Enmity System Explanation and Planned Adjustments

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings everyone!

Thanks for all the feedback on enmity. Just as Producer Matsui has mentioned, we will be performing on-going adjustments to the enmity system and will start by working on laying the groundwork and the essential features.

Once the groundwork has been properly established, we’ll be working on the slightly smaller aspects and after that focus on the minute portions.

This should give you an idea of the progression we have mapped out, but let me shift into a slightly more detailed explanation.

Based on the feedback we have been seeing on the forums, for our next step we will be making adjustments to the static enmity generated from some job abilities and spells around the end of this month. (This is of course pending that there are no major issues along the way.)

With the adjustments we will be reducing the enmity generated by approximately half of the current value.

Additionally, we will be increasing the amount of enmity generated by the white magic spells Reprisal and Foil.

We will let you know the details on which job abilities and spells will be adjusted to have less enmity generation in the coming days, but I wanted to inform you of what we have planned ahead of time.

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please remove summoner pet command enmity or reduce it to the point of near nothing. im sick of stuff ignoring garudas melee just because ive used some pet commands.

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Originally Posted by Phafi

How will the JA enmity reduction affect sentinel and other PLD JAs?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings everyone!

Based on the feedback we have been seeing on the forums, for our next step we will be making adjustments to the static enmity generated from some job abilities and spells around the end of this month. (This is of course pending that there are no major issues along the way.)

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I'd assume pld won't be.

BST isn't so bad off because snarl still works, but SMN is pretty much out of luck.

They don't the niche of a super BLM because their recasts are locked unnecessarily high and since they are designed to die or be summoned/unsummoned, they don't keep hate.

SMN is literally one of the biggest stables to the FF series. They obviously need some love, please make it a priority. You are risking brand identity by letting something like SMN fall into obscurity.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

BST isn't so bad off because snarl still works, but SMN is pretty much out of luck. SMN is literally one of the biggest stables to the FF series. They obviously need some love, please make it a priority. You are risking brand identity by letting something like SMN fall into obscurity.

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Yes enmity on beast is pretty bad actually. When your charmed T mob cannot hold the hate off you, and your mob goes attacking you because you are casting regen 2, aquaveil and blink, yeah it's very bad. You can't also use snarl for charmed pet. It's obvious that SE intend BST to be able to use charm again, most mobs in SoA are very easily charmed without using much CHR gears.

The same goes to SMN, most mob in SoA will die within 3-4 BP Rage at most, but everytime you use BP Rage, mob will come after you guaranteed, even if you are doing entirely nothing but using BP Rage x 3-4 the entire fight. These recent adjustment should be reverted back, put in the test server and properly tested. We are not paying to play a beta version of SoA. And they do have test server to make sure this kind of shenanigans won't happen again.

At least they are aware that there are BIG issues - but waiting till end of the month (pending more issues, which you can guarantee will come up rather soon) to adjust this is not good. They won't even fix the SMN and BST issues, just reducing it by half, meaning the mob will come back to attack you again after 2 BP Rage...... Not very great when you want to explore new areas on your own - perhaps everyone now is required to triple box with PLD and WHM now to go anywhere in SoA areas.

O.o?

I get their reducing the hate from Cure V and other spells / abilities. They really need to increase the CE generation (static enmity is their term) of things like Provoke / Flash and possibly ninja spells. Currently the CE value on those abilities are so low that it renders them functionally useless for holding hate past the first 30~60s. Increase Provoke to ~1000 CE, same with Flash and reduce the hate bleed off via damage by half and there is a chance that certain job will actually tank again.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Yes enmity on beast is pretty bad actually. When your charmed T mob cannot hold the hate off you, and your mob goes attacking you because you are casting regen 2, aquaveil and blink, yeah it's very bad. You can't also use snarl for charmed pet. It's obvious that SE intend BST to be able to use charm again, most mobs in SoA are very easily charmed without using much CHR gears.

The same goes to SMN, most mob in SoA will die within 3-4 BP Rage at most, but everytime you use BP Rage, mob will come after you guaranteed, even if you are doing entirely nothing but using BP Rage x 3-4 the entire fight. These recent adjustment should be reverted back, put in the test server and properly tested. We are not paying to play a beta version of SoA. And they do have test server to make sure this kind of shenanigans won't happen again.

At least they are aware that there are BIG issues - but waiting till end of the month (pending more issues, which you can guarantee will come up rather soon) to adjust this is not good. They won't even fix the SMN and BST issues, just reducing it by half, meaning the mob will come back to attack you again after 2 BP Rage...... Not very great when you want to explore new areas on your own - perhaps everyone now is required to triple box with PLD and WHM now to go anywhere in SoA areas.

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Working as intended on BST. BST is risk vs reward and cost vs benefit and always has been to one extent or another. BST is an extremely well geared job + you get a pet to work with it. When I can go in and fight with my pet I can gear to accentuate my pets performance or my performance or pick a more moderate approach. It isn't hard to make my pet the hate monger with snarl if I actually take the time to do that. If I didn't do that properly, I'd probably get beat up a lot and post on the forums about how SE ruined my luxury solo job.

The thing is, you don't have to go in with your pet. I don't personally like sending in my pet alone because I don't charm pets so that can get expensive. I'm willing to pay for the output a properly buffed jug pet will output even though it costs me money vs charming pets. My pets will always do the moves I want and will never turn on me. If you want to charm something higher level than you and put it on other terrible things, that is your decision and I will not join you in that decision because it doesn't have the same stability as jug pets. You are intentionally getting potentially higher output pets for free and complaining that they are dangerous. If you don't agree with my summary of your stance you may say as such, but if you agree with it then I don't see how you can complain.

It is not working as intended when reward itself generate TONS of hate while you stand aside letting your pet melee.

It is not working as intended when your T charmed + familiar mob cannot hold hate vs another T normal mob, while you stand aside NOT meleeing.

Pretty much BST and SMN both experiencing enmity problem with their pet and avatar - very noticeable in SoA areas but not very bad at all in Abyssea (almost nothing changed much, you hardly see any difference at all).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Greetings everyone!

Thanks for all the feedback on enmity. Just as Producer Matsui has mentioned, we will be performing on-going adjustments to the enmity system and will start by working on laying the groundwork and the essential features.

Once the groundwork has been properly established, we’ll be working on the slightly smaller aspects and after that focus on the minute portions.

This should give you an idea of the progression we have mapped out, but let me shift into a slightly more detailed explanation.

Based on the feedback we have been seeing on the forums, for our next step we will be making adjustments to the static enmity generated from some job abilities and spells around the end of this month. (This is of course pending that there are no major issues along the way.)

With the adjustments we will be reducing the enmity generated by approximately half of the current value.

Additionally, we will be increasing the amount of enmity generated by the white magic spells Reprisal and Foil.

We will let you know the details on which job abilities and spells will be adjusted to have less enmity generation in the coming days, but I wanted to inform you of what we have planned ahead of time.

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PLEASE, make sure the DEV increase the white magic spell Flash's enmity along with the spell Reprisal. And, double the enmity of the job ability Provoke. Thank you /bow

I know this sounds obvious to the players, but please like this suggestion so the DEV don't miss it

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PLEASE, make sure the DEV increase the white magic spell Flash's enmity along with the spell Reprisal. And, double the enmity of the job ability Provoke. Thank you /bow

I know this sounds obvious to the players, but please like this suggestion so the DEV don't miss it

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Doubling the enmity on provoke wont' do sh!t, they need to completely redo it.

1CE
1800VE

It's that 1CE part that makes it utterly useless after the first 30~60s. Make it 500~1000 CE and we may have a winner.

I think part of the intent behind provoke's design was that it'd only be used to get initial hate and pull the enemy back whenever you lost hate, which is why it takes 30 seconds for that VE to decay naturally and the ability is on a 30s recast.

I think if they want to preserve that part of the ability, maybe make the VE on Provoke able to break cap? Can also apply that to a couple other moves that only tanks have (Lunge, Shield Bash, Issekigan etc). Basically you would need to continuously use provoke if you wanted to solidify hate.

Won't mean anything. Enmity is determined by both CE and VE being combined. VE is easy to cap, you can assume that all melee's will be at VE cap within a min or two. It's CE that really determines who has hate and being 1000+ CE behind means that no amount of Provoke will get hate on you. Anyone that wants to "tank" needs a solid source of constant CE, which as of now is only damage.

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The same goes to SMN, most mob in SoA will die within 3-4 BP Rage at most, but everytime you use BP Rage, mob will come after you guaranteed, even if you are doing entirely nothing but using BP Rage x 3-4 the entire fight. These recent adjustment should be reverted back, put in the test server and properly tested. We are not paying to play a beta version of SoA. And they do have test server to make sure this kind of shenanigans won't happen again.

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Yes, please! I'm sick and tired of having to run near a mob just to use sic, ready or a bp just to make sure the moves goes off without "The [monster] is too far away." Hell you even get on the hate list for using items (like food) like I could be a decent enough distance away use a red curry bun or whatever food and boom the mob turns and goes after me. I like how "Old school" beastmaster solo got brought back...but not this. Also do something about ep monsters hitting like trucks (did Magic attack & acc from mobs get turned up 10x stronger?), dynamis xarc kindred rangers & ninjas SPAMMING Hecatomb Wave every 3-5 seconds at 200+ damage a hit, is this some sort of revenge against players who don't go beastmaster to Dynamis?

As they always say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. (though in this case its just...breaking it even more)

Forget Provoke...if you want hate eat a pizza >_>

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Originally Posted by Tohihroyu

Forget Provoke...if you want hate eat a pizza >_>

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Uhm you get hate from doing nothing as Summoner, lol. Just do send pet, and the mob will come back to get you, even if you just stand there idle. Broken is putting it mildly. They really need to take this adjustment back to the drawing board, and put them in the test server for 6 months for thorough testing. We are not PAYING to be a beta tester for the game.

Greetings!

As a follow-up to my previous post, we will be making adjustments to job abilities and spells that have a fixed amount of enmity in the upcoming version update.

A majority of spells and abilities will have their enmity reduced by nearly half the current value.

On the other hand, Reprisal and Foil will have their enmity boosted.

Below is the list of abilities and spells that will have their enmity values reduced:

• Job Abilities
  Benediction / Shadowbind / Barrage / Sharpshot / Heel / Leave / Sic / Stay / Reward / Deactivate
  
  
• White Magic
  Raise / Raise II / Raise III / Arise / Poisona / Paralyna / Blindna / Silena / Stona / Viruna / Cursna / Blink / Stoneskin / Aquaveil / Slow (I & II) / Haste / Paralyze (I & II) / Silence / Barfire / Barblizzard / Baraero/ Barstone / Barthunder / Barwater / Barsleep / Barpoison / Barparalyze / Barsilence / Barblind / Barbreak / Barvirus / Sacrifice / Esuna / Auspice / Repose / Erase / Addle / Temper / Embrava / Enfire (I & II) / Enblizzard (I & II) / Enthunder (I & II) / Enwater (I & II) / Enaero (I & II) / Enstone (I & II) / Enlight / Phalanx (I & II) / Regen (I~V) / Refresh (I & II) / Sandstorm / Rainstorm / Windstorm / Firestorm / Hailstorm / Thunderstorm / Aurorastorm / Voidstorm / Animus Augeo / Animus Minuo / Adloquium
  
  
• Black Magic
  Poison (I & II) / Poisonga / Bio (I~III) / Burn / Frost / Choke / Rasp / Shock / Drown / Retrace / Blaze Spikes / Ice Spikes / Shock Spikes / Sleep (I & II) / Blind (I & II) / Break / Breakga / Bind / Dispel / Absorb-MND / Absorb-CHR / Absorb-VIT / Absorb-AGI / Absorb-INT / Absorb-DEX / Absorb-STR / Absorb-ACC / Absorb-Attri / Endark / Klimaform
  
  
• Summoning Magic
  Carbuncle / Fenrir / Ifrit / Titan / Leviathan / Garuda / Shiva / Ramuh / Diabolos / Alexander / Odin / Fire Spirit / Ice Spirit / Air Spirit / Earth Spirit / Thunder Spirit / Water Spirit / Light Spirit / Dark Spirit
  
  
• Ninjutsu
  Monomi: Ichi / Aisha: Ichi / Utsusemi: Ichi / Utsusemi: Ni / Jubaku: Ichi / Hojo: Ichi / Hojo: Ni / Kurayami: Ichi / Kurayami: Ni / Dokumori: Ichi / Myoshu: Ichi / Migawari: Ichi / Kakka: Ichi / Yurin: Ichi
  
  
• Songs
  Foe Requiem (I~VII) / Horde Lullaby (I & II) / Army’s Paeon (I~VI) / Mage's Ballad (I~III) / Valor Minuet (I~V) / Knight’s Minne (I~V) / Blade Madrigal / Sword Madrigal / Hunter's Prelude / Archer's Prelude / Sheepfoe Mambo / Dragonfoe Mambo / Fowl Aubade / Herb Pastoral / Shining Fantasia / Scop’s Operetta / Puppet’s Operetta / Gold Capriccio / Warding Round / Goblin Gavotte / Advancing March / Victory March / Battlefield Elegy / Carnage Elegy / Enchanting Etude / Spirited Etude / Learned Etude / Quick Etude / Vivacious Etude / Dextrous Etude / Sinewy Etude / Bewitching Etude / Logical Etude / Sage Etude / Swift Etude / Vital Etude / Uncanncy Etude / Herculean Etude / Light Carol (I & II) / Earth Carol (I & II) / Water Carol (I & II) / Wind Carol (I & II) / Fire Carol (I & II) / Ice Carol (I & II) / Lightning Carol (I & II) / Dark Carol (I & II) / Light Threnody / Dark Threnody / Earth Threnody / Water Threnody / Wind Threnody / Fire Threnody / Ice Threnody / Lightning Threnody / Magic Finale / Foe Lullaby (I & II) / Goddess's Hymnus / Maiden's Virelai / Chocobo Mazurka / Raptor Mazurka / Foe Sirvente / Adventurer's Dirge / Sentinel's Scherzo / Pining Nocturne
  
  
• Geomancy
  Indi-Regen / Indi-Poison / Indi-Refresh / Indi-STR / Indi-DEX / Indi-VIT / Indi-AGI / Indi-INT / Indi-CHR / Indi-MND / Indi-Fury / Indi-Barrier / Indi-Acumen / Indi-Fend / Indi-Precision / Indi-Voidance / Indi-Focus / Indi-Attunement / Indi-Wilt / Indi-Frailty / Indi-Fade / Indi-Malaise / Indi-Slip / Indi-Torpor / Indi-Vex / Indi-Languor / Indi-Slow / Indi-Paralyze / Indi-Gravity / Geo-Regen / Geo-Poison / Geo-Refresh / Geo-STR / Geo-DEX / Geo-VIT / Geo-AGI / Geo-INT / Geo-CHR / Geo-MND / Geo-Fury / Geo-Barrier / Geo-Acumen / Geo-Fend / Geo-Precision / Geo-Voidance / Geo-Focus / Geo-Attunement / Geo-Wilt / Geo-Frailty / Geo-Fade / Geo-Malaise / Geo-Slip / Geo-Torpor / Geo-Vex / Geo-Languor / Geo-Slow / Geo-Paralyze / Geo-Gravity

blue mages forgotten?

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Originally Posted by Tennotsukai

blue mages forgotten?

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Shhhhhh. Don't mess with our tanking.....

Foil still doesn't really have much of a duration, so it's basically going to be used as a hate tool that can reduce enemy TP move dmg for 45 seconds after use?

Yeah leave ninja alone too on that. I like using spells for extra hate.

Why would you reduce enmity values on NIN spells? I thought you development types were on board with NINs being tanks now?

Looking at that list, I'm now convinced that there's little to no hope for this game.

What about Summoner Job Abilities?

Do NOT lower the enmity on NIN's spells. They need them to hold hate. If anything, increase them.

Unfortunately, while 90% of the proposed changes seem to be going in the right direction, lowering the enmity gained for Ninjutsu enfeebles and enhances is going to hurt their tanking ability. At the moment, Ninjas have to compete against 2 handed DDs using Yonin and what few offensive/enhancing spells they have to maintain hate. If those spells have their enmity cut in half, it's going to make it quite a bit harder to hold hate unless some other aspect of this is being adjusted as well. Even Utsusemi: Ni/Ichi help quite a bit in maintaining hate with Ninja, especially since we cast them repeatedly while tanking. Those spells alone will probably hurt the most to have their enmity chopped in half. If there is some kind of other adjustment that will offset this, would like to know about it, if not, maybe leave the Ninjutsu enmity alone?

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Originally Posted by Antanias

Looking at that list, I'm now convinced that there's little to no hope for this game.

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I totally agree with you. Why would they reduce ninja tools hate is beyond me.... And they are still not reducing Blood Pact Rage that pretty much transfer hate to Summoner.... Let alone fixing the enmity whackadoodle on Beastmaster.

Okay so... is the objective of the new director to make this game unplayable? Because the majority of the stuff listed here hardly generates much enmity anyways, if it is getting hate maybe you should have a real tank during content. That is always an option you know...

Geomancer I don't know I have seen more hate generated from cure 1 than any of their spells and I am leveling it slowly with a few RUNs.

Job abilities: I can understand some of those listed. However, why reduce BST ability enmity generation? Once upon a time BST took skill and intelligence to play and now its just job a monkey could play, you plan on making it easier for them? So much for the "skilled job" but I guess that died when level cap was raised, that's when the job became easy.

White magic, I can understand some of them such as raise, erase, the SCH spells.. but why reduce enspells and barspells? One of the last things RDM can do anymore that no other mage can do is take a hit and take it well and if setup correctly RDM can tank if it had some enmity generation which is another way RDM can play in some content. Also if you thought about it, keeping barspells as they are if they do generate as much enmity as you claim would only HELP RUN when they casted it. I guess the dev team doesn't look into this now does it.

Black Magic I would say raise the enmity on spikes but lower it on the rest, I can't remember the last time I saw a BLM cast a spikes spell so that's just wasted time, RUN also gets spikes spells.

Summoning Magic Complete agreement here, Never liked how summoner spells, JA's or pet commands generated more enmity than others.

Now for the bad one that makes absolutely zero sense at all.

Ninjutsu

This one makes me greatly question the SE development team

As a NIN the first spell I casted was Kurayami: Ni because it helped secure hate a little better at the start of a fight not just because of the blind effect.

Okay, so... let me understand this you think that some of these spells generate too much enmity? You do realize that once half of these spells land they have no effect until they wear off right? That most ninja won't even cast them until they wear off? So why would you reduce them? What, if any logic do you even have to do this? I am convinced there is no logic in the SE development team half the time. Does the director know what they are doing I am thinking they don't.

Songs

With any half-decent tank/melee you wouldn't generate enough enmity from songs to even get hate until the wipe.


In conclusion:

I am perfectly fine with you raising the enmity on those two spells, they need it, but lowering the enmity on these spells and abilities for the most part is just a terrible, terrible idea.

Maybe you're on a mission to prove everyone wrong, and job balance was NEVER on your list of things to do just like it was before. If it was you'd be making adjustments to things that matter and not the enmity generation on so many spells that don't even generate much enmity in the first place, or in the case of Ninja generate enmity and HELP it to perform better.

I strongly urge you to reconsider some of these changes they are not only unbalanced changes but terrible ideas and poor development at its finest.

RDM/RUN Raise the enmity on enhancing magic spells, would force rdms to stay on their toes and help RUN tank.

NIN: RAISE enmity on NIN enfeeble spells since /NIN never use them, or admit you have no idea what you're doing in terms of game development and balance, you clearly don't.

SMN: I support, but just like moogles in selbina you're doing this update about 5-6 years too late. Cut the enmity on their job abilities and pet commands or the summoning magic enmity cut is completely worthless.

What the SE dev team, especially the new director needs to do is make waves and job revamps for half the jobs in the game, not make small questionable and in this case laughable adjustments that will only frustrate the community.

Hush - the new director is barely legal out of college. He has a lot of learning to do - he does not even play the game properly. Everything here is only working on theory and on paper. And yes they really want us to quit the game and move to FF14 - so in essence the new director's job is "working as intended".

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Hush - the new director is barely legal out of college. He has a lot of learning to do - he does not even play the game properly. Everything here is only working on theory and on paper. And yes they really want us to quit the game and move to FF14 - so in essence the new director's job is "working as intended".

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I'm planning on doing that regardless but depending on what this "director" does will factor into people continuing to play a game with no real updates. I wont be impressed with this director until they really fix the job balance issues. This game has had zero job balance since launch.

What the director does between now and FFXIV launch will determine if a lot of people, including myself are willing to pay for FFXI and FFXIV

I'm hoping the enmity relating to the summon spells only refers to the enmity gained from their casting...

Why enmity would be reduced for Utsusemi is beyond me. That's kind of what a Ninja tanks with...

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Originally Posted by Xikeroth

Job abilities: I can understand some of those listed. However, why reduce BST ability enmity generation? Once upon a time BST took skill and intelligence to play and now its just job a monkey could play, you plan on making it easier for them?

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Maybe because the abilities listed for bst have never been significant sources for enmity generation? If I pull a mob with my pet and he gets in a few combat rounds before I use heel to pull him back, the mob should never make a beeline for me just because I use the pet ability, which is how it works now. It has never, ever worked like that. The only time the mob should come after me when I use heel is when the pet swings and misses and I jump the gun by using the PA too early. The same applies to heel and sic. I could be convinced that reward should draw greater enmity if the HP restored was significant but directing pets to perform simple commands (fall back, stay in one place, use a TP move) should not result in a monster chewing my face off when my pet is doing damage to it and more especially (in the cases of Falcorr and Yuly), when the pet cannot lose enmity rapidly because it isn't taking damage through evasion.

You may think these changes bring about less skillful play from bsts but in reality, having these mechanics broken as they are atm take away the opportunity to play with any degree of skill and finesse. They relegate bst to a position of just being a far weaker WAR with a mediocre dd companion.

Uhh, what about summoner job abilities...?

One other point I'd like to make. I'm not entirely sure, but I thought that the point of these proposed enmity changes was to fix the recent problem we've had with mages ripping hate off of tanks with simple spells like barspells, self buffs, etc. ? Honestly, any advantage that lowering the enmity gain of those mage spells would have had will be negated in situations with a Ninja tanking due to the equal cut in Ninjutsu magic enmity gain. Though this only applies to situations where a Ninja is tanking, for low man groups that use Ninja all the time this wont really change much, the mages will still peel hate off the Ninja. Again, I suggest, reconsider the enmity changes for ninjutsu spells.

One thing i know is i,on PLD hitting some mob in Adoulin for like 5-6 rounds with a flash, and sentenal used,my whm used cure IV on me and stole hate.........just sayin.

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Originally Posted by fernando

One thing i know is i,on PLD hitting some mob in Adoulin for like 5-6 rounds with a flash, and sentenal used,my whm used cure IV on me and stole hate.........just sayin.

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That afternoon was absurd enough that I shelved WHM temporarily, I hope this upcoming update doesn't just break enmity more.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Why would you reduce enmity values on NIN spells? I thought you development types were on board with NINs being tanks now?

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Hmm, I do recall seeing a post back in 2005... let's see... it said something like this:
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From Playonline:
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Changes to Utsusemi and Ranged Attacks
The next version update will make battle more strategic for players who use Utsusemi or ranged attacks.
*Changes to the ninjutsu "Utsusemi"
In the next update, the player's enmity will decrease when a shadow image created by Utsusemi is absorbed by an attack.

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So to me at least it makes sense to further reduce enmity gain on ninjutsu.... okay... moving forward in time, these were added:

Job Adjustments and Additions Part I (07/03/2009)

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A host of job adjustments and additions are in the pipes for the upcoming version update, including formidable new abilities for ninjas. Other jobs, too, are scheduled to benefit from myriad adjustments to magic and abilities. In this, the first part in the job adjustment series of articles, we cast the spotlight on ninjas, Vana'diel's agents of stealth and deception.

New Job Abilities
Accomplished in both offense and defense, the art of ninjutsu has over the years proven to be a favorite among adventurers across the land. Now, with the addition of the following two new abilities, ninjas can further enhance either their efficiency in offense or aptitude in defense as befits the situation.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...666/4666_5.jpg
- Yonin (Lv.40 Ability Delay: 5 min. Duration: 5 min.)
Increases enmity and enhances "ninja tool expertise" effect, but impairs accuracy. Grants a bonus to evasion and critical hit rate when in front of target.

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics...666/4666_7.jpg
- Innin (Lv.40 Ability Delay: 5 min. Duration: 5 min.)
Reduces enmity and impairs evasion. Grants a bonus to accuracy, critical hit rate, and ninjutsu damage when striking target from behind.

- Yonin
Strengthens one's ability to fend off blows from the enemy.
While in effect, Yonin increases enmity and enhances the effect of "ninja tool expertise" in exchange for reduced accuracy. Further bonuses are granted to evasion and critical hit rate when engaging your target from the front.
The potency of the above effects gradually decreases over time.

- Innin
Strengthens one's ability to deal damage to the enemy.
While in effect, Innin lowers enmity in exchange for reduced evasion. Further bonuses are granted to accuracy, critical hit rate, and ninjutsu damage when striking your target from behind.
As with Yonin, the potency of the above effects gradually decreases over time.

*Notes
The effects of both Yonin and Innin are mutually exclusive. Activating one while the other is in effect will result in the nullification of the one originally in effect.
Yonin and Innin have a shared ability delay. For example, a ninja who uses Yonin must wait for five minutes to elapse before either ability becomes usable again.

In implementing these new abilities, the development team has taken into consideration character positioning during party play and many other factors. To ensure a smooth gaming experience for all, testing and adjustments will be carried out to the fullest extent that time permits.
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I fail to see anywhere where SE specifically said, Ninja was designed to tank. If that was posted anywhere please provide the information for review.

I see where certain abilities were introduced to add a level of "strategy" but just because the player base used the job as a tank (forever) doesn't mean that was what was intended. Now, if SE turns around and decides not to further decrease enmity gain on ninjutsu spells, (as noted by their most recent announcement), then perhaps its an indicator that they have acknowledged that the player base has elected to utilize the Ninja job as a form of "tank", and are accepting of that designation.

Just my 2-cents worth. XD

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Originally Posted by HimuraKenshyn

Shhhhhh. Don't mess with our tanking.....

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oh.. oops.

If Barspells are generating too much enmity... surely the WHM AOE versions should also receive an enmity decrease? Or is WHM now intended to tank; what with barspells, and spamming cure V cureskin on themselves.

As for Utsusemi: This will also reduce the enmity of any DDs/mages going /NIN, so it's not all bad. They should have left the nukes and enfeebles alone though.

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Originally Posted by Caketime

That afternoon was absurd enough that I shelved WHM temporarily, I hope this upcoming update doesn't just break enmity more.

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When was enmity ever not broken? There has always been something that someone could complain about giving too much or too little enmity.

I agree with your overall hope that these changes will not make things worse than they already are, but considering the previous change, the things Camate listed make sense. We just had hate generated from damage drastically cut, so job abilities and spells which generate static amounts of hate had their enmity generation abilities boosted as a side-effect. All the things listed in Camate's thread (except raise, which is a slight wtf moment) are more effective at holding hate than they used to be, and most of those things, no one wants to hold hate by using them.

The ninjas who want to hold hate raise a valid point in that ninja has a distinct lack of hate tools, and these recent damage-hate nerfs gave them a slight boost. I think the ninjutsu issue should be cured more by NIN's stances, however. Leave the current values as they are, halve them if the NIN is under the effect of innin, double if under the effect of yonin.

Or maybe you could come up with some better, more accurate values for what it should be. My suggestion is just a generalization of how it should work, not perfection.

Baramnesia/Baramnesra are missing. Is this on purpose or a mistake?

Also I'm not convinced about the reduced hate on NIN. Altough I guess if a NIN want to tank he still has the option of using the elemental wheel but... wouldn't it have been better leaving the original enmity to those other spells as well?
SE seems to have forgotten over the last years that NIN is a job that, in theory, is supposed to tank as well.

No, they just remembered that if they decrease the hate that damage and cures give, they should also decrease the hate that other actions give. If subbing bard for threnody spam is nerfed, why shouldn't ninjutsu spells be nerfed?

I should mention that I'm not saying I have the perfect answer for this problem. Ninja DOES have troubles holding hate compared to other tank jobs, so the recent damage and cure enmity nerf was a temporary boost to their ability to hold a mob's attention. But Camate's changes are basically knocking ninjutsu back down to what it used to be for hate generation purposes. It's not a nerf, it's just restoring things to the way they used to be.

I should also mention that I would love to see nin given some more options for building hate. But nin is a job that could be played either low-enmity or high-enmity based on its stances. If anything, the effect that the stances have on enmity should be what's changed.

Frankly Ninjutsu barely sees any use anymore outside of Utsusemi. The debuffs see the light of day assuming you're running low man but then it's not much of a challenge to hold hate low-man, I'm only casting them because there isn't a WHM/RDM/SCHwithsub enfeebling stuff for me. Slow 1 caps higher than Hojo: Ni and presumably a similar thing goes on with blind and paralyze. If they want me to use the spells outside of those situations they need to either strengthen ninjutsu enfeebles or add the San line into the game. If on the other hand I'm in a larger group I won't be playing NIN at all, but even if I did, damage outpaces Ninjutsu's enmity generation by such a large degree it won't even matter.

So while it makes no sense and shows a lot about how the dev team handled NIN it really isn't going to change much about how the job is played. Or not played, I suppose.