Reflect

lets give blu reflect

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Originally Posted by Zeroe

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

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Pretty much this - when are WE(the large portrion of your paying customers) going to get some talk time...

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2) The JP playerbase FAR exceeds the size of the NA playerbase. They are the majority, which is why their votes override ours.

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Link to this?

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Originally Posted by dragmagi

lets give blu reflect

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I don't know about this. However, mimic would fit the job perfectly.

I'd personally like more iconic spells, Mighty Guard!

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Originally Posted by Camate

Difficulties:

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself

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Old way to solve this in previous FF's was to cast Reflect on the enemy/mob and cast the spell you wanted to cast on yourself. This would in turn reflect the Cure spell back to you for example. I can see this being a problem for BLM's though.

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• Random reflection
In the case that the target is not decided, the system will search the area for monsters and decide. If this happens every time Reflect is activated, there is a high chance that it would cause a lot of lag and in the worst case scenario crash the servers.

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Perhaps a solution to this would be if there are no alliance or party claimed monsters, the "reflect" get's interrupted (similar to someone moving while casting a spell) as an example.

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• AoE Spell reflection
If we made Reflect function like Counter, this would be quite difficult.

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Just only allow reflect to activate on single-target attacks. Such as Fire IV, Fire V etc.

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• Effect animation
In the whole flow of the spell taking action: spell activates → reflect animation is displayed → reflected spell animation is displayed on yourself, this final part is impossible to do, and the best we can do is cut this animation and only display it in the log. Additionally, the animation needs to be in the memory, but there is a pending concern that the size would be pretty rough.

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Obviously I have no clue how your spagetti code is written, however perhaps removing the "spell on player" animation so it looks more like: Spell Activates > Reflect animation is displayed > Reflect animation is displayed on the monster.

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Stats
Besides the system itself, stats of the spell will need to be adjusted very carefully. Since you would be invincible against single-target spells as well as deal damage by reflecting them, this is an extremely powerful effect, so we would not be doing exactly this. We would need a good amount of time to test and balance this just right.

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From previous FF's, Reflect was certainly quite overpowered. If you kept your whole party reflected - as well as the monster, you would essentially be invincible to magic (as you said). If you needed to cast an elemental spell you would cast it on yourself, and it would reflect to the monster. If you needed to cast a cure spell you would cast it on the monster and it would reflect to yourself. If the monster casts a cure spell, it would reflect onto you, and finally if the monster were to cast a spell on you, it would reflect onto the monster... So yes in previous FF's it was overpowered.

A way to counter this would be have reflect similar to Blink - in which it has a *chance* to activate and is not 100%. Or quite simply, you cannot cast reflect on the monster, yet Cures are still reflected away from the person with reflect.

This is what i think reflect should do.

Defensive Reflect

- Most defensive Self/Single target spells (enhancing magic, healing magic) that are cast on the target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should be considered party AoE of about 10' max from the intended target for the same duration and potency of effect that was cast on the intended target.
- all defensive AoE spells (enhancing magic, healing magic) that are cast on the target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should receive the effect as if reflect was not on the intended target.

Offensive Reflect

-Most offensive single spells (Damaging Divine magic, Damaging Elemental magic) that are cast on the intended target that currently has the effect of reflect on them are reduced by a percentage depending on the enhancing magic skill or summoning skill of the Reflect's Caster. The reduced damage amount is reflected at the current engaged target or the caster of the offensive spell, depending on if the intended target is engaged or not. Any additional effects should not be reflected, just the damage.
-Most offensive AoE spells (Damaging Divine magic, Damaging Elemental magic) that are cast on all targets in range target that currently has the effect of reflect on them are reduced by a percentage depending on the enhancing magic skill or summoning skill of the Reflect's Caster. The reduced damage amount of only the intended target is reflected at the current engaged target or the caster of the offensive spell, depending on if the intended target is engaged or not. Any additional effects should not be reflected, just the damage.
- Any debuff (through non-damaging Divine magic, non-damaging enfeebling magic, non-damaging elemental magic) that are cast on the intended target that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should still receive the effect unless that effect would be immune on the caster.
- Any AoE debuff (through non-damaging Divine magic, non-damaging enfeebling magic, non-damaging elemental magic) that land on the targets that currently has the effect of reflect on them, should still receive the effect unless that effect would be immune on the caster.
-Most debuffs on a PC or NPC with the effect of reflect, should mirror most debuffs to current engaged target, unless the engaged target currently has the debuff, immune or resistant to the effect.

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Originally Posted by Krashport

Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.

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So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

Here's a poll for what English players think:
1. Type of Reflect, Reflect II
a) Reflect has 10% chance to activate, Reflect II has 25% chance to activate.
b) Reflect has 3 charges and activates 100%, Reflect II has 4 charges and activates 100%.

2. Job or jobs that should learn Reflect:
a) WHM
b) BLM
c) RDM
d) BLU
e) SCH

3. Should Reflect be available as a subjob spell?
a) No
b) Yes

4. How many tiers of the spell would be nice?
a) 1
b) 2
c) 3

5. Spellcasting range?
a) Yourself only
b) Any party member
c) Any player

6. Reflection method/methods?
a) Magic damage you would have recieved by an opponent.
b) Negative status effect you would have recieved by an opponent.
c) aoe spell that affects you, casted by opponent.
d) Spell casted on you by an ally.
e) aoe spell that an ally casted that affects you.
f) additional magic damage from melee attacks or other special attacks you would have recieved, such as Enfire or Blaze Spikes damage.

The more I think about unspecified targets the more I think it might be possible to just use an enmity list if there is no auto-attack target... in other words the spell would target whatever has the highest enmity... if there is no target with enmity on the player or the player isn't targeting a monster then the spell can say something along the lines of "Reflect failed to take effect" and fizzle. This might or might not be a viable solution but it would be an easy one for the players to understand.

Also if you can cast Reflect on a monster as well I think this will be the second greatest spell in FFXI history (right after 99999 damage Cures).

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Originally Posted by Keyln

So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

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Since this thread is based on "Reflect" I'm not going to go into much detail on the problems with Red Mage, If anything there is alot of posts under the Red Mage Forums, Therefore I will say it's pretty cool that FFXI might finally get Reflect! ^^

Edit; Me personally think this Spell/Ability should go to White Mage for sure.

First I agree with the idea of this spell only going to RDM only. I think in this game, it just seems right for them to have.

Second, I think an AoE version should be made exclusive to SMN, say in the form of a Carbuncle blood pact (I believe he's had that in past FF games).

Finally, make duration and max spells reflected tied to enhancing magic if you're going to do it.

And before the inevitable is mentioned, I'm fully aware I don't have the job leveled, but I've been around enough great mages in my 7+ years of playing this game and playing every other FF game up until this one many times through to have a good enough understanding to make a comment.

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Originally Posted by Keyln

So...the problem with RDM is...what exactly?

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It's a dead job <.<

Literally ... it has nothing at 99 that isn't done better by someone else. Even the multi-role nature of RDM can be better done by BLU and DNC. SE has not only completely ignored the job, but they've gone out of their way to make all NM's immune to enfeebles or have potency reduction. SE's doesn't want another Avesta, so RDM is not broken, its dead.

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Originally Posted by Nervosa

This should be on Aegis

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Yeah that would be great when fighting a mob that absorbs the type of damage that it casts. >.>

Personally I would imagine this becoming a %chance to reflect, rather than 100%, or even a fading effect. 100% chance fading to 20% over time.

I find it funny that this has already been talked about around 2005/2006 on the forums FFXI considered as affiliates. But it is nice that SE at least only takes 5-10 years per suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Krashport

Edit; Me personally think this Spell/Ability should go to White Mage for sure.

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Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/...91_ahHYt-M.jpg

A lot of the complexity in how this effect would work can be solved just by ignoring how this worked in FF console games and simplifying things. This whole "reflect a reflect" nonsense, inability to cast cures on members, etc. is too much complexity.

Make reflect work to only reflect spells cast by foes back to the foe that cast it. In order to not have it overpowered, reflect should not be 100% but have a % chance determined by the enhancing skill of the caster compared to some stat of the foe. For weak mobs, the effect % could be quite high. For though NM's, the % would be lower. For AOE spells, only the target of the spell would reflect back to the mob although others in AOE range would have the same chance to mitigate the effect of the spell (misses you but you don't reflect the spell - only the target does).

Having a % proc rate would also open the door to specific gear enhancements that can improve this or job traits that add to this effect (for example, give the spell to many mage jobs but give some jobs trait that improve the reflect rate) or merit categories that improve the effect.

Could code it so it only reflect black magic. Idk if that would cause to much of an issue. But I thought I'd throw that out there.

It could just reflect magic back to your current <bt>

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/...91_ahHYt-M.jpg

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omg... Don't punch that box of Kittens, Those are so cute and it's just wrong!! o.O;

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

Why do you hate kittens?
http://www.modernstills.com/Animals/...91_ahHYt-M.jpg

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I can imagine it now:

"Aw, you're so cute. I'll name you all 'Tiger'!




































































[SIZE="7"]TIGER UPPERCUT!"[/SIZE]

Okay I haven't read a lot of the thread, but I remember talking about similar effects in another thread, and I have my own proposition that might make the whole Reflect difficulties a bit easier to handle similar to the one from the other thread:

1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently). Maybe like 1~3 spells to prevent it from being OP? Or more, but would require a longer recast time because monsters only cast spells so often unless under Chainspell/Manafont.
3) For limitations, reflecting spells would be limited to player-only spells to avoid stuff like Death and certain -gas from being countered. This would provide some aspect of balance.
4) For AoE spells, the original target is the only Reflect that will activate; if a party with Reflect on is hit by an AoE spell, the original target will use up one "use" of Reflect (see #2) while the spell is negated for the rest of the party. An AoE spell reflected will hit the target that cast it and any eligible mobs around it (example: during Voidwatch, you won't hit non-VW mobs nearby).
5) For damage/effectiveness of reflected spells, I'd say make it based on the player's stats, if that's not too complicated. Simply put that would prevent this from becoming overpowered while staying a viable defensive strategy. A melee with mediocre magical stats wouldn't reflect much damage, but would be protected from spells to an extent, while a mage who might get hit in the backline or even in front (the RDMs that do melee, or a WHM or SCH running in to AoE a buff like Protectra or Stoneskin-ga) can reflect it with more potency.


And to cover the issues that were given:

Reflecting Spells Cast On You

I suggest that player-originating spells ignore Reflect, simply because we normally cannot nuke/enfeeble/etc each other during battle. However, we wouldn't want Cures, etc to be bounced back at the user when a melee is nearly dead from physical attacks, because that would make this a very weak spell to use unless you have a tank who can turtle up enough to take hits until Reflect wears/is canceled.

Random reflection and AoE Spell reflection

Don't make reflection random, then. Have a reflected spell hit the target that cast it. Single-target spells will only affect the one who cast, but AoE spells will hit all eligible targets within range of the original caster (See #4, above). This includes debuffs as well as elemental spells, and with being limited to player-only spells, still requires that the mages be on their toes to handle certain situations (-ga debuffs, etc).

Effect animation

For this I'd recommend a simple shimmer effect (if possible) on the character who is being targeted, and the actual spell animation removed from the players. Since it would only be "targeting" one character with AoE damage hitting those around him, only the targeted character would need this effect, reducing lag on the server. Follow this by the spell animation being cast on the original caster, and in the chatlog something like:

"Monster A casts Fire IV."
"Reflect! Monster A takes X points of damage."

Stats

I can see the issue with this, hence why I made a limiter as above (see #2), which along with a decently long recast time (I'd say... 1:00~1:30, perhaps? I don't recall off the top of my head the average time difference between monsters casting spells, but it should be within 3~5 of their spells to be balanced, I think) would probably balance out this spell enough to make it potentially effective if used properly without making it overpowered.

And to mention stats, the damage of the reflected spell, as I suggested above in #5, should be based on the target that is reflecting the spell. If your character has low INT/elemental skill, your reflection of a nuke isn't going to be very potent, but you're still protected from it, giving you a defensive option without overpowering the damage on it. Mages, on the other hand, could make more potent use of the reflected spells, but would put themselves in danger if they're on the frontline with melee so it's more of a protection against backline nukes.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Difficulties:

• Reflecting spells you cast on yourself

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Well, Shadows from utsusemi don't absorb incoming buff's or heal's. Are we not looking at the same thing just with an added effect of returning the spell? Of course this idea goes along the line's of making it like a utsusemi/Blink style spell. Which just seem's to make more sense.

Having it as a constant effect with a chance to reflect doesn't sound bad, but. I see something like that being another gear set build by adding % into the mix to up your chance to have the effect trigger. And the last thing any one needs is another build that take's up precious inventory space.

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Originally Posted by Zeroe

Although I would like to see reflect implemented, I feel the American Base is being ignored when we suggest something. We cry over horrid drop rates, complain 2 hours need a adjustment for jobs, and weapon skills that need buffed. But when JP wants feedback about reflect, they actually get it. >.>

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Over on Tera Americans complained about mobs respawning in 20 seconds.

20. Seconds.

I would ignore that player base too lol, but seriously, this is a Japanese company with a Japanese development team. Do you really think American based companies go out of their way to listen to chinese or french players? I can bet you the grand majority don't.

Camate, this is VERY encouraging news. I am frankly stunned to even see a mention of a possibly interesting spell addition these days on the board from the reps. When I saw it on the dev tracker list I got very warm inside, and it has ALMOST washed the horrible taste of Gravity II from my mouth.

I haven't played in months but I'd come back for a couple months to try this spell in every possible event. That is, if it goes to RDM or SCH. I wouldn't be mad if SMN got it, but I wouldn't really care about it either. I'd be infuriated if it went to WHM. Infuriated. Mad. Horrified. That kitten-punching dude would have a partner.

As far as the implementation, I'd be disappointed if it turned into a cycle spell. I see this happening if it is a long lasting buff with a random firing chance, like Blink, and didn't reflect friendly spells. You can keep the immunity to friendly spells, but as another poster mentioned, I'd like to see it work like stun, with a 100% activation rate, instant-cast, long recast and very short duration. Rather than maintaining another cycle on RDM, I'd like it to require paying close attention and be coordinated with stuns. I'll second the nomination for a Runic ability for RDM too with a similar behavior.

Also, through gear, merits or whatever, I'd like to see an effect from FFIX, where a reflected spell would be more powerful that the original when reflected back to the caster. This would give me some reason to really care about using Reflect rather than stun.

In the end I just want this to be a useful, worthwhile spell addition with interesting applications, and for it to go to a job that actually needs something now.

I like the idea of a fast cast, long recast reflect spell, where it reflects the next spell... kind of a quick thing you could just throw up... I like this for RDM. It might be funny for a RDM to use Chainspell-Reflect instead of Chainspell-Stun...

I also like, additionally, the idea of a "Auto-Reflect" job trait, where there is a ~5-10% chance to Reflect a spell...

As for animations, I think there should be some "transition" in the effect...

Monster cast animation > Shield type animation on the Reflecting character appears briefly > spell effect displays on casting monster.

Here's a question though... Will Dispel remove Reflect, or will it get Reflected?

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

1) Reflect would be a single-target cast on any individual, can be made AoE by Accession.
2) Reflect would counter up to X number of spells, where X is based on your Enhancing Skill (meaning that RDM, with higher Enhancing, would rock this, but WHM and SCH could still get access and use it competently).

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Rdm and Sch both have B+ enhancing magic and as for gear rdm has a with Duelist's hands +2, and Estoqueur's feet +2, cap = +24(slot with competition the competition is subtracted to show the lead it has over sch)
Sch has Savant's Bonnet +2 and Treatise Kirin's Pole(+10 aug)= +24(slots without competition that a rdm can use)
You can get a total of 505 enhancing magic (unless i missed a piece of gear) on both jobs. meaning 1 is not better then the other unless you account for sch having the power to double duration of the effects and make the spell AoE :)

On the assumption of no inventory limits for this, RDM can go with:

Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
Head: Zenith Crown +1 (+8 with good augment)
Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
Body: Duelist's Tabard +2 (+15)
Hands: Duelist's Gloves +2 (+18)
Back: Estoqueur's Cape (+6)
Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
Legs: Portent Pants or Warlock's Tights/+1 (+15)
Feet: Estoqueur's Houseaux +2 (+15)
Total: +95

Versus SCH:

Main: Kirin's Pole (+12 w/ good augment)
Sub: Fulcio Grip (+3)
Ammo: Savant's Treatise (+4)
Head: Savant's Bonnet +2 (+10)
Neck: Colossus or Enhancing Torque (+7)
Ears: Augmenting Earring (+3)
Body: Anhur Robe (+12)
Hands: Augur's Gloves (+5)
Back: Merciful Cape (+5)
Waist: Olympus Sash (+5)
Legs: Portent Pants (+15)
Feet: Rubeus Boots (+10)
Total: +91

RDM does pull a little ahead, but I acknowledge your point on that.

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Originally Posted by Krashport

Ok, well back in the day RDM was known for refresh A.k.a The refresh-whore if by chance RDM does get Reflect it will not make or break the Job.. RDM needs more then Reflect-whore, Just seems like a lot "Not all" Thinking this spell and or ability whatever it is going to be going to fix RDM. Me personally don't think it's really needed fun yeah! but not needed.. Also it's not going to help RDM any. Yeah it's pretty cool seeing this might finally come to FFXI but that's about it, If anything I bet PUP automaton will get it then we all wait for RDM to get Reflect II.

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okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also...

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Originally Posted by Kensagaku

On the assumption of no inventory limits for this

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There are varying amounts of difficulty to reach the magic 500 mark but Red Mage, White Mage and Scholar can all reach the cap. Paladin and Black Mage can reach something a little over 460 with the right subjob.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

okay, so...what does this have to do with BLM? Also...

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I came to really think about blm with Reflect, It wouldn't work.. I think cause BLM has Mana-wall, as it is kinda like a Reflect but the Magical and Physical Damage goes into the BLMs mp pool not back at the target.

Reflect Magical Damage > Target.
BLM - Mana-Wall Magical and Physical> MP Pool.
RDM has Phalanx and a very strong Stoneskin.
PLD has Phalanx and Reprisal.
SCH has a lot of pieces from other Jobs.
This being said leading us back to White Mage and maybe to some of the "New" Avatars.

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Originally Posted by Luvbunny

They did listen to the VW complaints and gave us tickets, they did listen to WoE and try their hardest to tweak it to become more popular, they did listen to puppet master and tweaked the job, etc...

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No they did not listen, they adressed it here after it was brought up in the JP forums.

How much easier do you want this game?

There has been no need for such a spell for 75 hnm's or endgame. Which was alot harder than it is now. Yet people still managed to win everything.

Even if this did come into the game the only job which should get it is paladin as now all paladin do is sub war, so there is no way they can avoid magic damage.

But this request is just another casual player moaning yet again.

GJ guys.

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Originally Posted by Yambo99

How much easier do you want this game?

There has been no need for such a spell for 75 hnm's or endgame. Which was alot harder than it is now. Yet people still managed to win everything.

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Give the players more tools. Give upcoming monsters properties that promote competent use of those extra tools and punish incompetent use. It's more challenging to need to mash five buttons to succeed rather than four.

Yeah, I know the Development Bros are going to just continue adding relatively squishy sacks of HP that scream "AOE ALL THE THINGS FOR MODERATE TO HIGH DAMAGE!" and proceed to do so, but it's nice to dream.

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Originally Posted by Tesahade

Rdm and Sch both have B+ enhancing magic and as for gear rdm has a with Duelist's hands +2, and Estoqueur's feet +2, cap = +24(slot with competition the competition is subtracted to show the lead it has over sch)
Sch has Savant's Bonnet +2 and Treatise Kirin's Pole(+10 aug)= +24(slots without competition that a rdm can use)
You can get a total of 505 enhancing magic (unless i missed a piece of gear) on both jobs. meaning 1 is not better then the other unless you account for sch having the power to double duration of the effects and make the spell AoE :)

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Technically they don't. RDM has B+ and SCH and any other /SCH job gains B+ skill only under a JA. RDM is still technically they job with higest Enhancing as it's guaranteed.

Change arts and goodbye skill.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Technically they don't. RDM has B+ and SCH and any other /SCH job gains B+ skill only under a JA. RDM is still technically they job with higest Enhancing as it's guaranteed.

Change arts and goodbye skill.

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I only seem to get 386 skill with /sch and B+ is 420(with full enhancing merits). Also as a Sch i never find myself casting enhancing magic without lights arts and absolutely never with dark arts up. Having the right arts up has yet to be a problem since i started the job so not sure i'm understanding your point.
Sch has B+ when it needs it so Rdm who has it all the time is better?
They both have it when they need it so they are on even footing other then the lead of +4 enhancing magic, that Kensagaku pointed out, Rdm has(515) over Sch(511)

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Originally Posted by Tesahade

I only seem to get 386 skill with /sch and B+ is 420(with full enhancing merits). Also as a Sch i never find myself casting enhancing magic without lights arts and absolutely never with dark arts up. Having the right arts up has yet to be a problem since i started the job so not sure i'm understanding your point.
Sch has B+ when it needs it so Rdm who has it all the time is better?
They both have it when they need it so they are on even footing other then the lead of +4 enhancing magic, that Kensagaku pointed out, Rdm has(515) over Sch(511)

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My point is SCH doesn't technically have it, they have D skill Enhancing. A JA changes that temporarily. There is times when you go Light Arts > Spell > Dark Arts > Wears off > Light arts recast: 0:30 it's not 100% reliable enhancing so as I said, not Natural B+ enhancing.

As for the 386 skill, not sure but isn't that because you're Enhancing isn't capped for the main job?

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

My point is SCH doesn't technically have it, they have D skill Enhancing. A JA changes that temporarily. There is times when you go Light Arts > Spell > Dark Arts > Wears off > Light arts recast: 0:30 it's not 100% reliable enhancing so as I said, not Natural B+ enhancing.

As for the 386 skill, not sure but isn't that because you're Enhancing isn't capped for the main job?

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and still B+ Skill is B+ skill is B+ skill. I wouldn't cast a spell with such an effect under dark arts if it's gonna end up with enhancing skill modifying the spell, especially not if I am in buffing mode anyway.

Technically a SCH has B+ whenever he wants it by using LA. So technically SCH has B+. my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Crossarius

and still B+ Skill is B+ skill is B+ skill. I wouldn't cast a spell with such an effect under dark arts if it's gonna end up with enhancing skill modifying the spell, especially not if I am in buffing mode anyway.

Technically a SCH has B+ whenever he wants it by using LA. So technically SCH has B+. my two cents.

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The same is true as I said of any job /SCH (AKA. WHM)

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

The same is true as I said of any job /SCH (AKA. WHM)

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:o you know what you just said means WHM/SCH > RDM/whatever > SCH/whatever is the enhancing magic order
whm can get +98 from gear rdm +95 and sch +91 interesting

not that a whm/sch has much to give in enhancing magics that are connected to skill

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Originally Posted by Tesahade

:o you know what you just said means WHM/SCH > RDM/whatever > SCH/whatever is the enhancing magic order
whm can get +98 from gear rdm +95 and sch +91 interesting

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Yup! Ever since SCH was added this has been the case.