[DEV1064] Tachi: Shoha

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Originally Posted by VZX

You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune



And what part you don't understand of "2.3k~2.4 when 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" ?
Did I say 2 hits landed is ALL I had in 2 hours session? Did I say it was AVERAGE?

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so why did ur damage suck so bad? I was hitting 4k average 2hits with 1 STR atma, that 1 STR atma doesnt make 1600 damage

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Originally Posted by Toren

Shoha, does not need nerfing, Fudo and Kaiten still out damage it in almost every situation except in where it's a mob with high defense. Myself, and other fellow Amanomurakumo & Masamune Samurai can attest to this. Abyssea and Atma shouldn't be factored into this.

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The fact that it even has the potential should call for it...because I don't see how 3.4K outside of abyssea is overpowered when Ukko's is now going to be shot down to, what, a max of 3K? No siree, I don't see how that's overpowered. No Siree. <_<

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Originally Posted by VZX

You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune

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You should get one for your SAM regardless, if you're serious about your job.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...216_135334.png

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.

http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/...07/lumberg.jpg

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I had 300tp ~ 2HWS DMG Atma and I hit this number once out of 50 WS's. Average was more like 3k tbh. Musta Triple attacked as I had A&O atma on two, along with VV>

my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea, inside using VV, GC, A & O my rough average is 3k~3.4k with some of the best WS gear available to samurai anything that's above that is usually a DA or a TA.

Edit: My 85 verethragna black belt monk still walks all over my 90 masamune samurai with capped haste gear, and I don't see this changing anytime soon unless V smites nerf is massive.

If we're gonna post WS shots with no context to them, Resolution needs to be nerfed too:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f4...Untitled-5.jpg

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/...216_135334.png

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.

http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/...07/lumberg.jpg

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lolabyssea

Ukko Damage war during VW....

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Originally Posted by VZX

1. You don't have Shoha
2. You don't understand the underlying math behind it
3. You don't have Shoha

My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage 1-2 times in 2 hours session when finishing trial of TP bonus GKT on wivre. 5.4k damage is that is I need triple attack proc on both hits and land.
For my case, in order to get 7k damage damage is only possible with 2 STR atma, triple attack proc AND land on all hits with nearly 300 TP worth.

You are saying like this happens every single time we unleash the WS at 100% TP. No. With just cruor buff you expect Shoha only dealing 2.3k-2.4k with 2 hits landed. Outside is about 2.1k, which is actually very close to Fudo damage where attack is capped on target mob.

What next you'll complain? Someone posting non brew 10k damage last stand on piercing weak mob and you will call a nerf? Get some grip.

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Honestly, VZX, it feels kind of weird to disagree with you on numbers, but still;

Between the significant amount of STR gear available to sams, the moderately strong fTP relative to the other new ws, the fact that whoring out str gear increases the likelihood of capping fSTR even on stronger mobs, or getting fairly close on super tough ones, and the significant attack bonus shoha has allowing it to reach the pDIF cap much more easily than most ws; how can you not see how overpowered this ws is?

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Originally Posted by VZX

You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune



And what part you don't understand of "2.3k~2.4 when 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" ?
Did I say 2 hits landed is ALL I had in 2 hours session? Did I say it was AVERAGE?

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Not only this, and not only has VZX provided countless hours of research and information into weapon skills and how damage is actually calculated, but stating this:


"YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS"

You've automatically proven yourself incapable of understanding the WS dmg formula. I wonder what Shoha's mod is.

Oh wait, it's STR. Upwards of nearly 100%.

Crap, what's that damage formula again... directly from ffxiclopedia:

Damage = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

Where
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: function of difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR 30% (30% of your STR) * alpha
fTP : TP Multiplier (See individual Weapon Skill)
PDIF: function of (your Physical ATK/target’s Physical DEF)
WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) * @ (which is .85 at 99? I forgot already)

so let's take a 110 dmg gkt for the hell of it. weapon rank is 12. (110/9 = 12 + remainder 2)

fSTR caps at 20 in this case (weapon rank+8). so (str-vit+4)/4 = 20, (str-vit+4)=80, str-vit = 76. you need a difference of 76 str vs the mob's vit to cap fSTR in the first place. Cruor buffs don't always cap you anyway, but that's still not my point.

so where were we?

(110 + 20 + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

And this is where the point of this whole exercise is. WSC. What's WSC? A flat bonus from certain attributes for every weapon skill. And guess what?

It doesn't cap.

So not only is he getting an extra almost 40 ATK for all that STR on an atma in the first place (remember that patch a long time ago in a land far away for 2hd weapon jobs? oh yeah), he's also getting an extra 40 STR that's used as a secondary mod for a almost 100% STR ws.

Going through the rest of this exercise is pointless; if you don't see it and you don't understand it, have fun continuing to be terrible at this game. I need to get back to my job.

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Originally Posted by Hextitan

If we're gonna post WS shots with no context to them, Resolution needs to be nerfed too:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f4...Untitled-4.jpg

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Resolution can't be used 30% more frequently.

That number is huge, though! Let me guess, WAR with Mighty Strikes up

also, I dont really care if shoha gets nerfed or not, its definitely powerful, and I keep calling it OP, but its just powerful

other WSs just badly need buffed, to list AGAIN

Quietus, Cloudsplitter, Camlann's Torment, Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat, and probably quite a few relic WSs, Metsu for sure to start that list

do you want me to post a screenshot of me getting a 6k jinpu with AoA, too?

christ, you people

shoha is overpowered but reposting an abyssea triple attack proc over and over again like it means something is pretty dumb

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

That number is huge, though! Let me guess, WAR with Mighty Strikes up

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Yeah, you got me :P

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Originally Posted by Toren

my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea.

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I think you need better gear.

excuse me while I post a 4k Exenterator on Kirin on thief, ohmygod nerf dagger WS

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Originally Posted by Genostar

Not only this, and not only has VZX provided countless hours of research and information into weapon skills and how damage is actually calculated, but stating this:


"YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS"

You've automatically proven yourself incapable of understanding the WS dmg formula. I wonder what Shoha's mod is.

Oh wait, it's STR. Upwards of nearly 100%.

Crap, what's that damage formula again... directly from ffxiclopedia:

Damage = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

Where
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: function of difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR 30% (30% of your STR) * alpha
fTP : TP Multiplier (See individual Weapon Skill)
PDIF: function of (your Physical ATK/target’s Physical DEF)
WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) * @ (which is .85 at 99? I forgot already)

so let's take a 110 dmg gkt for the hell of it. weapon rank is 12. (110/9 = 12 + remainder 2)

fSTR caps at 20 in this case (weapon rank+8). so (str-vit+4)/4 = 20, (str-vit+4)=80, str-vit = 76. you need a difference of 76 str vs the mob's vit to cap fSTR in the first place. Cruor buffs don't always cap you anyway, but that's still not my point.

so where were we?

(110 + 20 + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

And this is where the point of this whole exercise is. WSC. What's WSC? A flat bonus from certain attributes for every weapon skill. And guess what?

It doesn't cap.

So not only is he getting an extra almost 40 ATK for all that STR on an atma in the first place (remember that patch a long time ago in a land far away for 2hd weapon jobs? oh yeah), he's also getting an extra 40 STR that's used as a secondary mod for a almost 100% STR ws.

Going through the rest of this exercise is pointless; if you don't see it and you don't understand it, have fun continuing to be terrible at this game. I need to get back to my job.

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I stand corrected. Regardless of such, this just proves my point further on why Shoha should be nerfed. Thanks for the contribution!

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

I stand corrected. Regardless of such, this just proves my point further on why Shoha should be nerfed. Thanks for the contribution!

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actually it has nothing to do with it. the 7k shot was lucky as hell. I've done crazy damage with Raging Rush (6.5k) too.

Shoha doesn't need a nerf. Most of everything else needs a buff. Stop focusing on the wrong issue.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT USING RAZED RUINS

YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS

Don't you talk to me about complaining when you're doing it wrong.

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I see no point in using razed ruins, tbh, not on Shoha sam anyways. There's no ODD and you're only doing 4 swings between ws. Razed ruins does nothing on Shoha. I'd rather buff the major portion of my damage (I.E. The ws) than those pathetic 4 melee swings in between.

I can break 7k with the 1hand axe ws. I expect I should able to break 8k if given a triple attack without the mob dying before all hits land.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

dark knight sucks and has always sucked so i'm going to cry about it on here

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Do yourself a favor and cry about your own job's weapon skills paling in comparison to not only Samurai (obviously), but any other jobs' weapon skills (even Ukko's/Smite after the incoming nerf I'm sure).

At this rate with condescending players such as yourself, we'll all be left with weapon skills that do no more than a thousand damage on anything, with any weapon, ever, because level seventy-five damage numbers are clearly the numbers we should see at ninety-nine; fucking idiot.

Not only is there everything I stated, and this axe comment, and the comment from Cream Soda, but keep in mind there are other WSes that also have STR mods that need a nerf, by your logic. I don't think this WS (Shoha) needs a 2x ATK buff and I don't think it has one that high, but it does have some of an attack bonus. Guess what also gets an attack bonus? Most of the other merited WSes for jobs that need them due to having lower damage rating weapons. Holy crap, logic. Even more logic: they get negative or no bonus at 100tp and get positive bonuses a little higher than 100tp. I can also name a WS I never use at 100tp outside abyssea, I wait for 120, say hello to Blade: Hi.

BALANCEEEEEEEEE

Also: Merit some of the other 2 hand weaponskills to cap, properly gear them, and see what kind of damage you get out of them. Resolution is also an STR mod, and hits 5 times, hint hint.

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Originally Posted by Dezaar

I had 300tp ~ 2HWS DMG Atma and I hit this number once out of 50 WS's. Average was more like 3k tbh. Musta Triple attacked as I had A&O atma on two, along with VV>

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Don;t believe this BS. He did it double weakened @ 100 TP without cruor buffs.


NERF HIM! NERF DIS MOTHER******!

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Originally Posted by Seha

I think you need better gear.

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No, 2k's pretty reasonable for Shoha outside; damage is a little inconsistent because SAM happens to have a lot of DA after the Zanshin update but as for the baseline WS, STR gear is easy to get so adding another 10 or 15 more on top of the 80 or so you're falling ass-backwards into with twilight helm/mail isn't going to magically turn it into something it isn't.

What it is is a solidly above-average WS that happened to be given to a job that can use it every 15 seconds or so.

hmmmmm, after running the numbers again on shoha's fTP and sam's general pool of available str gear, I'm going to take back my assertion that it needs to be nerfed because it's to strong. I still think it should be nerfed because sam is to strong in general, but the numbers seem to suggest that it doesn't need a significant nerf. The other merit ws, however, need a significant buff, if they're not going to make them at least a little uniform in terms of damage ranges.

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Originally Posted by scaevola

No, 2k's pretty reasonable for Shoha outside; damage is a little inconsistent because SAM happens to have a lot of DA after the Zanshin update but as for the baseline WS, STR gear is easy to get so adding another 10 or 15 more on top of the 80 or so you're falling ass-backwards into with twilight helm/mail isn't going to magically turn it into something it isn't.

What it is is a solidly above-average WS that happened to be given to a job that can use it every 15 seconds or so.

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pretty much this.

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Originally Posted by Genostar

actually it has nothing to do with it. the 7k shot was lucky as hell. I've done crazy damage with Raging Rush (6.5k) too.

Shoha doesn't need a nerf. Most of everything else needs a buff. Stop focusing on the wrong issue.

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Eh... I wouldn't go there until it's for sure that people start coming SAM to everything again.

And after thinking it over, when I said "auto-capped from cruor buffs," I have to admit I was thinking of STR in context of DRK WS, where Scythe and Great Sword WS (outside of Resoluton) are more attack-based and STR only adds to fSTR, not WSC. Guess I've been playing DRK too much, lol.

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my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea.

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This was only based off of a few times I have been able to use Shoha outside of Abyssea with only 2/5 merit pumps, I haven't played around with it as much outside of Abyssea since I capped it out, However I'm not going to argue the point but my gear is fine.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

Main Job: PUP lv. 95

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Of course you think it needs nerfing.

Moron.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

I see no point in using razed ruins, tbh, not on Shoha sam anyways. There's no ODD and you're only doing 4 swings between ws. Razed ruins does nothing on Shoha. I'd rather buff the major portion of my damage (I.E. The ws) than those pathetic 4 melee swings in between.

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Duely noted

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Do yourself a favor and cry about your own job's weapon skills paling in comparison to not only Samurai (obviously), but any other jobs' weapon skills (even Ukko's/Smite after the incoming nerf I'm sure).

At this rate with condescending players such as yourself, we'll all be left with weapon skills that do no more than a thousand damage on anything, with any weapon, ever, because level seventy-five damage numbers are clearly the numbers we should see at ninety-nine; fucking idiot.

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Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

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Nope, but terrible players crying about the wrong things certainly is normal.

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Of course you think it needs nerfing.

Moron.

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...because the single displayed job is obviously a 100% accurate sign of a person's knowledge of the game mechanics, and there's no way that person could possible have other jobs. You don't see me accusing you of never even playing the game, mr. WAR lv. 1, do you? No, I think not. Go troll somewhere else.

Why are certain mongs comparing shohas from abyssea gdi abyssea is over, at least compare ws outside.

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Duely noted



Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

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DO NOT IGNORE ME

SHOHA DOES NOT DO THIS

For comparison's sake, I haven't used my 3/5 Shoha outside of Abyssea on anything meaningful yet (closest were Gustav worms/turtles to get stones for friends' LB), but on those mobs, I was doing about 1100 to the turtles and 1800 to the worms. I don't have twilight mail or helm.

On DNC I did about 800 and 1100 to the same mobs (respectively) with Dancing Edge. Shoha is still waaaaay behind anything that we look at and say "holy shit that's pretty overpowered". It's only overpowered relative to content designed with the expectation that we should.....still be using shit like Dancing Edge.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

i'm totally not biased to puppetmaster

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http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5...mprovement.jpg

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

Nope, but terrible players crying about the wrong things certainly is normal.

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Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.

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Originally Posted by Taint2

DO NOT IGNORE ME

SHOHA DOES NOT DO THIS

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That's pre-nerf though :x

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5...mprovement.jpg

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...I'm a mnk and a war too, yo. Sorry if I enjoy playing pup more because I need to put more thought into it than engage->TP->ws->repeat. That doesn't have any bearing on my opinions of shoha, since I've fully accepted that pup will never be a top tier Zerg DD and have made that feeling pretty clear in the past.

But since we're using children's logic, your opinion is absolutely irrelevant to every discussion on this forum because someone who's main job is level 1 has obviously never played this game.

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/6/9/691...db20f975b1.jpg

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Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl

Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.

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I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

7k Shoha is possible with two triple attack procs. Average with 2 TAs is about 6k, and with a generally high pDif it can hit 7k. The only practical means of getting that kind of proc is with Apoc atma (and per the person who did it, also A&O atma) inside Abyssea. But we're not talking inside Abyssea, we want outside (though there are certainly still considerations for drk's non-crit weaponskills inside Abyssea to compare with the other jobs).

Outside Abyssea you're looking at maybe 1 DA at best most of the time (~15%-20%?), with a rare chance at 2 DA. Given exactly the same setup as the theoretical 7k Abyssea weaponskill, that's about a 2k average with no DA, a 2.5k average with one DA, 3.1k with two DAs. Overall average is slightly over 2k. Of course then you add Overwhelm and it can increase to a 2.4k average.

For Ukko war vs same target, it's about 2.1k without Blood Rage, 2.7k with Blood Rage (using current version of Blood Rage). Add in Restraint and average increases to 2.5k to 3.2k (without/with BR). With war's DA rate, there's a much higher likelihood of a couple DAs proccing, giving you more noticeable spikes.


Overall DPS for those two was about 215 for sam and 183 for war (after averaging out durations for Berserk/Blood Rage/Restraint). Doesn't count extra skillchain damage that sam can easily pick up.


Long term average, mnk actually has a higher DPS than either of those two (228) even though it has a lower weaponskill average. However, many NM fights nowadays are more heavily skewed towards weaponskill damage due to Save TP, wings, and meditating outside melee range. If a war or sam can sekka two weaponskills right off the bat, that can give them enough of a lead that the mnk would never catch up before the mob is dead.

Note: I haven't implemented Save TP in all spreadsheets yet, so numbers don't account for that.


On atma: If using a TP Bonus Keito, best atma combo with Shoha for overall DPS is Apoc, VV, Griffon Claw. RR is pretty far behind. If using a Masamune and trying to mix in ODD, RR catches up, but seems more of a hassle than it's worth. Even with straight-up Fudo, RR is more of a sidegrade.

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Originally Posted by Genostar

I don't think this WS (Shoha) needs a 2x ATK buff and I don't think it has one that high, but it does have some of an attack bonus.

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That's what I mentioned in the Original Post- that the attack bonus should be reduced to a level where most DDs are able to compete at. I said nothing about nerfing STR; the STR Atma bit was a completely different argument in context of Masamune builds for Abyssea. And Abyssea is still pretty relevant to the game.

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Guess what also gets an attack bonus? Most of the other merited WSes for jobs that need them due to having lower damage rating weapons. Holy crap, logic. Even more logic: they get negative or no bonus at 100tp and get positive bonuses a little higher than 100tp. I can also name a WS I never use at 100tp outside abyssea, I wait for 120, say hello to Blade: Hi.

BALANCEEEEEEEEE

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Why the hell did they nerf Realmrazer and Ruinator then?! D:

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Also: Merit some of the other 2 hand weaponskills to cap, properly gear them, and see what kind of damage you get out of them. Resolution is also an STR mod, and hits 5 times, hint hint.

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I did that on the test server, Reso looks really good <3

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Originally Posted by IronPandemonium

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

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I've been talking about shoha because it's a complete outlier in the new ws they added and goes completely against their obvious intention of the new ws being side grades. I've done no "crying". I enjoy the delicious tears of people who piss and moan about random crap just as much as you do.

Besides, consider this: your shock-jockey posting style of "You're a big @^&%ing baby, stop crying" to get a rise out of people isn't that much different from me saying "nerf shoha, it's OP" to watch the sams rush in rage all over "the idiots who don't know how bad sam has it". Seriously, the only reason I'm replying to you is because I love to feed trolls.

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Originally Posted by Theytak

...I'm a mnk and a war too, yo.

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An awful one at that, seeing how you're under the impression Shoha absolutely destroyed Ukko's Fury.

Oh wait, look at this: NO UKKO'S FURY OR EVEN VICTORY SMITE HOBOY.

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2684/1305424009336.png