One million limit points for a sidegrade? What is the Dev Team's logic behind this?

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Originally Posted by Kimikryo

20 Minutes to unlock? wth? how do you get 300 points in 20 minutes including getting the nm?

considering you need to be at least 35X weaponskill, a lot of ppl will whine that they dont get them when there skill isnt even capped at level 30

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though 20 minutes might be understating the whole quest, in abyssea with a partner with all regain atmas, it only takes about 20 minutes to finish the points

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.

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If only this was true!

As it stands for axe: Decimation<Cloudsplitter<Primal Rend<Ruinator<Rampage (Wassup level 175 natural skill ws, King of the Hill, forever and ever, amen).

I'm still waiting to be rewarded for the wsnm quest and unlocking my mythic (Farsha is a waste of time, working on Guttler because it's a straight up better axe). I was hoping getting another 1,000,000 xp and putting it into Ruinator would actually give me a better ws than Rampage, no matter how belated it was.

Ruinator isn't even a sidegrade. It's straight up inferior, considering i've put the effort into getting the gear and merits to make it do "large amounts of damage" (dev's words, not mine). Would you really pay for something inferior to something you had already, even if you found money insanely easy to get? That's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

it's actually only 3

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Yeah, my mind was still only 20 so it didn't see 25 for the first 2. lol

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Originally Posted by svengalis

Who do you have pulling for you where you can get that much exp that fast?

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Thf mostly, but sometimes pld. Altep page 1 caps at 5100 per page, mobs cap at 670, that's over 8k per pull.

I won't labour the point. It's obvious that Team XI haven't balanced their WSs well, and this is probably because they are reluctant to overpower anyone because this will mean they have to bring in masses of more difficult content. But as far as these particular WSs go, they are easy-peasy for anyone to get, so for me it makes sense that they are only fairly powerful.

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

But as far as these particular WSs go, they are easy-peasy for anyone to get, so for me it makes sense that they are only fairly powerful.

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Rampage: Skill axe to 175
Ruinator: Skill axe to 357 (yes there is a minimum skill for them), burn 100 merit points.....keep using Rampage.

That's true, I forgot about the minimum skill level required.

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

A can guarantee you with all the new competition for levelling and meriting these WS, that your speed of xp gain will drop considreably over the next month or so.

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And then pick up again a month or two later when people have had their fill.

Open question: Does anyone actually enjoy this game? You people sure do complain a lot.

Capping ability upgrades for one stat back in the old days was 45 merit points, when getting 20,000 an hour was extraordinary. Now you get 4 to 5 times that much, and this 100 merit points is a smidge over half that. Heck, I did Bostaneiux Oubliette book burn a few days ago and was getting like 95k an hour, and that was average. Capping one new weapon skill is something you can do in an afternoon.

Maybe that's the dev team's logic; that something that doesn't take all that much effort to get shouldn't be all that great.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

Open question: Does anyone actually enjoy this game? You people sure do complain a lot.

Capping ability upgrades for one stat back in the old days was 45 merit points, when getting 20,000 an hour was extraordinary. Now you get 4 to 5 times that much, and this 100 merit points is a smidge over half that. Heck, I did Bostaneiux Oubliette book burn a few days ago and was getting like 95k an hour, and that was average. Capping one new weapon skill is something you can do in an afternoon

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REGARDLESS of the amount of merits it takes, its rather silly that a level 99, 350+ skill WS is about the same, if not worse, then a WS you get at level 60 and 200 skill.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

REGARDLESS of the amount of merits it takes, its rather silly that a level 99, 350+ skill WS is about the same, if not worse, then a WS you get at level 60 and 200 skill.

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That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

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Actually, this would be a good thing to happen to many Relic and Mythic weapons and many people who wield them. Shijin Spiral is a huge boon for anyone with shiny gold Spharai, for example. Ruinator could have been the same for every super-special Axe in existance before it was adjusted.

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

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Are you sure you've been reading all the threads talking about the new ws and reading them well? No one is asking for them to be top-tiered ws (well, except where the relic/mythic/empyrean is just balls, like axe), we're asking for some measure of progression when compared to ws that were obtained in 50-60 level.

Lots of posters ask calmly and politely for explanations. The Devs address the posts they want to address whether it's furious indignation or gentle prodding.

What I want from the devs is PROGRESSION, not this sidegrade nonsense which was evident a level cap before the maximum limit. The abilities, adjustments, and weapon skills accompanying this update should have been mind-blowing...not ho-hum bullshit.

I also want a little excitement when it comes to updates. I've been playing this game for 8+ years and update days used to feel like Christmas. I'm just not feeling it this update and I didn't feel it last update either. My files are all downloaded and yet I'm not online yet because I'd rather transcribe historical documents for work rather than deal with the overcrowding on mobs and the limit break bc. It'll be there this weekend...next week...whenever. A year ago I would have been all over logging on lickity-split on update day, now its meh.

That's not the feeling you should want to cultivate in a paying player base.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

Are you sure you've been reading all the threads talking about the new ws and reading them well? No one is asking for them to be top-tiered ws (well, except where the relic/mythic/empyrean is just balls, like axe), we're asking for some measure of progression when compared to ws that were obtained in 50-60 level.

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I get confused on this point. Are we talking about Standard WSs that would be attained around that level from skilling up? Or are we talking about Quested WSs that you can obtain at around those levels with sufficient help. If it is the latter then the level range is erroneous, and it should be the fact that these new WSs are easy to get that defines their usefulness.

I'm talking about compared to natural skill wses. But in the case of axe, an improvement, like ever, over rampage would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Buffy

Yes. There is nothing hard in the game anymore, I'm bored.

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Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

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Originally Posted by Rohelius

Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

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Right, go play solo in an "MMO".

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Right, go play solo in an "MMO".

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http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../66/BSTJOB.jpg

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

I get confused on this point. Are we talking about Standard WSs that would be attained around that level from skilling up? Or are we talking about Quested WSs that you can obtain at around those levels with sufficient help. If it is the latter then the level range is erroneous, and it should be the fact that these new WSs are easy to get that defines their usefulness.

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If they are no better then the ones we use at 55-60 then how are they useful at all? Just another pointless useless ws there just because of level increase.

I say the same thing they keep giving players these weapon skills and we only have one useful one. How many weapon skills do you have on any job sir? How many do you use? See the problem?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Ahhh yes, but there is not cap on trolling. Some people like these weapon skills despite how shitty they are, and all the nonsense excuses about balance because they give them endless enjoyment from their favorite part of the game: pissing people off in internet forums.

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Last Stand isn't shitty, neither is Apex Arrow, Resolution, Ruinator, Upheaval Shijin Spiral or Extenterator. they are all the most powerful WS in their class outside of relic/emp WS. And in the case of Last Stand it actually outperforms Wildfire under normal circumstances (as in you haven't gimped yourself with MAB/INT/+Fire atmas)

Stardiver does slightly lower damage on weak enemies than Drakesbane, but on the other hand it doesn't have negative berserk like Drakesbane so it does much better on high level enemies. Yes that's right Drakesbane has -20% attack, apparently it's had this for years and people only recently discovered it. So Stardiver isn't as useless as people first thought.

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Originally Posted by Aldersyde

I'm talking about compared to natural skill wses. But in the case of axe, an improvement, like ever, over rampage would be nice.

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Ruinator is an improvement over Rampage. Rampage will once in a blue moon spike higher but overall Ruinator's damage with be consistently higher. I know this first hand because I tried it on the test server.

There was a discrepancy in my estamates I forgot to account for. @99 page 1 altep is only 1-2 stars, so 2k per page is missing.

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Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull

Ruinator is an improvement over Rampage. Rampage will once in a blue moon spike higher but overall Ruinator's damage with be consistently higher. I know this first hand because I tried it on the test server.

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You will forgive me if I don't rush out and spend 1,000,000 xp on a weapon skill simply based on your anecdotal evidence. Run tests with an acceptable sample size and prove it to me with math.

You're asking the wrong person to provide any proof, lol.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

You're asking the wrong person to provide any proof, lol.

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How about taking it from a Community Rep?

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

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Now I don't know how high the chance of critical hits is with Rampage, but it shouldn't exceed 50% at 100 TP, including base rate and merit upgrades (Evisceration has 25% for example). This isn't accounting for dDEX bonus, but you won't get much on any kind of relevant content anyway. So unless they're lying, Ruinator will be noticeably better on average. Not game-breakingly better, but definitely noticeably. The only question now is whether or not they are capable of actually doing the math and implementing the WS as they said they would.

Well, I rather believe what reliable people who have done testing have to say than a community rep. So far, from their testing, axe ws isnt all that great, nor is it better.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

Really?

Typical poser adding nothing to a discussion that affects all of us.

This whole balance crusade really is starting to grate on my nerves. Were those weapon skills left alone, 100 points would be justifiable if only for the opportunity to rack up cruor. The way things stand now, the only motivation I see is amassing cruor. Be sure to thank the nearest Empyrean weapon owner who screamed bloody murder when these weapon skills were tested out initially.

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totally wrong: the only WS that was tested to be always better than (a good) empy WS is shoha and wasn't nerfed. some of the WS was nerfed to be NOT BETTER THAN lvl 60 AUTO LEARNED WSes, multi hit WS have the <1ftp on all hits, some attack penality...

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Originally Posted by Brolic

it's actually only 3

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i count 4: 10+15=>20=>25=>30
use your old merit for stat before unlocking those

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Originally Posted by Jackstin

I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.

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do you realy think 1M xp is easier/take less time than 300WS and a lvl75NM?
we don't ask em to be UBBER but better than WS we used for 6years:
order should be skill<trial<nyzul/merit<empy/relic, some weapon still have the skill WS as their best(or best not relic/empy)

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Originally Posted by Tsukino_Kaji

There was a discrepancy in my estamates I forgot to account for. @99 page 1 altep is only 1-2 stars, so 2k per page is missing.

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sync to lvl90

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Originally Posted by Arcon

How about taking it from a Community Rep?

Now I don't know how high the chance of critical hits is with Rampage, but it shouldn't exceed 50% at 100 TP, including base rate and merit upgrades (Evisceration has 25% for example). This isn't accounting for dDEX bonus, but you won't get much on any kind of relevant content anyway. So unless they're lying, Ruinator will be noticeably better on average. Not game-breakingly better, but definitely noticeably. The only question now is whether or not they are capable of actually doing the math and implementing the WS as they said they would.

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If I take their word for it and assume the change is either exactly as described or mirrors the change to Realmrazer, than Ruinator either has a ~40% attack penalty or a total fTP of ~2.4 since it has been adjusted.

I'll begrudgingly admit it can be kicked and beaten and gorgeted into a pretty good weaponskill if the fTP was the bit changed, but I'm still annoyed. It was a long, long way from out-performing the epic weaponskills of 2011 and I'm not sure why it had to be squashed down to be closer to Rampage. Even before the changes, Rampage was probably the better choice inside Abyssea.

Maybe it's the spirit of the matter, since balancing something against Rampage makes me feel like the development team still thinks it's 2004 and we're fighting Decorative Weapons.

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Originally Posted by Kimble

Well, I rather believe what reliable people who have done testing have to say than a community rep. So far, from their testing, axe ws isnt all that great, nor is it better.

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Could I get a link to some tests that have gone down since the adjustment(s) to Ruinator, please? I've been looking all over but can't find anything recent enough to post-date the changes.

I was really looking forward to new good Axe weaponskill and I absolutely love the throwing animation, so I'm really hopeful it's the fTP that's been changed rather than a huge attack penalty. If that's a case, at least throwing on a belt and a gorget will make it perform well enough and it won't be garbage against anything above Tough.

So lets discuss which WSs need fixed, heres a list I put together in a hurry

Great:
Tachi: Shoha

Good:
Blade: Shun
Exenterator
Resolution
Shattersoul
Last Stand

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

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Originally Posted by Zarchery

That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

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Solutions? I got a bag full of those.

The new WS should have all had the potential to throughly beat their lowbie counterparts, tie with Empyreans at worst or been attached with some added effect utility that made them viable to unlock.

First lets dispel the myth that making these WS too powerful would somehow damage Empyreans/Relic. I leave out Mythic because most of the weaponskills are garbage but that is made up by impressive aftermaths that make up for it. King's Justice may not be that great but when you're able to turn a Conqueror into a Gaxe-flail, you're DPS is going to shoot through the roof for it.

If Upheaval turned out to throughly smoke Ukko's Fury, the ODD aftermath of using the Empyrean WS with the Empyrean would balance off the person with a normal Gaxe using Upheaval. Further, what would stop the Ukon player from simply upgrading to Upheaval and using the weaponskill themselves? You'd have situations where both these WS would see application.

Bravura's Metatron Torment may be weaker than Ukko's and my theoretical Upheaval but the utility aftermath and the break effects make up for the loss of damage and also make using Metatron situational in its application.

The problem is that SE wants to tear down rather than build up. Rather than boosting these WS out of the gate and then going back and tweaking the old WS to have added effects that made them situationally useful like say a cure-potency bonus for using Hexa Strike (which is limited to WHM only anyway) or a pet-crit boost for Rampage (cause BST are now the heir to axes) you wind up with heavy-handed nerfs that make some new WS useless while the word 'balance' is thrown around.

What's amusing is that they had no problems having some merit WS smoke their competition like Dagger, Gun or GKT but others were limited under the guise of balance? Internal consistency who? what?

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Originally Posted by Finuve

So lets discuss which WSs need fixed, heres a list I put together in a hurry

Great:
Tachi: Shoha

Good:
Blade: Shun
Exenterator
Resolution
Shattersoul
Last Stand

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

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What @ bolded

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

What @ bolded

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I said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though

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Originally Posted by Finuve

I said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though

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super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.

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Originally Posted by Brolic

super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.

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if its as good its a problem, it needs to be better than sidewinder, I'll take your word on Shijin, and test server is closed now isnt it? I cant test upheaval again but I could have definitely been wrong on that

Realmrazer
Entropy
Ruinator
Requiescat

these four need fixed badly, they are completely worthless

arguable
Apex Arrow (if it is indeed only as strong as sidewinder)

I don't think Apex Arrowk gets the accuracy penalty that sidewinder gets, so that automatically makes it a better ws

A few are definitely better than you've heard.

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Originally Posted by Finuve

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

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Upheaval is an absolute monster when used under the effect of Mighty Strikes, and does pretty well otherwise. Since any weaponskill that Great Axe/Warrior gains will be situational at this point, that seems good enough to me.

Shijin Spiral looks to be the weaponskill of choice for times when Impetus is down. It has a small attack bonus rather than the standard penalties that come with most of these weaponskills, so that helps a lot.

I can say with confidence that those two are useful.

I'm not sure how much Apex Arrow has been tested, so I'm hesitant to say it's good just from looking at the fTP. My guess is that people complained because they were expecting Apex Arrow to make like Jishnu's Radiance and scrape the anti-life equation into the evil crotch of whatever it was used upon.

good deal SpankWuster, that all makes sense, and Brolic without the accuracy penalty that would be great for apex and enough to qualify it as not needing adjusted

so can we fully narrow it down to just asking for Realmrazer Entropy Ruinator and Requiescat to be adjusted? (and quietus hint hint)

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Originally Posted by Brolic

super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.

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But is it any good for a MNK without Emp/Relic/Mythic?

Vereth Mnk should stick to smite - at least with Impetus up, and anyone without smite should just spam shijin.

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Originally Posted by Sparthos

But is it any good for a MNK without Emp/Relic/Mythic?

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yeah, it is

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Originally Posted by Rohelius

Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

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What is this 2007? Since when in the last few years has a ls been needed to do anything? Even an event like VW which is blatantly forcing 18 man setups upon us has become primarily a pickup event.

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Originally Posted by Finuve

I said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though

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Req is absolutely worthless period. If they would just remove the attack penality (-20%) then it would be inline with Vorpal Blade or slightly stronger depending on your gear and JA / JT. PLD/BLU/RDM aren't exactly known for critical hit bonus and high attack anyway.