Provenance Watcher~

nobody wants to join a point based ls where the best item are basically locked by all the people that got the highest points. My einherjar ls for example the rules were: you chose 2 items you want, if they drop, you can lot. worked great.

Honestly, I just view Pchans arguments against large scale LS's as a cover for the fact that no decent LS would let him join. He needs to try and convince others they're bad and that he's correct by not joining one because he can't join one.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

nobody wants to join a point based ls where the best item are basically locked by all the people that got the highest points. My einherjar ls for example the rules were: you chose 2 items you want, if they drop, you can lot. worked great.

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You need a system that encourages new members and keeps old members coming back. We have a capped point system where anyone who has the point value assigned to the item can lot, even new members. To the extent people want to "lock out" stuff, they can bid 2x.

In your example, what happens when someone gets both items? Did everyone stay till every last person got both items on their list? One event LS's/PUG's = no accountability, no continuity. "Worked great" for the people who win freelot against 12+ other people, sure, but does nothing to alleviate frustration when people can't make incremental progress and they have to rely on the hope that when 9/10 people get their item, they will stay till the group is 10/10.

Your system is also inapplicable to events like Prov Watcher where there are only 2 direct drop-only items. "Ok, I choose which items I want to freelot? I choose Meteor! Woops, 12 other people chose it ;;"

Multiple event LS = get your drop, and still attend event because you are accruing points for next item at next event

We still have sign-ups for drops and prioritise certain gear to certain jobs but we ditched any form of points system a long time ago. Most in the linkshell agree it was for the best.

Different strokes for different folks. Back on topic, has there been any testimonial of Meteor/Arise dropping in a personal chest? Seems these fights are not done often enough to know for sure.

We have not had any Arise or Meteor scrolls drop from a personal chest yet.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

And they took the ironic decision to put rare/ex into individual pool, and tradable items like meteor into the common pool. It's liek metal plates, your never going to seriously farm meteor, your best bet is to buy it in bazar w.

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Misinformation that about an event you haven't even tried that has been proven otherwise already. Most (if not all) of the rare/ex items for Provenance Watcher are in both the individual pool and the common pool.

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Originally Posted by Sukoshi

Look familiar?

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http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/20...on-d308diw.png

http://wiki.ffo.jp/img/26726/Provenance_Watcher_a.jpg

Yup.

Also, no there's no defending getting log and rocks from doing this fight. Nor defending the 990k I have to spend to get said logs and rocks, especially the fact that farming for the KIs is also impractical because unless you had stones pilled up you're also blowing gil on voiddust for no reason so no, no defending this at all. None. Zero. I'm generally the one that gets called a fangirl because I defended SE over Nyzul (when people said it sucked), Salvage and ZNM.

The Caturae chambers drop the KI's 100%. No need to spend 990k cruor or farm for KI

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

The Caturae chambers drop the KI's 100%. No need to spend 990k cruor or farm for KI

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This. For a good group, it takes a max of 90 mins to do all 3 fights + Dragon, and this includes running to Abyssea-Uleguerand (Resheph drops Revit) to reset 2-hours if the Caturae steal your 2-hours and changing jobs for the dragon / going over strategy.

90 mins for 12 logs!

Yes, 12 logs ;;

On the Caturae, we just have certain vital 2hr jobs stay back out of Pawn's Penumbra range. Saves some time on resetting, but obviously it is safer with your method.

Yeah just have the wars/brds/sch stay back and let the people with useless 2-hours kill that caturae. Like DRK and MNK etc.

The caturae fights are annoying (that charm > charmed people have add effect: charm is funny the first time I guess but thereafter grrrr...) but they're really easy.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

nobody wants to join a point based ls where the best item are basically locked by all the people that got the highest points. My einherjar ls for example the rules were: you chose 2 items you want, if they drop, you can lot. worked great.

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An LS I was in just used gil for points. You attend an event, you get a payout shortly after. If you want an item, bids start at 50k, and you outbid the other players to win the item, then pay it to the shell leader. After the event, all gil paid to the leader is split between the attendees, evenly (with deductions for being late or whatever, and maybe bonuses for being the event coordinator). If it's a farming run, after the items are sold (such as Umbral Marrow), the gil is split between the people that attended the event to farm them. If you're mercing out to do FC EXP leech parties or get people outside the LS the items they want, than the gil is split between the people killing the mobs.

If you don't bid on items, you get rich. Then when you do have items to bid on, you have a lot of gil to do so with.

Meh, if gear drops were plentiful you could use a system like Suicide Kings instead of having to deal with point-based systems. For those not familiar, Suicide Kings is basically a list of the people in the group. Person in spot #1 gets to roll on their loot of choice, and when they do they go to the bottom of the list. Person that was #2 is now #1, they get to roll on their loot of choice, and so on. Of course, SK assumes two things: you're a static, and drops are plentiful to the point there is regular movement in the SK list. Worked well for my guild in WoW, specially in places like Ulduar that had a crapton of bosses with stuff everyone wanted or needed to some degree.

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Originally Posted by saevel

It's artificial difficulty. Instead of implementing a weekly cooldown timer they instead restrict the drop rates to ridiculously low levels. Accomplishes the same goal in the end which is to force you to keep playing and make acquiring those rewards take a long time. The gamblers fallacy will have you coming back over and over again.

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Atleast in older systems, we could do other things til we get to do event again, this way, we just spam and actually PLAY PLAY PLAY to get lol. I like the idea of waiting a few days to enter events more :/

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Originally Posted by Monchat

nobody wants to join a point based ls where the best item are basically locked by all the people that got the highest points. My einherjar ls for example the rules were: you chose 2 items you want, if they drop, you can lot. worked great.

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That's not free lot for all, which is what your buddy says here:

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Best thing I did was Einherjar where the lotting rule basically free lot for everyone, and the LS last like 2 years, 33 odin.

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Guess you 2 weren't in the same Einherjar ls?

As I say in all forums I see pchan in, just ignore him. He is only negative, and only talks about his relic 99s lol. All other events fail except dyna in his eyes, and mnk is fastest and best DD job.

You still didn't explain how you WS right prior to a melee round .

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

That's not free lot for all, which is what your buddy says here:



Guess you 2 weren't in the same Einherjar ls?

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It's pretty much the same, the point is it's miles aways from a point system, the system has no memory. Most people ended up lotting shit like Ebody, and everything else was free lot, and since most lotted ebody well.. ebody was also free lot.

Free lot and pick two items to lot are pretty much the same concept, it's just a matter of limiting people so they don't go crazy. You're still free to lot any item you've got your heart set on, just not every single item in the pool.

In this day and age where everybody has a job of each type, it really makes things simpler. If your group is tight-knit enough, people will pass for each other. It's also a lot easier on the leader.

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Originally Posted by bungiefanNA

An LS I was in just used gil for points. You attend an event, you get a payout shortly after. If you want an item, bids start at 50k, and you outbid the other players to win the item, then pay it to the shell leader. After the event, all gil paid to the leader is split between the attendees, evenly (with deductions for being late or whatever, and maybe bonuses for being the event coordinator). If it's a farming run, after the items are sold (such as Umbral Marrow), the gil is split between the people that attended the event to farm them. If you're mercing out to do FC EXP leech parties or get people outside the LS the items they want, than the gil is split between the people killing the mobs.

If you don't bid on items, you get rich. Then when you do have items to bid on, you have a lot of gil to do so with.

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This is a semi-popular form of PuG raiding content in World of Warcraft and it's really successful on the servers where it's common enough for the particulars to be common knowledge among said PuG players: everybody joins the raid and bids on drops and pays the winning bids to the raid leader, and the pot's split at the end of the run. GMs intervene to prevent ninja'ing of pots (which frequently get up to the hundreds of thousands of gold these days).

That's an interesting system, but I could see it being abused. Assume an alliance of 18 people where several people have 20M+ gil and Meteor or Arise drops. The people who have 20M+ gil try to outbid each other again and again till the final pricetag is 15M for the scroll. The proceeds are then distributed to the alliance (which only means ~882,000 gil to each person). Next time the group goes (assuming the guy who won the scroll even BOTHERS to attend again since why would he need to now?), again the pricetag for Meteor/Arise reaches 15M. Again, it goes to one of the people who have mucho gil. Again, the proceeds are distributed. Rinse, repeat. The people who didn't come to the group with mucho gil have to keep waiting and waiting until the incremental gil they receive from each successive payout finally approaches a threshold level where they can use their prior earnings to bid and win the scroll. (Yes, I am aware they or others can farm in the interim.) This assumes anybody who wins the scrolls actually sticks around, which in a low-accountability group where the "system has no memory" is a high hope at best.

The other proposed system "everyone chooses 1-2 items to freelot" has the same issues when only 2 items are highly desired to begin with, and the event's success depends on the continued attendance of the first few people who won freelots. Imagine how it would fly the first time someone who won an E.Body in that system says to the others "Hay guize, can't make Ein anymoar, I hav a class."

Lol nope, the guy that gets ebody in your system is also leaving so that's not a disadvantage (and has more reasons to leave in case he wants a second item because then he is at the bottom of the list). You can't force people to keep doing the event regardless of the system. But in the end you will have much less trouble recruiting 1 ppl with "free lot" rather than "point system, you win one point a day and need 100 for your ebody". The gil system is pretty much fail. All you have to do is own an alt char or a mule on which you could farm money (honestly 16+ millions is not much money, I don't see how meteor could sell for less than 50 millions) or even farm money without being in the LS and then pop and buy.

The ideal system for Legion, even though I did not do it yet would be, since all gear but HQ abj are trash :
pick a abjuration type, and free lot on it.
free lot on whatever gear drops.
But to participate you need decent gear aka level 90 empy (for DD, magian staves for mages) and at least full AF3+2.

The guy that gets E.Body (or Meteor/Arise) in my system doesn't leave the LS once he gets an item because he has multiple goals, and the LS does many more events than just the event that drops E. Body. Every single event he attends (including re-attending the one he just got the E. Body from) gets him closer to another item. You wrongly assume he is at the "bottom of a list" for a second item when he could have already earned enough points for E. Body AND another item simply by attending all the different events, and only been limited by drop rate.

You CAN provide incentives for people to keep doing the event in my system. The best LS's have little attrition. If your theory were true, every person in the history of LS's in this game who ever got an item they wanted would then instantly leave the LS or never set foot into an event they have all the loot from. I don't even have to disprove such an absurd result because anecdotally, you know it not to be true.

The guy that gets E. Body (or Meteor/Arise) in your system has ZERO incentive to stay because if the group only does ONE event, there is literally nothing left for him. You also contemplate recruiting another person with "freelot" to substitute the one who left, but you fail to see how this penalizes the people who remained, and resets their chances at winning the next freelot.... Think harder.

Your statement about all gear in Legion being trash except HQ abjurations is biased since obviously you consider all jobs besides MNK, WHM, and BRD to be trash. So it's a non-starter. I will say it's provably false as there are some superior pieces for other jobs. However, I wish you good luck in clearing Legion with an alliance full of MNK WHM BRDs, and then retaining all 18 people till each person gets the abjurations they wanted.

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

That's an interesting system, but I could see it being abused. Assume an alliance of 18 people where several people have 20M+ gil and Meteor or Arise drops. The people who have 20M+ gil try to outbid each other again and again till the final pricetag is 15M for the scroll. The proceeds are then distributed to the alliance (which only means ~882,000 gil to each person). Next time the group goes (assuming the guy who won the scroll even BOTHERS to attend again since why would he need to now?), again the pricetag for Meteor/Arise reaches 15M. Again, it goes to one of the people who have mucho gil. Again, the proceeds are distributed. Rinse, repeat. The people who didn't come to the group with mucho gil have to keep waiting and waiting until the incremental gil they receive from each successive payout finally approaches a threshold level where they can use their prior earnings to bid and win the scroll. (Yes, I am aware they or others can farm in the interim.) This assumes anybody who wins the scrolls actually sticks around, which in a low-accountability group where the "system has no memory" is a high hope at best.

The other proposed system "everyone chooses 1-2 items to freelot" has the same issues when only 2 items are highly desired to begin with, and the event's success depends on the continued attendance of the first few people who won freelots. Imagine how it would fly the first time someone who won an E.Body in that system says to the others "Hay guize, can't make Ein anymoar, I hav a class."

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It's an endgame LS, and they do lots of events. If you don't attend events regularly enough, you get kicked from the LS and stop making money and getting the items you want. Quitting events because you got one item you want is going to hurt you in the long run.

You're also forgetting gil distribution for bids on other drops.

One group doing multiple events sounds better to me, sure, but I still query what happens in the scenario I painted where there are inequities in gil and/or outside farming sources. Seems to me that a "gil bidding" system could turn into a continuing game of oneupsmanship where someone would get penalized if they didn't do outside farming and/or the price for ra/ex items becomes vastly inflated because more gil is "entering the system."

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Originally Posted by Elexia

Lol yes because we go into doing VW with aspirations of collecting every log in this game, right?

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I got pretty much everything I wanted from Voidwatch, I threw a lot of logs away, traded a lot of cells.

Made a lot of cruor money.

Persistence I suppose, who knows.

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Originally Posted by Urteil

I got pretty much everything I wanted from Voidwatch, I threw a lot of logs away, traded a lot of cells.

Made a lot of cruor money.

Persistence I suppose, who knows.

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I envy you. But i also stare at what i can only assume is a shot that anyone who doesn't have their Armor is either

A) Lazy/Unpersistant
B) Not trading cells.

Which is the vibe i get from that post. I can tell you pretty confidently after over 700 Voidwatch runs, 300-400 Of them on 2 NMs specifically, I have a grand total of 1 Body i wanted. Ironically the one i wanted the least, But one I wanted no less. it was the Cure Pot. Body. The ones I'm missing are:

Athos Tabard
Mekira Body
Toci's Harness

Theres also some minor items I've got/want But not worth mentioning. I've also killed the Tier3 Bastok/San/Win "Body" NMs a few times, But most of those were for fun... I was persistent to the point i want to tie 'someone' to a chair, and rip out his teeth 1 by 1, and every time i pull a tooth, I'd tell him "Another LOG!" or "Another Ore!". Because that's what voidwatch became to me, pulling my teeth out.

Yeah, anyone with common sense knows no matter how much persistence you show you're still at the mercy of RNG. I even got my Toci without trading cells, on my first kill.

Yet with constantly trading cells I'm still 0/1xx on Athos gear.

Provenance Watcher drop rate is retarded. Up to 30 kills now and only have seen 2 staffs from the Trove. Provenance Watcher itself hasn't dropped much ether. The drop rate is really low for having to farm so much to get the access, crystals, KIs and then final do the fight. Having to redo all that just to see Red rocks, Petrified logs, and gold ores is dumb. Should at least be a cruor and xp reward or a 100% random abj.

As a final boss, it shouldn't have such a low drop rate. All the requirements to redo the fight already limit how many times you can do it.

Totally agree with you on all counts!! But they just cannot let us have fun, even with the 24 hours limitation, and the 3 KIs that we have to REPEATEDLY get EVERY SINGLE TIME, which is extremely RETARDED.... Those KIs should be permanent and need only to be gotten once. These new contents are highly retarded to be honest. If it is just low drop rates, that's one thing, you get used to it - but all these "invisible hands" to make sure that we cannot progress is ridiculous.

I actually completely agree with this. Other "final bosses" of content in this game have actually had higher drop rates or 100% drops (AV, PW, Kirin, Odin, etc). I don't see why Prov Watcher should be any different.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

3 KIs that we have to REPEATEDLY get EVERY SINGLE TIME, which is extremely RETARDED.... Those KIs should be permanent and need only to be gotten once.

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You never did the Sky Gods, did you?

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

I actually completely agree with this. Other "final bosses" of content in this game have actually had higher drop rates or 100% drops (AV, PW, Kirin, Odin, etc). I don't see why Prov Watcher should be any different.

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Kirin and Odin have high drop rates? Well, that's news to me. I would also like to point out that (when these NMs were in their prime) it took much longer to get a pop. The kupofried thingy is a bit of a bottleneck now, I suppose, but a year from now you'll have more provenance access saved up than you'll use in your lifetime.

Here's the reason threads bashing the drop rate of VW stuff is so common: I went 0/10, therefore droprate sucks. I went 7/7, therefore drop system sucks. This 30 minute event has a lower drop rate than an NM who takes 30 man-hours to get a pop for, therefore drop rate sucks.

My personal experience with VW versus my experience with getting a Novio earring: I did ~16 Akvans, about 10-15 minutes per kill and got kalasiris, and then I stopped killing Akvan. I did ~24 Qilins, about 5 minutes per kill and got Fajin boots, and then I stopped killing Qilin. I joined an endgame LS, farming sea twice a week for 2-4 hours per run. After half a year (56 sea runs for ~3 hours each or roughly 150 hours of sea), it was finally my turn for a Novio, and then I kept doing sea.

I assume you are aware of the irony of using the very type of personalized argument in your third paragraph that you highlight in your second paragraph. I was intentionally trying not to personalize my own drop rate (which is fairly good) but instead use the general trend of anecdotes from people.

In any event, yes, Kirin and Odin have higher drop rates for items and abjurations. Sure, perhaps not the most DESIRED ones (W. Legs, E. Body), but higher drop rate of stuff nonetheless. Odin has guaranteed loot slots for abjurations. Prov Watcher's loot table is just as big, if not bigger, than Kirin/Odin etc. But most of those items have the exact same low drop rate. As for your other example, JoL farts out an earring 100%, it's just a flip of the coin whether it's a Novia or Novio. Your personal experience is irrelevant to my point because although it took you time to get DKP for a Novio, OTHER PEOPLE in your group were getting either Novias or Novios every kill. That isn't happening here.

Granted it does take longer to get popsets for other endgame content bosses, but I guess people can decide for themselves whether a 1-5% drop rate of an NM that takes 6 Caturae kills and a Dragon kill evens out with an NM like Odin that takes 9 chamber kills spread out over a larger time period and a horsey kill.

With Voidwach as a whole, I'd love some sense of being on a path; some route to eventually earning a reward other than this "random chance" mechanic that seems to infect everything lately. Still think a point system would have been the best way to handle drops in VW, even if it was 50 "Pil points" for a Toci's harness.

No offence, but 1/16 on any of the bodies is a superb rate of success. VW has made me quite bitter with the time I have put in and with few results to show for it.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

This 30 minute event has a lower drop rate than an NM who takes 30 man-hours to get a pop for, therefore drop rate sucks.

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I agree and disagree. Most things sea or sky-related these days can be low-manned and even duo-ed in a lot of cases, but the vast timesinks are still there. Zipacna potentially drops two gems now, but still can take 2-4 hours to respawn. You can duo Ix'DRK, but it might decide to reraise 30 times, in which case you're going to be there a long time.

VW as an event (with a competent group) may be short, but is it really an excuse for the system being the way it is? I'd take a path of progression over a random chance any day.

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Originally Posted by Yinnyth

Kirin and Odin have high drop rates? Well, that's news to me. I would also like to point out that (when these NMs were in their prime) it took much longer to get a pop. The kupofried thingy is a bit of a bottleneck now, I suppose, but a year from now you'll have more provenance access saved up than you'll use in your lifetime.

Here's the reason threads bashing the drop rate of VW stuff is so common: I went 0/10, therefore droprate sucks. I went 7/7, therefore drop system sucks. This 30 minute event has a lower drop rate than an NM who takes 30 man-hours to get a pop for, therefore drop rate sucks.

My personal experience with VW versus my experience with getting a Novio earring: I did ~16 Akvans, about 10-15 minutes per kill and got kalasiris, and then I stopped killing Akvan. I did ~24 Qilins, about 5 minutes per kill and got Fajin boots, and then I stopped killing Qilin. I joined an endgame LS, farming sea twice a week for 2-4 hours per run. After half a year (56 sea runs for ~3 hours each or roughly 150 hours of sea), it was finally my turn for a Novio, and then I kept doing sea.

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That was then, this is now.

There is no excuse. Content like Provenance could have a similar system to Nyzul uncharted where after X clears you can choose a piece of gear you want. We all have been through the toils of dealing with DKP and LS politics but that is irrelevant when SE creates new content because if they felt inclined to they could make things free of such annoyances by showing people a clear goal to loot if you do something.

They haven't for whatever reason so PUGs will continue to squabble over the one pool drop, people will feel they've wasted their time and the cycle continues.

Although I wouldn't mind seeing Prov Watcher shit out an abjuration or something 100%, I actually wish all Voidwatch mobs had similar loot mechanics to this dragon: individual loot pools AND direct drops. This is one trend I like, and I wish they retroactively applied it to prior VWNM's. The individual pools would reward the PUGs, and the direct drops would reward the DKP-based LS's.

I was in a non-LS group the other day and Tessera Saio dropped. The screen filled with lots. I started to gnash my teeth and think about what would have happened if it dropped for my LS: some excited Wildfire COR would have spent DKP and got it ;;

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Originally Posted by Mahoro

I assume you are aware of the irony of using the very type of personalized argument in your third paragraph that you highlight in your second paragraph.

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I can see why people would think that, and I suppose that's my fault for not better outlining my argument. I wasn't trying to say that basing it on personal experience is bad. Personal experience, after all, is all we have to go on for this. It's just that you have to keep in mind there are a vast number of personal experiences we choose not to, or are unable to consider. I told no one in my PuG when my kalasiris or my boots dropped, so for all they know, the drop rate is uber crappy. Though to be fair, 4 other people actually admitted to getting fajin boots (one of them claiming to get 3 pairs).

My point is this: people have one bad experience and then they hyper-focus on it, ignoring everything else. But they forget that they got omphalos bullet on their first set of akvans (even though they might not play cor). They neglect to mention that they got brego gloves while they were just doing one kill to tier-up. They choose not to pay attention to the fact that 7 people in their group got the item they wanted from the kill in one set of 4 kills. The luck swings back and forth in VW as it does in any event. It averages out to be a better drop rate than Einherjar, Sky Gods, Sea Gods, Land Gods, and Zeni NMs.

You will spend less time killing Qilin for a sparkle dagger than you would spend sitting around dragon aery and waiting for claim, then waiting for drops, then waiting for your turn to finally get ridill. (yes, I know the system has changed now, I'm talking about the way it was when Ridill was shiny). But since people only pay attention to the big items they want, and they only pay attention to their own loot pool, and they see 0 drops, they begin to think to themselves: "0% drop rate = worse than 5% drop rate on defending ring", therefore droprate is worse than King Behemoth. Which is untrue. It won't be long before there's more Adamas' on each server than defending rings.

True, you could get unlucky and wind up going 1/100. But in that time, you'll probably get half of Provenance's other drops, and it's still no more ridiculous than the drop rates of old.

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Originally Posted by Aequis

I agree and disagree. Most things sea or sky-related these days can be low-manned and even duo-ed in a lot of cases, but the vast timesinks are still there. Zipacna potentially drops two gems now, but still can take 2-4 hours to respawn. You can duo Ix'DRK, but it might decide to reraise 30 times, in which case you're going to be there a long time.

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And years from now, I'm guessing Voidwatch will be in the same position. It's unfair to compare VW now to Sky 7 years old. In the old days, Zipacna couldn't drop 2 pop items, his repop timer was less forgiving, and you'd be in heated competition with other linkshells. He also couldn't be solo'd by anything short of an avesta-level rdm, but that would take somewhere around an hour to do.

I'm not fighting the fact that drop rates suck and always will suck(in whatever events come after VW). I'm more arguing against people who claim that it's worse now than it used to be. What are your hopes of getting Tessera Saio nowadays compared to your hopes of getting Ninurta's Sash back at level 75?

I suppose the big exception would be Abyssea. Abyssea was wtf amounts of loot for (comparatively) very little work.

The purpose of Abyssea was to 'fast-forward' people from 75-90 to prepare them for the eventual true endgame of present and future. Pre-75 it took weeks to get a job to 75 well geared, they figured it'd be easier to do a battle content scenario to have copious amounts of 76-90 gear to get everyone up to par. AF3+2 by the time endgame is settled in for level 99, should end up being like AF2 was at 75, relegated to situational uses. When AF2 first came out, it was hot and sought after(pre homam/askar/nashira/odin/znm/toau gear) then once all that new gear came out, AF2 become lolAF2. So we can probably presume that with NeoNyzul/Limbus/VW and future expansion/NM gear that AF3+2 will eventually become the new lolAF2.