Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future

The changes to the merit weapon skills are a good compromise (and in fact a better change than simply increasing the category max by a few points), and I will explain why:

As Motenten listed out, it means that under the new system, a 1/5 WS (65%) will be nearly as strong as a 4/5 WS currently is (68%). There are exceptions (Particularly Tachi: Shoha because of how powerful a SAM's other WSs are), but this means that a level 1 weapon skill will almost always be useful now. That extra 20% mod is admittedly quite a bit, but I don't think a lot of you are understanding what the idea behind the adjustment is.

Now, the vision the devs initially thought of (That we can choose between being versatile or being specialized) is actually true, because now even a level 1 weapon skill can be quite useful. As someone who plays a great variety of jobs, I greatly prefer this change over them simply adding an extra 5-10 total levels to the merit category, because now players can pick and choose. Beforehand, investing 1 point into a weapon skill would be completely useless. Now, most of the merit WSs will outdo most non-REM WSs with a single point invested.

Granted, it would be cool to have both this adjustment and a raise to the cap, but people are really exaggerating when they say that you are choosing between having 5 weak weapon skills and 1 strong weapon skill...that was true before. Now you are choosing between having 5 good weapon skill, 2 great weapon skills or 1 amazing weapon skill etc. It's far more flexible than it used to be.

Actually, giving it some more thought, I think 17 would be the ideal number.

At 18, people are likely to just do 5/5/4/4, and given how close 4 is to 5 now, you're more or less giving 4 full weaponskills, which I think SE's been trying to avoid.

At 17, though, it becomes 5/5/4/3, which isn't quite as good, and lends itself to more general choices. While most people will almost certainly keep 5/5 on the first two, it's the last set of points that matters.

People who want to keep their third WS at 5 will be given 2 extra points to use on 'extra' weaponskills. For those who want more variety, you're given plenty of room to maneuver among the options. 4/2/1, 3/2/2, 3/2/1/1, 2/2/1/1/1, etc., depending on how many weaponskills they really want. Given that 1 merit in a weaponskill could be considered 'adequate', and that you'd want 2-3 to push it towards 'good', that seems like enough flexibility to allow people to specialize to their own preference.

Keeping it at 15, you can kind of do the same thing, but it really feels a lot more restrictive on your options. 16 might be an 'ok' compromise, but it really doesn't feel like it would lend itself to the proliferation of choice that you'd get at 17.

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Originally Posted by Asymptotic

BUT IT'S FRIDAY SO WE HAVE TO WAIT AT LEAST TWO DAYS I DON'T HAVE THAT LONG WHAT IF I DIE BEFORE THEN!? I WILL DIE NOT KNOWING! MY LIFE WILL BE INCOMPLETE!

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And due to a strong desire for knowledge, your departing soul will forever belong to Belphegor.

http://i924.photobucket.com/albums/a...phegorAv02.jpg

THIS MAN'S SOUL HANGS IN THE BALANCE!

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Originally Posted by Eri

What does you Current Merrit Points category tell you? 17% Per Merrit right?

17*5 = 85 .

Chances are that there its absolutly no change to a Tier 5 Merrited WS....

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No I'm cool now, someone explained the 85% thing already so I get it now and it doesn't sound horrible to me anymore.

I am happy with the proposed changes to merit WSes. Although i would like a few more merits for cap in that category, i wouldnt mind having a 1 or 2 merit point ws and not have to cap each to make it worthwhile. With 20 (22 soon) jobs there needs to be more options to cap these than 3, but since it is merits i understand they want you to choose. that is basically the whole point of all the merits is to make you choose.

But it isnt like we can wield these weapons all at once and have access to all these WSes at the same time. even if dual wielding 2 weapons you can only access the main hands WSes. This is the same reason i dont get why we cant merit more combat skills (though they have increased this through the years) except these u can benefit from while dual weidling 2 different weapons of course, but you still can only benefit from 2 of those at one time.

All the other stuff i approve. the magic stuff: so now maybe utilizing a mobs magic weakness might actually work cause earth and water might actually do a lil bit more dmg to be worthwhile. of course 90% of the mobs out there are weak to ice or thunder one way or the other but its nice to have options.

I should echo the sentiments of others regarding the planned 1H adjustments that a simple adjustment to the STR/DEX scaling of attack and accuracy VS 2 Handers will not help very much at all. Even at level 99 it results in maybe 30-40 extra attack and accuracy on the 2 handers. This is no insignificant amount, but closing this gap, even if it was for both hands, would not help 1 handers at all. The different ratio cap imposed on 1H jobs is what needs to be examined for things to be rebalanced, because acc/attack can generally be capped for any job if they are under the correct buffs, and these are situations 1H jobs truly fall behind by a massive amount.

There can be other, more creative ways of adjusting this (like giving 1Hs different bonuses from stats vs 2Hs, like they get more crit per point of DEX or something like that), but basically the point is that the STR/DEX scaling differences are actually a pretty minor factor in the big picture.

Other than that, i think the adjustments look amazing and I can't wait for them to go live!

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Originally Posted by Edyth

Regarding Dark Knight
Dark Knight is in need of major help because of the fact that it is perceived as slightly weaker than WAR and SAM, and therefore by elitist logic is "useless." "Loldrk" is treated like it's lightyears behind WAR and SAM by the general English-speaking FFXI community. I'm not saying this is true in terms of the jobs' actual power, but that's how the community views DRK.

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Lol major help. DRK is one of the top DD in the game with arguably the best Relic weapon, if not the best weapon.

I can understand it being a barely perceptible margin behind more pure DD like War and Sam because those jobs are built for one thing - damage alone. WAR alone has no other abilities, magic, etc. that can help them do anything except damage.

You're welcome to the marginal increase from Resolution to Ukko's Fury/Upheaval/Resolution that you believe is there if you are willing to give up Stun, Spikes, and any magic.

Then again, typical blinders on FFXI poster...

...this is the reason we have to keep playing rotate the cup with top job every few years.

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There can be other, more creative ways of adjusting this (like giving 1Hs different bonuses from stats vs 2Hs, like they get more crit per point of DEX or something like that), but basically the point is that the STR/DEX scaling differences are actually a pretty minor factor in the big picture

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Well allowing the 15% haste from LR to apply to 1H would be a very interesting buff in and of itself. 1H also struggle to hit 20% delay floor without resorting to excessive DR which isn't as efficient as straight haste. Abilities such as soul eater also effect 1H more then 2H due to faster hit rate, of course there are some negative side effects. I'd like to see SE adjusted such that it only removes the damage it does, so at level 30 SE would take 5% HP away as damage from /DRK, at 45 it would be 4.25% HP for 5% damage. Would make SE useful for jobs like MNK, NIN, BLU, THF, DNC, ect..

We all know it's the ratio that is the problem. Specifically after level correction nerfs our damage into the ground. I would really like to see 1H have a more generous critical hit rate formula. Maybe needing dDex 20 rather then dDex 40 for any real difference to appear.

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Originally Posted by Siiri

Really warrior is the most overpowered job. Also, the big issue with Resolution and Rag is war's access to it, not drks. Especially during mighty strikes. As for the 1 handers, they are pretty weak on high defense mobs. I know in our neo nyzul group on the boss run its like our blue mage isn't even there. However during the climb, he can dream flower all the gears, etc, pen. embrace (spelling sorry) after chariots, blank gaze the soulflayers. If he was the best DD on the boss why would any other job exist? Got to be real careful with utility jobs like dnc, blue, thf, nin, pup as they are so strong in other ways.

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Yes WAR is overpowered...geez...you people need to math some things out and see the slight % that a fully pimped out job XYZ really does over a fully geared job ABC. It's not as massive as you chicken littles make it out to be. The fact that you (not "you" random cryer #1,234,987,567 that I'm quoting) cry over it all the time, is the reason why the developers have to waste time thinking about boosting 1 handed utility jobs to make up for some imagined unfairness. 1 handers had their 6 years in the spotlight. Rightly pure DD that can't steal, treasure hunt, cast ninja or blue magic, or do dance spells were buffed to make them actually do good damage with 2 handed weapons. Shocker, I know. But let's not forget our history.

You clearly have not done this "mathing out" you are telling other people to do, because if you had you would know that the game's mechanics by default have made it so that 1H jobs become significantly weaker than 2H jobs when fighting high level targets because of the ratio term alone.

Also my Thief can't effectively do area damage to multiple small enemies at once (in b4 aeolian edge is suggested in complete seriousness), or absorb a significant amount of a stat like some 2 hander jobs can. Every job has something unique to it without considering DPS numbers.

I actually agree that jobs like Dark Knight should continue be king of the hill, but you don't know very much about the mechanics of the game at all if you think 1 hand jobs are even remotely competitive with the 2H ones damage-wise.

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I would really like to see 1H have a more generous critical hit rate formula. Maybe needing dDex 20 rather then dDex 40 for any real difference to appear.

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If they can think of a separate, unique way for 1Hs to bring damage to the table I would be very much for it, because it would add a lot of variety to the game. Adjusting ratio would be the easier and lazier route, but ultimately boring from a gameplay variability perspective.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

You clearly have not done this "mathing out" you are telling other people to do, because if you had you would know that the game's mechanics by default have made it so that 1H jobs become significantly weaker than 2H jobs when fighting high level targets because of the ratio term alone.

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I'm aware that 1 handed utility jobs who have functions besides damage dealing are not = to the damage of jobs who function to do just damage with 2 handed weapons. Thief was my first job and I played nothing but Thief until Treasures of Aht Urghan came out. I have a long and rich history of understanding what the top jobs have been and haven't been. Please address the actual % you are claiming the game unfairly treats one handed jobs. Then be honest and account for the utility functions. The game is pretty well balanced right where it is right now. However, if you'd simply like a new favorite Baskin Robbins flavor of the month to be the special, I can understand the jealousy.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Also my Thief can't effectively do area damage to multiple small enemies at once (in b4 aeolian edge is suggested in complete seriousness), or absorb a significant amount of a stat like some 2 hander jobs can. Every job has something unique to it without considering DPS numbers.

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Whoopdeedoo. Where does this even matter? Lol2yeardoldabyssea? Are you arguing that 1H Thf can't AoE as well as 1H Blue Mage?

The problem is not that we have just a few top DD and the other DD need to be made equal. Then we'll just have more jobs competing for the same exact role. The problem, which as usual is being glossed over because you are fighting amongst yourselves, is that what utility jobs bring to the table is useless. Make that utility more useful and it simply becomes a playerbase issue.

Or just get rid of all jobs besides mages and add 1 "I do DMG" job.

Supplementing what Kincard said:

Against top-end mobs, around level 120 (well, 119 for this example), the absolute best cRatio a 1-hander can get is 1.0, while the absolute best a 2-hander can get is 1.25. That means that, even if the two jobs were functionally equivalent at the same cRatio, the 2-hander will do 25% more damage than the 1-hander, which is a pretty massive difference, particularly in content where time limits are the main opponent (eg: Legion).

On top of that is the better str->attack conversion for higher attack (and thus easier to reach capped cRatio), and dex->accuracy conversion to actually hit the mob (there can be up to a 20% difference in hit rates due to that, which, if not corrected for, is another 25% difference in damage). In situations where it's easy for a drk to hit capped cRatio, and where the sam doesn't really care because his weaponskills get a massive attack boost (and thus will almost always be at capped cRatio for most of his damage anyway), 1-handers would be struggling to even hit the 1.0 ratio. There's a pretty high likelihood that the raw difference in cRatio will be markedly higher than 25% due to the need to also load up on extra acc gear.

Simply adjusting the str:attack and dex:accuracy ratios will mostly just be a band-aid on the difference between the two weapon classes. Unfortunately Camate has confirmed that there's no actual consideration for level correction changes.

The accuracy difference is a buff and stat conversion limitation, and can be overcome (with difficulty). The cRatio difference is a hard game limit that will always leave a gulf between 2-handers and 1-handers.

Whether that's an intentional gulf is another question altogether.

I'm very happy that /DRK might have some possibilities for NOT WAR or SAM, because those two love each other too much to cheat. On a very serious note, DRK is not powerful if you take away Ragnarok and Resolution. WAR is still powerful if you take them away. I really think you need to re-evaluate this just a little more.

Greatsword is supposed to be the main weapon for Rune Fencer but currently WAR and DRK would argue that it's their main weapon since all you see is Ragnaroks on the back of every DD that can wear it in Port Jeuno. Please do everyone a big favor and nerf Resolution by subtracting a hit from it and adding that hit to Entropy and Quietus. Scythes are terrible right now and they need to be fixed so we can weed out some of these overnight DRKs.

WAR will go back to Ukko and DRKs will go back to looking like DRKs. When Rune Fencer comes out, you can find a way for it to use Resolution better than WAR and DRK based on the merits of it's job. If everyone is playing the same couple jobs because they are blatantly better, then you have let one of the primary draws to your game fail : a real job system.

I really appreciate the augments to the magic system. It would be nice to see more mages and fewer WAR and DRKs with Ragnaroks.

Please like if you agree with me.

"Then be honest and account for the utility functions. The game is pretty well balanced right where it is right now."

WUT?..............

quite excited by the elemental magic overhaul. it acknowledges how magic damage has fallen behind both in terms of power and speed.
and because these changes are universal down to level 1, it also acknowledges and partially addresses that magic in battle is sorely outpaced by melee at the moment.

this being a key concern, I'm hopeful that Matsui will cover other job areas that require attention in the correct manner.

as for the DRK thing, i like that they're adjusting other jobs up instead of directly nerfing DRK by tweaking the ability and allowing for more potential SJ options.

I think half of the argument for more merit ws is based from the fact that most of the mws are vastly superior to the 300 skill/mythic/quested ws. As a Sam and Blu i can say that while i may be able to do without Requescat (though the utility value is insane) i cannot lose Shoha...the difference being while 90% of the time Req is only a minor improvement in comparison to San.blade and Savage blade and Vorpal blade(outside of aby), shoha is massively beyond gekko rana and kasha, the ranges being roughly 1.5k-2.5k vs 3k-5k...i bet that if the dev team would adjust the quested and mythic ws to close the gap, not entirely perhaps but close, that the demand for moar merit ws slots would fade to a minor rumble.

Please consider updating blue magic nuke efficiency in a similar fashion to what's happening to elemental magic. I'm not saying it should be on par with blm or sch, but it should retain the same relative nuking potential it has to them now.

Also, why are you keeping weapon skill merit caps in the game at all? What is the point? The proposed change is certainly better than what we have now, but I still don't see the purpose in limiting them in any fashion, same thing with combat/magic skill merits. Why are some of my jobs forcefully hindered by the merits I have for others? Why can't I pick up weapon skills like shattersoul for mage jobs, apex arrow for sam, etc. for fun, without sacrificing power on more important weapon skills? Why can't I merit summoning magic skill without dropping something more valuable?

What's the purpose of penalizing fun, and reducing replay value of the game with these caps?

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Originally Posted by Camate

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

Good to see that just dont make a merit adjustment or ability make it a full time adjustment.

Regarding Dark Knight
Interresting one for sub jobs, will not change drk too much tough, and i agreed that scythes ws´s need a boost overall

Regarding Defense

More people should be comenting on this one, i agree that defense should play a bigger role even with enemies buffs (crawlers and crabs would be alot toughter overall), or berserk like debuffs afterall you can manually take then off, and depending on level will have the options to dispell enemies... also this will pretty much affect damage overall indirectly affecting spells like dia and bio so would change alot in terms of damage , in my opinion an welcome change.

Merit Point Weapon Skills
looks interresting but probably should raise the points abit so we can take at least 3 ws to full charge and chose some other ones "for fun"

Elemental Magic

Awesome overall , needs to affect Gas, Jas and AMs as well.

Regarding Content

Overall welcome changes
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Also Camate mind sending a message to dev team? even tough low (1-30) - mid(31-60) level is pretty much non-existent nowadays do they plan to do some balancing to the jobs in those levels? i understand that those would need to wait the defense adjustment (if they go along with it) the enfeebling and elemental magic adjustments and most importantly the enmity adjustment, but i would like to see adjustments to jobs in those levels as well.

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Originally Posted by Camate

They are specifically talking about the fact that stats such as DEX and STR affect two-handed weapons more than single-handed weapons, and how they would like to make it so there are more merits to wielding single-handed weapons.
The term "補正" can be translated as "correction" in some cases, but in this context it is the term known as "modifier."

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This is what I expected, but still a let-down.

I was hoping the change would be more or less opposite this: the extra bonuses from STR and DEX would remain unique to two-handed weapons but all main-hand weapons would receive roughly the same cRatio (Attack/Defense ratio) cap somehow. Or, maybe just all melee weapons since so many jobs Dual Wield naturally now.

This would keep an across the board advantage for two-handed weapons while making it difficult, but possible, for one-handed weapons to close the huge gap in damage that is present in any situation involving very high level monsters. In that specific situation, a change to the bonuses from STR and DEX for one-handed weapons will just make it considerably easier to hit the lower cap due to fewer concerns about accuracy along with ~40 Attack itself but do little to change the gaping gap that gapes once that lower cap is hit.

Another bonus is that there would be relatively little change to the more laid-back content at which the typical job that uses one-handed weapon and has various (often dubious) utility abilities excels. Those are situations that don't often involve Attack buffs from other players, often involve lower level monsters, or both; this makes cRatio less likely to be capped, the .25 difference less noticeable as the difference is likely to be ~2-2.25 rather than ~1-1.25 when it is capped, or some mixture of the two varying from monster to monster.

Come on, let this one slide. You can make up the difference in sense-making later by putting Puppetmaster on all the premier sets of mage equipment when Seekers of Adoulin is introduced, if you want.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Balance between two-handed and single-handed weapons

[...]
For example, we are currently looking into the possibility of adding some form of merit that would enhance the modifiers for the single-handed weapon main weapon slot.

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please dont only enhance the main weapon slot, whatever buff you do should also effect the Sub weapon when dual wielding.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Merit Point Weapon Skills

[...]
Instead of adjusting the cap value, we are currently looking into adjusting the modifier values so that these weapon skills can be used with a single merit point.

We are envisioning to make it so 1 merit point will yield a 65% status modifier, and each point afterwards will grant an addition 5% for a maximum of 85% (no changes to the max value).

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If this is your solution to the Merit-WS request then you can save your time and dont change it at all. This makes absolute NO SENSE to change it like this. Its either Full Merited, or nothing, even if you change the minimum status Modifier, it will still be all or nothing. Raise the amount of Merit Weapon skills we can fully merit (like 5 5/5 WS's should be atleast a start if you dont want completly uncap it) So many many many players have all jobs 99, have EVERY SINGLE Merit point they could get.. they have nothing left to do with exp.. give them somethng to spend them on.. like more merit WS's and dont come here with this useless solution of just making 1/5 less gimp.

5/5 Merits in a WS is allways the goal, aslong as 5/5 does higher dmg then 1/5. This wont change.

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Originally Posted by Edyth

Regarding Dark Knight
Dark Knight is in need of major help because of the fact that it is perceived as slightly weaker than WAR and SAM, and therefore by elitist logic is "useless." "Loldrk" is treated like it's lightyears behind WAR and SAM by the general English-speaking FFXI community. I'm not saying this is true in terms of the jobs' actual power, but that's how the community views DRK.

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And DRG is perceived as extremely weaker than all those jobs unless it has a mythic. When's the day when I can be a DRG, be one of the top 3 dd's in the game, and then complain that i'm not in the top 2. Hell DRG isn't even in the top 5 really. I think there is other jobs that need more work to be competitive than DRK at the moment.

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Originally Posted by TheBarrister

I'm aware that 1 handed utility jobs who have functions besides damage dealing are not = to the damage of jobs who function to do just damage with 2 handed weapons.

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You don't seem to understand that I was saying that every single job has something unique to it even if you ignore damage dealing. A warrior has a powerful way of quickly doing area damage (Fell cleave + Retaliation) and variability in weapons. A dark knight can absorb. A dragoon can do a number of things with their wyvern. This utility you speak of isn't limited to the light jobs only.

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Please address the actual % you are claiming the game unfairly treats one handed jobs.

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As Motenten pointed out, against a high level target, the way the calculations in the game work already by default cap a one-hander job to 25% less damage than a 2 hander job. When you factor in the whole "one handers can't cap acc/atk as easily" bit, the gap becomes even wider. I wouldn't be surprised if properly buffed two-hander jobs were doing at least 50% more damage than a one-hander job.

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what utility jobs bring to the table is useless. Make that utility more useful and it simply becomes a playerbase issue

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Your argument is that utility makes up for gaps in damage. I am here to tell you that aside from 2 handers providing utility of their own, this is not true. It doesn't matter what "utility" my blue mage brings, it's not going to make up for the fact that a 2 hander can, by default, do 25% more damage than I can, and reach this max much easier.

Currently the only "utility" from light jobs people care about at all is Treasure Hunter, and that is a really forced and idiotic system (Make all drop rates really low so people are encouraged to bring THF to make drop rates not abyssmal). Even if they fixed things like Tourbillion, or Yurin/Aisha, or Sambas, one-handers will still not hold any merit versus high level targets because the gap is simply far too large.

This doesn't mean we don't care about utility, but fixing it isn't going to solve anyting like you are implying it would.

tl;dr it doesn't matter how much they adjust utility, one handers will still be a waste of a slot.

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Originally Posted by Mindi

Its either Full Merited, or nothing

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nope

Camate,

Thank you for passing on the information and for the clarification. I am really happy to see these plans are being considered. As a career mage, I've always wished that the elements were more balanced. I'd be ecstatic if this idea could be extended one step further and have elemental weaknesses play a role in damage calculations. It should be minor, but enough to encourage all mages to target an enemies weakness if they have one and could also help close the gap between melee and magic. This would also apply to elemental WS as well.

(As an aside, I've been using Shantotto in Dissidia 012 quite a lot recently. I remember thinking the other day how nice it was that each of the elements she uses in battle has its own strategic value and how fun it would be if that were the case in FFXI. Great timing! (*^_^) )

I would add that I wish there was mention of the enmity adjustments that were supposed to be under consideration a long time ago. There are 3 jobs that have abilities/spells tied to this mechanic and they would see a much needed boost if those abilities actually had strategic value. I think many of us would like to know what the dev team is thinking in regards to this.

And we have seen the teams willingness to address jobs/abilities that are too powerful (Embrava, Perfect Defense, now DRK). It would also be nice if we could also see a detailed response about those jobs lagging behind. I don't really consider myself a RDM, but even I am starting to wonder what the team is thinking.

Holy sh!t. I've never been for a rate down button on this forum but right now I'm extremely close. Are people still demanding nerfs to WAR/DRK resolution out of spite instead of the appropriate buffs to Entropy / Upheaval / MT?

Nerfing Res / Rag won't change a damn thing. DRK's use it because Scyth sucks right now, haste gear is so easy to acquire that Apoc's lost much of it's usefulness in pure damage. Still rocks for DRK PDT tanking though. WAR's switch between Ukko / Res depending on their target. Rag is just more convenient to acquire. You can spam dyna every day for the currency and build it vs Ukko requiring you to farm Abyssea's NMs, one of which is an annoying sh!t to build pop sets for.

The whole reason you see WAR + DRK as the top DD's is due to how high their damage potential can be buffed to. There is nothing that throwing more buffs onto them can't fix, vs SAM and DRG which have natural limitations imposed on them. DRG must chose between /WAR and /SAM, and SAM's GKT smacks into a damage ceiling which nothing can be done about (low total fTP on Shoha and Fudo). 1H all suck in situations when your fighting high level targets for the reasons Moten already stated. Their actually competitive when fighting ~7 LCF targets though or when everyone is underbuffed (low man / small man fights).

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

-=Edit=-

SAM and DRG do have a method of overcoming their systematic limits. Their respective mythics are world shaking awesomeness. Being mythics their incredibly rare and often left out of the damage comparison. A Ryunohige DRG and Kogarasumaru SAM are on equal footing as a Rag / Ukon DRK / WAR. Conqueror is also a pretty epic weapon though Upheaval could use some adjusting.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Regarding Content

To start off, we are looking into adjustments for new Nyzul, Legion, Odin's Chamber II, Voidwatch (up to Provenance Watcher), Salvage, and in the event there is further necessity, new Salvage as well.

Below is what we are looking into for adjustments.

• New Nyzul
  • Adjustments to the warp range of floors
• Legion
  • Adjustments to monster levels
  • Adjustments to attack power and defense
• Odin's Chamber II
  • Adjustments to monster levels
• Voidwatch
  • Expand the usage range of the void clusters to Provenance (Provenance Watcher)
• Salvage
  • Re-examine the drop rate of level 35 equipment
  • Make a change so that monsters other than the NMs that spawn from ramparts in Bhaflau Remnants drop the same equipment
• Walk of Echoes
  • Adjustments to monster levels
  • Remove EX status from each type of coin
  • Add sacks that contain multiple Devious Die and Liminal Residue

Past this, we will continue to make adjustments as necessary, and we will be making it so strategy and play style variations can be developed instead of having to win with a huge amount of fire power in a short amount of time.

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Since this part has been mostly left alone by people it seems, I would like to give my input on it.

The change to Nyzul is good, however it seems like it stays true to the most annoying thing about the event itself. Adjusting the range of floor warps, this could either be increasing or decreasing it, for now I assume it will be increased. The problem with this is that currently the most annoying thing about the event is the amount of luck needed to win. By increasing the range that you can jump, say for example, from 2~11 up to 2~15 it is making it possible for you to get higher numbers, and improving the average, however a massive luck factor remains. So while this is an improvement, I would like to see something changed that takes some of the luck out of the event itself if possible.

Legion changes sound nice, I personally have not done much of it, however I think part of the problem with the event is also the most recently added mob families such as Gallu and Naraka have some very overpowering special attacks, which also need to be looked into. For example, Oblivion's Mantle, strong damage, weakness, and 10-count doom, from a single attack, seems fairly unbalanced. This is not only effecting Legion, but it is part of the problem with the event I believe because unlike in Voidwatch, which is where you encounter them the most, you have no real shield against them besides the soon to be nerfed Perfect Defense.

Voidwatch, well, allowing clusters to be used on Provenance means that a lot more people will be getting the gear they want from that event, seeing as the drop rates on his gear are not all to terrible so far as I know, and shout groups will be able to clear the fight much more easily. However, this is not the adjustment most people are looking for in VW, while this will make many people happy, we still wait to hear something about a change to drop rates or how to obtain them. Sometime recently we heard that our wonderful new producer likes point systems, and I would not be surprised if I was not the only one hoping that he will include one here. This post does not mention it, but I would like to know if there are any plans of something such as that for the future of Voidwatch. Many people have complained since its introduction into the game about drop rates and the massive luck involved in even the higher drop rate items. People have killed these monsters hundreds of times without seeing their rewards drop, can we please get some form of update that will change this very annoying and angering system?

Salvage is a great change, it will help people get both the new and old gear, and will hopefully make the event much more popular and worth doing. Not sure that there is much else to say on this subject other than thank you, and even though it took a very long time for these changes to be announced that they are being planed on, I think it is still a great thing to be doing.

While I think the changes to Walk of Echoes will not change most peoples minds about making the Trials of Magian versions of Emp weapons, I do think it is a good idea to make these changes as it will hope those who do want to make them or have been in the process of it. One of my primary hopes about this however is that perhaps we will not have to see only pet jobs able to fight in the event, as I know for now it seems as though if you are not a SMN, PUP, or BST, then you are effectively worthless in the battle.



Since we have had a few questions directly answered in this thread it seems, I would like to ask one or two myself if possible. Is there any chance we will be seeing a point system in Voidwatch sometime before the release of Seekers, and if so, how might it work? I recall talk of Crystal Petrifacts being used for something else when the Chocobo Blinker nerf was done, and the ability to trade them for cruor was held back, around the same time is when we heard that we may be seeing more point system like functions in the game. So I would also like to know if they might be involved in something like that, or what the current plans are for Crystal Petrifacts outside of Provenance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

[...]

Voidwatch, well, allowing clusters to be used on Provenance means that a lot more people will be getting the gear they want from that event, seeing as the drop rates on his gear are not all to terrible so far as I know, and shout groups will be able to clear the fight much more easily. However, this is not the adjustment most people are looking for in VW, while this will make many people happy, we still wait to hear something about a change to drop rates or how to obtain them. Sometime recently we heard that our wonderful new producer likes point systems, and I would not be surprised if I was not the only one hoping that he will include one here. This post does not mention it, but I would like to know if there are any plans of something such as that for the future of Voidwatch. Many people have complained since its introduction into the game about drop rates and the massive luck involved in even the higher drop rate items. People have killed these monsters hundreds of times without seeing their rewards drop, can we please get some form of update that will change this very annoying and angering system?

[...]

Since we have had a few questions directly answered in this thread it seems, I would like to ask one or two myself if possible. Is there any chance we will be seeing a point system in Voidwatch sometime before the release of Seekers, and if so, how might it work? I recall talk of Crystal Petrifacts being used for something else when the Chocobo Blinker nerf was done, and the ability to trade them for cruor was held back, around the same time is when we heard that we may be seeing more point system like functions in the game. So I would also like to know if they might be involved in something like that, or what the current plans are for Crystal Petrifacts outside of Provenance.

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I share the same questions. I gave up on VoidWatch when my fellows became increasingly upset with the drop system. While I can play hardcore, I would much rather chill, relax, and have fun. Going to an event that quickly beomes a rant-fest is not fun. Even the hardcore side of me is asking "what is the point?"

I enjoy things that are challenging but the prize should be equal to that of the challenge. A bazillion logs that I can't use is not an equivalent exchange for my effort and time to fight any Notorious Monster.

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I think the changes to Walk of Echoes will not change most peoples minds about making the Trials of Magian versions of Emp weapons

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This is especially true because this is coming alongside a significant change to the availability of merit WSs to our secondary/tertiary jobs. If they want people to be enticed to spend a significant amount of time and/or gil to obtain WoE weapons, they need to either strengthen those weapons, or greatly reduce the dice/residue required so the reward seems good for the effort.

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Originally Posted by saevel

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

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Stop making sense now. If my Thief or Dancer or <insert other 1H job here> can't do at least 90% of the damage as a 2H then I'll be stuck at soloing Dynamis better, evading better, curing myself better, using magic in a pinch better, ad nauseum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kincard

This is especially true because this is coming alongside a significant change to the availability of merit WSs to our secondary/tertiary jobs. If they want people to be enticed to spend a significant amount of time and/or gil to obtain WoE weapons, they need to either strengthen those weapons, or greatly reduce the dice/residue required so the reward seems good for the effort.

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A big enticement for me to do Walk of Echoes would be for it to drop heavy metal pouches.

Also why can't crystal petrifacts be traded in for voidstones, or something worthwhile like 1 gil or higher?

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Originally Posted by TheBarrister

Also why can't crystal petrifacts be traded in for voidstones, or something worthwhile like 1 gil or higher?

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Petrifacts --> Voidstones would create an infinite cycle that would result in unlimited stones, if that were to happen, the stone system itself would become pointless in every way. Conversion to gil is a bad idea because of the reason that, like blinkers, it would create gil from nothing, harming the economy.

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Originally Posted by Kincard

Your argument is that utility makes up for gaps in damage. I am here to tell you that aside from 2 handers providing utility of their own, this is not true. It doesn't matter what "utility" my blue mage brings, it's not going to make up for the fact that a 2 hander can, by default, do 25% more damage than I can, and reach this max much easier.

nope

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Blue for example is almost overpowered with utility. How many sleeps they have? How many are aoe? How many stuns? How many heals? Do they have aoe erase? Why yes they do. Can they self skillchain easily? Can they do heavy aoe damage? Are they arguably the strongest job in low man content or not? IF blue mage is anywhere close to 2 handed DD on High end content it would be horribly "unbalanced." You think people don't care about this utility? You can't throw a byne bill anywhere in game without it hitting one of the hundreds of blues running around. That is one job that never needs an upgrade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheBarrister

A big enticement for me to do Walk of Echoes would be for it to drop heavy metal pouches.

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I like the idea of plates being added to lower fluxes, perhaps add pouches to 12~15, and Cinder/Dross to 15.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Holy sh!t. I've never been for a rate down button on this forum but right now I'm extremely close. Are people still demanding nerfs to WAR/DRK resolution out of spite instead of the appropriate buffs to Entropy / Upheaval / MT?

Nerfing Res / Rag won't change a damn thing. DRK's use it because Scyth sucks right now, haste gear is so easy to acquire that Apoc's lost much of it's usefulness in pure damage. Still rocks for DRK PDT tanking though. WAR's switch between Ukko / Res depending on their target. Rag is just more convenient to acquire. You can spam dyna every day for the currency and build it vs Ukko requiring you to farm Abyssea's NMs, one of which is an annoying sh!t to build pop sets for.

The whole reason you see WAR + DRK as the top DD's is due to how high their damage potential can be buffed to. There is nothing that throwing more buffs onto them can't fix, vs SAM and DRG which have natural limitations imposed on them. DRG must chose between /WAR and /SAM, and SAM's GKT smacks into a damage ceiling which nothing can be done about (low total fTP on Shoha and Fudo). 1H all suck in situations when your fighting high level targets for the reasons Moten already stated. Their actually competitive when fighting ~7 LCF targets though or when everyone is underbuffed (low man / small man fights).

If people are going to comments on the relative damage hierarchy, at least understand why it is the way it is. Otherwise your just muddying up the waters even further and have become counter productive.

-=Edit=-

SAM and DRG do have a method of overcoming their systematic limits. Their respective mythics are world shaking awesomeness. Being mythics their incredibly rare and often left out of the damage comparison. A Ryunohige DRG and Kogarasumaru SAM are on equal footing as a Rag / Ukon DRK / WAR. Conqueror is also a pretty epic weapon though Upheaval could use some adjusting.

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Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

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DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Resolution is still too good compared to everything else. You already said that relics are easier to make than other alternatives, much less OaT Greatswords. Make a crappy system where the best is also the easiest and all of a sudden there are a ton of 'the best' overnight. Resolution doesn't need to be what it is for this game to still be good. It would just require jobs to go back to working on more difficult content.

Scythes do most certainly need a buff. Insurgency, Quietus, and Entropy are all junk compared to similar WS. Insurgency is the reason that DRK mythic is so bad. Quietus is an amazing LOOKING WS, but that is it. Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK. Anything you would use a Scythe for could be done better with a Greatsword at this point. Even DRK/THF for best Epeen/screenshot numbers goes to Torcleaver instead of Spiral Hell.

Ragnarok is the highest DPS Weapon in the game and has the best WS in the game as far as output goes. Buffed or unbuffed, Resolution beats Entropy, Quietus, and Insurgency without trying. Scythes are the loser in all situations involving DPS to greatswords and their WSs. There is no reason to use Scythes anymore. They need to buff Scythes, give DRKs reasons to need MP, and take Resolution down a peg.

I know 3 Scythe DRKs that either have quit in the last 3 months or are quitting because they are sick of not having a single WS that is worth using anymore and they don't like Greatswords. I know a DRK that has a Liberator and doesn't use it because it's garbage compared to his Resolution spam. Resolution has taken away people's ability to identify with their jobs and that is cancerous for diversity as well as SEs pocketbook.

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DRG just needs to have Gungir's additional affect snipped off or modified to work with instead of against Angon so that their job can function properly. SAM is good, just not great and SAM are used to being great. Both Mythics make both jobs damage Juggernauts because of the way both jobs work with WSing. At least with SAM, the Masamune is easy to make and plays well with Tachi: Shoha. Gungir and Rhongomiant are both junk and everyone knows it that actually plays.

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Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable. Plus Resolution has an 8% attack penalty, that becomes VERY noticeable when your not buffed. And as I said before, the whole reason we use WAR + DRK is because we can keep throwing more buffs on them to ensure every combat variable is capped out. It becomes a game of which combination of job + weapon has the highest possible cap on their variables.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

For those who do pure math I believe mythic SAM is actually the most overpowered job. Any nerf to resolution would also have to include a nerf to Shoha in the interest of fairness.

Also tp bonus SAM is every bit as powerful as OAT GS Drk

My personal opinion on Matsui-san ideas

• 1-handed modifiers
  Currently 2handed weapons have a 1:0,75 conversion rate from stats (STR>Attack, DEX>Accuracy etc), while 1-handed weapons have 1:0,5
  I welcome any kind of change to 1-handed weapons jobs, altough I'm a bit unsure if this could be the right solution.
  Let's go back in time a bit and remember why the ration was changed. Yes, long time ago 2handed weapons had 1:0,5 ratio too. It was changed mainly in the attempt to make some jobs use the weapons they were originally meant to use, for example Warrior using Great Axe. Initially it was changed to 1:1, and then to 1:0,75 after a while.
  It took a while to the player base to get used to it, but it sorta worked.
  2handed jobs were mostly preferred to 1 handed jobs because of the damage tier of their weapons, because of their higher attack, because of their higher accuracy, because they were giving the enemy less TP. (this is another very important mechanism of FFXI that should be addressed. Some times some monsters are easier if fought with less people than more, and this is kinda ridiculous if you ask me)
  
  Changing the modifier ratio for 1handed weapon users (only for the main weapon and not offhand?) brings the risk of making some 1handed weapons jobs too strong, hence requiring furhter nerfs after the change. People hate nerfs, if you think something is gonna be too powerful and require a nerf after, just don't do it.
  
  Aren't there really any other solutions? Some job trait that only activates when you use 1 handed weapons and that gives some bonus of some sort?
  
• Merit Points weapon skills
  Sorry but the suggested change won't make anybody happy and won't change a thing.
  We currently have two main kind of users we can think of
  1) "Easy" players
  2) "Hardcore" players
  
  The first category doesn't really care much about being best at anything, they just enjoy the game no matter what. This category of players already makes use of 1/5 upgrades weapon skills, they are not complaining about the current situation, changing it won't bring any effect on this category.
  
  The second category is made by people who really want to excel at things. If they do something, they want it to be the best possible. If they take a weapon skill, they want it to be the best.
  Making it 65% with 1/5 won't be enough, because it still won't be as good as it can possibly be. They'll still want to get 5/5 and they'll still complain they can't do it for more than 3 weapon skills.
  
  Really Mr. Matsui, I don't see why you and your team are being so adamant in not allowing a merit cap increase.
  People are running out of jobs to experience, they are running out of things to merit. Giving them more stuff to "buy" with merits would only increase the value of merit points, the value of getting them, and would keep the cycle on.
  If things go on like this soon there won't be any player left who still look for experience points, leaving those who do in a mess because they won't be able to find a group to do experience points with.
  
  I really don't see what's the point in limiting the Weapon Skills category.
  Please, if you think there is a good reason explain it to us, maybe I will agree with you after reading it.
  Thank you.
  
• Elemental Magic Adjustments
  I have mixed feelings about these changes.
  Some of the things you proposed look very good, but having different element spells require different stats will only make it worse.
  Compared to other games FFXI mechanisms are already particularly complicated.
  If you do that change people will need different sets, different gear for each different element.
  A set to nuke for earth spell, a set to nuke for fire spell, a set to nuke for thunder spells.
  It would be a mess, especially with our limited inventories.
  At the moment, altough there are some specific equipments (elemental obis, staves etc) you want the same stats for the same spell. Making you require to focus on, say, intellect for earth and then, say, Mab for Thunder, would only make things even more complicated than they already are.
  Plese, don't do that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by saevel

Except you weren't talking about buffing Scyth / ect. You were talking about Nerfing Rag / Resolution to force WAR's to use GAXE and to force DRK's to use Scyth. Nerfing Res and DRK will still use Rag, Scyth sucks that much. Buff Scyth and there is a chance that it would be viable.

As I said above, spouting sh!t without knowing the mechanics behind the decisions of the player base has you doing nothing but mudding up the waters.

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Really? because my first post about this subject said take a hit off of resolution and add it to Entropy and Quietus. Buff Scythes, nerf greatsword was in my second post. I play DRK with a Scythe or Dual Wielding 1H axes which is why I don't play DRK anymore. It's not my job anymore. It doesn't look like my old job. And I have no interest in going back to it with a greatsword and still no good magic. Then I would just be WAR-1 or maybe WAR-0.5.

Please just cuss if you are going to cuss and stop thinking everyone is an idiot. It makes you look really foolish some days when we all know you aren't an idiot.


I'm most interested in whether the Haste on LR is going to be just for 2H or for everyone. If it's for everyone, I can see a lot of jobs using /DRK if there is 15% Haste along with 15% attack up and defense down, compared to 25% up and down from berserk. This might be really nice considering that losing Defense might actually become a problem soon. MNK/DRK, BLU/DRK, DNC/DRK I can see becoming really popular because they all have the ability to heal themselves in the event that they use Soul Eater for WSs and SCs. Any job with native dual wield will probably look hard at /DRK.

RDM will as usual come out behind because they don't have native dual wield. BLU/DRK would destroy RDM/Anything for DPS if they are given an additional 15% Haste with LR, Attack Traits, and SE. If for some reason RDM was given Dual Wield 3 natively and could RDM/DRK under the same conditions, I would probably never stop playing this game. $$$ and such until they shut down the servers.

DRK itself almost comes out ahead because they have the option of Abyss Sollerets to recoup some of their lost Defense from LR. So in the case that they have to be defensive, they can keep their offense as high as WAR, but possibly have higher Defense.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

Entropy actually puts out decent damage, but not as much as Resolution, and MP doesn't really matter on DRK because they never took the time to make that relevant on DRK.

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Actually, that's an interesting little aside. With the magic changes, the cast times on T1-T3 nukes went down considerably. T1 are near-instant; T2 are the same speed as :ni ninjutsu; T3 are as fast as Thunder is now. Plus they're all significantly more MP efficient, and dInt (fun with Absorb-Int) has a much greater impact. Is this a step towards making drk spellcasting more useful?

Playing around with it, it looks like a Stone III/Water III would take about as long to cast as a 50%-60% hasted scythe swing (considering from the scythe perspective due to Entropy; doesn't change that scythe needs improvements to really be a valid choice vs greatsword). Would have damage in the 300-400 range with around 30-60 dInt; with something in the range of 50 MAB range from gear, 450-600 total damage (~1.5x to 2x a normal swing). The MP cost isn't that bad, at 64-75 MP, and it would return about 10 TP from Occult Acumen.

Not enough to decidedly replace normal melee, but enough that I could see it being at least marginally useful, particularly in unbuffed situations. Also, at the bottom end with T1s, could a very fast-casting spell that gives back a couple TP be useful in making an easy improvement to any x-hit build?

Would need a more experienced drk to make a better evaluation, though.

You still believe Scythe WSs are in need of buffing because they are generally out performed by almost every other 2H weapon though?

Is that a correct assumption?

hell.. +1 just for the detailed post lol