them a coveted addition to any of that content.

Damage/ survivability and utility.: the trade off I mentioned before, give Thf a stance where they trade off crit hits for very high evasion boost to both physical and magical attacks. Kills auto attack damage but the option should remain to Thf to prioritize dodging instead of hitting harder. This would allow them to still contribute to damage and setting up SCs and enmity control while not becoming overly taxing on healers. And would allow Thf to do more that lay on TH and run away.

Also Thf needs a blunt weaponskill on dagger that has decent damage to things that are vulnerable to it and a chance to stun. Real thiefs made efficient use of Black Jacks a short blunt instrument used by larcenists to subdue a mark instead of killing him or her. But there's nothing saying any Thf in Vanadiel wouldn't use the hilt of their dagger to black jack an opponent.

All told I think these changes would keep Thf in the fight for end game and strike a balance with utility and survivability, as well as allowing the TH to build up much faster when it matters.

Why is this thread still alive? THF is one of the top DDs in the game now. The only fix it needs is the same fix that every other close range DD needs: the ability to survive close range. That arguement belongs on a general thread about all DDs, not on a THF thread.

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Originally Posted by Malichi

TH gear: lock the Initial TH value at whatever Thf can lay down with no gear as it works today (TH 3 or 4?). Make al the TH+ gear increase proc percentage on critical hit instead of increasing initial value (or raising said value after you remember to put it on) and have it stack with the proc increase Thf gets on job points. For example Thf starts fight first proc is th4, Thf with no JP can naturally raise TH on any crit hit initially 5% of the time and equipped with Max TH (Sandung Chaac Belt Plunderers Armlets +1 etc. have up to 10% additional proc rate on crit hit to raise the TH value over time. Job point additions would be I addition to this. Caps on maximum TH value applied should probably stay the same. There is a trade off idea though too, as I'll mention later.

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I could be misunderstanding, but why would you want TH to start at trait-only level instead of starting at trait+gear level?

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Originally Posted by Zeldar

Why is this thread still alive? THF is one of the top DDs in the game now. The only fix it needs is the same fix that every other close range DD needs: the ability to survive close range. That arguement belongs on a general thread about all DDs, not on a THF thread.

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It wasn't, it's a year and a half necro.

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Originally Posted by Catmato

I could be misunderstanding, but why would you want TH to start at trait-only level instead of starting at trait+gear level?

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Lately I have heard a lot of complaints about TH not activating fast enough or at all I know it's there even if you don't see it proc. These days though when you have teams killing NMs super fast because they may have to just to tsurvive the encounter I would hope a system like the one I presented would allow TH to proc at a much higher rate. When you have 4 Bard songs geo haste and and Haste 2 available to support your thief you should be able to get something out of all that planning. The way is set up now I have seen a Thf go in and no one has any idea if TH landed or not before the mob is dead. Oh and trait would be for initial value gear would be for chance to upgrade from proc. Conceivably a master Thf would be able to proc at 23 (JP) +5 (native) + 10% (gear) for 38% chance of upgrading TH value on any given crit swing. I proposed a lower initial value to strike a balance for higher gains in the end. Especially since I was also pitching an option of survivability where the THF would have to basically turn their crit rate off to dodge instead.