NA PS2 - One Last Shot

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Actually that's the whole idea here. If enough PS2 players are willing to put in the money it would take to make enough copies of the game for them, it proves there's money in it and SE, taking the money upfront, has the profits before it sinks money into the costs.

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They had a poll about this- the end result was there wasn't enough people that wanted it.

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Originally Posted by Fusionx

They had a poll about this- the end result was there wasn't enough people that wanted it.

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At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.

Let's look at this with some possible numbers
If you need, say, 5,000 people buying it at $30 per person to justify manufacture, that's
total funds required: 5,000 * $30 = $150,000

Let's assume most of that ($100,000) is a nonvariable setup/distribution cost. That means the per-person variable cost is $50,000/5,000 = $10

So, if only 3,000 people are willing to pay, they would need to pay on average $(100,000+(3,000*10)=130,000/3,000=$43.34)

Only 1,000 would make that $110 per person (on average).


So, at $30 per disc, there's not enough PS2 players to justify making it. But there might be enough PS2 players willing to pay enough to justify the cost of manufacture. That's the whole point of this thread in the first place, Fusion.

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Originally Posted by Werewolf

Maybe we can do a Kickstarter to drop PS2 support all together and finally get rid of some of the limitations! Seriously though, for the money you donate to keep FFXI running on that 13 year old system you can get a decent cheap PC, download the software and just play your account(s) on that.

I do agree it's stupid to keep PS2 support just for Japan and no other regions, either keep supporting it or drop it completely. The one reason I'm not thrilled about FFXIV is because is going to eventually be limited by the PS3 hardware, which by the time FFXIV actually comes out for the PS3 the next generation systems will almost be available and it's already outdated hardware.

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Ps2 limitations has been a buzz words since forever. Clearly the PS2 is outdated, but could you specify these limitations? The idea that PS2 is holding FFXI back I think is not really accurate considering that they just released a new expansion that can be supported by the PS2 and all other platforms. In all my years of playing, I have heard the PS2 limitations remark, and in some instances I can subscribe to it, yet I have never had anyone elaborate on exactly what those limitations are.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Actually that's the whole idea here. If enough PS2 players are willing to put in the money it would take to make enough copies of the game for them, it proves there's money in it and SE, taking the money upfront, has the profits before it sinks money into the costs.

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This isn't how business or manufacturing works. Everything is manufactured in bulk, SE custom making copies of FFXI for PS2 would not be beneficial for them. It seems that ppl forget that SE is a business, there bottom line is making money. PS2 is not profitable after all of these years in the United States. That is why they are not bringing the game out. Any thoughts of a NA PS2 release are wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by Perdition

This isn't how business or manufacturing works. Everything is manufactured in bulk, SE custom making copies of FFXI for PS2 would not be beneficial for them. It seems that ppl forget that SE is a business, there bottom line is making money. PS2 is not profitable after all of these years in the United States. That is why they are not bringing the game out. Any thoughts of a NA PS2 release are wishful thinking.

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You are wrong. There are sufficient projects on websites like Kickstarter and Indiegogo to prove this is a way that business and manufacturing can work. Proofs: Drifter, Dungeon Panic, The Trial of the Clone, Ouya, Pebble.

Using the old business model where there is a single set price, an NA PS2 SoA release would not justify its cost, yes. I have no illusions otherwise. That's why the core idea of this thread is to fund it with a new model that shows if the product justifies its cost before any significant amount of money is spent - and in fact that money comes in before it is spent, or shows definitively that there will not be enough money coming from customers to justify its cost, at which point no money is spent.

EDIT: And as for the 'everything is manufactured in bulk' -- that can be addressed easily. Since the backer-funded model starts with a minimum amount of money that needs to be raised, you include the minimum bulk manufacture cost into said minimum funding value. Any discs that are manufactured beyond what is spoken for by backers can be sold through SE's Online Store website for additional income. Those sales will be pure profit (or very nearly so) since the cost for their manufacture was already covered by the backer's funds before manufacture began.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The two main limitations of the PS2 are hard disk partition space and memory.

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Only limitation is memory. They already increased the partition from 8gb to 19gb last year for all PS2 (and PS3 BC) players, unless you think they're going to magically bloat the game by another 10gbs on PS2 within a couple years.

The only issue I see with starting this now is.

By the time you got funding, say whatever that magic number is, you will have lost some of the people willing to do it.
Everyday that goes by true FFXI fans in NA and UK playing on PS2 still are thinking about upgrading because they know they are getting left behind. Also, I would like anyone playing on PS2 who hasn't played on a PC or xbox try before requesting more support for PS2.

PS2 is 640x480
PC Well http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...Resolution.jpg
The 1st is closest to ps2. where the 3rd is what you can get with PC

I started on PS2 stopped reading disks and tossed it. Switched to laptop till my screen died. Switched to Xbox360 started getting Red ring of death and finally got a PC to play FFXIV on and I play FFXI on it. Out of all of that. PC is the best interface hands down. Followed by xbox360 for gaphics upgrades and 5.1 sound. And finally PS2, if it was the only option to play ffxi today I wouldn't play.


Please try and play on PC or xbox360 you will not regret it.

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Originally Posted by Cleer

The only issue I see with starting this now is.

By the time you got funding, say whatever that magic number is, you will have lost some of the people willing to do it.
Everyday that goes by true FFXI fans in NA and UK playing on PS2 still are thinking about upgrading because they know they are getting left behind. Also, I would like anyone playing on PS2 who hasn't played on a PC or xbox try before requesting more support for PS2.

PS2 is 640x480
PC Well http://images.wikia.com/ffxi/images/...Resolution.jpg
The 1st is closest to ps2. where the 3rd is what you can get with PC

I started on PS2 stopped reading disks and tossed it. Switched to laptop till my screen died. Switched to Xbox360 started getting Red ring of death and finally got a PC to play FFXIV on and I play FFXI on it. Out of all of that. PC is the best interface hands down. Followed by xbox360 for gaphics upgrades and 5.1 sound. And finally PS2, if it was the only option to play ffxi today I wouldn't play.


Please try and play on PC or xbox360 you will not regret it.

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keep in mind you can probably get a $20 PC at goodwill or something that will run this game fine and connect it to your TV with a $5 cable.

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At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.

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Actually, no price point was mentioned in the poll. Price was not a factor in player's voting.

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

Only limitation is memory. They already increased the partition from 8gb to 19gb last year for all PS2 (and PS3 BC) players, unless you think they're going to magically bloat the game by another 10gbs on PS2 within a couple years.

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hard disk space is a limitation. they can't increase the size of the partition infinitely.

edit sorry bout double post.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

Actually, no price point was mentioned in the poll. Price was not a factor in player's voting.

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It was not a factor in voting, but it was a factor in drawing conclusions from the results of the poll.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

It was not a factor in voting, but it was a factor in drawing conclusions from the results of the poll.

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install base is more what the survey is about. I'm sure that 5 of the 20 PS2 users would be willing to bribe SE with extra money to get them to press a disc for them, but number of users *actively playing on the PS2* is what they were looking for- not "how many people would buy the expansion if they pressed a disc for the US."

Also I don't think the small number of people that would throw extra money at SE would be enough make up for the small NA install base.

There's really just no reason to keep playing on a PS2 other than "I can't afford a used xbox or a 10 year old PC."

People always defend the PS2 and try to justify it. The fact is that continued support of it is taking limited development resources away from Square that could be focused elsewhere. Had Square decided to not release a Japanese PS2 edition of Seekers, imagine where else they could have devoted the extra manpower. Mogfarms? Further bug testing? More quests on launch? We'll never know.

This is what continued support for the PS2 is doing. Wasting resources for a very small population of players who should have converted to a new platform by now. Square should have let them continue to play in the Rotz -> Abyssea areas, sure, but to port Seekers to PS2, do some amount of bug testing, and manufacture a Japanese release? Geez, what a waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

install base is more what the survey is about. I'm sure that 5 of the 20 PS2 users would be willing to bribe SE with extra money to get them to press a disc for them, but number of users *actively playing on the PS2* is what they were looking for- not "how many people would buy the expansion if they pressed a disc for the US."

Also I don't think the small number of people that would throw extra money at SE would be enough make up for the small NA install base.

There's really just no reason to keep playing on a PS2 other than "I can't afford a used xbox or a 10 year old PC."

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So what's the problem with putting up a goal and allowing would-be patrons to try to meet it?

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Originally Posted by Volkai

So what's the problem with putting up a goal and allowing would-be patrons to try to meet it?

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There isn't.
Good luck though, you'll need it.

The whole point of the poll though was to determine the number of people that still played on the PS2- Not the number of people that would buy the expansion. I'm quite sure that the poll took place before the expansion was even announced, but I could be mistaken on that.

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

If I bought you a used xbox and a copy of the ultimate collection and shipped it to you right now would you use it?

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Originally Posted by Volkai

At the standard price, yes. That's the whole point of this - figure out if enough people are willing to pay enough money to make it worth doing.

Let's look at this with some possible numbers
If you need, say, 5,000 people buying it at $30 per person to justify manufacture, that's
total funds required: 5,000 * $30 = $150,000

Let's assume most of that ($100,000) is a nonvariable setup/distribution cost. That means the per-person variable cost is $50,000/5,000 = $10

So, if only 3,000 people are willing to pay, they would need to pay on average $(100,000+(3,000*10)=130,000/3,000=$43.34)

Only 1,000 would make that $110 per person (on average).


So, at $30 per disc, there's not enough PS2 players to justify making it. But there might be enough PS2 players willing to pay enough to justify the cost of manufacture. That's the whole point of this thread in the first place, Fusion.

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You also have to take into account the many retailers that are no longer willing to stock or sell new ps2 disc. Now ou could get around this by using the SE store but then SE would have to deal with he mess of shipping each disc over from a warehouse in Japan or expend more money to have a either a warehouse in the states or reline on Amazon to take care of it since gamestop wouldn't even offer it online.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There isn't.
Good luck though, you'll need it.

The whole point of the poll though was to determine the number of people that still played on the PS2- Not the number of people that would buy the expansion. I'm quite sure that the poll took place before the expansion was even announced, but I could be mistaken on that.

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

If I bought you a used xbox and a copy of the ultimate collection and shipped it to you right now would you use it?

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Me personally? I would either keep the used Xbox in reserve for when my current Xbox dies, or sell it for money. The UC I would probably keep in case my 2008 Collection and current UCSE discs both died.

This isn't about something I need. As I've posted numerous times in numerous places I largely moved to PC around the time if the WotG release, and added Xbox to the platforms I play on not quite a year ago.

But there are players who for whatever reason (not my business why that is) have continued to play on PS2, and this is about finding a solution for their being left behind that is not switching to a different platform - at this point, if you haven't switched from PS2 to PC or XBox you probably never will - and from what I can see, the idea I started this thread with is the one realistic option remaining, the only one that accounts for the realities of manufacturing costs and requires profit margins.

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Originally Posted by Ravenmore

You also have to take into account the many retailers that are no longer willing to stock or sell new ps2 disc. Now ou could get around this by using the SE store but then SE would have to deal with he mess of shipping each disc over from a warehouse in Japan or expend more money to have a either a warehouse in the states or reline on Amazon to take care of it since gamestop wouldn't even offer it online.

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Actually no, this is not something that needs to be taken into account. Because this model is backer-funded, the majority of buyers have already purchased their copy/copies before manufacturing began, and SE can ship them directly - and we know SE has that capability as they already do so with the XBox discs, and the costs of distributing to retail stores are greater than handling it yourself. Any remaining quantity after the backers' copies are sent out would probably go to whichever already-existing warehouse holds SE's remaining copies of the XBox version. Costs for everything but shipping the remaining copies to subsequent buyers are covered by the initial funding.

SE storing and shipping is not a new thing for them, as they already have two versions of physical product they currently warehouse somewhere and sell and ship in NA - XBox expansion and UCSE discs. No reason a PS2 version could not be added to that existing system unless the warehouse physically cannot hold it.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

But really, why are you clinging so hard to an antiquated platform? This whole debate is like fighting for your playstation 4, Wii U or xbox 720 to work on an old black and white TV with screw connectors. I've never understood this. Noboy cried when microsoft dropped support for Windows 95/98, nobody cried when later versions of Windows no longer supported 16 bit applications. Nobody was upset when publishers stopped releasing movies on VHS. This is no different. Sony is stopping production/sales of the PS2 even in Japan now, but stopped in the US long before that. The next expansion, if there is one, almost certainly wont be sold on the PS2 even in Japan.

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As for this 'clinging' question.. I'm not clinging. My case for a backer-funded PS2 NA SoA release opportunity is this:
1} There is no technical reason that not releasing this product holds back FFXI
a) For dropping PS2 support to have any impact, it would have to be done in all regions
b) JP PS2 has this product already.

2} Release of this product through a backer-funded method is inherently profitable
a) We acknowledge there is a certain minimum cost for producing a certain minimum number of discs
b) This model sets a minimum amount of money that must go to SE before SE acts in any way beyond setting up a backer goal and method for backers to contribute money
c1)> If the minimum is met, SE profits
c2)> If the minimum is not met, SE spends no money, thus no losses

d) If the minimum is not met, it also definitively and publicly shows that continuing to support the NA PS2 player base is not a profitable venture for SE. Because it shows this publicly, the clamor for continued PS2 support by NA players is likely to become more muted. Here you go, people that want the PS2 to die in a fire, this is your reason to support this.

Actually it's pretty much just those two points. Through this method the only potential loss is for people who, out of spite, want to deny current NA-region PS2 players access to the expansion. This does not cause SE to lose money, this does not hold back FFXI in any way. This does not prevent anyone from changing platforms. There is no good reason I can see for SE not to go ahead with this.

Poll is at 65 votes, and 38 of them plan to buy multiple copies of the PS2 version.

Really only 65 people that plan to get a PS2version if it's made, and only 2 that would break a $50 backing value? Yeah, that's not likely to succeed.... I really wonder what the minimum amount SE would need is.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

hard disk space is a limitation. they can't increase the size of the partition infinitely.

edit sorry bout double post.

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The realistic outlook is that XI will be dead by the time it hits 19gb of space. Even then, there's still more room they can partition away.

Unless they decide to completely overhaul XI for some unfathomable reason in the future, they're not hitting that 19gb cap in another decade at the rate the game gets new content.

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This isn't about something I need. As I've posted numerous times in numerous places I largely moved to PC around the time if the WotG release, and added Xbox to the platforms I play on not quite a year ago.

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If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it. It doesn't help you in any way,

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2} Release of this product through a backer-funded method is inherently profitable

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It's not profitable enough. Even if those 38 people were willing to pay $100, I still don't think they would do it. And if it got to that point, you could just spend that money on a used xbox or PC that would run the game better instead.

"Shut up and take my money" just doesn't work with SE. I think we can all tell that from their payment system :p

It's simple: they want people to upgrade, and those people should upgrade. This game is going to completely outlast the PS2- Why stick to it to the bitter end when you can make a small investment on a newer piece of hardware that is certainly more useful than just for FFXI (whereas there are so many PS2s out there that don't even read discs anymore that FFXI is all they're good for)

The PS2 was a great system, and it had a great run. But it's time to move on.

Would probably need to sell out a 5,000 copy run to break even on very bare bones production. Talking just the product manufacturing and shipping itself, not the bug testing for non-Japanese consoles. That is a number that's probably not attainable at this point.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it.

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And I suppose you think straight people have no business advocating for marriage equality, men have no business advocating women's rights, and so on?

I'm disappointed with you, Alhanalem. I thought you had more sense than this.

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Originally Posted by Sfchakan

Would probably need to sell out a 5,000 copy run to break even on very bare bones production. Talking just the product manufacturing and shipping itself, not the bug testing for non-Japanese consoles. That is a number that's probably not attainable at this point.

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Not every copy would have to sell for the money raised to match that amount, but I agree with you that it's unlikely the required money would be raised.

Still, I think the opportunity to raise this money should be given.

Any limitations due to hard drive size would necessarily affect the Xbox 360 before the PS2. The first HDDs that shipped with Xbox 360's were half the size of the HDD used by the PS2, and the recent redesign of the Xbox 360 means that it is now generally impossible to find a replacement proprietary HDD for older 360 models.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

And I suppose you think straight people have no business advocating for marriage equality, men have no business advocating women's rights, and so on?

I'm disappointed with you, Alhanalem. I thought you had more sense than this.

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There is a massive, collosal difference between begging for a ps2 SoA disk and fighting for civil rights. Don't you dare try to go there. I'm thoroughly disgusted that you would make wild assumptions about my views on things outside of this game based on a game issue.

Gotta back Alhanelem up on that one, that was going a bit far.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Any limitations due to hard drive size would necessarily affect the Xbox 360 before the PS2. The first HDDs that shipped with Xbox 360's were half the size of the HDD used by the PS2, and the recent redesign of the Xbox 360 means that it is now generally impossible to find a replacement proprietary HDD for older 360 models.

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The propriety drives in older 360s were so expensive that it'd basically be cheaper to just buy a 360 Slim instead.

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Originally Posted by Volkai

Not every copy would have to sell for the money raised to match that amount, but I agree with you that it's unlikely the required money would be raised.

Still, I think the opportunity to raise this money should be given.

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Or they can just give the expansion data as part of an FFXI update so every PS2 user has the data regardless of purchasing it. It'd be the only way SE would ever consider SoA in NA anyhow, since I doubt SCEA will even let them release a new disc-pressed PS2 game.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There is a massive, collosal difference between begging for a ps2 SoA disk and fighting for civil rights. Don't you dare try to go there. I'm thoroughly disgusted that you would make wild assumptions about my views on things outside of this game based on a game issue.

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You are right that there is a collosal difference between advocating for a possible NA PS2 SoA release and fighting for civil rights, but your statement made no such distinction. It was quite sweeping:

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

If you don't need it, you have no reason to be advocating for it. It doesn't help you in any way,

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I don't actually assume anything about your views on things outside of FFXI, particularly not based on a game issue. But your statement did not constrain its context to FFXI, and so I stated suppositions (not ones I belive to be true) to point out the full impact of what you've said.

I don't need to be a PS2-only player to advocate for an NA PS2 SoA release, please stop trying to say otherwise.

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Original post version:


What is it with today and people making sweeping generalized statements and then getting offended when I take them at their word instead of assuming unstated contextual qualifications to that statement?

Say what you mean.

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You are right that there is a collosal difference between advocating for a possible NA PS2 SoA release and fighting for civil rights, but your statement made no such distinction. It was quite sweeping:

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I shouldn't need to make such distinctions. It's obvious what this topic is about, and my post was about this topic and nothing else. You were simply playing with fire.

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I don't need to be a PS2-only player to advocate for an NA PS2 SoA release, please stop trying to say otherwise.

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Well, you're arguing for the sake of arguing then.

Here is how I see things, is the PS2 holding FFXI back? absolutely. If PS2 FFXI services were dropped would that change the game? absolutely not.

Square Enix's problem is they put all their eggs in one basket with FFXIV and then impatiently pushed Tanaka to release an unfinished product with the slogan "we can fix it as we go". Thanks to people like Wada who single handedly destroyed not just FFXIV but SE in general, successful ventures like FFXI had to pay the price.

Even if SE dropped FFXI PS2 support they would still not invest the money needed to upgrade FFXI past the PS2. I have been extremely dissatisfied with SE in general lately. SE has been coasting on past successes and making excuses for their failed current products (like Tanaka for example that they used as an escape goat for the original FFXIV). There needs to be accountability on SE's part and a realization that the quality that made square soft so popular is missing. A lot of this can be seen through the mass exodus of all the great game designers from SE.

I do not have all the information, I realize that but it is not hard to see a drastic drop in quality from Square Enix. I have always been a raging SE fan, however I wont just blindly buy SE products because of the name alone. I want to see SE succeed and I want them to become the company that i know they can be and used to be.

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Here is how I see things, is the PS2 holding FFXI back? absolutely. If PS2 FFXI services were dropped would that change the game? absolutely not.

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It would definitely change things- not in some big life altering way, but it would free up resources which would benefit the advancement of the remaining platforms.

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

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Originally Posted by Justinb

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

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My woman and I started on PS2 as well, but guess what? By the time Treasures came out, we wizened up and moved to PC.

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Originally Posted by Justinb

I've been playing FFXI for 8 years and even met my irl wife in the Kuftal Tunnel. I've been running my game this whole time on the PS2. I hate it that they came out with a new expansion that I can now not play with my wife! (she's a PC user). I don't have the money to invest in an X-box 360 or another computer just to play the new expansion! Frankly this is ruining the whole experience for me and my wife. I cannot play as the two new jobs, and I cannot go to the new continent. I cannot express how much I want them to come out with it in NA for the PS2 users. Why can they have it in Japan but not here?!?

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That's what this thread is about. The reasoning so far is that not enough people would buy it to justify the cost a manufacturing and distribution - and with a fixed-price model set at the same price as other platforms have paid, it's probably true. The way around that is this backer-funded model, where we know how much must be invested for SE to act, and the player base either invests enough to make it worth making for SE... or doesn't.

Just let it die.

The Japanese got the expansion on PS2 because there are enough Japanese PS2 players to make it economically viable to release. The North American players did not get the expansion on PS2 because there are not enough North American PS2 players to make it economically viable to release.

I'm not sure what about this scenario is so difficult to understand. If the North American PS2 player base was large enough we would have the expansion on PS2. End of story.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

It would definitely change things- not in some big life altering way, but it would free up resources which would benefit the advancement of the remaining platforms.

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They can't even be bothered to optimize both PC and 360 clients of FFXI, things that aren't bound by "PS2 limitations", I doubt they'd do much if they dropped PS2.


Anyone remember when XI's engine was supposed to receive a DX9 engine upgrade? Boy would that have solved a lot of problems with modern drivers being picky with the game....

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Originally Posted by Kaisha

They can't even be bothered to optimize both PC and 360 clients of FFXI, things that aren't bound by "PS2 limitations", I doubt they'd do much if they dropped PS2.


Anyone remember when XI's engine was supposed to receive a DX9 engine upgrade? Boy would that have solved a lot of problems with modern drivers being picky with the game....

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It uses directX 9 for window management, nothing else. It was never promised to recieve an "upgrade" outside of that. They had to do it for windowed mode.

Also in case someone brings it up, xbox controllers use XInput, not DirectX, so fully utilizing directX 9 would not, for instance, solve the xbox controller troubles some people have complained about.

Still, it's more likely to happen if the PS2 is removed from the picture than if it isn't. Cynicism isn't a justification for continuing to support an ancient platform.