Here is your "Playerbase"

Im sorry but zerging a mob down or just trying to survive while a mobs hp goes down isnt strategy. Even if it is hard.

Most mobs in FFXI dont require strategy, but that doesnt mean it has to stay that way. For players to create strategy you have to place obstacles that they can clear in different ways. How the players decide to clear those obstacles is what is strategy.

But guess what, if the best way for your players to overcome the obstacle you put in their path is to put DoTs on the mob and run around for 45 minutes, to try and "One shot" zerg it in 1 minute or die, or try and get the mob stuck or exploit some other glitchy phenomenon in the game then obviously you are not creating a challenging and fun dynamic.

thats why I say have triggers for weaknesses that are only useful if players are coordinating well.

2 person SC trigger >> debuff mob 1 min duration: "no AoE tp moves" (If your melees are good and they can keep trigger happening they can stay on the mob)
Magic Burst trigger >> debuff mob 1 min duration "Magic Burst damage increased by 40%" (again mages have to coordinate with melees, if they can keep MBs happening they keep their bonus)
3 person sc trigger >> debuff mob 1 in duration "Lv 3 Skillchain Damage increased 25%"
Magic Burst on a 3 person SC >> debuff mob 1 min duration "MB damage increased 60%"

all of these buffs arent worth anything if people cant keep the coordination up, but if they can it makes taking down a mob that much easier.

And have specific triggers at "narrow" windows drastically alter NM behavior in some way.

Any of these things promote coordination and teamwork. The better organized you are the easier the mob is. Obviously you can get really complex and maybe need one team in case the trigger is a darkness SC or a light SC etc. Or have some mobs only lock certain AoE moves etc.

Think FFXIII where you had to "stagger" a mob to get a window of doing good damage, VW and synchronic blitz is a step in the right direction. But it should be more complex than just a lucky stagger.

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Originally Posted by saevel

Umm no, neither of those NM's were designed to ever be defeated. They were SE's sick idea of a time sink for players to do.

I remember when the very first AV was killed and it was discovered it had absolutely no loot pool, not even a title. There was no way to lock it's 2hr's, it just spammed them whenever it wanted and as many times as it wanted. Infinite Benediction and Chainspell Meteor II. When that epic long (was it 18hr) PW fight happened, the players could easily damage him. He just kept cycling forms over and over and over again. Kill him four, five, six times, it didn't matter, he had an infinite HP bar basically because it would just refill after each "death".

After we figured out AV had no drop list and was unbeatable unless you abused the AI and a null space location on the map we stopped caring about him. So SE came in and inserted a drop pool and gave that little video. People tried the whole "lock" his 2hrs and it didn't work, he still had infinite benediction / chainspell Meteor II. Then players figured out DRK zerging him with a dozen+ zerglings, so we killed it. But then SE stepped in and stopped that tactic cold. After that we stopped caring. Eventually the media attention from those people getting sick on the 18hr PW fight, when PW would just keep cycling forms forced SE to make their pet NM's actually kill-able. The inserted that 2hr period and suddenly you could lock AV's 2hr abilities and PW would only cycle through his forms once. Still the fights were ridiculously hard. On AV you only had seconds to use benediction after he refilled his HP, and it wasn't guaranteed that it would lock it. If your two to three WHM's failed to lock it then you either wiped or rushed people out to change to WHM to try again. Same with Chainspell. PW required that you have people /logout and use a bunch of zombie BLU's to bring his final form down. Otherwise his 2HR would just keep going off until everyone was dead.

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I see, I didn't know this. Thank you for educating me.^^

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Originally Posted by Mirabelle

This so much!!! All the elitists go into every fight with elite gear, best atmas and abyssites, top weapons, elite "blue box onry" party members, then decry how easy things are to beat.
I've had plenty of challenge in this game largely based on not really caring if I had the best gear or not or if my party members were the best in the game. Basically relied on using sound strategy and team work to get victories. Its made for some fun and challenging fights over the years. And as for Abyssea, yes it got easier as you advanced with gear and atma. But it wasn't easy at the start. It tooks months of slogging to develop a well geared/atma'd job, let alone several jobs. I see nothing wrong with that approach. Its far more rewarding than the endless time sink of VWNM with no quests or stories or variety of activities that Abyssea offered.

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To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

tactics
plural of tac·tic (Noun)
Noun:
An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.
The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations, esp. during contact with an enemy.

Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

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On the other hand, why must "gimp" mean "not entirely min-maxed?"

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Originally Posted by TRiPP

An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

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THROW MOAR SAMURAIS AT IT!!!111!!

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Your ls wasn't blessed by some MMORPG god that allowed you to exceed the power of mere scrubs. Your group worked towards that point by getting better gear, putting effort into leveling proper jobs and merits, and doing research. You (and everyone really) were standing on the backs of people who came before. Yes, you looked for the easiest way to do to it, like most everyone else did. I think the real hypocritical part comes when 'leet groups look down on the 'scrubs' taking 30 minutes to kill a mob, when there was a time your group was likely at the same stage of starting out.

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I am not trying to say that my LS was blessed or that those people were stupid. The first time I killed fafnir we took around 40 minutes to kill, however, this was way before the 2 handed update and things were different. If you try to say it's the same or was as easy then you are full blown crazy. We were doing AA rotations on the paladin and obviously what other LS were doing because pld/nin enimity was shit for VE/CE to hold hate. SE apparently updated it at some point and adjusted it better to make /nin a better choice when tanking. I know several people who used /nin on pld at first and their hate with all their tools did little for help when someone was cure IV. This has apparently been changed by the amount of tools/abilities/adjustments/etc.

I think most of you should do a bit of reading about what exactly being a hypocrite means. Those same people who were taking 30 minutes to kill when my LS was taking mere minutes couldn't kill it when my LS were killing in the same amount of time simply being everyone got adjusted abilities/traits/etc. When elite(as you call my player type) move on to bigger and better HNM and reach a stagnated point what is the point in playing anymore. Why should i log in everyday to do things to enjoy the game if there is nothing left that challenges me and my LS?. That is what happened with most i knew they left because the game got so easy there was nothing to do that was hard.

I suggest they add "some" mobs that challenge my type of player base and you all go off on us like we are snobs and looking down on the rest of you. If casual players want the entire game centered around them only then that is hypocritical and selfish IMO. We just want a few challenges for us with everything we have learned else there is nothing left to do. I enjoy the game but not when the only way i can get a challenge now is to go naked and blindfold myself to fight something.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

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So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

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No idea, I'm not one of those people. I just know they exist and they deserve to have fun in this game too. I'd imagine it'd have to be some kind of monster that changed its game plan once its weaknesses were discovered.

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Originally Posted by Meyi

No idea, I'm not one of those people. I just know they exist and they deserve to have fun in this game too. I'd imagine it'd have to be some kind of monster that changed its game plan once its weaknesses were discovered.

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Munchkins (the proper term for people who over-emphasis min-maxing as a replacement for fun) are impossible to defeat without breaking the rules and dropping bridges, dryers or just hitting them with bolts of lightening.

In the context of a MMORPG the only way to defeat them is to create a scenario where their ultra math crunching and number's manipulation skills aren't of much use. This requires thinking and forethought from content creators, you can't just give a NM 2 million HP because the munchkins will just elevate themselves to defeat it using brute force, or if they fail in doing that then the content is impossible for anyone not a munchkin. Instead you must give boss monsters times weakness's and complex battle design mechanics. Using SC's to lock out specific moves would be a good start. Using timed periods where the NM shifts its weakness over the course of the fight and your required to hit it with WS's aligned with it's weakness to bring it down. Another example would be a NM that has -90% DT, hitting it with a SC break's it's weakness for a period of 10~20s after which it'll change it's SC weakness again. Have a NM that periodically use's mega OMG wipe type moves that it announces through text messages. Upon seeing that announcement you must hit it with a certain amount of damage from a specific element to prevent it from wiping everyone.

All sorts of things are possible if they would just put time into it. But with their skeleton staff they can't do any of this. All their members have been moved to FFXIV, nothing's left to maintain FFXI.

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Originally Posted by saevel

All sorts of things are possible if they would just put time into it.

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You're forgetting another problem with this idea: the time and effort required for the playerbase to figure this out through trial and error. There may have been some complicated yet elegant method for taking down AV before level caps increased, but it couldn't be found even with the "helpful" video the devs posted.

If you put your elegant system too far away from the path of least resistance, the playerbase would sooner dynamite their way through the mountain first.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

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The "Reverse-Phalanx" effect possessed by the pickle-hating Tarutaru who is fought in the final limit break seems like a pretty ingenious equalizer. I'd fly to Japan using only my furious, flapping arms and poop on somebody's desk if every big monster had such a trait, but stuff like that is great for some monsters.

Basically, anything that makes horizontal improvement more desirable than vertical improvement for a specific fight helps to even things out between above-average and near-perfect players. It's a lot easier to grab a decent -Damage Taken% set or make a half-way decent set for several viable weaponskills for changing situations than to be the very best at smashing all that stands before you to atoms.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

You're forgetting another problem with this idea: the time and effort required for the playerbase to figure this out through trial and error. There may have been some complicated yet elegant method for taking down AV before level caps increased, but it couldn't be found even with the "helpful" video the devs posted.

If you put your elegant system too far away from the path of least resistance, the playerbase would sooner dynamite their way through the mountain first.

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No there was no "complicated yet elegant" method, AV was just designed to be unkillable. He didn't even have a drop pool or title, think on that before you comment again on AV. He was designed with the sole purpose to be the invincible brick wall that "high end" players would spend all their time trying to beat. It's a game mechanic for giving Munchkins something to do. It's also considered highly unethical.

SE just needs to do what EVERY OTHER MMO does and provide hints NPC dialog and monster feedback. We largely ignore NPC text in this game. Have a guy in the Tenshodo mention how "such and such NM is vulnerable to blah blah". .dat mining will discover it and soon enough people will figure out the system. SE spends too much effort hiding their poor work from the player base.