[dev1135] New Thief 2 hour ability

sneak-trick stance: give sneak attack and trick attack for 30sec.

robber:30sec duration, add steal effect on 1 melee hit/round,if nothing is stolen ,no buff absorbed force TH+ proc!

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Originally Posted by hiko

force TH+ proc!

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Oh jeez, please don't let this be our new 2 hour. THF instantly goes back to bandwagon TH7 + max haste/acc and 2 hour to give highest TH in 30 secs then GTFO TYVM >.>

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

Oh jeez, please don't let this be our new 2 hour. THF instantly goes back to bandwagon TH7 + max haste/acc and 2 hour to give highest TH in 30 secs then GTFO TYVM >.>

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This, THF doesn't need anymore placebo hunter, it needs a DD ability.

I think the Development Bros have hit the bottom of the well for normal bad ideas with the new Red Mage SP, and thus they'll have to go meta for the incoming Thief SP. Thus, I think the new ability will be:

Roguish Shame: Another button to accidentally hit that will display how many years and days and hours you have spent playing FFXI. Unlike the normal function, this one somehow accounts for time spent AFK. Those are less hours spent AFK than you thought, huh?

They just posted a new possibility for THF 2 hour. I like this one a lot better actually. I know most will say "oh great... a hour recast aura steal" but this one allows you to steal most anything including special abilities. This makes me think fighting a mob like MNK or even AV would be really exciting.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

They just posted a new possibility for THF 2 hour. I like this one a lot better actually. I know most will say "oh great... a hour recast aura steal" but this one allows you to steal most anything including special abilities. This makes me think fighting a mob like MNK or even AV would be really exciting.

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It could be good. It could be as garbage as aurasteal is.

What I mean is, mostly, Aurasteal is useful....but only reliable as as utility dispel. Actually stealing and absorbing desireable enhancements is mostly a losing proposition.

Aurasteal just has too much flawed functionality... which is sad, becuase the IDEA of aurasteal is very good. But alas,you cannot specify which enhancement you steal...and it is attached to a 5 minute timer. So if you are after that haste and you get blaze spikes. You're out of luck..

Item steal takes prioroty...so if you are after those pesky paralyzing ice spikes and you get a bone chip instead....you are out of luck.

You cannot even attempt aurasteal with a full inventory (which is becoming an increasingly large problem).

This is not even to mention that Aurasteal shares a timer with lolSteal and lolDespoil. Which is not so much an issue because those two abilities are garbage and not worth using, but it is in issue in that steal interferes with Aurasteal.

But even Aurasteal, in all its gloriously flawed functionality and shame, could still be potentially better than this SP2 ability....simply because now, with Assassin's Bonnet +2, you can steal 2 buffs.

So if SP2 steals ONE buff at random (like aurasteal) with only ONE random chance to steal an SP ability...forget it. It's useless.

If it does steal only one enhancement effect in the abscence of an SP ability....then it is WORSE than aurasteal AND on a 1 hour timer.

Useless.

No. One enhancement effect is not strong enough. And stealing SP abilities must be priortised over all else when present.

That would be worth having. If you don't do someting like this....back to the drawing board.

Aura Steal, the 1 JA/JT that THF has that I didn't account for in my earlier post of thoughts for SP2 being a HQ version of something we already have.

The post by camate says:

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Originally Posted by Camate

Steals a beneficial effect from the target. (Effect duration: instant)

• For the effects that can be stolen, in addition to the same ones that are possible with Aura Steal, special abilities can also be stolen. (New special abilities are not included in this.)
• In the event that there is no beneficial effect on the target, it will result in a miss.
  *In this case the ability will be used and the recast timer will activate.

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The bolded part implies to me that it's only dispellable buffs, and original 2 hour JAs. Which is a shame, as there are some mobs out there that get an un-dispellable Stoneskin or spikes effect, which could be very useful to be able to absorb. Particularly on mobs that don't have a 2 hour to dispel.

Now, let's see what SP are worth stealing...

Mighty Strikes - Very nice, particularly for the likes of exenterator.
Hundred fists - Very Nice.
Perfect Dodge - Time saver more than anything.
Chainspell - Useful more for just not having spells spammed on you, rather than being useful to have.
Invincible - Nice as a time saver or vs particularly nasty phys TP moves.
Blood Weapon - This could prove to be one of the best I think. Particularly Vs something dealing a lot of damage to you. Roll on THF/DRK^^
Meikyo Shisui - This is an odd one. Very useful if you're fast. If you're not fast will you only get 200%TP or 100% TP if it used a TP move or 2? Or will you always get 300% TP but only however many charges are left? Or do you just get the charges and no TP, since the TP is on activation? If stealing the SP is the same as if you just activated it, then this is very nice to steal :)

Benediction - N/A
Overdrive - N/A
Familiar - N/A
Eagle Eye Shot - N/A
Mijin Gakure - N/A
Wild Card - N/A
Astral Flow - N/A (at least, I think mob's AF is an instant ability - even if you can steal it, it's useless)
Call Wyvern/Spirit Surge - N/A (I think all DRG mobs use CW as 2H?)
Trance - N/A (unless /DNC and then slightly useful)
Tabula Rasa - N/A (or very limited use if /SCH, unless lolnewEmbrava/Kaustra are usable lol)
Soul Voice - N/A (unless /BRD, and then very limited use. And why are you /BRD?)
Azure Lore - N/A (unless /BLU and again limited use)
Manafont - N/A (unless /mage then slightly useful)

I am concerned with the limitation of stealing SP abilities to SP1? Looking at the list, the majority of SP1 abilites cannot be stolen, as they are instant...and only a handful would be actually useful to the THF to "steal"

I'm sure it'll find some niche where its useful...I don't share the enthusiasm that others have shown though. This ability seams pretty weak...and again unneccessarily limited to me.

It may present a reason to bring more than one THF to a fight though...for certain monsters/events that use multiple devistating 2 hours?

Nothing will ever present a reason to bring more than one THF, nor do I see why it should. In a group situation THF is a utility job, and there's hardly ever a need for two of the same utilities. We basically just got a situational Mighty Strikes, Hundred Fists, Meikyo Shusui, Blood Weapon, Chainspell, Invincible and Perfect Doge, all of which can be very useful when soloing. Not to mention it removes annoying effects from Monsters, which can be useful for the entire alliance during several events, Legion most notably comes to mind, but also some certain older content, like sky gods or sea jailers (including AV). So what if it can't steal every SP ability, it's still very useful with what it does.

This SP ability is pretty great overall, and I wouldn't want them to try and redo it again, because they'd only do a lot worse.

Situationally useful? Yes. Great overall? I disagree.

Unfortunately, as our 'DD type SP', it's only great if you're fighting something with a great buff/SP to steal, eg a war, mnk or drk (possibly sam) mob that can use 2 hour.
Aside from DDing, it's great to mitigate damage either by stealling chainspell/Manafont form a mob like AV, or by stealing Perfect Dodge/Invincible to reduce your own damage taken or just speed up a fight to allow you to kill it faster.

As for using multiple THF in legion....

A WAR with Mighty Strikes (extendable through relic+2 aug) and perma-double attack and Ragnalution or Ukko's spam will still do way more damage than a THF that stole 25 secs of Mighty Strikes trying to spam Exenterator/Rudra's. Oh and lolperfect dodge.
No, a THF would be there for the same reason as a SMN would be. To mitigate damage taken by the DDs. And you already have SMN there for that. And remember that when this ability comes out, SMN also gets the ability to back-to-back spam BPs straight after they PD'd the DD party.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

As for using multiple THF in legion....

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I'm not sure if that was a reply to me, but my post was a reply to FrankReynolds, where he said Aura Steal should have been able to do that. My point was that if it did, even one THF in Legion would be able to counter all Gallus' Mighty Strikes.

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

No, a THF would be there for the same reason as a SMN would be. To mitigate damage taken by the DDs. And you already have SMN there for that. And remember that when this ability comes out, SMN also gets the ability to back-to-back spam BPs straight after they PD'd the DD party.

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A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

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Pretty much this. SE has reaffirmed multiple times that they feel having the highest available level of TH in the game gives THF all the utility they need. The fact that they're giving THF a useful SP ability beyond that (negating other SP abilities, at that) is awesome.

In events like Legion, THFs do shit damage even if they're in a main party getting buffs due to level correction and the sacrifices they have to make to increase accuracy. Thus, you might as well bring another DD and leave the THF in the mage party. If said THF can dispel Mighty Strikes for us once a run against Gallu, that'll be great. Gallu does normal melee hits for over 2000 damage in MS. Getting rid of it is a top priority and we bring THF anyway, so it's win/win.

This is my issue though. It's win/win because for events like legion where THF would be there for TH, it's a "well, I might as well steal Mighty Strikes since I'm here chilling in the mage party anyway."

I would like to see THF adjusted to NOT be that...but I've long given up that this pipe dream will be a reality.

But this ability.... it's not so desireable that you would bring a THF specifically for it. Especially considering the things its NOT good for. Like protecting against instant 2hours, SP2 2 hours, devestaing tp moves etc. Things that Perfect defense, Chain spell Stun, etc. deal with MUCH better.

For events where you need to deal with 2 hours and moves like that, you're going to bring jobs to deal with those 2 hours. This "special ability" is not so special that it can do that even remotely close to as well as any other job.

A "hey you're here for TH so you might as well use this SP2 ability" is not the kind of thing that interests me.

It sounds like somewhat of a success though, because I hear lots of positive feedback. Perhaps I'm the only one that feels this way?

In light of hearing the Development Bros' strongly implied "vision" for Thief over and over, people are probably just happy to have something decent. Particularly, something that doesn't kill the Thief to apply Treasure Hunter 20 because they think Treasure Hunter 20 is statistically valid.

It's like if a tribe who believed deformed babies belong to the hippopotamus were in charge of a local hospital's NICU, basically. You're expecting, "Let's perform surgery to fix this cleft palette!" Everybody else is just relieved to hear, "Let's not feed this one to the hippo that lives on the ground floor," and doesn't want the Development Hippo Feeder Bros to re-think that decision again.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

It's like if a tribe who believed deformed babies belong to the hippopotamus were in charge of a local hospital's NICU, basically. You're expecting, "Let's perform surgery to fix this cleft palette!" Everybody else is just relieved to hear, "Let's not feed this one to the hippo that lives on the ground floor," and doesn't want the Development Hippo Feeder Bros to re-think that decision again.

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/Sigh... This is what it has come to. People are excited that the devs added a new ability that did not make the job worse. Full blown Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in. I expect my next Square Enix bill to be written in letters clipped from tabloid magazines and to include the severed finger of a dear childhood friend.

While I agree with the monkey on almost everything, this time I only liked their post for the humor, not for the content. That's not at all how I feel about it, if you are, I'm sorry that it didn't pan out any better for you, but I'm very happy about this. Like I said, I wouldn't trade it for 30s worth of Triple Attack, and a while ago I would have killed for that.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

/Sigh... This is what it has come to. People are excited that the devs added a new ability that did not make the job worse. Full blown Stockholm Syndrome has kicked in. I expect my next Square Enix bill to be written in letters clipped from tabloid magazines and to include the severed finger of a dear childhood friend.

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Stockholm syndrome would imply we're overjoyed at this when we're just worried that things can only get worse.

I do think the new SP is a very useful ability, which maybe my post didn't convey through the bitterness about the Development Bros and Treasure Hunter. It's probably better than a damage ability, given the issues that one-handed melee have with damaging difficult things on a core level.

I'm just surprised that more people aren't asking for this SP to be improved somehow while keeping the same concept; stuff such as dispelling all remaining buffs after stealing the highest priority buff. Since this isn't a buff beyond the possible benefit of something stolen, but more of a one-shot buff-removal on the enemy, it seems like there's a lot of room for improvement without making the ability too strong.

That's what I want but im afraid SE might think our current SP2 they're making is the best out of all SP2 and could try that crap they did with tickets where they present us with worse options when they retool things.

So basically, we go from getting TA2 to Aura Steal 2? Really, how is this good? The only mobs with 2 hours I know of are either in events where there's tons of mobs using 2 hours or with mobs who use multiple two hours per fight. Meaning, that like Aura Steal, this thing would be kinda nice every now and then, but in the long run it's not going to help at all. This ability...is pretty much as useless as the rest of the Steal abilities.

I mean hell, only 6 of the two hour abilities are even worth stealing, making this trick that much more useless.

THF can't have nice things because it has the all powerful TH trait, so that makes it OK. Would have much preferred a DD orientated SP to a 1 time "run in and steal that mobs 2hr then GTF back in your corner" deal.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

I'm just surprised that more people aren't asking for this SP to be improved somehow while keeping the same concept;

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It was suggested that they could maybe add a bit of dmg to the ability along with the stealing of an effect to make it a bit more useful. To which SE replied to by saying that by adding any kind of DMG to this ability would need to be "balanced" by reducing the steal rate to no longer be 100%.

30 seconds of amnesia would be a nice addition to stealing a mobs 2hr I think, just to make sure it doesnt try and one shot everyone in vanadiel right after you stole its 2hr.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

I'm not sure if that was a reply to me, but my post was a reply to FrankReynolds, where he said Aura Steal should have been able to do that. My point was that if it did, even one THF in Legion would be able to counter all Gallus' Mighty Strikes.

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No, it was in response to this:

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Originally Posted by Nebo

It may present a reason to bring more than one THF to a fight though...for certain monsters/events that use multiple devistating 2 hours?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

A THF would be there for the same reason it is there now, TH. But in addition to that, it could help with Mighty Strikes. Sure, you could use a SMN for that, but that would mean removing another useful job, as many groups currently do not have a SMN with them (including us) but do take a THF.

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Yeah sorry I was referring to any additional THF that were brought along. Obviously didn't make that clear. As for not taking a SMN, do you use SCHs for embrava, if you're not using PD? If not the updates will just make the whole event easier for your group, as mobs will have 10 less HP (and a thf to remove MS).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Thief
A Japanese player who was testing out thief’s new special ability reported that they were unable to steal Meikyo Shisui and was curious if this was a bug or not.

Due to the fact that the Meikyo Shisui used by enemies is processed in a special way, it is not possible to steal this special ability. The reason for this is that when a monster uses Meikyo Shisui there is no enhancement status, it is only processed as the monster can do X amount of weapon skills after it is executed. Astral Flow also falls into the same category as this, and neither of these abilities can be stolen off of monsters.

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So Meikyo Shisui has been clarified to be epic fail. Now down to only 3 DD buffs, 2 defense buffs, and a few dispel only buffs (ie chainspell/manafont that are nice to get rid of, but don't help the thf).

Manafont is not useful to steal in any way. Mobs will never run out of MP in a relevant situation.

stealing manafont from AV prevents it casting Meteor. Not sure if there are any other mobs similar, possibly Shantotto or something?

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

stealing manafont from AV prevents it casting Meteor. Not sure if there are any other mobs similar, possibly Shantotto or something?

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I didn't know that, nevermind me then.

My idea for the ability:

It should instant-kill any non-NM mobs (similar to Summoner's Odin).

Against NMs, it should do roughly double the damage of a weaponskill (rudras/mercy) and stack with sneak/trick attack and prepare the mob for a skillchain. Sneak/Trick timers would be reset upon use of the 2 hour so that a follow-up bully->SATA could be used to complete the chain.

Alternatively, instead of the skillchain, it should add a potent debuff like amnesia/paralyze/silence that cannot be resisted.

edit: Just finished reading the thread and I see they are changing it to Aura Steal+1...oh well ; ;

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Originally Posted by Kirana

My idea for the ability:

It should instant-kill any non-NM mobs (similar to Summoner's Odin).

Against NMs, it should do roughly double the damage of a weaponskill (rudras/mercy) and stack with sneak/trick attack and prepare the mob for a skillchain. Sneak/Trick timers would be reset upon use of the 2 hour so that a follow-up bully->SATA could be used to complete the chain.

Alternatively, instead of the skillchain, it should add a potent debuff like amnesia/paralyze/silence that cannot be resisted.

edit: Just finished reading the thread and I see they are changing it to Aura Steal+1...oh well ; ;

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That would have been too over powered for THF, remember SE don't like THF doing dmg.

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

That would have been too over powered for THF, remember SE don't like THF doing dmg.

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That would have been completely shitty. I was as excited as anyone about THF doing more damage, but in the form of a SP ability it will be entirely useless. For solo efforts it's hardly a benefit, unless you're fighting a particularly hard NM (is there one that THF can solo/lowman?), because it will not speed up your Dynamis or Salvage farming or whatever else it is you do any. And it will be completely useless in party/alliance situations, because you would still barely register on the parse ranking (maybe slightly above the bored WHM who threw a Holy in).

The current ability on the other hand can save your life in certain situations, and save your entire alliance's life in others.

Current 2-hour: High alliance utility, moderate lowman utility
DD 2-hour on THF: Low alliance utility, moderate lowman utility

I think THF got the right 2-hour?

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Originally Posted by Arcon

That would have been completely shitty. I was as excited as anyone about THF doing more damage, but in the form of a SP ability it will be entirely useless. For solo efforts it's hardly a benefit, unless you're fighting a particularly hard NM (is there one that THF can solo/lowman?), because it will not speed up your Dynamis or Salvage farming or whatever else it is you do any. And it will be completely useless in party/alliance situations, because you would still barely register on the parse ranking (maybe slightly above the bored WHM who threw a Holy in).

The current ability on the other hand can save your life in certain situations, and save your entire alliance's life in others.

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Yea, I never said it would have been good lol I just said that SE looks down on any suggestion of beefing THF`s DD up even slightly, because we have TH.

Theres only 1 reason THF`s DD is shit, and we all know what that is.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Current 2-hour: High alliance utility, moderate lowman utility
DD 2-hour on THF: Low alliance utility, moderate lowman utility

I think THF got the right 2-hour?

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I can see your point, but how would you feel about inflicting a short duration Amnesia effect on mobs in addition or in place of stealing a 2hr? Seeing as this SP is useless on most of them.

That would certainly make the ability stronger are you're free to crusade for it if you want, but realistically SE doesn't actually respond to player suggestions and is going to implement the ability as-is regardless what you say. I'm over the "lets try to improve it!" phase and on to the "Well, at least it isn't Perfect Parry!"

Im well aware SE don't listen to the players, just looking at RDM tells you that lol

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Originally Posted by Calatilla

I can see your point, but how would you feel about inflicting a short duration Amnesia effect on mobs in addition or in place of stealing a 2hr? Seeing as this SP is useless on most of them.

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This I think would be more appropriate to add to RDM's 2 hour. JA that you use on the mob, inflicting amnesia for 30 secs, and during that 30 secs the next enfeeb used will be 100% guaranteed to land at full potency.

Even considering that it can be useful, I don't think it is too much to ask for it to be a little better.

I really really like the idea of it inflicting Amnesia for a short time. 15-20s, if they want they can extend it with ... Steal+ gear...

The simple reason is that THF relies on positioning as it is and some things reset hate or otherwise make it difficult for the THF to use this ability exactly when you'd want it. Having a Thief 'steal your knowledge' for a bit seems ok given that we are already stealing magical auras, etc.

We've also been wanting a way to at least slow down WS spam on mobs for a bit, right? If Amnesia properly prevents monsters from using TP attacks (or even ones that just aren't triggered by their HP level reaching a certain point) then technically it would also stop Meikyo Shisui)

Just make us able to also create a tiny window where we know the mob won't butcher us with ANY of its serious abilities, I hope that's not too much to ask for a Special ability, since against certain enemies, even solo, Perfect Dodge couldn't save you but this could.

Therefore I fully support any and all calls to have this also inflict short-duration Amnesia, and I hope that becomes something more people ask for.

New THF SP2 is very very good when you're fighting Paramount Gallu and... what else in the current game? Outside of that one situation, will it be discernible from Aura Steal? I think i'm not the only one that suspects it's utility will be similar to Aura Steal (being able to steal 4-5 nice buffs in the entire game: Fluorescence, MotherGlobe-ShockSpikes, Berserk, Animating Wail).
Thief has already plenty of useless steal abilities: Steal, Mug, Despoil.
I see no reason in adding another Aura Steal, just add some armor piece that enables stealing of enemy SP with old Aura Steal. Was it so hard to come up with: "Steals enemy's SP ability. If no SP ability available, inflicts Amnesia."?

And yes, I realise it's not as bad as RDM, it still needs improvements tho. I see no one complaining about WAR SAM PLD etc because they're universally useful, no matter what enemy you're fighting.

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Originally Posted by Zirael

New THF SP2 is very very good when you're fighting Paramount Gallu and... what else in the current game? Outside of that one situation, will it be discernible from Aura Steal? I think i'm not the only one that suspects it's utility will be similar to Aura Steal (being able to steal 4-5 nice buffs in the entire game: Fluorescence, MotherGlobe-ShockSpikes, Berserk, Animating Wail).
Thief has already plenty of useless steal abilities: Steal, Mug, Despoil.
I see no reason in adding another Aura Steal, just add some armor piece that enables stealing of enemy SP with old Aura Steal. Was it so hard to come up with: "Steals enemy's SP ability. If no SP ability available, inflicts Amnesia."?

And yes, I realise it's not as bad as RDM, it still needs improvements tho. I see no one complaining about WAR SAM PLD etc because they're universally useful, no matter what enemy you're fighting.

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Pretty much. If this sort of ability was given to any other job, people would be throwing a fit about right now about how bad it is.

i dont know, blu could do some real evil with that 2hour, but that's because for blu stealing mage and melee 2hours would both be incredibly useful, but back on subject for thf would this be able to steal those buffs that are general unsteable/dispellable i know there is a better examples that the pots in seas reactor cool but to late for me to think of one