[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

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At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

At this point you ARE just being obnoxious. Provoke works, sure, no disputing that, but if you never tank anything that hate resets you on NIN, and are completely sure that Sange damage (which is not even the same type of enmity) is 'worthless' in that situation, you're the one who needs to 'play Ninja better', unless you're basically saying 'you are never supposed to be tanking anything with hate reset as Ninja without help'.

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Do I really need to do the math to prove sange isn't worth using AGAIN?
Melee attacks are better than sange.
Melee attacks are better than throwing.
Melee attacks are better than the ninja elemental damage spells.
Any questions?

Also; If something has hate reset you're doing it wrong by either A. Having anyone other than a single WHM accumulating enmity with the NIN by curing the NIN, in which case 1 provoke is enough to bring the mob back to the NIN after the hate reset move or B. Not having a cotank who isn't horrible.
In which way are you doing it wrong in your example?

Mk, got it, you ARE saying that playing NIN better means 'having co-tank and having no one else pulling hate on hate reset mobs'. Sorry for that, I honestly didn't think that your definition of average or substandard play was that.

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

But yes, I am completely admitting to being bad in the sense that sometimes I tank things alone and sometimes the BLM with me takes hate after a Reset because they have more hate than the BRD (note I'm not supporting Sange with THAT admission because I don't use it then, though I probably should).

Sorry for that, carry on.

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Originally Posted by Randnum

Also it's in the other thread but I have already mentioned your own math doesn't show that, it shows specifically that at a certain point of multi attacks per round throwing is always outpaced by melee damage. It does not in fact show that Sange, particularly not in the moment where the enemy moves (are you really claiming there's a difference in overall shift between doing the Sange damage, and the time it takes for the enemy to get back into your melee range after the Provoke?) is not worth using.

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It's not 'extra attacks' that make ranged attacks worthless, it's haste, and the way ranged attacks work. There's an inherent 2.5 second delay when committing a ranged attack beyond the actual delay of the weapon involved, add using a Job Ability on top of that and theres 4.5 seconds+weapon delay. If you want to talk about real gear and what you actually have to work with, during this 6.5~ second period of time you require to use sange, then the 2-3 seconds after where you recast utsusemi, you would of done 3x+ more damage just meleeing, and this can be easily proven, and I've done it before on these forums in other threads.

If the mob runs away think of this, provoke is used instantly and brings it back, there's an inherent 2 second delay in there, but that is the time it takes the mob to run back to you anyway. It's going to be 2 seconds before you notice the mob has run away and hit your provoke macro, and its going to take 2 seconds for it to get back to you, at this point you begin meleeing. Or, you use sange, which takes 2 seconds, then attempt to throw shurikens, which takes 4.5 seconds, and the mob is now 4+ seconds away from you, then after you throw, it will take the mob 4+ second to get back to you. I've already shown the damage potential of gimp katanas in subpar conditions in 5 seconds is 1126 damage, and we're talking about 8+ second here, gimp katanas are gonna do 1700+ damage, and good katanas under normal circumstances will be 2500+ easy. Is your sange going to come anywhere close to that considering the trash shurikens you have to work with, and the lack of room for a good ranged attack set? And you haven't even recast utsusemi yet and lost meleeing time for that.

Was about to reply the same thing, but Wish12oz was faster than me. XD

Hate reset = voke. You can get a bad luck and a BLM who try to proc yellow will cast a big nuke in same time... But if you know how to play Ninja and if BLM know as well, you will voke, he will Enmity douse and thing will be ok. Even casting Hojo or Kyrayami: Ni is faster than Sange/throw. Neway, if you serious about Tank as Ninja, you surely have 1 or 2 pieces for Enmity boost for Voke macro. (Add Yonin on that and if you can't still get aggro back...)

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

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Couldn't agree anymore.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war. People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

Personally I think Sange should be like Quickdraw instead of having to use the /ja and then /ra.

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Well, you said in previous post that Sange can be use to get hate, if you need hate, that mean you tank. If you tanking with another support job than /WAR, you do it wrong. He assuming ppl have /WAR cause this is pretty much the only support job to use as NIN in a Party/Ally. Don't gimme crap about /DNC. If you come in a PT with me as NIN/DNC, trust me we will ask you politely to change support job or simply come on another jobs. They are plenty ninja that pretty much know how to hold hate as Ninja and Sange isn't the solution (Even more /DNC).

Edit: beside that, if you relying on Sange to get Aggro on a unacurated /Ja (hitting with all shadows is not 100%, Ask ranger with Barrage) Vs a /ja that actually have a Accurate amount of enmity, please, don't say you are a tank...

Perhaps you misunderstood my post?

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12oz are just trying to complicate things.

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.


EDIT- apparantly my spell check thought I was talking about a show from early 2000.

i think above all should shurikens become as good as they were in the past people are weiry of the money they would be investing i think above all. If that is the case most mats im sure would be easy to obtain and finding a cafter to assist wwhould not be hard.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Looking at the road map, ranged attack delay adjustments are coming and cheers to SE for bringing them.

I'm glad SE isn't pandering to the "only one way to skin a coeurl" school of thought, allowing for more flexibility of the job.

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Unfortunately for you, SE does think there's only one way to skin a coeurl as they've announced they're fundamentally changing the way ranged attacks work, which is what I've said needs to be done all along to make them even remotely useful. As for if it proves to be successful or a waste of time, we will have to wait and see, but I'd bet money on it still not being useful and not changing anything about the flexibility of NIN since SE has repeatedly shown they know nothing of the mechanics of their game. The "relic shuriken" is just the most recent example of this.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Again, you are assuming everyone is always /war.

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Good players are always subbing warrior on NIN, unless they're just moving their character around a bit to do random stuff and are subbing BLM for warp.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available.

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Want me to do math to show Sange shouldn't be used even when you don't have provoke? Look at my previous post, and wherever you see "Provoke" switch that to "Kurayami: Ni" Casting Kurayami: Ni will do the same thing Provoke would, and bring the mob back to you so you can melee and do more damage than some gimp ranged JA you seem to be so obsessed with.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

People choose to utilize other subs for various reasons. While /war is best in terms of DMG and tanking it is not always what is /sub'd at the time. So when the person is not /war they use the tactics they have available. This leads to SE updating things like Sange and Ranged Attack Delay (on roadmap for Autumn 2012).

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People using subjobs other than /WAR leads to SE making changes to the game mechanics for ranged attacks. Is this seriously what you just said? If anything is making SE change the mechanics of ranged attacks it's everything I've ever posted about them and why they're so horrible combined with the gimps crying because they want to waste gil and lose more inventory.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

I did not intend to imply that Sange is a great tool for hate generation in regards to tanking big events. I said "a great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning."

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And I just proved it's not useful for that either, so stop trying to say it is now.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

In fact, I've said in the numerous threads we're not discussing Ninja tanking events. We are talking about making use of tactics that are available to a job when you are in conditions that are less than optimal. It appears as if you and 12ozmouse are just trying to complicate things.

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It's funny how the only thing you have to fall back on is name calling. But seriously, I proved Sange isn't useful for anything at all. You can stop trying to say it is now.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

We have clearly agreed that /war is the best DMG and tanking /sub for Ninja.
Now, the rest of us would like to continue to discuss the updates SE has is sight for Sange and the 2012 road map. Anything else you and 12oz have to say will only be regarded as trying to provoke a problematic response.

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The way I see it, you're the only one here resorting to name calling and trying to start a fight. All I've done up to this point is respond with answers about game mechanics and how they work. If you think that's trying to start a fight you have some serious issues. Well, I guess my "I like detectives" comment could maybe be seen as mean spirited, but that doesn't change the fact that I was saying the truth about how poor someones ability to convey their thoughts is, and speaking the truth isn't the wrong thing to do, ever.

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Originally Posted by vixin

i think above all should shurikens become as good as they were in the past people are weiry of the money they would be investing i think above all. If that is the case most mats im sure would be easy to obtain and finding a cafter to assist wwhould not be hard.

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When you say shurikens were good at some point, I can only pray you mean at low levels, because they were never good at any other point in time.

You're wrong, people don't care about gil, gil is easy to make, the problem with throwing should it be worth using is the new gear set you will have to carry around. A good NIN already has a few TP sets, a few WS sets, PDT set, MDT set, maybe an evasion set, tools, tool bags, proc weapons, foods, echo drops, other meds. Adding a quiver of shurikens, the stack of shurikens you're currently using, and a set of ranged attack gear for when you easily cap acc, and a set for when you need lots of acc is going to be a major hindrance to good ninjas, and is the main reason shurikens actually need to do MORE damage than katanas to be useful. If they do the same amount of damage, or less damage, it won't be worth the gil or inventory to have them around.

What makes you think any new shurikens SE adds will even be remotely reasonable to acquire? Is it their track record for adding shurikens that are reasonable acquire? lol....

There is a presence of players [EU/JP/NA] that choose to use sange and throwing as needed; cheers to SE for continuing to update/adjust that aspect of the job.

I look forward to autumn to see what adjustments are in sight for ranged attack delay. I'm really hoping their only targets aren't RNG and COR.

I'd like to see an adjustment if possible to make Sange activate like Quickdraw.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

There is a presence of players [EU/JP/NA] that choose to use sange and throwing as needed;

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Originally I was going to write something else, but seriously, name me 1 instance, ONE, where throwing is at all useful. Can you even name one?

I also require you to PROVE it is useful in whatever instance you name.

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

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Originally Posted by vixin

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

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Why throwing will be better than melee on Ixion? He said prove it... you not proving me I should bring Shuriken to beat that NM over melee him...

he asked when was throwing ever useful i did state a reason if your pre aby which it sounds like let me speed you up to date only way you can ever claim is ixion is utlizing throwing skills to land stygi ash on him i think that plays a huge part there, not to mention back at lv 75 when using winds on sky gods.

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Originally Posted by vixin

and for that one instance where "Throwing" is useful you remember Dark Ixion right?

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Because the damage dealt by the thrown Stygian Ash didn't matter, pretty much anyone on any job using something to aid with accuracy worked. During that dark and miserable time when I was fighting Dark Ixion every day, I remember some dude playing two Preludes on himself and claiming the awful thing with his Bard.

Certain jobs worked better, Ranger rather than Ninja probably worked best, but this answer is obviously out of the Ninja-related context of Wish's question. Claiming Dark Ixion was more of a Ranged Accuracy check than a Throwing Check, unless an individual had never skilled Throwing up at all.

This is one step above saying that throwing matters because it's a great way to make a monster suprisingly mad from a very long distance, when it doesn't even matter if the attack lands or not.

While we're giving clever answers, spooking Dark Ixion required no Throwing Skill or Ranged Accuracy whatsoever, and doing that to spite another group was usually more fun than fighting the thing.

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Originally Posted by SpankWustler

While we're giving clever answers, spooking Dark Ixion required no Throwing Skill or Ranged Accuracy whatsoever, and doing that to spite another group was usually more fun than fighting the thing.

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gonna need some proof becasue nothing you said has any credit untill you do so.

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Originally Posted by vixin

gonna need some proof becasue nothing you said has any credit untill you do so.

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Sorry. English probably isn't your first language so I guess my weird sarcasm doesn't make a lot of sense. I'll explain.

The last paragraph refers to simply walking up to Dark Ixion, prompting the monster to run away and vanish, meaning that no one gets to fight it for a little while. A useful tactic when you wanted no one to fight Dark Ixion for a little while because it's funnier that way.

This is an entirely separate process from claiming Dark Ixion and fighting it, the process to which every paragraph above the last referred. To be very brief, the last paragraph was a joke and "spook" can mean to frighten a horse.

Does that make more sense?

I remember DI, more specifically I remember claiming it by hitting it with stygian ash on my warrior, without any ranged accuracy gear and about 100 skill, and doing it around 20 times and never missing. You didn't need throwing skilled up or gear to hit DI with an ash at 75, there's no way you do now. On top of that DI as of right now is completely useless, hitting sky gods with winds is also useless. Neither of these things matters and neither proves throwing is at all useful, especially since the smart thing to do with both of them is to have a RNG use unlimited shot and throw the ash/wind so you didn't lose it, and we're talking about NIN. So you have now managed to prove if you want to fight DI a RNG should have a stygian ash, please give one example of when throwing is actually useful now, and if possible, could you try to make it be something a NIN should be doing instead of a RNG?

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Originally Posted by vixin

nice mile long post 12oz but one thing, You are Wrong remember that kido.

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It's funny how your only response to me is "you're wrong." That statement needs more to it though, if I was actually wrong about anything so far you would say "You're wrong because ......................" and continue from there with a well thought out explanation of why I'm wrong. Because you have not done this, you have no credibility with your statement. I suggest you elaborate on this topic and explain what I am wrong about, and why I am wrong about it.

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Originally Posted by vixin

he asked when was throwing ever useful

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I asked for an example of when throwing is useful right now. Not when it use to be useful, or when it could theoretically be useful in the future.

EDIT2::::
You guys that love throwing so much are aware that by claiming throwing is at all useful right now, you're only hurting yourselves right? I could care less if throwing is made good, but you obviously want it to be good. Saying its useful now and trying to convince the DEVs of that will not get you throwing updated in a way to make it good, you'll only get a slightly better outcome than you have now, and it will still be useless and you'll still be ridiculed for being throwing ninjas. Saying it's good/useful is not what you want to be doing. Just take the hit, admit you know throwing is horrible, and you only use it because you think it's fun to RP Naruto, and we can all move on and maybe you'll get the update you so desperately want.

I would add... WTF Sange will do with claiming Dark Ixion, since the OP talk about Sange? Oh right, he asked for "when throwing is usefull". Kinda sad the only purpose Naruto fans had to offer is "claiming a NM when any job can do it" and "getting aggro when you don't have /WAR to voke"...

Edit: No disrespect Naruto fans. Myself I read that manga.

Bleh sad part is i've been a fan of naruto since ages before it hit america, it has never compelled me to want to use throwing on ninja, further more the american dub is trash not that i even watch the anime anymore filler pisses me off too much. (i read the mangas)

Edit: you @#$% throwing fantatics stay on nin specific threads

This is a RANGER thread

either way any delay adjustments should effect any ranged attack.

I was a fan of Final Fantasy years before I new about Naruto but I still find it hilarious that some think calling people Naruto fans will insult them. Wouldn't a Joe Musashi dig be more in-line? After all Shinobi was the game I remember being shuriken laden.

I would assume any ranged attack delay adjustment would cover any ranged attack. But I also assume SE can do whatever they like, if they leave Ninja and Throwing out, that's their call.

At any rate, I too am trying to--

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Originally Posted by Nala

get a good conversation going on the matter; perhaps they will take our suggestions on board... or at least respond.

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-- about Ranged attack delay.

I had some ponderings about it in the other thread but I thought they where more Gun/Bow oriented.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.



I like when you type responses to things, because half of your post makes no sense, and it's fun to pretend to be a detective and try to solve the puzzle of what you're trying to say.

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i like how you take intress in my post, i think you found a relationship lol

Hmm thinking about it. How would it be if Shurikens were not consumed on use? As in Ninja always had a 100% unlimited shot effect on throwing? Would make those R and R/EX Shurikens actually useful for something.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Hmm thinking about it. How would it be if Shurikens were not consumed on use? As in Ninja always had a 100% unlimited shot effect on throwing? Would make those R and R/EX Shurikens actually useful for something.

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Did you seriously just type this and fail to read/understand every post I made in this entire thread proving throwing was trash unless you can use 350+ damage shurikens? Adding unlimited shot to a sub 100 damage throwing star isn't going to fix anything except all the gil the RPs lose playing Naruto.

w12o- while you may have some very useful information, you also have a very rude and snobbish way of presenting it. And yet you question why most posters just ignore it? Perhaps you could improve your presentation, unless your intentions are merely to be problematic.

That being said, it's my opinion SE would never grant 100% unlimited shot. Nor would it really improve throwing. The problem exist with the delay that occurs after ranged attacks. Until SE addresses that throwing is only used by some and even then only in certain situations.

They do have ranged attack delay on the roadmap for autumn this year; well have to see what they come up with then.

The delay isnt all the problem about it, time to get the weapon out (shuriken) make the throwing motion, get the melee weapon back... All that make too much time. Haste and double attack don't stack either. Now with all the Dual attack, Double attack and haste gear, meleeing still the best option and I would rather improve Dual wield Via merits than Sange.
Sange could be only used in, well, no situation at all... (you didn't prove that Sange is usefull yet, sorry).

I would like Dual Wield Merits instead of sange. If you don't agree Dual wield merits could be more effective than Sange, well, I don't know what to say more with all argument we provided VS pro sange user, who never proved me yet, I should invest Merits in that useless job ability.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

w12o- while you may have some very useful information, you also have a very rude and snobbish way of presenting it. And yet you question why most posters just ignore it? Perhaps you could improve your presentation, unless your intentions are merely to be problematic.

That being said, it's my opinion SE would never grant 100% unlimited shot. Nor would it really improve throwing. The problem exist with the delay that occurs after ranged attacks. Until SE addresses that throwing is only used by some and even then only in certain situations.

They do have ranged attack delay on the roadmap for autumn this year; well have to see what they come up with then.

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if the ranged attack delays allows you to attack while throwing, It could drastically change NIN, Otherwise it will be ultimately pretty useless still.

And i can relate to Wish, Sometimes being rude is the only way people will listen to you, If you're nice all the time, People will walk all over you. Sucks, but sometimes people only understand force. Sad truths ;|

Oh, and Wish has posted on why Throwing is flawed well over a dozen times across several different NIN Threads and people still don't get how stupid and useless it is because they'd rather stick their head in the sand and ignore math >_>

We're not saying "it's better than melee", we've coincided to that over a 'dozen times across several different NIN Threads'. What we are saying is in some situations, because it is a tactic given to the job and when other conditions are not optimal we use it as is, when needed. We have listed those situations and have been rudely told that we are wrong for not having more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer.

SE is continuing to update Sange and ranged attack delay; cheers to them. Throwing will never surpass melee DMG, but that is no reason to forgo adjusting tactics available to a job. Look at what they did with the circle abilities; I have no doubt SE can make Sange/Throwing useful if they so choose.

Again, let me be clear, we are not arguing math. We are arguing that not everyone in this game has access to: more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer. So we work with what we have.

If you had a fish to cook and only two sticks would you eat raw fish and complain that those using the sticks to start a fire are doing it wrong because they don't have a flint-rock and fire starter kit, a lighter and some kindling, a Coleman grill, or a personal chef to do it for you? Because that's what it sounds like when the "you are wrong" sermon begins that has also been preached 'over a dozen times across several different NIN Threads'.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

if the ranged attack delays allows you to attack while throwing, It could drastically change NIN, Otherwise it will be ultimately pretty useless still.

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I am not familiar with COR, but does Quickdraw allow for continued melee during the shot? I wasn't sure if Sange was changed to mimic Quickdraw how that would effect the ability. At any rate it would seem like a plus as there would be no delay from having to make a ranged attack and just using Sange.

Assuming that the upcoming ranged attack delay adjustment are on the after side of the ranged attack, perhaps an ability similar to the rapid shot trait that would causes the ranged attacks to fire instantly would benefit the ability/skill. Or even a merit something like Desperate Blows but for /ra only.

Which situation? beside pulling a mob (and voke work better and faster btw)... Stop being so stuborn and maybe you wil start getting better gear and will be able to play NIN more often than playing with ninja star...

NIN is the easiest job to gear. Iga set +1 (and even +2) can be done solo/duo easily. Magian Katana are all soloable and you can even make friend in the process. Iga necklace can be soloed... now Supranomimi, Raja? Soloed by any BST. You want to play NIN? well the least you can do is to gear it properly.

You don't have any friend? I'm sorry to hear that, but maybe consider leveling BST/DNC and able to enjoy solo play better?

Note: I want Dual Wield Merit!!!

You nor any other cult-ninja is in a position to tell anyone how to play or enjoy the game. It's as much our right to play our style as it is as much yours to do your own thing.

People use Sange and Throwing; get over it. Stop being so problematic and maybe you can make some coherent post and get your DW merits.

On that note- I am certain that Dual Wield merits will upset a lot of folks that aren't ninja. So unless it ends up in an 'Other' category, good luck with that.

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Assuming that the upcoming ranged attack delay adjustment are on the after side of the ranged attack, perhaps an ability similar to the rapid shot trait that would causes the ranged attacks to fire instantly would benefit the ability/skill. Or even a merit something like Desperate Blows but for /ra only.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

What we are saying is in some situations, because it is a tactic given to the job and when other conditions are not optimal we use it as is, when needed.

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To bad those situations DO NOT EXIST.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

We have listed those situations

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You have yet to list 1 situation where doing a ranged attack is at all useful.
Outside of pulling a lame NM you shouldn't be fighting anyway.

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

Again, let me be clear, we are not arguing math. We are arguing that not everyone in this game has access to: more friends, a proper event linkshell, WHM mules in tow and all the best gear the game has to offer. So we work with what we have.

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The gimpest pink ninja is the world with a swift belt and AH katanas and no buffs will do more damage than the best throwing NIN in the game could hope to achieve with the best possible throwing sets ever, minuets and chaos roll to cap attack, whatever that snapshot roll is, the best food and the relic shuriken mentioned earlier.

Do I really need to do this math too? I already proved gimp katanas and a decent melee set in the worst condition beats the relic shuriken in the most favorable condition, and it does DOUBLE the damage. Maybe I should do this comparison again and use real stats for available shurikens and gear so you can see that the real difference is about 5x not 2x.

For the 20th time:
There is no point in the game after lvl 72 where throwing could ever be considered even remotely useful. AH katanas and pink gear is better.

At this point throwing is no where as useful as it used to be, but it clearly obvious SE has ranged attacks in their target for updates.

All we are trying to do is--

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get a good conversation going on the matter; perhaps they will take our suggestions on board... or at least respond.

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Feel free to keep insisting that it's useless and never going to be updated. But SE is already are updating Sange and by that alone you said if it happened you would quit the game. You even said I could quote you on that. It appears that you sir aren't true to your word. So you could at least quit being problematic in threads we are trying to hold conversations with Community Reps/Devs. You do not speak for them; let them tell us "it's not going to happen" and I'll stop offering suggestions how it could be improved upon....

and then [FOR the 20th time:] you can stop going around telling people they need more friends, better linkshells, all the best gear currently available in-game, how to spend our time, our dime and over all how to enjoy the game.

Prove me where we are wrong. Ninja need melee upgrade, not a "pulling" upgrade. Ninja need better Merits than useless one we have now (San spell is a joke, I would rather merit and improve enfeebling Ni than the silly San spell...) Sange is completly useless. The only merits that worth is: Subtle Blow and Ninja Tools Expertise. Do those Merits improve in anyway our melee skill: NO!

Even Shuriken thrower, you will be melee 90% of the time (don't tell me you will stay away and throwing, throwing and trowing, I don't believe you have enough gils to do that). So Improving our melee skill via merit IS the solution to NIN gimp DMG compare to MNK, THF, WAR and SAM one (I probably miss some other like BLU but let focus melee).

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

and then [FOR the 20th time:] you can stop going around telling people they need more friends, better linkshells, all the best gear currently available in-game, how to spend our time, our dime and over all how to enjoy the game.

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It's funny how I just said the worst pink ninja in the game with AH katanas will out damage the absolute best throwing ninja ever possible, and you still seem to think you need good stuff to melee.

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Originally Posted by wish12oz

The gimpest pink ninja is the world with a swift belt and AH katanas and no buffs will do more damage than the best throwing NIN in the game could hope to achieve with the best possible throwing sets ever, minuets and chaos roll to cap attack, whatever that snapshot roll is, the best food and the relic shuriken mentioned earlier.

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And again, you can do whatever, but don't go around telling people stupid crap like "throwing is useful" when it's not useful, and we won't have a problem. You have yet to name ONE instance where throwing is AT ALL useful. You just stand on your high horse and claim it is, but have yet to offer ANY proof. Your denial and continued efforts to support throwing is only going to hurt you in the end when SE see's you saying throwing is good, and doesn't update throwing to be good, they update it to continue being complete trash. When that happens I'm going to gloat about it and make fun of you, and I can't wait.

EDIT::::

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Originally Posted by Bulrogg

But SE is already are updating Sange and by that alone you said if it happened you would quit the game.

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That sounds like something I would say, but it's part of an entire overhaul of merits, not just a sange update.

Why don't you just let people want what they want. Seriously!

Disagree fine, but you really don't need to reply to EVERY post telling them they're wrong.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Why don't you just let people want what they want. Seriously!

Disagree fine, but you really don't need to reply to EVERY post telling them they're wrong.

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They reply to every post I make claiming throwing is useful, and offer no proof whatsoever, so ya, I do need to respond to them.
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post309446
How they can look at this and think throwing is useful is just beyond me though. It takes an extra special form of headinthesand to be able to do that.