[dev1087] Job Adjustments: White Mage

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please keep in mind that Araise will be extremely difficult to obtain. As such, it is highly unlikely that every white mage will learn Araise.

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It seems like that's what all new content is now. When do we start getting content again that the average player is expected to be able to do?

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

I say to you, why? Why should you be so concerned that the elitist scum of this game rejects you from their precious groups? You should be thankful that you don't have [insert spell/weapon/armor here].

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If their strategy is build around dying odds are they suck too.

Point 1. It will definitely become a "must have" spell for WHM because that's simply how the player base is. When something that will essentially make every fight in the game faster (-2 mins of weakness), players will become used to having this and make it as a part of their strategy. It happens all the time, with everything in this game. X item is released, everyone thinks X is too hard, and only some people will get it. People get X, and parties start to get used to people with it, so people without it aren't considered good players any more. Give it a few months, tops. It happened when Abyssea was released with Empys and AF+2 (ON SPECULATION purely, people assumed that most of the "normal players" would never get +2 or Empys, but look at what is considered "good" nowadays- i.e. VW shouts that say "Emp DDs only".)

Point 2. I'm glad this is going to happen. If its a scroll, I'm selling it. It means that since I leveled my WHM in Abyssea and am 99% of the time forced to play that job in shout groups & LS events, both of those groups will want a WHM who does have Arise. I would much rather have someone else healing me so that I can play a job that I like, not just one that I'm good at. In short, glad its going to be hard because this means that the people who do like WHM and want to be the best they can be will have something that is preferred and to be able to gloat about.

First of all:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

If their strategy is build around dying odds are they suck too.

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This, for the love of god, this.

Strategies shouldn't depend on deaths/'lower' weakness timers, anyway. That alone is doing it wrong. The point is to avoid it altogether -that's kinda the point of bringing WHM in the first place, to avoid deaths by having proper healing. However, deaths will happen no matter what, stuff happens sometimes that even the most skilled White Mages may not be able to deal with entirely.

Singling out a White Mage that doesn't have this spell is stupid in my opinion. I can understand things like Erase back in the day, and I understood lack of Raise III when people actually had to.... GASP .... work for experience points, nowadays, it's just an extra Raise spell as exp loss is meaningless in 2012. Will you want a WHM with Arise (I don't care if it's Araise, I'm calling it Arise because it makes more sense)? Of course. Refusing to bring one because they don't have it... I'd rather not go, anyway. I already view it as a "niche" spell. I'd be more upset if a White Mage didn't have status removal spells (I've seen some level 99 White Mages use a Cursna scroll..............), or even their top tier cures. That is worth not letting one into your group.

And as Camate mentioned, Arise is going to have a longer recast timer than the other Raises. For example, say you're recovering from a full wipe... the point of doing that is to recover as fast as possible, and that means using all of your raise spells as recast timers permit. If anyone asks for Arise only, they'll just delay the group, as relying on Arise alone to do that in a situation like that only wastes more time, whereas using all of your raise spells will recover people "faster" in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please keep in mind that Araise will be extremely difficult to obtain. As such, it is highly unlikely that every white mage will learn Araise. Also, we plan on making the MP consumed higher and recast timers longer compared to Raise, although we are still in the development stage. With that in mind, although Araise does have the advantage of a shorter weakened state, Araise will never serve as an almighty spell that renders all other spells useless.

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First of all, I like that it's going to be difficult, kinda like a status symbol, if you will. I can already read this and expect Meteor to get the same treatment on Black Mage, but alas, that's a different topic altogether.

Secondly, as other White Mages are curious of, why is it called "Araise"? "Arise" makes more sense and sounds better. I'd like to know the development team's reasoning beyond the naming.

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

First of all, I like that it's going to be difficult, kinda like a status symbol, if you will.

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Status symbols are worthless if they aren't useful. I really hope they don't nerf this to appease the "we want it to be easy to get because it is a scroll" crowd. I'm pretty sure they're dead set on making it harder to get compared to other scrolls and that's not bad, but it won't be good if the spell sucks as a result. Either make it worth the effort to get it or don't bother.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Status symbols are worthless if they aren't useful.

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Objective worth, sure. Subjective worth you can't judge. Some people are just in it for the rarity or completion, and to them it would be a valuable item, regardless of its effect.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Objective worth, sure. Subjective worth you can't judge. Some people are just in it for the rarity or completion, and to them it would be a valuable item, regardless of its effect.

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This

Some things people just want to have a challenge to get, and when it comes to scrolls there aren't very many rare scrolls in this game. Some people just like to have a challenge, and Arise is just a perk spell so I'm perfectly fine with it being rare.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

This

Some things people just want to have a challenge to get, and when it comes to scrolls there aren't very many rare scrolls in this game. Some people just like to have a challenge, and Arise is just a perk spell so I'm perfectly fine with it being rare.

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I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

If there are a series of exploration quests needed, well and good. Requiring a series of HNM drops or making it a sub-1% drop from one is a bridge too far. But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

First of all, I like that it's going to be difficult, kinda like a status symbol, if you will. I can already read this and expect Meteor to get the same treatment on Black Mage, but alas, that's a different topic altogether

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A status symbol? Do you really care that much about what a bunch of game/anime/computer/sci-fi nerds from across the globe (like me) think of you that you'd put yourself through potentially years of crap just to have something to show off to them? Are your friends going to think more of you if you have it or less of you if you don't?

Sorry if I'm being mean, but it's this whole "status symbol in a video game" mentality that ends up making games like this not nearly as fun as they should be.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

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I could describe you with one word: idiot. But wait, there's more! It's not just a random insult because I'm butthurt (like several of your posts), I actually have a good argument to back up my statement:

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Originally Posted by Hayward

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

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That's the argument: you admit it yourself. You admit that you're incapable of following our thought processes. Since our thought process is as simple as "I like it", it speaks volumes of your mental capacity, or rather lack thereof.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

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I know you doubt it, again, because you're an idiot. You don't seem to understand that there's more than black and white, that there is no such thing as "master Tanaka". People love to scream white knight on here when anyone is saying anything that contradicts their opinion, those people are usually the ones too stupid to realize that it's just what it is, an opinion.

Let me ask you a question, though. Have you ever played a single-player game? If so, did you beat it? If yes, why? What did you get from it? The end boss didn't drop an amazing item you wanted, right? Obviously, because the game was over then. So why do it? Maybe for the accomplishment?

You'll argue that this is different because of some retarded reason, but it's not, it's the exact same thing. Why do you think people are doing WotG missions? To get that horribly broken earring at the end? Fuck no, they're doing it to have it finished, because that's part of the game, getting achievements.

Let me ask you another question. Assume you get the ultimate end item in the game (a weapon with 5 delay and 999 damage, for example). Now what? Are you done with the game? Are you gonna quit? Or help everyone else to get it so you can all quit together? Is items and gear really the only thing you're striving for? What for? What's the ultimate purpose? Because it's an achievement. The exact same thing we're asking for.

Regardless, the fact is you simply cannot understand other peoples' motivation to play the game. You insult everyone who disagrees with you, and even worse, you accuse them of "team Tanaka", because obviously everyone who disagrees with your divine opinion is a soulless creature who wants to devour the game. You're arrogant, assuming your opinion is worth more than others', and ignorant, not realizing your mistakes and not even your own incompetence, and that's one of the worst combinations of human characteristics one can have.

Are you people serious about making everything so difficult to obtain? It's magic. Magic was never this difficult to obtain until the post-Abyssea team started making Final Fantasy XI: The Time Sink Edition. Even pre-Abyssea magic wasn't that hard to get. The base function of a job--magic for magic casters--shouldn't be something we need to sell our souls to obtain.

At first I thought the player's statement about Araise being detrimental to white mages was silly. Then I read your response to that.

I don't think Araise will be all that beneficial. Exp is easy to obtain, so people can keep popping Reraise I scrolls and earring charges. I see the weakness duration benefit but I'm not sure how beneficial that will be if everyone is dying five times over in three minutes. Plus, without being AOE, Araise would just take too much time and MP to be practical. If you're trying to cut weakness duration on your only tank, chances are everyone else is going to be too dead to care anyways. And of course Araise will have little value in Abyssea where we have Atma of the Apocalypse anyways. You can argue that it could free up an Atma slot, but Apoc has it's other advantages and is always active. No need for recasts from a white mage who could very well be dead too.

Well I'd hope this scroll is useful beyond just being a status symbol. I don't mind the people who want a status symbol, I honestly just want another small way to push my advantage over White Mages who just level it to fill the slot or have the job as third or fifth priority. It isn't any one thing (like this scroll) that makes a White Mage better at their job then another once both are playing competently, but rather a large number of small things adding up, like having the right sub, having the right gear for the situation, having a good barspell set, having all your skills leveled (even melee skills), and so on.

It will already have limited usefulness because a good group will have a strategy that doesn't revolve around dying repeatedly. The only place where this scroll will make a major difference is in large party wipe situations due to the extra timer and lowman.

Honestly, if you are worried about this scroll making or breaking your inclusion from a group, it won't unless you don't have all the other small things set up. Now the question is, will this be worth the effort? Until we know how SE plans to include this in the game and what the official MP, casting time, and recasting time stats are, we don't know. If it is a quest as long as Sleepga II, it will probably be worth the effort. If it is a drop from Voidwatch or Walk of Echoes it will be less then one million gil in six months. If it is a super rare drop from some event it might be expensive and hard to get. Honestly I'm secretly hoping it is a quested WHM-only fight that gives a R/E scroll for clearing it that involves clubbing down some blunt weak monster... it could either be a solo fight or a party fight but the jobs selection would be restricted for a Final Fantasy I tribute. :p

And if it is a BCNM fight that requires 60 or so of an item and has the same drop rate as a Kraken Club and nothing else of value drops from the same fight SE hates us and I will not be happy because this quote,

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However, the development team would like to grant players more opportunities to obtain it.

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was not what happened with the freaking Kraken Club.

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Originally Posted by Purrs

Are you people serious about making everything so difficult to obtain? It's magic. Magic was never this difficult to obtain until the post-Abyssea team started making Final Fantasy XI: The Time Sink Edition.

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Raise III, Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni, Phalanx, Sleepga II, Mage's Ballad I, Army's Paeon V, select Recall/Teleport scrolls, Warp II, Retrace. All of these spells are over 500k to buy from the AH (although only 2-3 of these are over 1M). I don't know if this means they're hard to obtain by everyone's standards but by mine anything over 500k is something I will try to avoid buying due to militant frugality (plus obtaining something for yourself rather then paying for it has a special something to it). I only buy big ticket items if I've failed to get it myself and it is worth the price. And honestly, I don't expect Arise to be over 1M unless it is worth the price or incredibly rare.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Status symbols are worthless if they aren't useful. I really hope they don't nerf this to appease the "we want it to be easy to get because it is a scroll" crowd. I'm pretty sure they're dead set on making it harder to get compared to other scrolls and that's not bad, but it won't be good if the spell sucks as a result. Either make it worth the effort to get it or don't bother.

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Yeah, I agree. It needs to be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

A status symbol? Do you really care that much about what a bunch of game/anime/computer/sci-fi nerds from across the globe (like me) think of you that you'd put yourself through potentially years of crap just to have something to show off to them? Are your friends going to think more of you if you have it or less of you if you don't?

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I'll adjust my opinion a bit on this as I've thought about it more.

I suppose the afterglow r/m/e weapons are meant to be "status symbols" - heck, they aren't even worth the trouble to get, most people will get the level 99 stage 1 forms and call it a day, if even that.

Arise shouldn't be THAT difficult to obtain, but I do like a challenge in questing magic. SE's view on magic has definitely changed post-abyssea to what it was to an extent pre-abyssea, thinking every higher level spell should have some sort of difficulty with obtaining ("Spells are set so that only the people who really want the spells will get it" etcetra). Goes without saying they want the highest level magic to be harder to get, I just hope they don't overdo it.

We saw this with Abyssea - nowadays every spell takes practically no effort to get 76-90, and they're really cheap on the AH. For those in a rush back then, most/if not all of the spells were available from a NPC. Nowadays, it's been Voidwatch, KC/HKCNMs, or Walk of Echoes to get 90+ magic spells.

Say Black Mage spells for example: I know higher level Black Mages without Warp II... that's just sheer laziness (quest wasn't even hard tbh). Sleepga II is a rough quest, that I understand.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Raise III, Utsusemi: Ichi/Ni, Phalanx, Sleepga II, Mage's Ballad I, Army's Paeon V, select Recall/Teleport scrolls, Warp II, Retrace. All of these spells are over 500k to buy from the AH (although only 2-3 of these are over 1M). I don't know if this means they're hard to obtain by everyone's standards but by mine anything over 500k is something I will try to avoid buying due to militant frugality (plus obtaining something for yourself rather then paying for it has a special something to it). I only buy big ticket items if I've failed to get it myself and it is worth the price. And honestly, I don't expect Arise to be over 1M unless it is worth the price or incredibly rare.

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Except .... most of those are quest-able or easily obtainable through a BC fight. Their only expensive because the quest ones are one time obtain only and people don't like to both with level capped BC fights anymore. I Paid zero for my Utsusemi scroll, which is far less then 500K.

Making this a quest spell would be fine, even if it's a long involved quest that has multiple "wait till JP midnight / conquest tally", eventually the aspiring WHM will obtain it. Making it a 0.01% drop off a Fight that you'll only do once per week is beyond ridiculous. I only mention that last part because SE said various things wouldn't require "The very best" gear to obtain and would be obtaining by "the majority of players" and we saw how that turned out. Imagine if they actually wanted to make something obtainable to "only a select few" and "extremely difficult". I'm looking at rank 1 mogbanaza type rare when they say that (as in only a few per server).

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Originally Posted by Hayward

I can describe this argument in one word: GARBAGE.

This obsession with rarity--in a video game, mind you--for the sake of status has always been ridiculous in my view. Why S-E (or, more specifically, team Tanaka) continues to cater to clowns who get off on looking down on people who aren't as "hardcore" as they are is beyond my understading at this point.

If there are a series of exploration quests needed, well and good. Requiring a series of HNM drops or making it a sub-1% drop from one is a bridge too far. But I doubt this point will sink into the heads of those who see themselves as a 10th-degree Black Belt in FFXI and disciples of Matser Tanaka.

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I'm a helpful and kind person, so I'm not going to trash your post. I will however give you my reason as to why I want rare scrolls, regardless if you think my opinion is garbage or not.

I am not apart of team Tanaka, nor do I agree with the way the game has been going. That is my opinion, and I'm allowed to have one. I for one believe that people around the world enjoy collecting rare items because they enjoy doing it more than actually owning it. It might be an investment, it might be for fun, regardless of the reasons behind doing so, they enjoy doing it.

Just because this is a virtual world does not make people immune to this desire.

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.
2. You deny the above, and play from scratch working your way up to gearing your character and each job class you wish to be.

#1, I believe most players now wish this happened. If anything takes longer than a few hours to do they get furious, no matter what it is.

#2, I do not believe most players today would choose this, even though it would be my choice today. I absolutely hate leveling, but I don't believe I should have access to a job if I don't work at it. I don't want things handed to me, period.

You probably are someone who wants something handed to them, and you are allowed to feel that way. I do not, and I play this game to spend time with my friends and tackle on the challenges in this game (with the 6 hours a week I have to play). I do not show off, I don't have a town set, I don't look down on others just because their gear does not compare to what I own. I have had only one role model in this game that I looked up to and try to make my WHM like theirs. I have only been WHM in this game since day one and I am fine with this.

I am satisfied with where my WHM is today, but that doesn't mean I don't want a challenge. I could go after Yagrush but honestly I'd rather spend that time helping my friends than using it all for myself. I have no desire to have some fancy gear set that no one else has just to look cool, I just want to work for the armor I want. I stopped leveling my WHM just so I could have a Nobles Tunic, and I stopped leveling for a very long time. I had to save up 13,450,000 gil way back in the day, and loved that body. I worked for it and earned it, I didn't get it just to show it off to others so I could look down on them. I did it because I wanted to make my job better, and it took me more than a month to do so with my limited play time. I kept that body for years, and sold it back for 300k so I could buy an Aristocrats for 1.8 mil. I have no regrets for putting that work into it, and if I could of done it over again I would of because I had fun doing it.

There are people who just want to have some challenge in this game, I personally do not think time sinks are challenges. I think SE doesn't know how to make this game more challenging, so all they know how to do is make crazy long time sinks. Just look at the Part 2 of relic trials, just ridiculous. I read somewhere that it would take you 2.5 - 12.5 times the amount of the maximum gil cap just to buy enough to finish the trial. SE, just wtf?

I appreciate the counter argument, but I think your mind isn't in the right place. People are going to want to have challenges in video games to obtain rare items because they enjoy the journey there. There are going to be people who want to get them to show them off and look down on you, but they are probably 16 years old anyways, and if not then they sure are acting like it.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.

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Except it is a 96.99% drop Claustrum, 3% Farsha, and .01% drop of something else every month.

Anyways, I seriously think people shouldn't worry too much about it being hard to get. It might be a challenge but I seriously doubt they'll pull something that is stupid like tying it to a .01% drop rate on a fight you can only do once per real life day or marrying it to a relic or mythic weapon. One thing I could see them making it one of the rewards for say, doing the Cait Sith BCNM whenever they get around to adding that - it would be hard to get because I'm assuming we'll need to have finished all of the WotG missions. Until we have acquisition information I don't think we should be too harsh aside from the standard opinions we give on this stuff.

They should've just made it an ability with a cooldown rather than it's own separate spell.

I'd vote they drop Araise (Arise) and replace it with the spell the Galka WHM general in campaign can cast.

Removes weakness from target. I'd agree on extreme difficulty to obtain on this one ;p

In all honesty though, I do have to wonder what their idea of "extremely difficult to obtain" would be. I can't imagine it being quest based. Luxury spells are all well and good in my opinion, I like having something to work toward that sets me apart from the ones who play a job as a last resort, but damn it make it something that has some bang to it.
Here's where it gets tricky though, what kind of "luxury" spell gives that wow effect without making it almost mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Zigfreid

I'd vote they drop Araise (Arise) and replace it with the spell the Galka WHM general in campaign can cast.

Removes weakness from target. I'd agree on extreme difficulty to obtain on this one ;p

In all honesty though, I do have to wonder what their idea of "extremely difficult to obtain" would be. I can't imagine it being quest based. Luxury spells are all well and good in my opinion, I like having something to work toward that sets me apart from the ones who play a job as a last resort, but damn it make it something that has some bang to it.
Here's where it gets tricky though, what kind of "luxury" spell gives that wow effect without making it almost mandatory.

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I'd agree on non-existent on that one. Though I would add a ~30 minute JA to do it.

I'd put money on something to do with Legion, maybe you need to kill a set amount to pop a big boss that it'd drop from.

If they ever added spells to Mythic's they should be OP, or not at all.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Let's say you have two options when you create a character:

1. The game asks you if you want all your jobs at level 99 and a bunch of nice gear to start your character off, while you recieve a random relic/mythic/empy once a month just for paying the subscription cost.
2. You deny the above, and play from scratch working your way up to gearing your character and each job class you wish to be.

#1, I believe most players now wish this happened. If anything takes longer than a few hours to do they get furious, no matter what it is.

#2, I do not believe most players today would choose this, even though it would be my choice today. I absolutely hate leveling, but I don't believe I should have access to a job if I don't work at it. I don't want things handed to me, period.

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I haven't seen anyone asking for #1 and you thinking that they are is just absurd. I see people use this argument a lot, and it's always ridiculous. You are aware there are many levels of difficulty in between "everything handed to you" and "extremely difficult to obtain" are you not? Your #1 and #2 options don't seem to indicate that you are.

Just because someone doesn't want a spell to be "extremely difficult to obtain" doesn't mean they don't want a challenge. It doesn't mean they want things handed to them. Just because someone doesn't choose "Nightmare" difficulty in a video game doesn't mean they want to Game Shark their way through it.

Remember this is SE here. The last time I heard them talk out loud about things being "extremely difficult to obtain" was when relics were introduced. Is it really so terrible that people want to make sure a spell isn't in the same category as an at 75 cap relic?

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Originally Posted by Camiie

I haven't seen anyone asking for #1 and you thinking that they are is just absurd. I see people use this argument a lot, and it's always ridiculous. You are aware there are many levels of difficulty in between "everything handed to you" and "extremely difficult to obtain" are you not? Your #1 and #2 options don't seem to indicate that you are.

Just because someone doesn't want a spell to be "extremely difficult to obtain" doesn't mean they don't want a challenge. It doesn't mean they want things handed to them. Just because someone doesn't choose "Nightmare" difficulty in a video game doesn't mean they want to Game Shark their way through it.

Remember this is SE here. The last time I heard them talk out loud about things being "extremely difficult to obtain" was when relics were introduced. Is it really so terrible that people want to make sure a spell isn't in the same category as an at 75 cap relic?

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That's the thing though, there are posts in this thread where people have said that all spells should be easy to get, because they are spells.

Even going to the point of saying they won't be accepted by parties anymore for not having a spell that is nothing but a perk. I know the difference between being handed something and extremely difficult, but the fact is so many people want spells to be super easy to get so they can use them there is no difficulty in getting any of them anymore.

Why aren't there spells that are ex? I really wish to know the answer to this question. I don't like that every single scroll could be bought off the AH. Sure, you did the work to get the gil but that doesn't translate to doing the work to get the scroll at all anymore.

The only challenge getting scrolls now are to log into the game and check your nearest AH to give your gil to the counter. That sure is some challenge right there.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

That's the thing though, there are posts in this thread where people have said that all spells should be easy to get, because they are spells.

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That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

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Even going to the point of saying they won't be accepted by parties anymore for not having a spell that is nothing but a perk.

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Do you really think this won't happen? Even now there are shouts for VW that are Emp. only. There are a lot of "leaders" who will only accept what they percieve to be the best. There are also a lot of "leaders" who want their groups to carry them. They expect others to do the work so they don't have to.

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I know the difference between being handed something and extremely difficult, but the fact is so many people want spells to be super easy to get so they can use them there is no difficulty in getting any of them anymore.

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Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

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Originally Posted by Tazz

Making spells "extremely hard to obtain" is like making a melee's job abilities to enhance their skills "extremely hard to obtain". Melee jobs get their job abilities which they use to enhance their role in groups naturally, making a spell which mages need to use to enhance their role be "extremely hard to obtain" is not right. please fix this...

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While I wont agree or disagree, Empyrean/Relic WSs are not naturally acquired. Everyone can get them, but not everyone has them. There is no reason to not include unique and powerful spells. I for one would love some potent powerful magic that is hard to get (SMN in particular.)

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

Why aren't there spells that are ex?

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http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Klimaform.jpg

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Originally Posted by Camiie

That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

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I just don't see why there can't be both easy and difficult spells to obtain.

Magic is about researching and practicing the skill. Scrolls provide the resource material for you to learn, and using the magic in that class provides you the experience needed to master the spells in that field. This game follows this rule, yet the research material can just be bought with 10k here and 100k there, maybe a rare 500k-1m scroll, but that rarely happens.

Why can't there be room for rare scrolls that are only EX? That makes perfect sense in the world of magic. How could the world of Vana'diel not have any lost magic? Nothing horribly difficult to master? I'm not even a magic freak in games and I wonder this about FFXI. Logically to me, there should be rare scrolls. When we started our jobs, the scrolls of course would be cheap and affordable. As you leveled up then logically the price of your research should go up as well. We are at the maximum level after 8-10 years depending on where, and we still have scrolls that are 10k.

That doesn't make sense.

EX scrolls for quests would be smart, would be logical, would make sense. Going through dungeons to find a missing scroll in a quest is what you should be doing, yet we just have everything handed to us as long as we have 10-100k in our pockets, and with how easy gil is to make these days that isn't bringing a challenge at all. There should be no mage that has mastered the job collecting all the resources in the world of Vana'diel just by giving an AH counter 10k here and 10k there. It is really stupid how it works in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../Klimaform.jpg

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Thank you, that is an EX scroll that you have to quest for. That is what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Do you really think this won't happen? Even now there are shouts for VW that are Emp. only. There are a lot of "leaders" who will only accept what they percieve to be the best. There are also a lot of "leaders" who want their groups to carry them. They expect others to do the work so they don't have to.

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I've said this before, but if you are upset that a group rejected you then stop being upset. They are rejecting you because they think they are some type of elitist in games, yet they are planning on having players die. If you are being rejected from groups because you don't have a 2-5 mil scroll that reduces the weakness timer by 2 minutes, they are planning on wiping. A lot.

Stop feeling sorry for yourselves and move on. They aren't worth your time if they are planning on loosing anyways. Having 1-2 raise spells is more than enough to get people up who made mistakes, not 4 different raise spells. I understand why people didn't get Raise III. It's expensive, and you just don't need it anymore. Guess what, Arise isn't going to be any different. It has a lot of nice perks that go along with it, but it isn't going to break your WHM if you don't have it.

If you are confident in your abilities as WHM and get rejected by a group because you don't have yet another raise spell when they shoudln't even be planning on dying, move on. They aren't worth your time anyways and you should be thankful that they rejected you right from the start instead of wasting 1-3 hours of your time surprising you that... they all suck and are wiping to something they shouldn't be wiping to. No amount of Arise is going to fix that, if they are going to willingly die like that you can't do anything.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

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There is no challenge in using any of the Raise spells. If you are using Raise at all you either could not do your job correctly, they did not do their job correctly, or the monster instant killed them. Most of the time, it is the first from what I see as a WHM. Mistakes happen, and the battle can move fast. If you can't handle the situation you should have backup, and if they can't handle it with you then it isn't your fault because the person dying is doing something stupid probably.

A dead melee is the worst melee, and if the tank is falling then they either aren't doing something correctly or the monster is designed to overpower players. In that situation, you should know what is the reason.

With that said, there is no skill in using the spell Raise. There is no challenge in using the spell Raise. You really shouldn't be using the spell Raise... unless the situation calls for it (death spell that couldn't be stunned, so on). I know a great deal about WHM spells yet I have no clue in my mind how I can make the Raise spell challenging. I don't, I can't think of any part of it that is.

Trying to cast it and time it right in the middle of a battle?
You shouldn't be doing this. You have backup for a reason and if you don't then they should have reraise items. A WHM, no matter how skilled they are, can't just stop their job, ignore their entire group, and get you up. Yes I know that it can be done very easily, I'm saying you shouldn't be the one doing it, ever! I don't care if you have been looking at the count down for 3 minutes, you should be asking the support jobs to raise you, not the WHM (or remember to bring/use your reraise scrolls/items).

The WHM's duty is to keep their alliance alive, unless they are assigned a single party. Even then they should be throwing raises to support other groups (something I almost never see with WHM's). If you stop, and cast raise for 10, 15, 20 seconds, you are taking your attention away from the group. You are what keeps your group up and running, without you it is nothing but evasive survival and the MP pools of support healers and paladins. If you are raising, you should have 1-2 other WHM's there helping. If you are one of the main healers of the WHM, you tell one of the WHM's who isn't in a main healing role to raise them. If you don't have spare WHM's you ask a support job to raise them. If you don't have support then you let them stay dead until the fight is over, or make sure the team can handle it without you so you can cast raise. In that last point the person dead should of had reraise, everyone should have reraise. If they died after getting up that happens, but Arise can't fix this issue 100% of the time due to its casting/recast requirements.

Arise is not going to suddenly fix all of WHM's raising issues. It is a nice perk, but with the requirements to cast the spell it is an emergency spell. Arise does not have the ability to change the course of battles unless it is a Tank or WHM or someone that needs to proc unweakened. Melee aren't going to change it, and if you are timing out then you have much bigger issues in your group setup than one of your WHM's not having the spell Arise.

Enmity on Raise spells isn't an issue, and you shouldn't be worrying about it. If you are walking away from your group for 20-30 seconds to raise someone, possibly even putting yourself within AoE damage, you should not be worrying about MP management. Even if you aren't, it's not a spell you are going to cast all the time. You just can't, unless its 1 person dead. You are going to be using other raise spells along with it, and using Arise in emergency situations. MP management and enmity are never an issue for WHM when it comes to raising. You have walked out of your role as healer to raise someone, unless you need to rest then MP management and Enmity aren't even an issue.

tl;dr: If you are casting raise, you are leaving your duties as WHM to spend 10-20 seconds to raise someone. During this time you shouldn't be concerned with MP management (if so use a different raise) nor enmity (?). If you drop your duties as WHM during a fight, you have to have backup otherwise you are leaving everyone to stay alive on their own without your help and anything can happen in 20 seconds that can cause your group to loose if you are doing nothing but casting raise on someone who can't even help for another 3-5 minutes. Arise isn't going to change situation where you time out either, your problems are much deeper than having a WHM on your team that doesn't have Arise if you are timing out.

Arise is a very nice perk spell, but it will not break WHM's who haven't learned the spell. It will never break WHM, because it in the end is just another raise spell, although a very fancy one but that's it.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

That's fine by me. The challenge should be more about using the spells and getting the most out of them than obtaining them.

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Thanks for sharing your opinion. As you said, it's fine by you. We've already established that not everyone sees eye-to-eye on this.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Do you really think this won't happen?

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No. Empyreans are an entirely different animal. Having an Empyrean usually makes you better in terms of damage and hence, usefulness to the party. This is nothing but a luxury spell. A bonus. Great if your WHMs have it, doesn't matter if not.

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Originally Posted by Camiie

Like I said, let the challenge come from using them properly and to the best of one's ability. Managing MP or enmity. Using the right timing for the encounter. Knowing when where and how to use it rather than when is it going to drop, where does it come from, and how am I going to get it.

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That's like saying armor shouldn't be hard to obtain, because the difficulty should not be limited by the availability of armor, but by our knowledge and use of it. And yes, this time it is actually the same argument. Just like I don't want people to be able to buy everything with money even if they suck and wouldn't be able to obtain it by themselves (something that, sadly, is currently the case for almost every item in the game), I also wouldn't want people to have every spell if they're just a mule that follows one guy around aimlessly all the time. And don't get me wrong, I know that this isn't easy to change. Because even if someone isn't buyable, there would be people offering mercenary services for people to obtain said items. Voidwatch was one way to go about it, because people all had their own loot pool and no one else could verify it. Sadly, that brought other issues with it, but nothing that wasn't fixable (as players have been suggesting for a long time). In short, even if it wasn't perfect yet, I'd love there to be some kind of exclusiveness for spells, just like there is for armor.

Greetings! I’d like to share some feedback in regards additional comments we have seen related to Araise.

• Getting rid of weakness
We don’t have any plans to completely remove the weakness death penalty, so we decided to shorten the weakness time.

• Making it an AoE
We looked into this at first, but the system for Raise is unique amongst magic, and we were unable to do this as it’s not possible for magic to select and target dead characters.

• Making a separate “short weakness” Raise and a Raise “with Reraise effect added”
Araise was primarily designed with the former in mind. In other words, the main special effect of this spell is the short weakness time and the secondary effect is the added Reraise element. If it is not necessary, we can cut out the Reraise. We were not looking to create a Raise spell that had Reraise added to it, so we are not thinking to create this type of spell separately.

There have also been comments saying to just make Araise be Raise IV. While we do not have any plans currently for implementing a Raise IV, if we were to make the spell, I believe it would have effects such as 5 minute weakness, increased HP amount when raised (or possibly full HP recovery), and zero xp loss.

• XP Loss
The same as Raise III, Araise will return 90% of the experience points that were lost.

I'm not sure who asked about removing weakness completely...

but why is the spell called Araise instead of Arise?...

Camate please ask them why, because Araise sounds really dumb to say when the spell should be called Arise.

Please... it's so simple yet it seems like we are being ignored about it. Really, many players including myself have said that we are calling it Arise regardless if SE changes it or not, because that's what it should be. If it is because the spell isn't AoE change it anyways, Araise (A Raise) was never in any Final Fantasy game, ever, yet Arise was in almost all of them.

Arise, also known as LIF2/Life 2 and Full-Life:

Final Fantasy --- Full-Life & LIF2
Final Fantasy III --- Arise & Life 2
Final Fantasy IV --- Arise & Life 2 & Full-Life
Final Fantasy IV: The After Years --- Arise
Final Fantasy V --- Arise
Final Fantasy VI --- Airse & Life 2
Final Fantasy VII --- Life 2
Final Fantasy VIII --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy IX --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy X --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy X-2 --- Full-Life (Moogle Life & Moogle Lifeja)
Final Fantasy XII --- Arise
Final Fantasy XIII --- Arise
Final Fantasy Tactics --- Arise & Raise 2
Final Fantasy Tactics Advance --- Full-Life
Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift --- Arise
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates --- Arise
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Echoes of Time --- Arise
Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light --- Arise
Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy --- Arise

Final Fantasy XI (after 10 years) --- Araise....?

Edit: I was told from someone that the japanese is "A-Raise" and has been for every iteration. Does this mean that the translation is bad? For us the spell has always been Arise or LIF2/Life 2 or Full-Life.

How about adding like a 10-15second invincible effect so you can get up and move away from the monster without getting destroyed while still in the animation?

Camate could you please relate to the developers to stop making new contents where "a select few" will be able to obtain it. Everyone here pays the same amount of money EACH month. Contents should be accessible to ALL and not "select few". Look back at Abyssea and how it implemented a measured progression that is accessible to all. Stop making contents where everything is based on LUCK and chance - or contents with so little rewards or too difficult to do where the 95% of the players won't bother to do it. If the team is smaller and have less funds for development and need to prioritize then please focus on contents that can be enjoyed by ALL players. Please stop wasting time and effort for this so called "exclusive" contents, the majority does not like it and it tends to be very unpopular.

Thank you very much for reading our comments, I know some of them are not always in a positive notes.

Not sure if this needs to be said, but nobody cares about XP loss these days. A very short invincible on raise would be awesome though. Its no more overpowered than tractor and works in abyssea.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Getting rid of weakness
We don’t have any plans to completely remove the weakness death penalty, so we decided to shorten the weakness time.

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I don't think anyone's asked for this, anyway. That'd be a bit overpowered and would defeat one point of ninja's two-hour ability. Shortened weakness time is reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Making it an AoE
We looked into this at first, but the system for Raise is unique amongst magic, and we were unable to do this as it’s not possible for magic to select and target dead characters.

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It's a shame that didn't work out, now we have an explanation as to why.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Making a separate “short weakness” Raise and a Raise “with Reraise effect added”
Araise was primarily designed with the former in mind. In other words, the main special effect of this spell is the short weakness time and the secondary effect is the added Reraise element. If it is not necessary, we can cut out the Reraise. We were not looking to create a Raise spell that had Reraise added to it, so we are not thinking to create this type of spell separately.

There have also been comments saying to just make Araise be Raise IV. While we do not have any plans currently for implementing a Raise IV, if we were to make the spell, I believe it would have effects such as 5 minute weakness, increased HP amount when raised (or possibly full HP recovery), and zero xp loss.

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Adding another raise spell that'd just lessen exp loss even further... is kind of pointless, so I'm glad there's no plans to do that. As if -240 EXP loss is anything major in the first place.

Is the reraise effect necessary? Not really, but it's a nice perk, and given the difficulty in the spell obtaining, I'd prefer the spell effects remain as is there.

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Originally Posted by Camate;

• XP Loss
The same as Raise III, Araise will return 90% of the experience points that were lost.

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EXP loss is hardly anyone's concern these days, but interesting info nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Kalilla

but why is the spell called Araise instead of Arise?...

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Susuthamnes from the Localization team addressed this recently.

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Originally Posted by Susuthamnes

What happened here was simply a case of a temporary development name slipping through on the test server.

All of the opinions you quote are right on target, of course, and you (and the rest of the community) can rest assured that the spell will be renamed for the official release.

Thanks for keeping us on our toes!

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It'll be Arise.

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Originally Posted by Phafi

How about adding like a 10-15second invincible effect so you can get up and move away from the monster without getting destroyed while still in the animation?

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I hate when that happens...

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

Adding another raise spell that'd just lessen exp loss even further... is kind of pointless, so I'm glad there's no plans to do that. As if -240 EXP loss is anything major in the first place.

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If anything I think this should be something covered through a gear piece that does something else and works on all Raises. Perhaps Yagrush could have "Lowers Experience Loss on Raise" or some other piece of gear could have it as another nice trait on it (but not as the main draw because inventory is at a premium). This would help save limited spell space as well on what would be a wasted Raise IV spell.

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

Is the reraise effect necessary? Not really, but it's a nice perk, and given the difficulty in the spell obtaining, I'd prefer the spell effects remain as is there.

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Yes, I'd like to keep the Reraise effect, but even more then this if it made characters invulnerable to area of effect moves for the duration of the animation combined with raising them with at least non-yellow HP (if not just deoderized and sneaked to avoid undead) would be a very nice way to ensure Raises don't go to waste. This is especially important if the spell costs more then the standard 150 MP.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Making it an AoE
We looked into this at first, but the system for Raise is unique amongst magic, and we were unable to do this as it’s not possible for magic to select and target dead characters.

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So fix it?

I appreciate the extra information. It's very true that the shortened weakness will be the best part of Arise, but if the spell truly is extremely extremely hard to obtain than I'd prefer it keep both effects.

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Originally Posted by Camate

• Making it an AoE
We looked into this at first, but the system for Raise is unique amongst magic, and we were unable to do this as it’s not possible for magic to select and target dead characters.

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It's sad to hear that such isn't easily possible, but nice to know it was considered, because such a spell would be awesome when things go really bad.

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

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Originally Posted by Susuthamnes

Hi Edyth,

Thank you for compiling this feedback.
What happened here was simply a case of a temporary development name slipping through on the test server.

All of the opinions you quote are right on target, of course, and you (and the rest of the community) can rest assured that the spell will be renamed for the official release.

Thanks for keeping us on our toes!

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It'll be Arise.

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Wow, thank you Fredjan. I would of never found this because all I follow is the dev tracker and a developer isn't even in the list @.@

Sweet, I'm glad that they responded. They should make the Dev Team members have an admin background and their posts go into the dev tracker like the Community Reps and others do.

I'm interested in whether the shortened weakness will negate double weakness. For instance, if you are killed with weakness on, and somebody casts arise on you, do you raise with a shortened double weakness, or a shortened single weakness? If it's the latter, then this spell is incredibly useful for BLMs and RNGs who become pretty much useless under double weakness.

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Originally Posted by Phafi

How about adding like a 10-15second invincible effect so you can get up and move away from the monster without getting destroyed while still in the animation?

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Now that would be awesome. Just long enough to survive the raise animation and run away.