Fast leveling in Parties - hot spots

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Originally Posted by nyheen

old school guys.. aleast we had lot fun in the past back in the day with the exp pts, lot great camps etc. but that not gonna happen anymore, now n days it all about naked leech/key people. i guess this what the people now call fun, leeching, paying for a leech pt & afking. like who pay gils to afk for exp that boring.lol?

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This is the most commonly said about leeching and the like, and all I have to say to it is, that is boring as hell. The fun is what you do at level 99, everything upto it would be boring no matter what for alot of people because it would either involve alot of soloing, or the pain of finding others like yourself who want to level in a 6 man party in old areas. In either case the point is that the leeching is not fun, thats not why people do it, they do it so they can get to the fun part of actually playing that job in a much more meaningful way.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

With the exception of automaton and summoning skills, skilling up after leveling up is probably not gonna take more time than slowing down the leveling to let skilling catch up. In either case, you get around a lot of this problem by not staying at 20-sync parties all the way to 70, but instead change to parties where the sync is at 35-55 (CN) and 65-72(Bostanieux). At those higher levels, skill levels will increase a lot by just playing. I'd usually come out with just 50 points below cap at lv70 after bostanieux.

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I merely meant that the OP should solo some GoV if they're not finding any book burns (on Shiva its not uncommon during the week for gusgen to be empty). And as for the 10-67 smn comment, was just an illustration how ridiculously easy and effortless xp is these days lol.

On Siren these areas are nearly dead now. I've seen activity in Gusgen Mines, but also spent two weeks in Crawler Nest before finding someone willing to team up. Nowadays people just burn in Gusgen up to 30 and then go pay the RMTs for FC burn parties.

Honestly, if putting a lv75 entry requirement in Abyssea is too much for SE, I wish they would at least change Fell Cleave's nature (either make it magical damage like most of other weapon's AoEs, or make it single-target) and stop the RMTs.

Why nerf chocobo blinkers and make it harder for all players when you could change a weapon skill and target the Real Money Traders? Keep it up at this rate and only the richest players (IRL and in-game) will be able to get anything achieved in this game at all.

I've been playing since 2006. I never had the RL cash to afford two accounts to dual box and never had over 700K on my character. My in-game progress compared to the other players was just fine pre-abyssea. Prices for gear were manageable, people would actually team up to do stuff instead of dual boxing by themselves (because sharing... oh noez!), and leveling was easy for any range of player. Now instead, everything is about either dual boxing or burning by payment, and my progress has pretty much stopped. Seeing how everything is now so money-dependant really throws me off.

MMORPG 2012: Massively Multicharacter Online Rabidly Paying Gilsellers.

I am glad SE not changing the nature of fell cleave or putting level 75 limitation for Abyssea. Leveling is moot point, total inconvenience, just a relic of old times gone by. The fun start at 95-99. Do you not realize that if they change the entry level of abyssea, book burning RMT will just move to somewhere else, namely Boyahda Tree and Zeruhm Mines. It is ridiculously easy to pump those exp round there via books and beastmaster job. The old school style is never gone. You find it in assault, salvage, nyzuls and its neo counterpart, limbus, meeble burrows, and tons of level capped BCNMs. Everything else is all about gear hunting and for most of the gears you do not need gil EVER. Just time. You are paying for someone else's time if you are buying gil to speed up your relic or mythic. And if you have the money, why not, that's how economy works, the haves buy your time, the not haves sell their time.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Leveling is moot point, total inconvenience, just a relic of old times gone by.

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This is 100% correct. The problem is that shouldn't be the case.

Technically you can still do your 6 person set up. And actually be rewarded just as much, with 400-600 exp per kill, more if you are using the anniversary ring. The BIG problem is that you level so fast, all the old school camps will be dead spot within an hour you get there and xp will drop to a meager 200 ish once you get your 4-5 levels. Think about it, between level 10s-50s, only take you 3k-8k per level. At average of 500 xp plus exp bonus, you get around 3k per 4 xp chains and bonus book (or more). Which means at Valkrum, you will level roughly every 10-12 mnts, or even much less. Changing camps every one hour or so probably not the most efficient ways to run exp party.

Obviously certain dungeons are still great for this. Example is Crawler Nest and Boyahda Tree where the mob level range is the greatest. You can level from 55-99 if you choose staying in Boyahda Tree and actually get massive skill ups to 270s on old school mobs and max skill ups on the newer level 98-102 mobs. The problem is gears and access to areas. Not many newbies do exploration. And they certainly not going to carry gears that sustain 10-20 levels in one partying session. They are probably not even aware of ToAU camps or WoTG ones. Level synch can only get you so far, trying to find a new synch every 45-60 mnts can get tiresome fast. GoV is best done in alliance, more efficient and more convenient.

As Arcon has pointed out, you learn nothing in normal exp party, nothing at all. Useless wasted time. You are better off learning those abilities in abyssea or other endgame activities. Nothing forced you to learn and open wiki when you get wiped by NMs or your ignorance lost you valuable items. Small party set up really gives you no room for error, either know your jobs, or die trying. That's what abyssea is for, a fun battle ground for you to explore the jobs and its abilities. And then deal with the harsh reality of outside abyssea lol, hopefully you learn enough on how to play your job to survive :P

Really, SE should just artificially start every job as level 99, since all the content starts there, and there is practically nothing from lvl 1 to 90, unless you count Nation missions as "content".

MMOs really shouldn't be like this though. There's a lack of world-building in this game that should've been present during the level grind, and while it was kinda there back in 2005-07, it's hardly there now.

Responding to your edit, I never agreed with the "leveling slowly allows you to learn your job" thing. In fact I find it a stupid arguement. This game, especially in comparison to other MMOs, is really easy to pick up. I just find that FFXI as a whole lacks that world-building element to it. Everything in the damn game feels so routine and lacking innovation. This doesn't deal with just the leveling "problem" (I don't find it a problem at all), but with content for the game as a whole.

I think the game now is all about options. You can take the express train or you can do it at your own very slow pace. This applies for leveling or doing end game activities. Which is a great thing. Most people take the express train and start the endgame grind, others just do what they want in regards to what other people told them to do. You now can do whatever you want in the game. Slow or fast, solo or small groups, 18 people or 36 people.

Ive seen people go to zehrun mines from 10+ so long as they take a high level friend. Pages make up the loss of exp per mob. Dont forget to skillup though if you are in all these parties or even at 99 you will suck

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Originally Posted by katz

Ive seen people go to zehrun mines from 10+ so long as they take a high level friend. Pages make up the loss of exp per mob. Dont forget to skillup though if you are in all these parties or even at 99 you will suck

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Pretty sure its as low as lv7 (iirc, my mule's whm was only 7 when i started zeruhn pages on her)

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I am glad SE not changing the nature of fell cleave or putting level 75 limitation for Abyssea. Leveling is moot point, total inconvenience, just a relic of old times gone by.

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There is a reason if EXP has the word 'Experience' in it. Experience is not something you gain by paying out someone to burn your AFK character and then get off the chair to go do something else.

About learning one's job in abyssea, instead... I frankly have never seen a thief using SATA in there. Abyssea may be nice to learn a job when you don't require teamwork to do so, but when cooperating with other players comes in, an alliance is the worst situation ever.

Thieves don't use SATA in there because there is no point in using it in there, not because they don't know how to use it.

Additionally, the current broken enmity system makes it even more annoying to use, and people don't actually let thieves fight the real hard shit anyway. Furthermore, the after JA delay eats up half of the extra damage you get from it in terms of lost autoattack damage.

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Originally Posted by Kjara

About learning one's job in abyssea, instead... I frankly have never seen a thief using SATA in there. Abyssea may be nice to learn a job when you don't require teamwork to do so, but when cooperating with other players comes in, an alliance is the worst situation ever.

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Oh don't you worry, I always use SATA against those AFK leechers in alliance, Ugly Range is best place for this. Not so easy when you are doing worm party, which is one of the worst alliance, but at least you can run around like idiots while gaining xp. Unfortunately, that's about it, you don't exactly get to use it when you solo tank abyssea content or in alliance. Skillchain and Magic Burst is still a must have though. I always try to magic burst it when I dual box Blu/Ninja + Blm/Whm doing seal farm. Look, if you want to learn your jobs, there are plenty of information out there. The people who wants to know more will always seek more. The rest, will be just a bunch of clueless groups as usual. This thing exist even when the game launched in 2003 here in the US. The noobies boobies always exist, they just do whackaton and cure spam, with no regards of how things are supposed to be done in co-operation set up. They are the ones who always end up dead on Meeble Burrow because they have no idea what it means to survive on your own.

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Originally Posted by Kjara

There is a reason if EXP has the word 'Experience' in it. Experience is not something you gain by paying out someone to burn your AFK character and then get off the chair to go do something else.

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Your right, you gain it by playing the game, in relevant content, where you actually experience the same situations you will actually be using that info in. You list SATA as an example, as Mirage said, SATA is basically worthless in the game now, so yeah, not something you really need experience in using, because you would only use it for leveling. As I posted earlier...

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

Leveling DRK in xp parties where I would try not to take hate off the tank so I don't die, while the healer has to keep an eye on MP and enmity, should easily prep me for my endgame when I zerg everything to hell with Resolution and my healers have near unlimited MP thanks to gear, sub jobs, and temps while there is no real tank and enmity is capped on basically everyone in the Alliance.

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Incase you missed the point I was making. Experience parties and endgame are 2 completely different things, and play completely differently than one another. In xp parties you play with enmity actually mattering, it can cause you to wipe your entire party if you play stupidly, in end game, you don't give 2 shits about enmity, you just beat the hell out of whatever you are fighting regardless. In xp parties you need your mages to watch their MP, they can run out fairly easy if they don't pay attention, in endgame, we have tons of temps, refresh, convert, refresh gear, gear that returns MP from doing your job,(looking at you Orison+2 legs and Meebles nuking body) its nothing alike! The point is, leveling and endgame are 2 separate things, you do not gain any experience in endgame, from the leveling experience, just as you do not learn any leveling experience from endgame, they are entirely different in most aspects. Your complaint would make sense if enmity were actually important, if DPS and enmity were actually highly effected by SATA and other tactics like it, if MP were limited and mages had to play the same. The problem is, all of this is not the case, and until it somehow is, what you ask for is foolish and wrong, because your believing in something that does not actually exist.

In other words, experience is gained through playing the game in which ever content is similar to that of which you are doing. If you are doing zerg content you will learn nothing from slow paced content where you let a single person tank and the others go in for WSs. If you are doing objective based events experience from VW, a zerg event, will not help you. People are still getting experience, just not in the form of points, rather in the form of what experience truly is, the act of doing it, and learning from what you do, so you can become better and learn how to progress, that is what experience is, and it still happens all over this game.

Agree, there are so many aspects of this game, and putting a big hope that one will learn their jobs through normal 6 persons party set up is moot point. That is one aspect of the game, which is nice to a degree but not exactly the norm now when it comes to endgame. Granted people need to learn the concept of team work. Which can easily be learn by duo trio as well. Knowing the jobs mean you can survive in any situation, using all the abilities of that said job + sub jobs and some common sense. Endgame and casual set up are two different experience. Even endgame itself have the old school flavor and abyssea flavor.

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Originally Posted by Mayoyama

Pretty sure its as low as lv7 (iirc, my mule's whm was only 7 when i started zeruhn pages on her)

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It depends on how many people are in a party. With only two people, one leech and one Lv.99 character, the leech can be Lv.5 and still get EXP.

I feel like dynamis is a good place to make up for having power leveled by key leeching in abyssea. It has most of the elements of playing your job in a low man party and gives skillup. I agree that it is still fun hitting level 35 in a small group because you usually get a cool job ability at level 30 and get to play around with it, but when the xp/level starts getting to be big numbers in the level 50+ range, I usually opt for the Abyssea leveling. Granted, a new player may benefit from the experience, but for me there really isn't that much learning to do leveling dark knight when I already have a warrior and 11 other jobs that I leveled old school style back at 75.

I tried to do the Boyahda Tree with 5 other people doing your typical party, while farming for LB 99 items and finishing the book. I can say that the experience was not fun at all. Why bother wasting time killing trash mob for exp chain when I can do the same killing NMs in Abyssea for much better drops. It's similar dynamic, much more hectic and adrenaline driven, with a better rewards than chain 4 for 350 xp lol. I can see how dynamis could work wonder, especially with the currency drop and forgotten items plus relic gears. But trying to get 6 people and splitting ancient currency can be quite a headache. Unless you just let items drop automatically, and let people lot the relic gears they need.

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Originally Posted by Amaroq

I just recently upgraded from chariot to the empress ring. One thing i noticed is the 15sec timer counts down but the other timers on the ring dont, and i never lose a charge. I was usually getting about 120 xp per kill.

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Just wanted to respond to this from page 2...

After equipping the ring and waiting for the 15 sec countdown, you ARE going into items menu and 'use'ing it?

- "The real game starts at Lv99, everything before that is boring."
Let's start the game at cap and because developers can't keep up in content, players will find standing in town much more exciting.

- "Grinding doesn't teach you to play your job."
Question asked by a Lv99 Samurai: "Hey guys, is Tachi: Enpi a good WS?"

- "The old grind is still there, you have options you're not taking advantage of."
Almost anyone and everyone who enjoyed the type of game-play FFXI once had have gone because it is gone. The majority of those that remain have little to no interest in going back to it, and therefore the option is a lie.

- "Every LS I join falls apart after a few weeks/months."
A community of players whose primary focus is getting it done via the greasiest rail now available have not the time to form bonds made from extended hours playing together in achieving a common goal. A rolling stone gathers no moss.

- "Just because you enjoy the grind doesn't mean the whole existing community must change for you."
I don't expect you to change. I expect you to walk out the same door you walked in through. Your short-sighted tunnel-vision has degraded this game from a time-consuming tedious adventure experienced throughout all of its areas into a starry-eyed quest for gear and personal glory.

Developers have adopted a wholly contradictory approach to MMORPG's as of late: "Let's get them to the end as quickly as possible, so that when they get to the end, they'll have little reason to keep logging in." And once they stop logging in regularly because they have accomplished so much (or sick of doing the same luck-based content for the millionth time), and this multiplied over and over because it is the state of the game, soon you've got a hodgepodge of players that log in to do new content and players that log in because they're new to the game.

Worry not, though. The end is in sight for those who are only concerned with getting there.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

- "The real game starts at Lv99, everything before that is boring."
Let's start the game at cap and because developers can't keep up in content, players will find standing in town much more exciting.

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That's only natural and is the case for every MMORPG ever, and will always remain that way. The longer people play, the more the average level will shift to the upper end, which means that's where the content needs to be. So of course content will be centered around end levels. And the longer a MMORPG lives, the more content will be released for said levels. So if a MMORPG is around for as much time as FFXI has been, a bulk of the content will be designed for high level players. Now the development team has to ask themselves what a person wanting to level a new job will want: do they wanna spend weeks of grinding it through all the levels again like they did five times before? Or do they want it because they saw someone else play it at 99 and thought it could be a fun job? Or maybe even useful for an event?

If it's the latter two, they won't be able to play it like they want to unless they go through weeks of torture. And it gets worse the longer the game goes on, because the higher the average level shifts, the less people will be willing to EXP, meaning it only gets harder to get there. EXPing now with the previous system would be next to impossible because almost everyone who wanted to level a job has leveled it. And casual leveling of another job wouldn't happen, because it wasn't worth it unless you really planned on fully utilizing that job.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

- "Grinding doesn't teach you to play your job."
Question asked by a Lv99 Samurai: "Hey guys, is Tachi: Enpi a good WS?"

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Quote by a Lv75 career SAM who just got Byakko's Haidate: "Wiki says I can self-SC with Meikyo Shusui, but I don't have that WS."

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

- "The old grind is still there, you have options you're not taking advantage of."
Almost anyone and everyone who enjoyed the type of game-play FFXI once had have gone because it is gone. The majority of those that remain have little to no interest in going back to it, and therefore the option is a lie.

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It definitely is harder, because the infrastructure is worse. That's not a bad thing though. If you can't find five people to level the way you want, then it's a good thing SE removed that option, because obviously it isn't popular.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

- "Every LS I join falls apart after a few weeks/months."
A community of players whose primary focus is getting it done via the greasiest rail now available have not the time to form bonds made from extended hours playing together in achieving a common goal. A rolling stone gathers no moss.

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First, wanting to level up quickly does not equate to wanting to finish the game as quickly as possible. If people wanted that, they wouldn't be playing a MMORPG. Second, the majority of EXPing did not happen within a linkshell. It was either shouting or flagging up and waiting for random people to invite you. Sure, LS parties did happen, but that wasn't where bonds were formed. It was during static mission groups, doing events daily with the people around you, talking to them regardless of what you were doing, even if you never saw each others' characters. There are still linkshells that have been around for years, and there were a myriad of linkshells that dried out and disbanded within weeks. The only reason you notice it more these days is because the population in general is lower.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

- "Just because you enjoy the grind doesn't mean the whole existing community must change for you."
I don't expect you to change. I expect you to walk out the same door you walked in through. Your short-sighted tunnel-vision has degraded this game from a time-consuming tedious adventure experienced throughout all of its areas into a starry-eyed quest for gear and personal glory.

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Then you expect something entirely unrealistic. Take a look at FFXIV. Why do you think anyone at all kept playing after that disastrous start? Because they knew the game was going to change. They saw something was worth staying for, and trusted that time would fix the rest. That is the true nature for every MMORPG, they all change with time.

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

Developers have adopted a wholly contradictory approach to MMORPG's as of late: "Let's get them to the end as quickly as possible, so that when they get to the end, they'll have little reason to keep logging in."

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Completely wrong. You cannot get to the end quickly. You can get to the end of EXPing quickly. But the game does not consist of EXP, it never did, and it shouldn't be. EXP is the first step of the journey, and it's one of many.

I just got Eyeballed.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

It definitely is harder, because the infrastructure is worse. That's not a bad thing though. If you can't find five people to level the way you want, then it's a good thing SE removed that option, because obviously it isn't popular.

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I can aggre on this point with Eyeballed since i loved the lv grind.
It made the game enjoyable because u could always just log in and lv ure favourite jobs.
You was able to meet new people and effectively play with em in a 6 man group.
There was teamplay all the way, every job had its uses and u had something to do,
also there was nothing to hold u back from exploring vana'diel.

Nowadays, u just leech ure job up to 99 like a idiot with a IQ of 10 within few days and then u can hunt
some unnecessary lv 99 gear pieces aka wow style after u've finished ure af gear.
That's what the the game has turned into and it's incredible sad.
And i think they main reason noone is doing old style partys because it's senseless with abyseea out not that it isnt welcome, like eyeballed already said most people who enjoyed the game already left anyway with some coming back sometimes, like me, hoping for a change but i can't see much enjoyable in this game anymore.
I will be glad for clarification if there is content i'm missing who isnt totally senseless and worth the time, where u can play in partys, talk to people, have a challenge with some kind of exploration,progress and just have fun. I think such content has become incredibly rare.

All these resulted useless low lv areas and resulting useless crafts,gear and only a proof to me that SE
1. has got no idea what they are doing to the game or and this is more likely
2. just wants to finish it with some kind of "we have enough of this game, lets just do what we want and see what happens, if it fails, people who dont lke will go to ffxiv anyway and the addicted with no life will stay anyway, lolz" statement

Actually I'm hoping for FFXIV being good but we'll see. I'm hoping for a bright future tough.

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

I can aggre on this point with Eyeballed since i loved the lv grind.
It made the game enjoyable because u could always just log in and lv ure favourite jobs.
You was able to meet new people and effectively play with em in a 6 man group.
There was teamplay all the way, every job had its uses and u had something to do,
also there was nothing to hold u back from exploring vana'diel.

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None of this is even remotely true. You could not just log in and level, sometimes you had to wait days to get invited to a party. On the other hand, that is possible now, because you get more EXP solo than you got in an EXP party back in the day.

And many jobs were not welcome. BLM were shunned from parties, SMN were only used as healers, and only if nothing else was found, and weak DDs never even had a chance. BST and PUP were prejudiced out of the entire system. It was very exclusive and many jobs did not have their uses.

There was no teamplay, if people sucked the entire party disbanded, idiot tanks moved away from Trick Attack, idiot WARs didn't voke off healers, red mages thought they should DD, everyone just did what they thought was right, and often no one had a clue.

And how is the current system stopping you from exploring Vana'diel? Or are you referring to the camp hunting, because everything halfway decent was taken all the time?

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

I will be glad for clarification if there is content i'm missing who isnt totally senseless and worth the time, where u can play in partys, talk to people, have a challenge with some kind of exploration,progress and just have fun. I think such content has become incredibly rare.

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Then what do you call Voidwatch, Limbus, Abyssea, Einherjar, Legion, Meeble Burrows, and literally every event ever? Every event that isn't EXP, that is, because except for the "talking to people" part, none of what you mentioned applied to EXP. There was no challenge, there was no exploration, you only went to the same camps in Valkurm > Qufim > Jungle > Garlaige > CN > Kuftal/QSC > Birds. Before WotG and Level Sync, that is, afterwards it just because Valkurm > Qufim > Jungle > Garlaige > Birds > different Birds > different Birds > different Birds. At best.

Question to you, have you ever even done anything that wasn't EXP?

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Originally Posted by Ceinwyn

Nowadays, u just leech ure job up to 99 like a idiot with a IQ of 10

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Reading this sentence feels pretty ironic.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

That's only natural and is the case for every MMORPG ever, and will always remain that way. The longer people play, the more the average level will shift to the upper end, which means that's where the content needs to be. So of course content will be centered around end levels. And the longer a MMORPG lives, the more content will be released for said levels. So if a MMORPG is around for as much time as FFXI has been, a bulk of the content will be designed for high level players. Now the development team has to ask themselves what a person wanting to level a new job will want: do they wanna spend weeks of grinding it through all the levels again like they did five times before?

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While this might be true for FFXI, there is at least one other newly-released MMO I have experience with that has embraced the same attitude toward minimizing the grind timesink which after a number of months those who were ambitious (most) to complete the content that existed found themselves with caps across the board and shortly after left standing around with their hands in their pockets. You can implement the greased-rail grind in an MMO such as XI that already has a lot of content in place, but you can't do it with a new MMO which potentially needs the grind as a buffer while new content is being created and implemented. An extremely gradual release from the constraints of a classic grind is more in order than going full-throttle from the get-go.

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Quote by a Lv75 career SAM who just got Byakko's Haidate: "Wiki says I can self-SC with Meikyo Shusui, but I don't have that WS."

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Fair enough, but that sounds like idiocy more so than ignorance. Still don't buy the notion that someone who has relatively no experience at their job due to afk-leveling and other forms of speed-grinding as opposed to someone who's forced to pay attention and invoke every ability and spell in their repertoire holds any equal or greater sway in ensuring the majority of players have learned at least the basics of their job and role. To me, that's just common sense; If all you needed in life was crash courses, there'd be little need to go to school 1/4 of your life learning the basics.

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It definitely is harder, because the infrastructure is worse. That's not a bad thing though. If you can't find five people to level the way you want, then it's a good thing SE removed that option, because obviously it isn't popular.

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It isn't popular with the current players, which in relation to what I've said, the whole of those players who enjoyed or didn't mind it have gone. To say it isn't popular is skewed to the subject group. Kind of like going into a Japanese sushi bar and asking everyone if they like tacos.

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First, wanting to level up quickly does not equate to wanting to finish the game as quickly as possible. If people wanted that, they wouldn't be playing a MMORPG. Second, the majority of EXPing did not happen within a linkshell. It was either shouting or flagging up and waiting for random people to invite you. Sure, LS parties did happen, but that wasn't where bonds were formed. It was during static mission groups, doing events daily with the people around you, talking to them regardless of what you were doing, even if you never saw each others' characters. There are still linkshells that have been around for years, and there were a myriad of linkshells that dried out and disbanded within weeks. The only reason you notice it more these days is because the population in general is lower.

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I'll try to be more clear in what I meant by this. People tend to form stronger bonds when they've endured times of struggle and hardship and overcame. The more they are subjected to these instances, the stronger the bond becomes. Granted, for the seasoned player, the grind is more second-nature than learning experience, but also part of the extended challenge is have a weaker player(s) in your group whom you have the opportunity to reach out to and teach to be better - therefore bonding. What when the weak players' inadequacies are virtually nullified because they have been supplemented by the potentials of 17 other people fighting EP mobs?

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Then you expect something entirely unrealistic. Take a look at FFXIV. Why do you think anyone at all kept playing after that disastrous start? Because they knew the game was going to change. They saw something was worth staying for, and trusted that time would fix the rest. That is the true nature for every MMORPG, they all change with time.

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"Anyone at all" being the operative phrase. It's hard to speculate exactly why so, so many have left the game up to this point, (certainly not because it's changed in the ways that keep people's interest), but I can tell you that both the "for" and "against" fast-grinding groups have seen major losses from both sides. So it's hard to say in that regard. What I can say is, because of the mere fact that respectable numbers from opposing sides exist who argue back and forth, the word "popular" is a bit of a misnomer. Having said that, on to the last point...

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Completely wrong. You cannot get to the end quickly. You can get to the end of EXPing quickly. But the game does not consist of EXP, it never did, and it shouldn't be. EXP is the first step of the journey, and it's one of many.

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As I said before, you can't really use FFXI as an accurate model for implementing the fast-track to endgame. By the time it became a realization, the game already had loads of content and a Lv75 cap to suffice its existence. In my opinion, raising the level cap and implementing Abyssea-type EXP gains equals no level grind as a timesink, but a new type of grind
known as spammable luck-based content. You're still fighting the same mob over and over and over again, except in this case, the "endgame", this is what you have to look forward to and not the path you must endure to get to your ends. For some reason people contend that it's something new and preferable.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Question to you, have you ever even done anything that wasn't EXP?

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Not much.
Because i enjoyed the lv progress and now where its gone...well...
I'm not a fan of endgame content in generel to be serious.
I like beautiful areas, atmosphere, teamplay, to lv different jobs, do some quests and missions.
I could still do this solo but thats kind of boring without other people.

Maybe it wasnt perfect, maybe not every job was happy like bst and smn or blm because
of the usual colibri in mid to endlv but at last u could still log in and look for group and if u would get lucky u would join a party and kill some vt-it mobs in a low man group and while u look u could do something else.
With a tank, and a healer, maybe a supporter and some dd's.
You would hang around a bit and get a few lvs.
Next day, maybe u go valkurm with a lower job and do the same.
U get the idea, different jobs, no ep kills, teamplay not abyssea la theine the whole way.

Just because some people dont teamplay doesnt mean there wasnt any btw and little exploation better than none SE could have improved this by changing areas or mobs so more are intresting but of course they didnt.

It was a simple changing entertaining party of the game i enjoyed most.
The game took a bad direction in my opinion but i guess some enjoy the actual meta for whatever reason.
There are plenty of better games with more features and the same as ffxi since it headed this direction of speed lvling.

You are not alone Ceinwyn. My wife and many of my old LS members feel the same way and I see posts regarding this grow in forums daily.

My take on the issue: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...aiting!/page11

I've literally never done a low level GoV. How much xp can you reasonably expect? I usually did Qufim 18-28 averaging 26k/hr with a roaming group.

Good gusgen mines page 1 is up to 25-30k exp if you bring in ghouls whenever you are out of skeleton soldiers. Limit is around level 25. Exp varies greatly based on how many characters in the alliance have native h2h skill :).

Good crawlers nest page 1 is 60-70k if your group is efficient and not stupid. Lasts as long as you have at least one party member below 57 for each party. Highest efficiency is naturally when you have several characters capped to the early 50s instead of early 40s. It is especially nice if you have a soboro sam capped higher than 50. Characters below 40 have limited value as damage dealers, due to lack of gear availability(AH/NPC/CP).

Good Bostanieux Oubliette is about the same as CN if you do bat trios and big bats, but let you skill up your combat skills a lot more, as well as giving you more money and tabs. Additionally, you're no longer dependent on as low a level sync to keep the party going, characters below lv60 have limited value as damage dealers, especially if they suffer from lack of gear availability. Cleaving bloodsuckers in the lower levels of Bostanieux can get you over 100k/h with a half-full alliance where some of them are lv99. Page 1 (bats) ends at level 71, page idkwhat (bloodsuckers) grants exp all the way to lv99.

I haven't done kuftal tunnel a lot, but more than 50k/h shouldn't be hard to get there, if you pay attention and alternate crabs/lizards accurately and at high efficiency. It is probably possible to get 60-70k there too. These also don't have a upper level limit, so anyone at any high level can help out to increase the exp.

Let's also think about it this way.

Exp alone is not by which FFXI can form a "grind" situation in which people form a party and go out and slap the tar out of the local monster population.

The classic example is relic weapons/currency or mythics, but it's applicable to any new content as well. Put in some new skills and spells that can only be acquired through "bring us X item + Gil". Let's call it Shiny.

Have Shiny most effectively acquired via parties and work like Signet/crystals- if the mob gives exp and you have the expansion buff, it can give Shiny, and the less pleasant it is to kill (relative to your party/you), the better it's odds of Shiny and perhaps even more of it. Ganking the equivalent of colibri? Low odds of Shiny. Chaining down monsters that require a party to be on the ball to deal with the constant stream of nasty debuffs and whatnot? Good odds of Shiny. Beating the heads in of some NM? Definitely Shiny and the usual NM item goodies as well. Heck, we can even make different kinds of Shiny that you'll need some of each for the REALLY good stuff.

Sound familiar? Of course it does, stuff like that is how FFXI's kept people playing in expansions even with capped jobs.

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

It was fun, your 1st job or 2, then it quickly got old.

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I honestly enjoyed it every time, on every job I ever leveled up through those areas. I'd still enjoy it to this day.

Was never "about the xp", and I was never in a hurry to level up faster. I just enjoyed the activity itself.

To each their own, I guess?

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

The game is built around level 99s, before then you are stuck in all old content no one does anymore, why leave players in areas that are old and abandoned rather than allowing them a faster track to the place where everyone else is actually doing things.

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Maybe so they can actually get to experience the content you already did in a manner similar to how you did? You're attempting to qualify the value of content from the perspective of someone who's already been through it, as it's intended to be completed (e.g. at the intended level, in a group, etc), and is now several years, and many levels beyond it.

Easily soloing through most/all of CoP is not the same experience as actually having to fight through it with a party at or near the intended level. Or Zilart, or Aht Urghan or WoTG for that matter.

If you read around forums enough, you'll find there's a lot of people (on different servers, etc), who would actually like to go through the content more the way everyone else did "back in the day". The problem is, now that all the vets have "been there and done that", they have a completely dismissive view about it all, and the advice they're giving is very much like yours. They're being told "Everything is about end-game now", and "Just blast through to level 99 and get all your end-game gear. Then you can go back and solo the old content if you want".

Newer players are listening because they don't know any better and would likely figure "well, they know the game better than I do..."

"Yeah, there's 8+ years of content, including 5 epic storylines with great characters, cool encounters, awesome cut-scenes and some pretty tough battles... but that's all old and obsolete. So, just power level past it, get to 99 and then go through it on Mickey Mouse Mode". What a way to gyp new players the experience of going through some great content. At the very least, the "advice" of soloing it at 99 is diminishing the experience significantly.

Just because "most people are at end-game now", doesn't mean newer players have to be there "right now" as well - especially at the expense of skipping past or trivializing lots of great content before that. The game may be "all about end game" to you/vets. That doesn't mean it should be to newer players. I'd argue that end game should be the last thing a newer player is focused on in FFXI.

I said this in another post/thread, but I'll say it again here: It amazes me how easily and willingly vet players pass their cynicism about this game on to new players who are eager and excited to play; how readily they'll tell people to just skip past all the content they got to experience over the past decade.

Here's a thought... how about encouraging people to experience it. How about saying "You know, there's some amazing content in this game before level cap. Some great stories and expansion content. CoP in particular has been considered one of the best individual FF stories ever by some. You should really try to experience that "at level" as much as possible. The end-game will be there when ever you get to it, and likely with a lot more than what's there now."

Here's an even crazier idea - that I know is going to make some foam at the mouth - how about offering to group up with people, level-synch down and help them get through the content? You have nothing at stake. You're completely capped on your jobs and, presumably, your skills. So what's the harm? Believe me, I know as I'm typing it that people in this game going back to help newer players with content you've already completed would be a sure sign of the apocalypse. From what I've seen, the mantra of "What? Nothing in it for me personally? Pfft... forget it. Not interested" is alive and well in FFXI.

SE provides this amazing game that can be just as awesome to new players as it was to vets when they were on their way up... but they're being told to just race past it.

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Originally Posted by ScreamingInDigital

I said this in another post/thread, but I'll say it again here: It amazes me how easily and willingly vet players pass their cynicism about this game on to new players who are eager and excited to play; how readily they'll tell people to just skip past all the content they got to experience over the past decade.

Amazing.

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The only amazing thing about it is how much you missed the point. No one wants to keep them from experiencing CoP the old way. The problem is, it's nearly impossible now with a cap. Uncapping it was the only reasonable thing to do to get new players through it at all.

Second, EXP is an entirely different animal from missions, don't group them together. It's not that we don't want new people to experience old EXP, it's that we think it's better for them if they don't. I disliked it so much, if I could purge the memories of me wasting weekend after weekend doing boring crap just so I could be high enough to do events with my linkshell, I'd gladly do it.

With a cap it would be near impossible, you could never experience the old things they way the once were with caps or not, for a simple reason. No incentive to have players who have beaten it, go through it once again. There comes a time when people would be blocked by that limitation and would be unable to do it, and without removing the cap, there was little to no way to change that fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Demon6324236

With a cap it would be near impossible, you could never experience the old things they way the once were with caps or not, for a simple reason. No incentive to have players who have beaten it, go through it once again. There comes a time when people would be blocked by that limitation and would be unable to do it, and without removing the cap, there was little to no way to change that fact.

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As much an incentive to help newbies as there ever was for players who had already completed it. Of course, the easy answer is "Get 99 and go solo it."

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Originally Posted by Eyeballed

As much an incentive to help newbies as there ever was

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That is to say, next to none at all.

The only incentive there was to helping newbies with COP before was if you were either good friends with them, or needed them to have sea access for endgame activities. I remember capped CoP well enough to say that I would never want to do some of those events again for anyone less than a good friend I've had for years.

Without the two of those, you'd be looking for help for a lot of days before you managed to get 5 people who could help you. Now, explain to me how exactly new players would get CoP done within a reasonable timeframe (1 month?) without having 5 good friends who ask nothing in return (unlikely when you are new to the game) or an endgame LS that needs you in sea.

It was hard enough to organize CoP events when you knew about 5 other person who actually needed to clear it. How easy do you think it would be to organize a CoP event now, when you know ~0 others who need it? Now add the fact that because people have a lot of jobs leveled, they are also pretty low on inventory. Almost no one carry around level cap gear anymore, and auto-scaled gear is in some cases significantly worse.

People never wanted to help others with CoP particularly much. I'm not talking about help, I'm talking about finding like minded people to do it with in the form of a static. That is nearly impossible now. So the only thing remaining is to ask for help, and that is, now as then, difficult, unless you happen to have a particularly helpful and active friend. Now probably even more difficult, because the overall population has dwindled, and the remaining few have moved on themselves, so backtracking is not nearly as rewarding.