[dev1058] SMN Two-hour abilities

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The real trick of course, is once you ahve your pop set, kill mobs near the NM pop until you find a ISL, then pop fast, new 2 hour, and when you get low on MP or your 2 hour runs out, /item "Forbidden Key" <st> and start again XD

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New macro ahoy!

Sorry for the necro bump, but Camate edited his post to this in the 2hr thread:

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Greetings!

The development team has been hard at work revamping the new special abilities and I would like to give an update on their progress.

The below changes to current and new special abilities will be implemented with this week’s Test Server update.
Recast timer will be reduced from 2 hours to 1 hour (both current and new special abilities)
Recast timers will be separated

In addition to the above, the new special abilities for the below jobs will see their effects adjusted:

Warrior / white mage / black mage / samurai / summoner / blue mage

Also, as we will be making large scale changes to the below jobs' new special abilities, they will be temporarily removed from the Test Server. Once the adjustments and debugging has been completed for the new effects we will re-implement them to the Test Server.

Red mage / thief /paladin / beastmaster / bard / ranger / ninja / dragoon / corsair

*As these adjustments are currently in development, the number of them that we implement may change depending on if further adjustment is necessary or if bugs are discovered.

We are in the process of organizing the specific adjustment information for all jobs and plan on sharing it with you all tomorrow.

We would like to continue to make adjustments to this content based on feedback for the above changes, so please be sure to try everything out on the Test Server once they are implemented,

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Boooo, I hope they didn't change it TOO much. :( I thought it was epic as is.

You now get full MP upon using the new 2 hour^^

Really?! It lasts the same amount of time? o.o Wow...that's epic... I mean... I was thinking would have to sub RDM to convert if you wanted to do like: Alex for SMN PT/yourself>>> Convert>>> New 2hr. That's epic. o.o

Doi, I just refreshed the page. Just saw dev post. :P

I think we are prematurely rejoicing lol, I would proceed with cautions and stop any positive posting on the new 2 hours, please do not share any great finding on official forums let alone we suffer the same fate that befallen to Perfect Defense and Embrava.

I don't see it becoming brokenly good, certainly for any current content. It's amazing in Legion, and a party of SMN could take down the adamantoise mob in 30 secs with 6 shivas. But that's it. You then have another half dozen mobs to kill without your SP Ab, and mobs like the behemoth will rape SMNs trying to do BPs, unless of course we can actually PD ourselves then smash out a ton of BPs with new SP.

Even if you can, you'll only kill 3 mobs with a full alliance of SMN. It's a clear, but it's not brilliant.

I think once players found a good strategy that they can exploit to do contents in the shortest amount possible, and with the most safest strategy, we should keep it to ourselves. Embrava was amazing, it was incredibly useful on many things and not just endgame stuffs. But for a long time SE did not even care about it, for a long time there were not that many events where you absolutely need and must have to use Embrava and Perfect Defense, hence they leave it alone. So it is our duty to keep any great news about any jobs combination to ourselves :)

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Embrava was amazing, it was incredibly useful on many things and not just endgame stuffs.

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Useful doesn't mean good. Embrava was horrible from a balance perspective, but it turned into a necessary evil after SE started to design events with artificial difficulty that required artificial boosts to compensate, like Embrava or Perfect Defense. This nerf would have been entirely unremarkable if they adjusted the content accordingly, but they pissed on the rug again in that respect.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Useful doesn't mean good. Embrava was horrible from a balance perspective, but it turned into a necessary evil after SE started to design events with artificial difficulty that required artificial boosts to compensate, like Embrava or Perfect Defense. This nerf would have been entirely unremarkable if they adjusted the content accordingly, but they pissed on the rug again in that respect.

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It was only horrible after they realize how USEFUL it is for a lot of things. When it was first introduced, not many players understand what it does and how good it can be. A lot of people did not even realize it is even existed, months after its introduction. The same can be said to Perfect Defense, it's been out for awhile and yet no one really raving mad about this until this year. Whenever jobs or abilities become actually useful, and working as intended for players, SE always make sure that it is no longer useful. Case points to Mnk and War adjustment. Another one is RDM. Let's not forget DRG Tp spams, Ranger, Blm's Manaburn, etc...

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

It was only horrible after they realize how USEFUL it is for a lot of things.

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Correction: it was only horrible after the players realized how useful it is. When the players started abusing them, SE found that players cleared content easier than anticipated, which in turn gave them a reason to design harder events, which then relied on such strategies.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Whenever jobs or abilities become actually useful, and working as intended for players, SE always make sure that it is no longer useful.

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How do you know what is "working as intended"? So you're saying there's no useful jobs or abilities out right now?

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Case points to Mnk and War adjustment.

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So your saying Victory Smite and Ukko's Fury are no longer useful? The nerfs didn't hit them hard at all.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Let's not forget DRG Tp spams, Ranger, Blm's Manaburn, etc...

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How exactly did they nerf BLM? You seem to just list every nerf they've ever done, regardless of whether it was deserved or not. Or do you think all of those were undeserved? Do you think it's a good thing that MNK get to spam WS after WS with no cooldown at all?

I feel like you take the anti-nerf approach too literal and in the process lose sight of what's important. Saying all nerfs are always bad is a generalization and very short-sighted. It's important to create some balance, and if that requires nerfs, they are supposed to happen. This one is an appropriate nerf and it would have been a good move by SE. Only they should have nerfed their content as well, but they aren't, which is a bad move by SE. Now we're worse off than before, but don't blame the nerf, blame the content, because that is the mistake right now, not the abilities.

With Embrava and PD being overpowered the content works in a way, but it's not a fun way (if you've ever been SCH or SMN to those, you'll understand). I'd rather they adjusted the content to not require those abilities in the first place. Only it would have been nice if they did that before the nerf (or simultaneously), not a few months later when they slowly realize that people aren't doing their events anymore.

Embrava last 12.5 mnts on the original version, after you apply it, there are TONS of other thing you can do as SCH if you are not on stun lock duty. PD is not gonna last forever. A good SCH is a busy one, tons of other good SCH spells that does stack with WHMs spells can be applied. There are several SMNs bloodpact that can still be applied after PD wore, which will help the party etc. I would assume as SCH and SMN on these events you are not just doing those said two things and then can go iddle AFK for the remainder of the events.... SE should know better when designing their contents not to rely on cheap tp moves and insta AOE death moves that forced us to adopt these new strategies. We both know there are so many things they can do to balance contents. Let's face it, the hardcore will want to plow the new content ASAP and figure out the best way to tackle it. But they are not the 90% of the majority of the players here. Let the 10% have their fun, if they want to play 24/7 and finish it, why shouldn't they. It's their money + time, most of the players are tackling the contents in their own pace anyway, which means take a whole lot longer for them to consume.

BLMs were not directly adjusted so to speak, but ToAU put them on their place. But a lot of jobs were adjusted because they were being too good for their own good. Dark + kraken club strategy is another. If you look at those so called jobs that actually work very well in the hand of capable players, then suddenly become the norm, SE will make sure this will not be the case for long. Whenever you find a good valid strategy to play the game efficiently, you should keep it to yourself.

I don't understand why whenever someone is posting a good strategy to tackle content in the most effective way in the shortest amount of time for maximum result is seen as bad thing. Part of the fun is figuring it out - which jobs can be the most effective, which abilities, which combination. How effective that said jobs in countering the NMs etc. You actually need to understand how certain jobs work to come up with this strategy in the first place. And yes, once it is found, what is hard suddenly becoming doable, what is impossible become possible. How is this being called overpowered or unbalance is beyond me. Sure this means the most effective solutions required jobs XYZ or gears XYZ with the XYZ job abilities in this order - which if you never done it before become limiting and seen as forcing certain jobs to only does XYZ thing on said events and nothing more.

This is A GAME, for fun, not WORK, people should not "work to farm" just to be able to enjoy the rest of the game content. They should be able to log, pick their fun activities (let's face it - all of those are grind, some are more fun than the other, and it's all subjective). Abyssea is grind, every single aspect of this add ons is massive grinds - yet it is the most fun grind of all, to some people, while to others, they hate it with passion. You can say the same about making a relic in dynamis or making a mythic, both are grinding to no end. People should not be limited to myriad of invisible walls. ESPECIALLY when you pay full price monthly to subscribe. When it becomes a free to play content, then they can put up all their walls and ask us to pay if we want more efficient ways to play the game. Trust me, this will force them to create popular sellable contents. Bad game design equal no sales.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Embrava last 12.5 mnts on the original version, after you apply it, there are TONS of other thing you can do as SCH if you are not on stun lock duty.

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Which you'll almost always be, and if you aren't, you'll probably be asked to hold Tabula Rasa at some NPC target, so you can reapply it later. And the tons of things you can do is basically curing. I don't know why SCH liked Embrava, I never felt it was a fix to the job. Sure, you got invited to events, but you didn't really get to play the events when half the time you're locked onto a target to preserve your two-hour. I didn't feel like it was doing SCH any favors. Just like BLMs were happy to suddenly get invited to VW again, but even though you're there, you don't get to play as a BLM, instead you just spam Bio to get hints and then spam certain low-level nukes, without regard for enmity or strategy or efficiency. While BLM is at the event, it's not really a BLM, it's a proc whore. I don't see how that is more fun, and same applies to SCH and to a lesser degree to SMN (at least SMN could do some SMNy things while there for PD, like use Shiva for damage on the turtle, or Shock Squall and Chaotic Strike to stun enemies, keep their MP up with Elemental Siphon, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

I don't understand why whenever someone is posting a good strategy to tackle content in the most effective way in the shortest amount of time for maximum result is seen as bad thing.

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The best strategy that was ever conceived has never been touched by SE, not even now, which is to Stun lock an enemy while incredibly buffed melee kill the shit out of it with no (or little) concern for safety, betting on the "kill before we get killed" mentality. This strategy, commonly called a "zerg" is a larger category containing every successful strategy that was employed to kill difficult mobs for years. It was used on many high end mobs back in the game, including most Dynamis bosses, Kirin, Vrtra, AV, and more recently, every VW battle ever, Odin at a certain point, Legion on almost every mob and Nyzul Uncharted for the entire process.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

Part of the fun is figuring it out - which jobs can be the most effective, which abilities, which combination. How effective that said jobs in countering the NMs etc. You actually need to understand how certain jobs work to come up with this strategy in the first place. And yes, once it is found, what is hard suddenly becoming doable, what is impossible become possible. How is this being called overpowered or unbalance is beyond me.

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Strategies are not called overpowered, only abilities. Embrava was very much overpowered, which is very clear to everyone who has ever read its description. Even some strategies relying on Embrava can still work, because the lack of relevant effects of Embrava can be compensated with additional means (like the Haste of Embrava can also be obtained through BRDs).

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

This is A GAME, for fun, not WORK, [..]

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But that's the thing. Are Embrava zergs really fun for you? Aside from the fact that the SCH does very little outside of it, the general strategy "kill before you get killed" is extremely repetitive to everyone involved, and it's even boring the first time you do it. "Buff to extremes > Spam WS" was never fun for me as a melee. There's no strategy involved (aside from positioning occasionally), no "playing" just button mashing. And Embrava endorsed that kind of strategy, any buff that is too potent does. Hence, why I'd rather SE adjust the content so that it's doable without Embrava, which means they can lower the artificial difficulty and instead add genuine difficulty, that is not overcome with buffs, but with strategy.

So how is a "stun lock" strategy is any better?? You are pretty much doing the same thing, have your stunner on alert duty, stun the crap of the mob while your super buffed melee jobs spam their WS. It's basically a zerg strategy no matter how you call it. Beating CoP missions the old ways are as close as you can say employing strategy and tactics, with some luck thrown in. Was it fun and memorable? very much so. Was it painful to actually find people who are competent enough? indeed, it will give most people nightmares. They could just employ this tactics and creating a bunch of 6-12 people bcnms that drops gears and points. With variety of mobs where you cannot just zerg every single one, but requires some kiting ability and splitting your party to handle mobs, making sure their hps in relative to each other or both mobs will enrage. As it is now, it's zerg everything, stun lock everything, throw pet jobs until the mob died.

There were a couple new BCNMs, Desire of Emptiness and others which is quite fun, but for some reasons never catch on popularity or and not very easy to find people to do. Assaults is actually a fun activities, but they were not designed that well, and you are extremely limited with how many you can do. A bunch of bcnms/assault type of activities that you can do several times daily that require a solid party of six to actually work together as a team would be very fun to do. Where you need to know your jobs to be able to remotely contribute, with a good kiter who understand how to survive (hello RDMs and carby kite summoner lol). Probably a good scholar who knows how to apply regen effectively and ration the cure instead of cureskin bombing :)

I don't think Arcon is arguing that the "stun lock strategy" is any better, only using it as an example of a strategy that is good and hasn't been nerfed by SE.

Zergs rarely (if ever) are fun. People only confuse the feeling of achievement when getting their drops with "fun", and zergs give them drops more often than other strategies.

Personally, I never minded level capped fights, as they force you to think of other ways than "kill it with superpowered abilities and gear". The only real problem I had with them was the issue of finding people who wanted to help you, because once you were done, there were very few incentives for others to keep doing them, at least when it comes to missions. BCNMs are different because some of them had drops that stayed relevant until endgame and beyond.

I don't mind zergs for some stuff though. Some times, it feels very satisfying to just go crazy and pump out insane damage as fast as you can, but that feeling of awesome is lost if every battle you fight is like that. It's like cocaine, the first time is always much better than all the other times.