Victory smite nerf [dev1064]

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12-23-2011, 03:20 AM
FrankReynolds

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

Well hopefully they make those more easily attainable. Nyzul weapons are a friggin pain.
12-23-2011, 07:21 AM
MarkovChain

tldr; VS is now likely 15% crit at 100 tp.

Ok I tested VS' innate crit rate. I did plenty of WS on even match sand sweeper, without killing them, without mutiattack, without gorget etc. Since BG wiki average pdif formula are wrong I had to do a samples for crit hits and non crit hit.

Atmas : RR/GH/SS : with dex bonus it gives 75% crit rate total and 60% crit damage
stats : PUP99/THF49 564 Att, 172 STR, 208 dex (irrelevant), 127 vit

victory smite sample=[3552, 2732, 3098, 3902, 3169, 2652, 3328, 3616, 3815, 3074, 3592, 3618, 2267, 2844, 3535, 2490, 3100, 3554, 2950, 3675, 3724, 2715, 3079, 2604, 2467, 3291, 3224, 3676, 3343, 2781, 3351, 1797, 2429, 3705, 3215, 3029, 3699, 3032, 3229, 3004, 2313, 1899, 2760, 2967, 3161, 3333, 2401, 3119, 3041, 3814, 3725, 2114, 3026, 3437, 1766, 2809, 2775, 2491, 3200, 1963, 3803, 3137, 2079, 3218, 3403, 3578, 2544, 3505, 2748, 3363, 2664, 3827, 3697,2852,3916,2724,3548,3298]
78 weapon skills
average : 3076.60 +/- 119 (the error should be lower as each ws is 4 rolls, so it's probably half of that)

Crit sample:[318,384,344,396,339,406,400,368,697,326,369,422,417,324,369,353,363,400,348,396,353,360,361,379,401,417,353,312,427,326,416,345,412,304,344,420,340,356,356,380,214,329,344,404,382,395,332,361,302,339,393,414,321,409,400,323,360,308,395,312,398,379,342,419,340,318,366,360,412,339,380,395,360,318,408,297,360,329,320,396,323,358,366,316,315,396,374,419,300,337,406,355,347,358,340,379,366,363,340,392,406,320,340,408,387,398,416,377,412,337,361,358,350,315,323,321,353,308,240,348,328,336,328,339,326,404,374,308,331,414,360,305,313,372,324,388,412,401,342,390,329,334,339,347,428,427]
146 crits,
average : mc=362.33 +/- 7.7

non crits=[103,155,123,101,101,100,103,103,100,135,117,105,113,100,105,102,155,105,100,147,101,100,130,105,144,104,105,133,104,152,141,147,100,103,139,112,143,104,104,154,101,117,102,145,102,103,129,107,109,127,101,101,100,100,105,102,105,101,134,105,101,124,151,103,108,100,157,146,103,149,109,105,140,104,104,106,106,153,100,105,104,103,150,140,109,117,120,108,113,117,105,152,147,103,101,104,108,136,107,125,130,153,101,103,101,140,156,104,129,137,138,100,132,103,116,102,150,117,154,142,139,103,105]
123 hits
average : m1=117.82 +/- 3.37

My WSD is WSC:=floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*(floor(0.32*172)+floor(0.32*127)))=181
(using 432 skill and D+39 weapon)

(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.90*mc*1.6+0.10*m1)*0.95=3020.007026 if 15% crit rate
(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.85*mc*1.6+0.15*m1)*0.95=2910.733566 if 10% crit rate
(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.95*mc*1.6+0.05*m1)*0.95=3129.280486 if 20% crit rate

Well since I find 3076 it can be either 15% or 20%, it cannot be less, and it's likely 15% since my CI should be lower than what I have due to one ws being 4 hits. Did they ajust it yet or not ? If they did it means the maths done that usually assumed 15% crit are wrong but now are right lol. It could be that they nerfed it from 20% to 15%. 25% to 20% is impossible since it was previously tested with atmas to be impossible by gokku.
12-23-2011, 07:25 AM
Warden

I did some very crude VS work on the test server to at least get some taste for the nerf. I was fighting Pil as MNK99/SAM49.
-Impetus/boost not used on any WS's/throughout testing (Impetus up would have been pretty much pointless since I could only survive for 60 seconds with fanatic's and was barely auto-attacking the whole time anyway).
-Champion's/Stalwarts/Braver's Tonics all used
-Food: Sole Sushi

-Gear-
Weapon: Verethragna 90
Ammo: Potestas Bomblet
Head: Shura+1: Augmented with 4 DEX/5 Attack/3% WSD
Neck: Rancor Collar
Ear1: Aesir Ear Pendant
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body/Feet: Tantra+2
Legs: Shura+1: Augmented with STR+4
Hands: Heafoc Mitts
Ring1: Epona's Ring
Ring2: Rajas Ring
Back: Atheling Mantle
Waist: Thunder Belt

VS Damage: 18 WS's Total; Average = 1477
762
773
831
-----
1117
1150
1255
1329
1395
1474
1502
1582
1659
1707
1720
-----
1891
1944
2035
-----
2456

I have only done maybe 16-20 Pils total on the normal server, and sadly have not parsed myself on any of them. From memory, and as I am sure many others can attest--the lowest smites I ever saw were ~1150, and my highest on Pil was 3098. The most common numbers I recall seeing were the 1300-2700 range, with 1300-1999 comprising maybe 50% of the WS's, another 40% in the 2000-3000 range, and then 10% either below 1300 or above 3000. Again, I'm obviously just going off of memory on the numbers without the nerf present-and these numbers also include impetus/full DD drinks applied, and other times with no impetus/DD drinks applied.

Using that exact same gear set, I tossed out a couple of spirals for shiz, which ended up being 703, 764, 813, and 870. Obviously this is FAR from anywhere near an ideal Shijin set. I'm wondering if an ideal set + the increased base dmg from spharai could pull Shijin up to ~1400, or possibly even more.
12-23-2011, 07:28 AM
MarkovChain

Shijin will pull ahead easily if you gear for it, the increased damage from spharai is marginal as 1 dex is nearly 1 dmg.
12-23-2011, 07:44 AM
Warden

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Shijin will pull ahead easily if you gear for it, the increased damage from spharai is marginal as 1 dex is nearly 1 dmg.

Hmm, hopefully I can get in on a Pil run soon and get some more solid testing without the nerf on VS dmg, and with impetus up whenever possible throughout the fight. As I am sure it is already apparent, trying to get useful data from this game is rather new territory for me--the main question I am leaning on now though is...will optimizing mnk DPS now consists of using Vere/VS 60% of the time with impetus up, and switching to spharai/SS for the remaining 40% of the time with impetus down to optimize dps. To be clear, I am strictly talking about outside of abyssea.
12-23-2011, 08:21 AM
MarkovChain

The difference while impetus is up is marginal enough to full time the relic. The only reason for vere is when you have a lot of crit from outside sources. Other wise they are pretty much equal but spharai is more consistent since it's a multihit.
12-23-2011, 11:32 AM
sruon

I don't always read pchan threads, but when I do, I do it for the disinformation.
12-23-2011, 11:33 AM
Greatguardian

Quote:

Originally Posted by sruon

I don't always read pchan threads, but when I do, I do it for the disinformation.

What disinformation?

Coming from Pchan at least?
12-24-2011, 03:04 AM
Atoreis

Maybe the part where on paper SS match/surpass VS and in reality its far behind? The problem is that Markov for some strange reason doesnt fight VW and give us a real numbers of SS at something like Kaggen. Getting Spharai on test server wont let me test it myself because I am lacking SS gear there.

Saying Impetus is a little boost to VS is just stupid and from my experience SS is not even close to VS at VW but ofc we wont ever get any proof because for Markov VW is stupid event that should be deleted from game ;)
12-24-2011, 03:44 AM
Greatguardian

Well the paper math looks to assume a damn near perfect DEX set for SS. Not many people have something like that, as there was no reason to before SS. Since the WSC is such a huge factor in SS, it's not surprising it's underperforming in practice compared to perfect gear sets.

You're not an idiot. Why in the world are you trying to overvalue parsed values - especially since Shijin beating Smite is largely dependent on using Spharai, not Vereth? If it's underperforming on Kaggen, then we probably have Kaggen's attributes wrong - because even Moten is pretty much on board with Pchan's Shijin analysis.
12-24-2011, 04:24 AM
Motenten

Here, I'll put together numbers using gear I actually have vs the fake Qilin target (high def, favors crit damage more):

Code:

Shijin: Smite: Thew Bomblet Thew Bomblet Aias Bonnet Shura Aug (4 dex, 2% WSDmg) Gorget Gorget Brutal Brutal Aesir Aesir Tantra +2 Tantra +2 Ochiudo Heafoc Rajas Rajas Epona Epona Atheling Atheling Warwolf Anguinus Byakko Usukane Tantra +2 Tantra +2

Impetus up:
Shijin: 1661
Smite: 2078

Impetus down:
Shijin: 1595
Smite: 1680

Smite has a 25% lead with Impetus, a 5% lead without. You want stuff like Toci's Harness, Ocelomeh +1 head, Denali +5 feet, etc, to really push Shijin up past Smite. Spharai also help, with the higher base damage and heavy +att (I'm using Vere 90 for both of the above).
12-24-2011, 05:13 AM
Atoreis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motenten

Here, I'll put together numbers using gear I actually have vs the fake Qilin target (high def, favors crit damage more):

Code:

Shijin: Smite: Thew Bomblet Thew Bomblet Aias Bonnet Shura Aug (4 dex, 2% WSDmg) Gorget Gorget Brutal Brutal Aesir Aesir Tantra +2 Tantra +2 Ochiudo Heafoc Rajas Rajas Epona Epona Atheling Atheling Warwolf Anguinus Byakko Usukane Tantra +2 Tantra +2

Impetus up:
Shijin: 1661
Smite: 2078

Impetus down:
Shijin: 1595
Smite: 1680

Smite has a 25% lead with Impetus, a 5% lead without. You want stuff like Toci's Harness, Ocelomeh +1 head, Denali +5 feet, etc, to really push Shijin up past Smite. Spharai also help, with the higher base damage and heavy +att (I'm using Vere 90 for both of the above).

Im going to make like 100 SS on Kaggen and 100VS with 95 Veret and Spharai. All with Impetus and berserk and etc beside champion drink. Best I can get at test server is dex+61 (Pipilaka belt instead of 10DEX one, Love torque instead of gorget, af2+2 feet instead of athos, af2+2 gloves instead of Hachiryu, Osode instead of ???, thunder pearl and 7 dex ring instead of +4 and +8 earring/ring, thew bomblet instead of demonry) its not perfect but have a little more str and att than perfect SS set and only like 25DEX less.

So far avg SS is 1470 and I need to go on real server for some event so will go with it later.

Btw Im pretty sure your SS set is not even close to optimal Motenten.
Should be Shura for both. Even Osode should be better than Body +2 for SS even w/o augment. There is +10 dex belt instead of warwolf. Athos boots instead of af2+2 or Tantra+2(lol) and probably +4 dex earring instead of aesir.
12-24-2011, 05:15 AM
Greatguardian

Giving up 25 Dex for more attack is a loss of 21 base damage on a multihit WS with Stalwart's, Berserk, and an attack bonus so it's going to have an impact.

I realize it's a matter of circumstance, but it will bring your numbers down.
12-24-2011, 05:20 AM
Atoreis

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Giving up 25 Dex for more attack is a loss of 21 base damage on a multihit WS with Stalwart's, Berserk, and an attack bonus so it's going to have an impact.

I realize it's a matter of circumstance, but it will bring your numbers down.

I know but this number its easy to calculate if you know how much more % of base damage that would give me so you can just add that to my avg when I done.
12-24-2011, 05:41 AM
Motenten

Quote:

Btw Im pretty sure your SS set is not even close to optimal Motenten.
Should be Shura for both. Even Osode should be better than Body +2 for SS even w/o augment. There is +10 dex belt instead of warwolf. Athos boots instead of af2+2 or Tantra+2(lol) and probably +4 dex earring instead of aesir.

1) I know it's not close to optimal. I said as much: it's based on gear I actually have, on the basis that most people don't have optimal SS gear sets if they've focused more on Smite up until now. It was to show you that if you don't have a specifically optimized SS gear set it's not at all surprising that Smite will outdo it.

2) I only have an NQ augmented Shura head (been lying in storage for years) that I got to play around with, and it's only the second sky piece I've ever bothered augmenting (first was Genbu's Shield). Compared to Aias, it's -3 str, -4 dex, +2% WSDmg. The lower str and dex means a loss of 3 to 5 base damage compared to Aias. Where the weaponskill will have a ~200-250 base damage to start, it's entirely possible that the +WSDmg will not make up for the lack of stats.

3) Forgot to check Osode. It's indeed slightly better, giving Shijin 1606 without Impetus and 1675 with.

4) Part of the gear choices were because the fake Qilin target also stresses accuracy (eg: Smite using Anguinus instead of a str belt). So, for example, the +acc on Tantra+2 feet, when combined with the str, was more valuable than the 5 dex of Aurore feet, and such (though in that case, even if I took acc out of the equation, Aurore are only about 5 points ahead). Athos are indeed better, but as per point #1, I don't have them, so they're not included in this little comparison.
12-24-2011, 06:35 AM
MarkovChain

There is an ah alternative to athos for as much dex, ocemoleh head and body are easy to gather. AF2+2 feet is likely better than both is not fstr capped.
12-24-2011, 06:58 AM
Atoreis

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkovChain

There is an ah alternative to athos for as much dex, ocemoleh head and body are easy to gather. AF2+2 feet is likely better than both is not fstr capped.

Well Athos is 10DEX and 3 dex is 2.55 base damage. 7STR is 1.75 base damage. Ofc they can also both be 2 base damage after rounding but in pure comparison Athos's are better.
12-24-2011, 07:09 AM
MarkovChain

It also gives attack. When doing math against 500 def mobs af2+2 didn't win but I assumed 150 str which is only possible with minuet and boost str.
12-24-2011, 07:13 AM
Atoreis

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It also gives attack. When doing math against 500 def mobs af2+2 didn't win but I assumed 150 str which is only possible with minuet and boost str.

well it give 3-4 att but athos gives 1-2acc. Its close but there is a chance that 3 dex can give you 3 base damage and 7 STR only 1 base damage. This chance is small but exist :)
12-27-2011, 04:49 AM
MarkovChain

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cursed

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

I thought so after realising SP was about as good as VS but then I checked KKK and PUP MA trait on the test server and it seems that some idiots have been spreading bullshit for a while about base trait values. I'm getting 5.0 tp per hit without weapon or store TP. I wonder if they are actually correct for MNK.
12-27-2011, 06:20 AM
MarkovChain

apprently MA value are wrong on the test server so nvm
12-27-2011, 08:35 PM
MarkovChain

Ok another test on VS crit rate, this time using brews and one shotting mobs. For this I lower limestone hares HP enough with one inch punch then it gives me some pause during which I can't TP then after 2 ticks the brew gives me 100+ TP and I can one shot. This method usually allows at most one melee rounds before VS goes off ( I'm spamming the macro) so I'm WSing often with arounds 115 tps or less and sometimes 130 ish.

With RR/GH/thrashing trendills : in theory I have a 85% crit rate form atmas and dex buffs. I did plenty of Victory smite, and had to wait a while to see a non crit but it happened anyway. I was PUP/NIN (432 skill, D+39) with brew and saw a 3048 damage from VS with 5 tp return. It's not possible that this would come from the crit of a secondary hit because

1*( floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+0.85*0.6*999 )*3.15*1.3=2499,...
So It's necessarily on the first hit. It's therefore a non crit (I have ~ 1.7 pdif on this 3048 dmg ws).
So it shows that the native crit rate on VS is < 15%.

To confirm I have done the same with RR+GH+SS (75% base crit) and got a handful of 11 tp return WS even though I would WS below 50%, which shows that the first hit didn't crit.

Since I had to do 40+ VS to get a gimp damage with RR+GH+TT I'm guessing it's only 10%.
12-27-2011, 10:08 PM
Motenten

Post by Mocchi on the JP side of the official forums gives this info (won't be translated to the EN side for a while since they're all on vacation):

Quote:

•ウッコフューリー Ukko
【調整前の状態】30%／50%／80%
　↓
【テストサーバー】15%／25%／40%
　
•ビクトリースマイト Smite
【調整前の状態】15%／30%／60%
　↓
【テストサーバー】10%／20%／35%

Full original post here.

Shows the old and new crit scaling values for Smite and Ukkos at 100/200/300 TP. Confirms the 10% Markov tested.

Looks like a 3.5%-4% reduction in overall damage at the usual usage at ~100 TP, and a 12%-16% reduction at 300 TP.
12-28-2011, 12:33 AM
Cream_Soda

For curiosity's sake, how much reduction is that for war?
12-28-2011, 04:05 AM
Motenten

@100 TP: 2355 > 2105, 11% reduction (~6% overall DPS)
@300 TP: 3404 > 2757, 19% reduction

Can't give a proper value for overall DPS reduction for 300 TP since that's usually dependent on unusual factors.
12-28-2011, 04:35 AM
Cream_Soda

Ewwwww ouch
12-28-2011, 04:43 AM
Motenten

Oh, and Raging Rush for same target/gear setup: 1791 @100 TP, 2459 @300 TP. So Ukko's is (after nerf) 17.5% better at 100 TP and 12% better at 300 TP. Of course Ukko gets you the ODD aftermath as well (which is also significantly more powerful than the Vere version), so there's still a solid edge over RR.
12-29-2011, 10:01 PM
Dfoley

Didnt see this posted here but in JP a few days ago they announced the offical nerf.

ukkos Fury
30% / 50% / 80% [unadjusted state]
　↓
[Test Server] 15% / 25% / 40%
　
Victory Smite
15% / 30% / 60% [unadjusted state ]
　↓
[Test Server] 10% / 20% / 35%

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...787#post252787
12-29-2011, 10:02 PM
MarkovChain

It's been posted 4 posts above you...
12-29-2011, 10:30 PM
Glacont

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motenten

@100 TP: 2355 > 2105, 11% reduction (~6% overall DPS)
@300 TP: 3404 > 2757, 19% reduction

Can't give a proper value for overall DPS reduction for 300 TP since that's usually dependent on unusual factors.

I am in a rush to make it to work, so I'll make this breif. First off, Thank You Motenten for providing the Ukko numbers and for the follow up post on how The Warrior stands with Raging Rush. I am grateful for your attempt to make it seem not so bad, but from My stand point it is. Since I am press for time, I'll use comic books as an example.

You take the Hulk whose only true power is strength and [Physical brute force. As he gets angery his strength contniues to increase (Much like WAR with Jas)]. Hulk is at the head of the table for Damage dealing. Now, You reduce his overall one strength, brute force, 3 times he is no longer The Hulk [Green skin/ bulk size/ increase str etc] He is Mr. Fix-it [The Grey Hulk. Weaker and smaller in size] Sure Mr. Fix-it can still deal damge but he is not the same. Now Thor and Herucles take his chair.

I really need to go, so I'll end this here.

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