Delve Deeper into Seekers of Adoulin!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mnejing

Camate forgot to list the areas.

---

Sorry about that! The list of the areas got cut out, but I've edited my post. Thanks for pointing that out!

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(.

Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

Camate can you verify if the same items that drop from NMs can be purchased with plasm? Last time with Legion, there was some definite confusion when the initial posts implied that you could purchase direct drops from NMs with legion points. Then it turned out that the items obtainable in exchange for legion points were entirely different.

And I was mostly kidding when I said the Endgame of SoA would be Yggdrasil

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(.

Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

---

Couldn't agree with you more, accessing Skirmish is ridiculous at the moment, SE need to increase the rate in which Skirmish pops can be obtained outside the AH.

I'm also worried about the rewards from Delve. If you look on the Seekers of Adoulin website, you can see the example of equipment obtained. For those who haven't seen it;
Mikinaak Breastplate [Body]
DEF:80 STR+15 VIT+15 Acc+18 Atk+18 PDT-3%
Lv.99 WAR/PLD/DRK/BST/SAM/DRG

Highest example of augment is; Atk+10 Acc+6 STR+1

If SE are designing Delve for players who have managed to complete Wildskeeper Reives, Skirmish, Neo Salvage and Neo Nyzul, then why is the example of equipment obtained through Delve worse then that obtained through "easier" events? Fair enough if this is just a bad example, but it's given me a bad feeling about the event as a whole.

Delve looks like Legion 2.0 which hardly anyone will get to do. I always wanted to do legion but never seen any shouts for it.

About that body, if there is no store tp or double/triple attack on it its not even going to be that worthwhile but who knows what other aguments you could get. Sounds almost as bad as Synergy aguments, keep doing the same event over and over to randomly get some augment.

Mikinaak Breastplate [Body]
DEF:80 STR+15 VIT+15 Acc+18 Atk+18 PDT-3%
Lv.99 WAR/PLD/DRK/BST/SAM/DRG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Karbuncle

i'm kinda worried it pretty much sounds like Skirmish II, which means accessing the content is going to be the hardest part of it all :(. Thats the most unfun part, but outside of that, Base stuff, Augmentable... Skirmish, yup. Sounds good though. I mean, God just make it easier to access...

---

Because making accessible content for the general population is very hard for them lol. Plus give it a year or so - and they probably let everyone go at it, all the new contents are designed as "barrier" to give you just enough incentive but making sure that progress is severely limited so that only 5% of the population can try it and beta test it for them - but they present it so that you will feel "privileged" for being able to do so. If enough people complaints, then they will just come back and tell you that they never intend for everyone to be able to try these, only the hardcore of the elitist will get to do it...

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.

---

Its not Abyssea, they will never like it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

The power-grind keeps us interested. The next step up might be too hard for you currently, but in time, it'll be just right. You're getting hung up on the fact that hardcore content just recently released isn't casual yet. It will be someday. Just not today.

---

Not a problem of it being casual now or hardcore. Its about getting in to even try and find where you stand.

SE keeps doing the 50+ Fat people VS the Shih Tzu sized Dog Door mentality and Its really starting to piss us off.

Chance/Lottery/Grind isn't something thats Skillfully "Hardcore" or "Casual" rated, Its something incredibly stupid.

One could argue balance. Well thats a vision of "experience". Todays games of lock out rarity are dead, SE doesn't know that. Instead Skirmish and Nakauul should have been more easily accessible but the drop rates/items more difficult to obtain, so players could experience gameplay better to skillfully enhance their play style, and then SE could go back and re-balance the values to make the items/currency more abundant to participants, resulting in those who gained skill in the event to run their hopefully now well oiled machine of a group/alliance to maximize new reward tiers of balance.

Instead SE keeps the Doggy Door metaphorical crap in place.

I tend to run off on metaphors but whatever, enjoy this one...

Think of it like driving a car, you get your permit, you still have to drive a lot before you take the test, you need hands on experience. The way SE currently runs this is like this, heres the permit, I'd like to take you driving sometime but I'm to busy/its not a fullmoon/Go away, Law and Order's on right now/Etc. bullcrap, but oh, your driving test is in 1 week, good luck "Mr. No experience". aka Doomed to fail, outside some sort of miracle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calintzpso

Not a problem of it being casual now or hardcore. Its about getting in to even try and find where you stand.

---

Oh, so you want it to be more like NNI where everyone gets a chance to try every RL day, but if you're not up to snuff, then you'll never hit floor 100.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Oh, so you want it to be more like NNI where everyone gets a chance to try every RL day, but if you're not up to snuff, then you'll never hit floor 100.

---

Short answer, Yes.

A game that promotes Skillful play and cooperation with others is a game that is truly challenging and rewarding.

Not a game of Mindless Luck and Grind. And I'm not talking about luck w/ rewards.

Yes agree, everyone who is playing this game, regardless skill levels or gears should be able to try it without any restriction or gathering stupid items just to progress. Similar how the Neo events and Meeble, and pretty much some Abyssea events. We all get a chance to try and get better and practice, and bettering our selves and our gears. Right now you can't even try unless you are rich, extremely lucky, or a combination of both. I rather deal with the stupid limited tags than these new SoA events that require you "farm" or just buy those parts.

And lets not kid ourselves and keep believing these lies, those SoA are designed to halt progress, until they feel that sufficient payments have been made and 6-12 months have passed, then they will come back and adjust it. So you can either take it as it is, or take a long break again, or just pay to play when you deemed the content is worth paying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calintzpso

Short answer, Yes.

A game that promotes Skillful play and cooperation with others is a game that is truly challenging and rewarding.

Not a game of Mindless Luck and Grind. And I'm not talking about luck w/ rewards.

---

What's your long answer then, because it really sounds like what you want then is mission final battles. Something you only need to do once as long as you win, then you never have to do it again. While I would probably enjoy the rush at first, that rush would wear off quickly when I realize my character no longer has any room to grow no matter how much grinding I'm willing to do.

Not sure about growth on your character(s). The game is basically now all about doing more BCNMs for gears. And grinding more for gears, especially when you factor those random numbers that will come with the augmenting system they are proposing. Which translate to more grinding for the said events to get better augments so you can get incremental boost in your damage to enable you to do more of these so called events for more gears. On and on it goes, grind for gears to infinity and beyond.

They also make sure that you can't do these events so easily. It's no longer about 24 hours real life limitation, or 3 days limitation - all these new contents are atrocious beyond belief - they are designed to halt your progress. If they want us to be better players, then let us try the new contents ASAP, over and over, so we can better ourselves and come up with a strategy to beat it, and WIN, over and over. People get better by practice, they don't get better by whacking the roots over and over - or doing run around quests. Stop putting BS hoops that everyone has to jump through just to try it.

I like how Delve sounds except the requirements to enter, thats bad, also not happy about needing larger parties, while it is nice to have some events like that, I personally hate them, much rather small groups for events where I can be more familiar with the people I am going with and we can work well together.

Here's a basic analogy for what's going on:

Instead of giving that genius in the front of the class an A+ and letting him skip a grade occasionally, SE is making everyone do the work that is challenging to him and then forcing them to stay back a grade to make it up next year when they inevitably fail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Demon6324236

I like how Delve sounds except the requirements to enter, thats bad, also not happy about needing larger parties, while it is nice to have some events like that, I personally hate them, much rather small groups for events where I can be more familiar with the people I am going with and we can work well together.

---

Yup sounds good on paper, poorly executed - nothing new here. What is baffling - they managed to did good content after Abyssea, adopted the slow and steady progression idea, your own reward system (and the atrocious RNG rewards), good variety of tasks on Meeble. Yet they fail to innovate when it comes to SoA?? We should all be able to try new contents ASAP without having to "work" to collect the various scraps. Players should only be getting better for trying the battle over and over and finding out which strategy works best to annihilate enemies and consume contents (and rewards). We should not be dealing with various stale tactics to hinder our progress and prevent us from actually trying the battle contents....

What should the grind be then? They tried completely accessible battles with low drop rates for the grind (voidwatch) and people complained that drop rates are too low. They tried completely accessible dungeon crawls which were extraordinarily difficult but had very high drop rates (NNI), and people complained that it was too "luck based" because with their average of 10 floor-ups per run, they had a 0% chance of reaching floor 100. They tried completely accessible boss rushes which were extraordinarily difficult (legion) and people complained that it's too much of a gear check.

It sounds to me like people don't want to grind entry items for events because that takes time. They don't want to grind difficult events because practice and learning from mistakes takes time. They don't want to grind really easy kills with really low drop rates because that takes time. They don't want an event which requires them to get better equipment to do because that takes time.

If no grind is an acceptable grind, then you don't actually want to play the game, you just want to win it and be done with it.

It's known as the perfect imbalance in the game development field, something SE stretches and constantly lets run wild unchecked, and they let it get pulled that way by elitist pricks. If you don't believe this, look at the job to job comparison among the "elitists". Let me link you to a good webisode I watch that will make some hidden faults more apparent. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/epi...fect-imbalance

SE falls towards the haphazard comment near the start of that video. If you need a prime example. RDM.

Voidwatch is mostly flopping due to core job mechanical issues and episodic chapter restrictions, which is SE's constant way of bottle necking. If people could freely traverse and start any tier of Voidwatch battle with a group of members of their choice, the system would be better off. Now don't get me wrong, We can do this, sorta...only if you have someone with the right level abyssite to summon the battle, oh and warps to gather to the spot in a timely visit. I still lack all of Jeuno wins due to taking a break when Voidwatch came out, Coming back no one wants to do those piss poor fights. Linkshells of yesteryear are now 6-10 active people at most. I haven't seen a shout for the fights I need in over 6 weeks, and the last group I tried to make was a group of 7-8 people who decided they had to go afk after 30 mins of gathering to go have comas/push grandma down the stairs/or their pool caught fire. So when I do Jeuno, I have to walk some out of to some out of way places vs others warping, and I only can hold 4 voidstones on me, so when a group does x6 they aren't happy when I have to quick restock which I wish was easier.

For the Neo things, that falls under a personal problem for the people you run the event with. The system is good in place, it could be a bit more forgiving with those lamp floors and I'm sure I'm not the only one who agrees. But the only issue with NNI that I can see is the individuals involved who run it like its a all or nothing system. In working out in RL we would call that a Gut Check. Gut checks are great, but you can't depend on them as a sure system. I recall NNI allows you to set your goal without overshooting the level aimed for now. I also recall you are given a currency like Key Item for hitting the goal/killing a boss # times, of which can be turned in for armor at a NPC. Personal Pacing is the only issue people really have. Floor 100 is great and all since everyone gets a Key Item for a armor of their choice plus the boss drops an extra. But you could settle for floor 80 instead and just work at it longer while still getting progress. To gun for floor 100 it becomes a personal gamble. How much you're willing to gamble on the system determines your progress in general. People make a poor goal choices in NNI and when they aren't rewarded, they blame the system. As is, NNI is the most balanced of the 3 you mentioned. To succeed in NNI you need to work cooperatively with the abilities of your group and set your goals based on that. If you can't do that, you aren't a team player. Patience and cooperation will help skill your group, so that someday either in a long time, or short time, you can gun for a higher goal or be able to muster the ability to do a gut check on a more often schedule.

Legion falls under a very basic system, and I don't feel I have the right to comment to much on it as I haven't done it AT ALL since it's release. From what I can observe, Its a boss rush of the 90s video games meets dynamis treasure pools. Appears to me it just needs a minimum 3 tanks and 3 good healers to hold the initial spawns, and since the next wave doesn't spawn until the first wave is killed. This is a pace based event. If your group can't keep a good pace, they the group needs to work on that to further themselves. But it doesn't keep the group from at least trying which was the entire basis of my comments.

It's the goldilock dilemma, need to be exactly just right which is never going to happen for FFXI. At the very least most of the previous endgame events let you go and try it without forcing you to gather various parts that are super rare drops (and you need more than one) just to have a chance to try it. Sure none are the PERFECT one but it gives you variety - yes everything in the game is purely luck based. Even Abyssea is somewhat luck based - you can trigger the yellow but the drop is still random out of 4 possible job seals.

Now we are just being "blocked" at every possible turn by the developers. And every single steps you take on SoA contents are designed to slow down your progress and forced you to grind - and these are not fun grind mind you. Keep your optimistic attitude but don't be blinded by faith alone that it will get better because you know it will not get better soon. We are talking a year or even two years for a hint of improvement. They are severely understaffed - and their tried and true strategy is to make sure that everyone is halted on progression and it will take you thousands of needed items just to get your random augments so you can do it over and over and over and over....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

and their tried and true strategy is to make sure that everyone is halted on progression and it will take you thousands of needed items just to get your random augments so you can do it over and over and over and over....

---

Grind, yes, you now understand the concept of grind. A necessary concept in any game. Even solitaire has grind. You still have not answered where the grind should come from, though you obviously believe the grind should not be getting access to the final fight, it should be something else. So what should the grind be?

Or should the grind not exist at all?

Solitaire has grind? That's...lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Grind, yes, you now understand the concept of grind. A necessary concept in any game. Even solitaire has grind. You still have not answered where the grind should come from, though you obviously believe the grind should not be getting access to the final fight, it should be something else. So what should the grind be? Or should the grind not exist at all?

---

Stop thinking you are so smart and way above everyone else... I understand grind just fine, FFXI is all about grind and not much else. Everything about this game is grind. And there are many types of grind though nothing come close as atrocious as SoA new type of grinds that is blatantly designed to let you not progressing at all but in a very slow baby steps.

Magian Trials weapon is a grind. Every single one of them. But they don't make you spend hours to collect various parts, battling various NMs before you even get your base weapon. "Battling the NMs" and getting better at it is THE GRIND. In most cases, just battling the same normal mobs x 300-600 is the grind. Or doing dynamis for 6 months is the grind - but you don't need to jump so many hoops every time you want to do dynamis. Myhthic is probably the closest to this "new" type of grind and the fact you need your base weapons dropped from normal fodder mobs in dynamis.

None of the NEO events ask you to jump through so many hoops every single time you want to do it. You may be asked to do some missions or some quests ONCE to get key items - or achieve certain ranks. You don't need to gather a bunch of things for Voidwatch, just one person who can pop the NMs. Meeble does not ask you to run around vanadiel just to try it, you can either kill the mini boss again for key items or buy them - to repeat the final boss.

It is plain as day how the grind for SoA is. No one is so dumb and thick to not being able to see it through. Basically various endgames events where you try to augment your base weapons or armors over and over, till kingdom come or new events are introduced. I would rather just have ONE key items and tags that I can use to access these. Put it on 24 hours - 72 hours cool down if they need their stupid "gated wall" but don't force us to gather different parts of simulacrum just to be able to enter. Make it that we can purchase these parts at reasonable amount of bayld or gills similar to the concept of cels for void watch. Then let us actually fight these new NMs over and over and grind it and getting better at it. And come up with new strategies that actually trump and decimate their game design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

What should the grind be then? They tried completely accessible battles with low drop rates for the grind (voidwatch) and people complained that drop rates are too low. They tried completely accessible dungeon crawls which were extraordinarily difficult but had very high drop rates (NNI), and people complained that it was too "luck based" because with their average of 10 floor-ups per run, they had a 0% chance of reaching floor 100. They tried completely accessible boss rushes which were extraordinarily difficult (legion) and people complained that it's too much of a gear check.

It sounds to me like people don't want to grind entry items for events because that takes time. They don't want to grind difficult events because practice and learning from mistakes takes time. They don't want to grind really easy kills with really low drop rates because that takes time. They don't want an event which requires them to get better equipment to do because that takes time.

If no grind is an acceptable grind, then you don't actually want to play the game, you just want to win it and be done with it.

---

agree about needing some grind, what I don't like is the item needed to enter being <1% drop (if it's same as skirmish parts)i'd rather it being like naak pop after next update (high bayld purchase, price lower with your coallition ranks), coaltion reward ( once each X impr used, the highest you're ranked, the less you need)

and the augment system is not as random as the naysayer say, it's step augment
augment it=> get rank 1 augment
augment it again to get rank2
...

it is sad to see that certain people here thinks that the "old" FFXI wasn't worse if not as bad in terms of blockage like rare drop requirements or stupid repop timers while competing with several other linkshells and/or solo/duo/whatever farmers for participation in end game events. SE has been rapidly making the game much more casual friendly since the first abyssea came out but some people keep freaking out about the accessibility of the newer content... some people just whine for the sake of whining.

how about doing much more accessible events like meebles, NNI, dynamis etc. while also getting bayld stuff and saving more for later, rather than freaking out about the newest events that you won't be able to get to do with a competable group to win and get shinies unless you are a hardcore player anyway? if you have no time to grind pop items or whatever to access and the manpower to win those events, then you should put your priorities right and focus on much more accessible events which still has lots of strong loot. this game is so rich in content that it has something for every type of players. people just need to "see" and not just "look".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Stop thinking you are so smart and way above everyone else... I understand grind just fine, FFXI is all about grind and not much else. Everything about this game is grind. And there are many types of grind though nothing come close as atrocious as SoA new type of grinds that is blatantly designed to let you not progressing at all but in a very slow baby steps.

---

If I thought I were so much smarter and way above everyone else, I wouldn't deign to speak here. I am no smarter, nor any better than anyone else on these forums. I apologize if my forum "voice" makes it sound like I'm constantly condescending. I assure you that's not my intention.

My intention is to get a straight answer instead of evading a question which is hard to answer because there is no universally accepted answer. Grind is necessary for a game. There needs to be a time sink somewhere in there. Which time sink is acceptable?

Quote:

---

Meeble does not ask you to run around vanadiel just to try it, you can either kill the mini boss again for key items or buy them - to repeat the final boss.

---

Meebles? It's the same damned thing as skirmish. You don't grind Umaghrk 15 times in one day unless you're willing to spend 15 million gil per person. No, you burn 25 days worth of pheromones to do 25 runs to get access to Umaghrk and kill him once then you start over. Those 25 runs before aren't practice for Umaghrk anymore than smacking roots and bees around is practice for skirmish. It's grind designed to delay you from getting all of Umaghrk's drops too soon. It's designed to prolong you playing the game so you don't just go immediately from your current situation to your goal (like just looking at all the cards and organizing them in 4 neat stacks, completely circumventing the rules of solitaire).

So in meebles, you can spend millions of gil or farm 25 wins, or some combination of both. In skirmish, you can spend millions of gil, farm pyres, farm HELM, complete reives, complete coalition assignments, or some combination of those. Why is meebles grind better again?

Quote:

---

Meebles? It's the same damned thing as skirmish.

---

Not... entirely true. Though i don't know the argument at hold here, and i see your point. But my biggest complaint about Skirmish is not its difficulty or anything, its that its stupidly hard to even enter for most all players. If you purchase all 3 pieces, You're going to spend about 8-12mil if you buy all Tier I items, which divided by 6 is still a bout 1.3~2mil a piece, while not a whole lot, is the single most expensive entrance fee for any event in FFXI history.

Coupled with the fact you'd have to find the item on the AH, cause the chances of you finding one otherwise is probably about the same odds of you getting a Coruscanti or any other pulse weapon. The event is just ludicrous to enter, the main way of accessing an event shouldn't be shopping the AH with 12 mil in your pocket ready to spend.

If they were going to make it super expensive, they could have at least sold each piece from an NPC For ~3mil to help burn some gil out of the market too, stave off the minor inflation from Blinkers. (While not as bad as the 07(?) Inflation.. *chills*)

I can see the argument of it perhaps being too hard to enter right now, and I would imagine that's partly by design because they don't want the game to be flooded with these ridiculous new weapons so quickly. If it's just a matter of making the pieces needed for entry less rare, that's an argument I could see eye-to-eye with, as long as it's within moderation.

Perhaps that is the light I should view these arguments in instead of seeing them as "we have to grind things which are not the final event itself in order to get access to the final event when we should just be grinding the final event and getting better at it." Because that point of view I completely disagree with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yinnyth

If it's just a matter of making the pieces needed for entry less rare, that's an argument I could see eye-to-eye with, as long as it's within moderation.

---

Thats one thing I find funny about the entire thing with people complaining about Skirmish. I have yet to do it myself but people complaining they need to be cheaper need to realize its a matter of SE making it more common, SE does not effect AH prices, players do.

Quote:

---

Perhaps that is the light I should view these arguments in instead of seeing them as "we have to grind things which are not the final event itself in order to get access to the final event when we should just be grinding the final event and getting better at it." Because that point of view I completely disagree with.

---

Well in all honesty its quite impossible to use another event to practice for the one your doing in most cases. For instance, I can fight Samursk all day in Meebles but it will never be the same as fighting Lord Monkey Face, because they are completely different mobs and need different strats to win against them. Basically, the practice isn't practice, its another mob entirely. The same goes for this and roots probably, roots you have to kill an lifeless object which can not hurt you while keeping off smaller pest enemies which can fight back. Delve and Skirmish from what I understand are more just a series of mobs or NMs to fight which will be strong and have a time limit.

I have to say, this team never learn the word or the concept of making things SIMPLE..... if you look at the wall of texts and the amount of works and run around you have to do for Delve... enough to make your head explode. Someone over there needs to learn how to create something simple, easy to understand, and addictive. SIMPLICITY is apparently very hard concept to grasp there, very odd indeed considering they are japanese. And the japanese have designed some truly wonderful products that are so deceptively simple yet very elegant and beautiful. Not this team apparently.

If we wanted the game to be simple, we wouldn't play an RPG. We'd play angry birds or tetris or stick and hoop. We chose FFXI because there's a certain level of complexity we want from the game we play.

Yeah let's see how popular those complex system with the majority, remember evolith system? Even synergy needs to be simplified. Life is already complex as it is, you don't need more complex game for the sake of "putting as many gated walls" as possible so that no one can progress through the contents. Magian Trial is simple enough, but just as effective to put "gated walls" without being overtly complex. Abyssea system is quite simple, so is Voidwatch, Legion, Meeble, etc...

You seem to think simplifying the game makes it better, but that is not always the case. I will admit complexity doesn't make something good on its own, but simplicity has the same shortcoming. It is very possible to make a complex system which is still fun.

Abyssea is not simple. There are stones you need to pick up from town. There are 9 different zones with very different rewards. Atmas and abyssites. Chests. NM progression. NM weaknesses. Repop behavior. Lights. Tic Tac Toe is simple. A person could explain how to never lose at Tic Tac Toe on a single sheet of paper. How many sheets of paper would it take for you to explain to someone who just got abyssea access how they get a level 90 empyrean?

Abyssea is complex, but it's good complexity. Without complexity in the game, there is no room for strategies.

Delve seems relatively straightforward. It seems confusing because there are many parts to it, and the descriptions arent very clear. (forgive me camate & co (>_<).