This is the same mentality that resulted in segregation in the USA back when laws protected bigots. The government basically stated that it was okay to segregate people as long as facilities where made for both parties. It didn't work out because one side was always lower quality. Don't try and sugar coat this it's obvious that other regions don't get the same quality or respect as the Japanese player base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Simply put there is no difference the end result is still a type segregation no matter how you post.
Moogle egg
Printable View
-
04-12-2012, 03:14 AMSarick
-
04-12-2012, 05:48 PMAlhanelem
It's no more segregation than all other regionalization that exists in the world of video games.
There is nothing wrong with region specific events. You can use demon words like segregation all you want, but I really don't see the harm in this. This isn't the early to mid 1900s and people aren't being directly indirectly punished by this.
In respect to events, I'm sorry but I don't agree. You and others are really getting panties bunched up for no good reason on this. Is a JP forum event telling people to find a certain spot in the game really a "higher quality" event than the more creativity-oriented events we've had in the past? Check out some of the awesome cakes, images, etc that people have created for NA contests in the past. The JP forum event was very static and uninspired by comparison. The only reason people are whining is because it involved doing something in the game. That doesn't automatically make it a superior event. When I consider this, I do not see NA players getting inferior forum events to the JP players and see no justification for the accusations of favoritism.Quote:
on't try and sugar coat this it's obvious that other regions don't get the same quality or respect as the Japanese player base.
(Note that this is specifically in regards to the issue of this thread- There are other topic areas where I feel like there may actually be an issue like this)
People read way too dang far into things these days. -
04-13-2012, 03:39 AMSeiowan
Moogles lay eggs? The mystery of Moogle reproduction has been solved! I always wondered how an apparently genderless species managed to populate Vanadiel in such numbers that every adventurer could have their own house Mog.
It's a good thing wyrms don't reproduce in such numbers or we'd be up to our eyeballs in Tiamat babies all looking for a tasty adventurer for their midday snacks... -
04-14-2012, 01:31 AMSarickWith all do respect you missed the point entirely. I quoted when you said something about us getting our own events and rewards so everything is fine. The whole point is equality, everyone pays for this game even if they don't care about doing the special events they should have equal access. The damage control post takes a big dump on fairness by trying to candy coat things. This alone provided enough to prove a point. Based on the comment above where you think "People read way too dang far into things these days.", why did you even bother posting a response? It's simple ether you don't care about it or you do care.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Alhanelem, you seem like a reasonable intelligent person. You may not realize it but your first comment supports a passive aggressive/damage control of a type that defends unfairness. It is an insult to the intelligence of people who see things in a different perspective based on past experiences. -
04-14-2012, 02:08 AMDazusuI don't remember that in the EULA I agreed to when I signed up to the game. If it was there, then maybe you'd have a case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarick
-
04-14-2012, 05:08 AMSarickWhat does the EULA have to do with this, I didn't mention legal obligations. I said "Should" I didn't say "is obligated." That makes a lot of difference don't you think? There's nothing wrong with someone having an opinion about making things equal in a moral sense. The problem is when someone who doesn't care plays devils advocate to candy coat an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazusu
I did mention that everyone pays to play. In my opinion everyone who pays "should" be treated equally. It's true this company isn't obligated legally. They can easily cancel FFXI tomorrow and the players couldn't do much about it except, maybe request a small refund.
I'm simply trying to point out there have been a few concerns of bias in the past on these forums. A select few are constantly defending/making excuses in defense of backward thinking. In this case I assume people can understand that if it's such minor event why not give everyone the same opportunity in good faith?
See where I'm going here? -
04-15-2012, 02:15 AMAlhanelem???Quote:
Alhanelem, you seem like a reasonable intelligent person. You may not realize it but your first comment supports a passive aggressive/damage control of a type that defends unfairness. It is an insult to the intelligence of people who see things in a different perspective based on past experiences.
They're not being passive/aggressive, and they're not defending unfairness, because it's not unfair. If I agreed that it really was unfair, then you might have a point- but whether it's fair or not is a matter of opinion.
People are crying "UNFAIR!" because the JP's event involved finding an NPC they hid somewhere? Is that really so fun and exciting that whatever they might give us would automatically pale in comparison?
How about reserving some judgement for when the next forum event comes up before jumping to conclusions?
Concerns are fine- prejudging and assuming what you think is the truth is not.Quote:
I'm simply trying to point out there have been a few concerns of bias in the past on these forums.
-
04-15-2012, 10:50 AMSarickA question near the end of my comment was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
I think that sentence speaks for itself.Quote:
"In this case I assume people can understand that if it's such minor event why not give everyone the same opportunity in good faith?"
-
04-15-2012, 12:02 PMAlhanelem
They will be giving us our own event. We will get our good faith opportunity.
-
04-16-2012, 01:19 AMSarickYou said this as though it's fact.. Reminds me of this quote below.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
So we've come full circle. This reminds me of the next quote. >>Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
The above quotes are relatively the same "It's Fine" opinion as the first quote. It's trying to make everything look pointless. That defense is flawed you said so yourself whats fair is a matter of opinion in a previous post. There is also blind faith that whats assumed is already fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Events are like movies, Transformers and Mission Impossible are both movies but they technically aren't the same. In this topic, the JP players had an egg hunt. Good faith is an egg hunt not a PVP or a cake baking contest. To classify these as equals is a matter of personal opinion. These can't truly be compared because they aren't really the same. Somehow you don't seem to understand this because from what I'm reading all events no matter what the content are the same and it doesn't really matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Alhanelem, The above quotes show how one sided this argument is when they're used as a defense. I've been rational about my reasoning. The players who are upset are because to them they've been excluded. You might not feel the same entitlement however, the comments you've made more or less imply that the other posters arguments are without value. This is apparently your only defense. From my perspective it's seems personal to you that people are upset and they obviously aren't being reasonable.
Let me finish by saying this. These players including me, have every right to complain. Being apathetic about the emotional side others express doesn't help the argument. It's a devils advocate playing damage control over minor details that can't cause harm by ignoring them. If you want to help just drop the "It's fine" attitude and let people be upset. The only thing you've managed to do escalate the issue by respectfully saying "SHUT UP PEOPLE". If this was something that you needed to defend like an in game nerf I'd be more inclined to understand your reasoning but, it's not. -
04-16-2012, 01:31 AMAlhanelem
I have no intention of denying you a right to complain, but some complaints are reasonable, and some are not. I do not find that these complaints are reasonable.
There is nothing wrong with having different contests on a regional basis (as long as each region still gets a contest). The one expectation I would have is that the prizes of each contest have similar monetary value.
You also have to consider the community contests. For instance, while I was actively admin'ing FFXIclopedia before the founder's move to GE, we got a rather valuable prize to give away to the winner of our art contest (which SE supported). Community sites ask SE if they can support a contest, and because of this, you get many conetsts on our side of the pond that may be totally different and maybe even better than what you see in Japan. The reason the contests are different is because they are devised by different people. I really don't think there's much more to it than that.
Liiterally the only reason this thread even started was because the JP forum event involved finding something in the game, which an NA player happened to come across. If that egg wasn't there, we wouldn't be having this conversation. So it seems to me that people are truly more bothered about the fact that their event included something in-game (even though it was trivial and uninteresting), more than they are bothered about us getting different events, because nobody noticed this before now, and now we're suddenly on a holy crusade for equality.
Again, to avoid any confusion: This post and all previous ones are specifically in reference to this contest issue. There are true inequality issues elsewhere (e.g. communication) but their addressability in many cases is limited.
No, good faith is giving us a contest, with a comparable reward. The nature of the contest itself is not relevant. If they gave us a "better" contest with a "better" prize, would you still be complaining? Or would your heart be pining for the japanese to get the exact same event as us in the name of equality?Quote:
Good faith is an egg hunt not a PVP or a cake baking contest.
I still think you are reading way too far into it. This is all I have to say- you really should wait and see what happens before passing further judgement. -
04-16-2012, 07:58 AMSarickAgain this is a matter of opinion and your defense is based around what you think is reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Again this is a matter of opinion and your defense is it's okay if each region still gets a contest. My last post gave a prime example why events and contest can't be judged on the same level. The statement I made about movies is not an opinion it's a fact that they can never be totally equivalent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
The excuse "contests are different is because they are devised by different people." doesn't matter. If it can be done for one party it can be done for the other.
Every crusade needs two sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
This is an excuse translators are available full time. This is 2012 not the 1900's where school was just an option. In Japan for instance most of the schools teach English as a requirement. These requirements have been mandatory for several years. English isn't as rare in Japan as you think, most people aren't aware of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Again your trying to compare different contest and events. "You can't really compare two different things sometimes. If you tell someone lets go watch a movie the first thing they'll ask is what type of movie or the name of the movie. It's not because they don't like movies it's because the term movie is a generalization.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Like you said "holy crusade", if they complained you bet your bottom I'd be cheering them on if I was aware.
I've seen what happens, the play online still shows Valkyrie Profile II in the advertisements with available in stores now on PS2. You're telling me to wait? If people don't complain then most of the time things don't get acknowledged. Think about what your defending for a moment and the nature behind it. You've chosen to tell everyone don't worry about it, everything is okay, or let's see what happens. Honestly, you've done more to escalate this conversation then anyone complaining by playing damage control. If it's not a big deal why are you still defending your side? Your argument should be able to defend itself if the complaints are so unreasonable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
-
04-16-2012, 08:55 AMAlhanelemThis picture expresses better than words what you are doing in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarick
-
04-16-2012, 02:29 PMSarickI must admit that post made me laugh my rear off. Not in a disrespectful or arrogant manner towards you it was actually quite funny. I hope you understand, I wasn't trying to harass you or disrupt the thread. I truly think that everyone should have the same opportunities and I respectfully stand by this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
-
04-16-2012, 03:44 PMAlhanelem
I understand how you feel, but I don't feel everything has to be 100% equal to be fair.
-
04-17-2012, 02:04 AMSarickI think you understand we're more or less sides of a fence. What we think differs slightly about events and contest. In my case I'm trying to defend how important it is to keep everything equal as humanly possible. On the other side of this conversation is you trying to undermined everything in the way of progress. Telling people to wait, shut up, and it's unreasonable based on personal opinion. If anything you should be following the advice you've been giving others including me this whole time. Alhanelem, there is no honor in bringing down a good cause no matter how unreasonable you think it is. This is especially true if it has no real negative impact on your person. What I'm defending is to help people by acknowledging how important keeping things equal and fair. Please think about true nature behind your defense arguments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Let's take movies as an example again. Consider this, if you received movies on DVD in the mail every month and your distant relatives also received movies of equal value in your opinion this would be fair. Based on your views it would be fine if they got the different movies because they cost the same. Look closely at this argument. If you received movies like "Glen or Glenda" and "Freddy Got Fingered" and they received movies like "The Terminator" and "Goodfellas." would you still be trying to compare things based on equal values? Equal isn't always good when it's all based on personal opinion. If the there are no opinion variables there's nothing really to compare.
As I've stated before why people complain. I also stated if they didn't a lot of things wouldn't get acknowledged. There is also another reason why people complain. It's because they care about something. Equality in events should be important. In my best judgement someone defending anything less then allowing everyone an equal opportunity does more damage then good. All you have to do is agree to what is underlined in the comment above. On a final note: In your quote you say 100%. No, it's more like 99% or slightly less that this conversation is about. -
04-17-2012, 09:14 AMAlhanelemAnd I'm trying to defend how unimportant it is to keep everything as equal as humanly possible. Again, things don't have to be equal to be fair. Fairness is more important than equality. Over at the FFXI forums, EU, NA, JP all have different events for some things. Other things, they all have the same event. (e.g., the current event of guessing how long it will take after the next patch before people beat the new boss) Nobody complains about this over there.Quote:
In my case I'm trying to defend how important it is to keep everything equal as humanly possible.
We're clearly on opposite sides of a great wall. There's really no point in debating this. -
04-17-2012, 06:48 PMDragoy><)))°€
I don't really care about forum/in-game events not being available for everyone that much, as it takes considerably more effort to do that... >.>
However, when they go as far as preparing in-game items, those, I think, should be available to everyone or no one. Now that would be fair I think (thinking of the annual in-game events gives a good idea of what I mean). Same goes with items obtained for participating in real-life events, too, so it's not like this has not been going on forever already, and frankly I don't think complaining at this point will help at all.
Being outside of both, the Japanese as well as the American player-base does not help, either. :b
Either way, I am not sure what you two are debating on right now.
Just about the events themselves, or the rewards?
In-game rewards or real-life items?
I think clearing that up might get you somewhere (unless I'm the only one within a haze). -
04-18-2012, 01:10 AMDoombringer
i wonder what it would feel like to be the jp dev that designed this contest reading this thread.
no good deed goes unpunished right? -
04-18-2012, 02:43 AMSarickSeeing as you don't have a good defense even after given excellent perceptions in great detail I can agree there is no point in debating this. We disagree, I want things to be more equal you want to hold things back. The effort I've made to move forward can more then defend itself at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
For the most part I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoy
His side of the debate is extremely lax almost apathetic of the situation. It defies logic and makes me wonder why he even would want to defend his position. His argument makes the assumption that personal judgement of whats fair has no consequences. If there is no standardized method of making things equal as humanly possible there is no faith. Why?, because the guidelines he proposed as fair are based on personal perception. When these guidelines are handed over to multiple groups it's just human nature that one side is bound to be treated differently. From my perspective making them equal as possible is in the best interest of everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoy
It's simple to understand, If the personal variables aren't there then its obviously to be more equal. IMHO, it's backwards thinking when someone would defend an issue that can easily be abused like it already is. If no one defends this position then it promotes the right to unfairness. -
04-18-2012, 03:52 AMBelmonts
I really do disagree at any form of segregation, especially on a game that is supposed to bring a huge community together around the world.
But also I can understand when events legally can't be on the same countries because of the law restrictions. Honestly when our Japanese/European counterparts has a forum event with IRL rewards (like key-chains or such) there is not much we can do about it but respect their laws and yes, the events must be separated.
However, when the game does involve in-game events with in-game rewards only it is UNFAIR and UNEQUAL being shunned and just be able to watch and wonder wth is going on. If they are gonna do an in-game event that blatantly segregates players we have the right and we MUST complain about it. It is not a matter of having the same event afterwards. The Balance-Olympus A.K.A. the Dev. Team approved to be on the main servers it so what the heck... we should have the chance to be involved too!!
My humble opinion. -
04-18-2012, 08:21 AMAlhanelemThere's nothing wrong with my defense, nor am I conceeding to you. I simply didn't see the point in continuing. However, you seem to want to bait me back into this.Quote:
Seeing as you don't have a good defense
My position does not defy logic. It might defy what you agree with, but that doesn't make it illogical. Are we really going to have an argument about arguing? Why can't you lay the debate to rest, instead of picking at me further after I expressed my desire to end it? This is the very definition of trolling. If we've reached an impasse, it makes sense for both sides to stop, not for one to continue to pick the fight by insulting the other user as you have.Quote:
It defies logic
-
04-18-2012, 12:41 PMSarickI support this and root for anyone who thinks there should be regulations to ensure things are done right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmonts
I agree, here to. Game items are game items, not real world stuff. Also there are ways around a lot of these laws by attaching the in game items to real world items. They do it now with stuffed dolls etc. The SE Key is a fine example it gave users extra storage. The main thing I want to say here: Laws are there for a reason to protect people. I'm in defense of keeping things legal. If It can't be done in all regions because of laws perhaps something else should've been created in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmonts
Exactly... This is how I feel. Without regulation this allows abuse. The debate I've been having is that it isn't unimportant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belmonts
-
04-19-2012, 10:29 AMKluaf
Well I think its kinda shitty that everyone don't or cant experience everything. I believe we all paid the same subscription fees.