Requiescat <3

Rdm healing is fine on old content if properly geared for it and not swinging away with an incorrect subjob.

You know, like something people killed at 75.

I wonder where you'd find a mob like that.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Rdm healing is fine on old content if properly geared for it and not swinging away with an incorrect subjob.

You know, like something people killed at 75.

I wonder where you'd find a mob like that.

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Sub has absolutely ZERO to do with cure potency. RDM/WAR heals for the same as RDM/WHM and RDM/BRD.

It's just
Cure IV
Cure IV
Cure IV

We don't have anything else. And if your using a RDM as a main healer then you've already failed.

Plus that entire line of arguments is a trap designed to prevent a RDM from ~ever~ meleeing. It places blame for any and all problems on a single job and ignores all other circumstances. If a particular melee decides they don't want the RDM to ever melee, all they need to do is suicide themselves and then blame the RDM. Any DD worth their weapon can pull hate whenever they want and keep that hate by simply smashing every offensive ability they have. They can also refuse to use any defensive / damage reduction abilities / gear and see how long their healers cure capacity lasts.

Which goes on to a very important factor that all the brain dead idiots are forgetting. Healing isn't just measured in the size of the cure but in the amount of HP per second you can restore. Cure IV + Cure III isn't very much HPPS, Cure V + IV / VI (*shudder*) is much higher and Fruit + Embrace + Cure IV is on par with V + IV spam.

So the day the DD's blame the BLU for not curing them is the day I'll accept the "it's always the RDM's fault" argument.

-=Edit=-
Grammar

No I'm still poking fun at the subjob, you can happily ignore the point about gearing for it.

Rdm is just fine support healing and even main healing some old content.


Holy crap you went on a tangent while this pug was dying. There's nothing wrong with meleeing on old content oor weaker mobs but if you're needed for support do your job. And if you're going to melee for the love of Altana don't be dumb and /war on Rdm. It's cool for most other one handers bar bst because they either get dw while /war or in the case of prd get awesome shields. Rdm can't do either.

If your DD are going balls to the wall and dropping like flies either get better DD, or reevaluate your support.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

He edited out the screenshot, but when I looked over it the other day I didn't really see anyone I knew - which can be good or bad, but is probably a bad thing if you're wondering why an Empyrean WS isn't breaking 2k on Chlevnik at 99.

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It's one of those things where the answer is known, but that answer is so horrible that I must recoil and question things all the same. Similar to "He built that bicycle out of the twenty-seven children he murdered?!" or "Were you really drunk enough to poop in the sink while vomiting in the bathtub, bro?!"

Seeing as one of the wars looked to be fulltiming twilight head/mail... on Chlevnik... I can easily see ukko's in TP gear doing 2k.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No I'm still poking fun at the subjob, you can happily ignore the point about gearing for it.

Rdm is just fine support healing and even main healing some old content.


Holy crap you went on a tangent while this pug was dying. There's nothing wrong with meleeing on old content oor weaker mobs but if you're needed for support do your job. And if you're going to melee for the love of Altana don't be dumb and /war on Rdm. It's cool for most other one handers bar bst because they either get dw while /war or in the case of prd get awesome shields. Rdm can't do either.

If your DD are going balls to the wall and dropping like flies either get better DD, or reevaluate your support.

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RDM is fine as support healer, it's what I do all the time. And yes /WAR is a horrible sub now for any Hybrid RDM, better to be /DRK because at least then you get some utility out of it. Two current favorites are /NIN and /DNC depending on what I'm doing. /SCH for pure support mode when it's called for.

I know it seems a bit much, but I've seen this argument ~way~ to often. It's the DD analog to the "RDM gives the monster +300 defense, +80% haste, +10 levels and -20 TH" argument that gets used. Basically that "any RDM meleeing for any reason will always make the situation worse then if said RDM was standing on the side with their light staff shoved where the sun don't shine casting Cure IV". It's an argument that deliberately over generalizes and appeals to people's desire to accept the simplest reasoning presented to support their own beliefs. And cousin to the argument of "RDM melee is situational, it's useful in any situation I'm not part of".

I'm just cutting it off before it goes anywhere else.

Depends on the player, I certainly wouldn't trust any random swinging away on a job better at standing in the back most of the time. If you can do it and not be a detriment/stupid about it then sure.

If you're actually casting cures, refreshes, and hastes where needed, your overall damage is going to take an epic shit.

Most Red Mages who put a sword on choose to ignore those responsibilities in order to deal more melee damage, which I'm sure we can agree isn't exactly top of the line even under the best conditions.

You're going to have to realize that most melee Red Mages are epic shit, and whenever you say that Red Mage can still cure from the front lines it's something that you'll have to live up to in practice. Yes, you can do it, but it takes a large toll on your total damage count if you're actually keeping up with all of your duties even as a secondary mage.

At that point, yes, on many things you will simply add more to your own workload by taking damage that you have to cure - sometimes, that can even lead to unnecessary deaths or damage because you're having to cure yourself where you could be curing a melee instead. Worse, a proper mage might have to heal you rather than healing a melee, a distinct waste of resources.

It's not just Red Mage that gets allocated to the sidelines in group play, it's any front line job that takes out more than it puts in by being up front. Anything that's safe for a Puppetmaster to engage is safe for a Red Mage to engage. That's about as simple as it can be put.

With that said, I hope that you actually keep stock of your support duties on the front line. You can sit here and preach all you want about how being in sword range doesn't stop you from casting, but it means very little if you don't actually cast. And yes, contrary to the vitriol you spew all over these forums, Red Mages do cast more than Cure 4 and Dia 3. Of course, you wouldn't have access to a good deal of spells with Ninja or, heaven forbid, Dark Knight sub, so you're automatically less useful there. Or did you forget the part where everything worth fighting slams every status effect in the game on you pretty much 24/7?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Depends on the player, I certainly wouldn't trust any random swinging away on a job better at standing in the back most of the time. If you can do it and not be a detriment/stupid about it then sure.

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That's the part I disagree with. We're so good at "standing in the back" that we've been declared a dead useless job. Anything your doing in the back as RDM you can do better as a WHM. The time of playing RDM like it's just another WHM-2 was over the moment SE declared RDM wouldn't be getting Cure V. For a couple of years now they've been pushing a hybrid play style that the player base has been stupidly slow at experimenting with. Maybe if people would stop trying to invent new arguments that are just rehash's of old arguments from 2005, and actually try to do hybrid they would see it's actually useful.

RDM has an immense amount of versatility. It's not perfect at any one role but it has access to so many simultaneously. Yes there are times when you need to sit your happy a$$ in the back, and just as often there are times when you need to be upfront. To refuse to do either is not playing to your fullest potential.

I encounter those situation less than you then. Then again I only use Rdm on old content and VW anyway... and I certainly don't trust the groups I go with to even think about swinging, unless I wanted to try and embarrass someone by going 'dude you got outdamaged by my Rdm'

Don't even pull the "If you're standing in the back, you should be on WHM" card.

If you're pulling out a weapon, you should be on Warrior, Monk, Samurai, or Corsair.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Red Mages do cast more than Cure 4 and Dia 3. You need to cast Erase too!

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Is there any particular reason why you're always playing wing-man to Neisan? I swear you two must be conjoined at the hip or something.

It's impossible to share similar views, I agree. (Even I like to melee on Rdm sometimes but I'm practical about it; no matter how much I improve my gear for it it'll be subpar but goddamn I'm not halfassing and making myself look and/or feel worse about it.)


And so I can embarrass someone with the aforementioned line.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

Is there any particular reason why you're always playing wing-man to Neisan? I swear you two must be conjoined at the hip or something.

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I dunno. I just took a lot of heat on these boards, what, a week ago? Because I supposedly didn't agree with anyone at all. It really has to be one or the other. I'm getting confused.

Seriously though, we just happen to share similar viewpoints and a similar lack of shit to do in our free time.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Don't even pull the "If you're standing in the back, you should be on WHM" card.

If you're pulling out a weapon, you should be on Warrior, Monk, Samurai, or Corsair.

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If you're doing anything, you shouldn't be a RDM. That is the plain truth of it.

I've just completely stopped playing RDM with other people because it's obvious that it isn't as good at anything as anyone else is in a group. You want to have a good time and solo some stuff slow because you like RDM, go for it. I still do, it's still loads of fun. But please don't tell me that anyone of you actually thinks a RDM beats a WHM, a BLM, a WAR, or a BLU at anything that those jobs do.

There is no synergy between the 3 subjobs that SE smushed together to make RDM. The class by it's very inception and statistics is capable of doing nothing that others can't do better. Your highest weapon proficiency is a B, your highest damaging magic proficiency is a C+, your spell selection is inferior across the board, you only A ranked skill is crippled in the current end game, your job traits/abilities are dwarfed by other mages, your enspell upgrade is a downgrade, and your weapon skill choices are bad. If you aren't aware of this, you haven't been paying attention.

As a job, it's defining characteristic is it's exceptional ability to take punishment, both in game and on forums. SE will not fix RDM to do anything useful, because they think it is well off and a very powerful job.

Sorry other sword users about Requiescat, apparently RDM is too powerful to get a decent multi-hit WS that doesn't have an attack penalty on it.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

If you're doing anything, you shouldn't be a RDM. That is the plain truth of it.

I've just completely stopped playing RDM with other people because it's obvious that it isn't as good at anything as anyone else is in a group. You want to have a good time and solo some stuff slow because you like RDM, go for it. I still do, it's still loads of fun. But please don't tell me that anyone of you actually thinks a RDM beats a WHM, a BLM, a WAR, or a BLU at anything that those jobs do.

There is no synergy between the 3 subjobs that SE smushed together to make RDM. The class by it's very inception and statistics is capable of doing nothing that others can't do better. Your highest weapon proficiency is a B, your highest damaging magic proficiency is a C+, your spell selection is inferior across the board, you only A ranked skill is crippled in the current end game, your job traits/abilities are dwarfed by other mages, your enspell upgrade is a downgrade, and your weapon skill choices are bad. If you aren't aware of this, you haven't been paying attention.

As a job, it's defining characteristic is it's exceptional ability to take punishment, both in game and on forums. SE will not fix RDM to do anything useful, because they think it is well off and a very powerful job.

Sorry other sword users about Requiescat, apparently RDM is too powerful to get a decent multi-hit WS that doesn't have an attack penalty on it.

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Legitimacy of RDM as a job aside, since that's a different discussion entirely. I'm always playing on RDM now, only times I change are when we're doing Abyssea and then I'm usually on WAR for procs and damage. Playing it in the hybrid fashion is amazingly fun and I've been doing it for a long time. It's also very effective, particularly in small group scenarios. I've managed to convince people who were 100% adamant that melee was a "toy" that is can be quite useful, provided the RDM in question has both the gear and the multitasking ability for it. And ultimately that's the single greatest weakness and something that nothing SE can do will fix. Players want to play jobs and class's that have singular focus's. They want simple rather straightforward design's, whack things to death, blow things up to death, play medic, or act as the unmovable brick wall. Personally just wish people would stop with all the hate and acid.

And back on topic,
Req sucks due to the -20% attack penalty on jobs that don't usually have high attack to begin with. CDC users don't even need to consider it, non-CDC BLU's and PLD's should stick with Vorpal, non-CDC RDM's are just SoL.

The attack penalty isn't the only reason that Requiescat sucks to be honest, but it is a major reason.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Don't even pull the "If you're standing in the back, you should be on WHM" card.

If you're pulling out a weapon, you should be on Warrior, Monk, Samurai, or Corsair.

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More like, if you're going to be pulling out a weapon, you should be procing. Leave the damage to the rangers, thanks! Adaman bullets destroy things.

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Originally Posted by Prothscar

The attack penalty isn't the only reason that Requiescat sucks to be honest, but it is a major reason.

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i still feel like if it was gone we could at least work with req though. i don't need nor want it to beat cdc, but if it can beat death blossom at least, it'll be a step in the right direction (for rdm anyway)

of course i feel like it SHOULD beat vorpal blade to, so jobs other than rdm would have a use for it and then rdm would finally have a native ws better than vorpal blade..

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Originally Posted by saevel

Said like someone from 2008.

Something you might not of noticed lately, RDM isn't exactly capable of healing much. Especially a DD going ZOMG DIE DIE DIE DIE without regards to the damage their taking.

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Originally Posted by saevel

RDM is fine as support healer, it's what I do all the time. And yes /WAR is a horrible sub now for any Hybrid RDM, better to be /DRK because at least then you get some utility out of it. Two current favorites are /NIN and /DNC depending on what I'm doing. /SCH for pure support mode when it's called for.
.

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You know sitting back and letting ppl put their foot in the mouth is so much fun. Support healing is still healing. And even a Cure IV is better than letting a DD go down on the front line with a lame excuse that RDM is or isn't any good at doing it. A Cure IV can be more than enough to keep a guy up til the WHM can get to them.

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

You know sitting back and letting ppl put their foot in the mouth is so much fun. Support healing is still healing. And even a Cure IV is better than letting a DD go down on the front line with a lame excuse that RDM is or isn't any good at doing it. A Cure IV can be more than enough to keep a guy up til the WHM can get to them.

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Main Healer =/= Support Healer.

RDM's can toss out Cure IV's to sprinkle HP around. They will be capable of healing that guy who just got hit hard but isn't in danger of dieing in the near future. They will NOT be capable of preventing the death of the guy who the monster has taken a desire to killing. The recast on Cure IV is such that a NM is capable of dealing much more damage then you are capable of healing in the same time period. A WHM or a BLU will be capable of keeping said individual alive, and sometimes not even they can work miracles.

Now we all know your just trolling to stir sh1t up. Goes back to your original comment that the RDM must obviously be the problem for some WAR wearing twilight.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Main Healer =/= Support Healer.

RDM's can toss out Cure IV's to sprinkle HP around. They will be capable of healing that guy who just got hit hard but isn't in danger of dieing in the near future. They will NOT be capable of preventing the death of the guy who the monster has taken a desire to killing. The recast on Cure IV is such that a NM is capable of dealing much more damage then you are capable of healing in the same time period. A WHM or a BLU will be capable of keeping said individual alive, and sometimes not even they can work miracles.

Now we all know your just trolling to stir sh1t up. Goes back to your original comment that the RDM must obviously be the problem for some WAR wearing twilight.

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It was a joke, you miss it. I'm done with this.

The original context was as a support healer. He specified a scenario in which there was a White Mage in the party as well, leaving the Red Mage on not-main-healing duty. But of course you barrel through details in order to maintain your single-minded narrative saevel. It's what you always do.

"Cure IV won't make a difference so I won't even bother casting it. Oh well, more time for me to swing my sword."

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Originally Posted by cidbahamut

The original context was as a support healer. He specified a scenario in which there was a White Mage in the party as well, leaving the Red Mage on not-main-healing duty. But of course you barrel through details in order to maintain your single-minded narrative saevel. It's what you always do.

"Cure IV won't make a difference so I won't even bother casting it. Oh well, more time for me to swing my sword."

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Thank you,

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Originally Posted by tyrantsyn

You know sitting back and letting ppl put their foot in the mouth is so much fun. Support healing is still healing. And even a Cure IV is better than letting a DD go down on the front line with a lame excuse that RDM is or isn't any good at doing it. A Cure IV can be more than enough to keep a guy up til the WHM can get to them.

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For sure. The ASSUMPTION is that you have a WHM instead of pretending a RDM is a main healer. If you don't cure at all on a RDM and you aren't watching others, then you really aren't playing anything.

An Almace is great, but it hardly makes up for not being an actual DD. Just like Cure IV is great, but it hardly makes you a main healer. Without appropriate job abilities and traits that synergize the job, you really can't expect most people to take RDM that seriously. The job is/and most likely will always be limited to being 2nd best at everything.

I would be fine with being second best that if Rdm actually was second best...

I suppose I'll wait until someone tests what the enhances effects on Relic+2 is.

My money is on DoT/duration for Dia because SE is a dick like that.

Anyone who gets the head+3 before me is welcome to replicate my Greater Colibri testing Here to determine if there is, in fact, any potency bonus.

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Originally Posted by ManaKing

For sure. The ASSUMPTION is that you have a WHM instead of pretending a RDM is a main healer. If you don't cure at all on a RDM and you aren't watching others, then you really aren't playing anything.

An Almace is great, but it hardly makes up for not being an actual DD. Just like Cure IV is great, but it hardly makes you a main healer. Without appropriate job abilities and traits that synergize the job, you really can't expect most people to take RDM that seriously. The job is/and most likely will always be limited to being 2nd best at everything.

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More like forth, behind BLU (all) and SCH (magically)

You guys are complaining about what jobs someone should be and act like they shouldn't be something less effective. Why? If you log on to have fun, who cares? If the alliance didn't care, why would any of you? Sometimes it is incredibly rewarding to play outside of the box in that you have fun.

if you want to melee on rdm then get an almace. then level Blue mage because it's WAY better. Rdm was an awesome solo job (kiting or melee) until blue mage could solo hard NMs. this happened around level 85. if you want to play like rdm used to, LEVEL NIN.

Rdm has a good niche right now, its not worthless. Go to Voidwatch! you will mostly cast Addle, Slow2, and Paralyze (whenever it works, i think never). Blind will often land and Bio3/Dia3 can help a little too. Mostly though you're a proc whore. and Rdm is really good at this because of its huge Fast Cast and you can even Nuke during Blitz time.

also you can help heal so your alliance doesnt whipe. you can raise so the whm doesnt waste an hour trying to cast raise while the pld is dieing. and you can throw haste/refresh2/protect/shell when needed. i spend most of my time working on triggers and only throw refresh2 on the whm (unless im in pld party). but please dont melee in Voidwatch!!

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

Rdm has a good niche right now, its not worthless. Go to Voidwatch! you will mostly cast Addle, Slow2, and Paralyze (whenever it works, i think never). Blind will often land and Bio3/Dia3 can help a little too. Mostly though you're a proc whore. and Rdm is really good at this because of its huge Fast Cast and you can even Nuke during Blitz time.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

Blind will often land and Bio3/Dia3 can help a little too.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

Bio3/Dia3 can help a little too.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

[SIZE="6"]Bio3[/SIZE]

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Get out. text

Well now that it's been shown that Req ignores all PDT / Physical Shielding it does have a decent function. It'll be useful on NMs that like to screw you over. Damage won't be that great, but it'll be better then resisted Vorpals / CDC.

It could possibly see some use by Paladins on some of the bigger "Screw you" T6 Jeuno NMs like Botulus. Those tend to be really, really nasty though, so I'd really question either of the other sword users using it to much effect on those mobs - or even being present/in range at all.

Honestly, the biggest endgame use I see for this WS for rdm/blu is knocking out Pil's shield.

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Originally Posted by Defiledsickness

PINK MAGE!!!!!!

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Idk what to say but not really interested in doing nothing. Kinda takes away the point of playing a well rounded class if you just sit on the side lines and play a portion of it....

I don't melee all the time, but I don't kite when I solo. I just take 25 minutes to solo things with a sword. It's fun.

There is nothing fun about playing a traditional WHM. It's just a necessary job. Why would playing a worse version of that be something anyone is interested in?

Ok we need more testing on this.

Today we decided to go screw around in sea and start building a pop set for JoL / AV. Did Jailer of Temperance . Now those that have done sea before know that JoT has different "modes" where he's only vulnerable to specific damage types.

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With rings out, only vulnerable to Slashing damage.
With poles out, only vulnerable to Piercing damage.
With nothing out, only vulnerable to Blunt damage.

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So while it's got poles out, I decide to use Req to bypass it's damage resistance, and low and behold Req did exactly 0 damage. This immediately raised red flags because isn't Req supposed to bypass those resistances, that was kinda the entire point of the WS. SE even made a statement that they weren't going to change the -20% attack due to it bypassing those very same resistances I just ran into.

Next time I'm in Dyna Tav I'm going to pull a PLD mob and do Req during Invincible and see what happens. I was taking someone's word before that it bypassed that. Anyone else have actual experience with this WS vs damage resistances?

I'll go play in Dynamis while I'm farming and see if I can specifically target some PLDs. I'm not 100% if they are even in Dynamis-Valkurm, but if they are, ill test it.

Could just chase down one of the campaign NMs if you don't want to burn a dynamis run.

Already burned, got some feet to drop for me though so overall it was a profitable run.

To answer the Question: Yes. Requiescat goes through a PLDs Invincible. It still hit for the same damage as normal, which is underwhelming vs. a PLD mob.

Ok thanks. Now to test it vs more things we run into. The only thing worthwhile is that it is supposed to work on those NM's that have crazy weird resistances and say "screw you" to things like CDC / Vorpal / Evis. If it's only conditionally working then I might demerit it and put those instead into Stardiver or something.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Ok we need more testing on this.

Today we decided to go screw around in sea and start building a pop set for JoL / AV. Did Jailer of Temperance . Now those that have done sea before know that JoT has different "modes" where he's only vulnerable to specific damage types.



So while it's got poles out, I decide to use Req to bypass it's damage resistance, and low and behold Req did exactly 0 damage. This immediately raised red flags because isn't Req supposed to bypass those resistances, that was kinda the entire point of the WS. SE even made a statement that they weren't going to change the -20% attack due to it bypassing those very same resistances I just ran into.

Next time I'm in Dyna Tav I'm going to pull a PLD mob and do Req during Invincible and see what happens. I was taking someone's word before that it bypassed that. Anyone else have actual experience with this WS vs damage resistances?

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To me it seems like it's basically the Twilight Scythe style damage, in that it only goes through crap like Invincible and Stoneskin. It doesn't even go through turtle defense which was supposed to be the type it was.