Well the Empyrean lvl 99 trial asks for 500 or something and the Relic trial asks for 1000 of something.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
Watch it be 100's
Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99
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12-09-2011, 08:19 AMAtomic_Skull
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12-09-2011, 09:08 AMmacross
I beg to differ about 75 relic harder than 90 empy. I'd like to see you solo a 90 empy, vs soloing a 75 relic. I assure you the 75 relic will be done first. 75 bravura solo, 2-3 months easy with a bst/dnc. 90 ukon solo? go try and see how long that takes you and how much curor you spend brewing. Relic only takes that long because you can only do it 2 hours a day. IF you could farm as much as you wanted, it would be no contest.
Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.
You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol. -
12-09-2011, 09:32 AMnewmonkey
85 empys are a joke to make you know and i know it Macross and the fact reamins 85 ukon still destorys a 95 bravura and this shouldn't be happening.
Each and every update empys get easier and easier to make at 95 now none of the mobs are difficult ive made 10 ukons over the last few months don't even pretend that these are in anyway hard to make, why should empys be doing more dps than relics, most of the relic aftermaths are junk bar a few, the ws do not come close to the empyrean weapon skills in most cases.
Relics still need boosting to be able to keep up dps wise with empys at 99 and lets not forget we have yet to see the 99 trial items but we do know you need double of whatever it is for relics, you're just butthurt you spent a shed load of gil on your 95 when more than likely they are going to increase the heavy plate drop rate.
So i repeat relics seeminly have a harder final trial than your beloved empyrean weapon, so lets all just wait and see what these items are before we continue this which weapons is harder to make sillyness. Mythics are by far the hardest anyways.
Your point about salvage gear in invalid as pretty soon its going to be agumentable or upgraded to +2 whatever. -
12-09-2011, 09:54 AMUnleashhellAre you not reading what people are saying or what? We are asking that RELIC WEAPONSKILLS be on par with EMPYREAN WEAPONSKILLS... THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW EASY THEY ARE TO MAKE.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
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12-09-2011, 09:58 AMGreatguardianYou're missing the context. It's a legitimate tangent sparked by other players asserting that Relics should be stronger than Empyreans (not equivalent to) because they were more difficult to make. He is simply denouncing that assertion, as it is false in the context of level 99 weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
Relic WS need a boost. Sure. No one's saying they don't. It's simply being pointed out that they don't innately deserve to be the strongest weapons in the game bar none because of their "difficulty", which is fairly hollow in and of itself. They should be strong. They should be situationally viable alternatives to Empyreans at 99. Neither should really blow the other out of the water. Leave that to Mythics. -
12-09-2011, 10:05 AMKitkatYou're arguing semantics while missing the point. Take your argument elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
Still arguing semantics, especially when upgrades to nyzul and salvage armors are already in the works. There is no "crazy boost" being talked about. These are request to have the properties of the weapons re-coded to act like all the other weapons do in the game. Asking that a WS that has a 60% stat mod and 3.0 ftp and a lazily tacked on 25% boost to WS damage instead of reworking the weapons to function normally isn't a "crazy boost." Hidden proc would still be lower than ODD aftermath, but would at least have a chance to proc on any strike from that weapon. Asking that the additional effect/visible stats to work in offhand is not different than any of the emps, TOM, or rare/ex weapons working in offhand. You've clearly misread the whole topic if you think this is going to make them "strongest in the game" when it is only asking for them to be treated equally to every other weapon available.Quote:
Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.
I don't know where you are coming from, but all the posts I've read related to this topic has nothing to do with making them the strongest. It is asking from SE to re-code and make them equally able to perform as other Weapons/Weaponskills. The way they are now is so different from every other weapon/weaponskill that it actually hurts the weapon more than it makes it even remotely useful. Most of these proposed changes wouldn't make any of the weapons out perform emp, but it would make them comparable to them while still remaining balanced.Quote:
You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol.
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12-09-2011, 10:19 AMmacross
Why shouldn't difficulty be a factor in the power of a weapon?
People are under the false notion that relics are extremely hard to make. I'm just trying to point out that it is not. Relic are actually the easiest to make atm. They might take longer, but that is only due to you only being able to farm dynamis 2 hours a day. If you could farm dynamis 12 hours a day, you could finish a relic in 5 days no problem.
Relic ws do not need to be on par with empys. Empys are for pure dps, nothing else. Relics have additional properties empys do not have. What you are asking for is akin to asking blm to be able to melee and dd like a warrior, cause it was hard for you to lvl your blm back in the day. Each weapon has its strengths. Relics str just isn't its dps. Go make your 85 empys if you feel they are stronger. They are EASY no???
The salvage armor was an example. You don't complain it sucks now and you wasted your time, you went out and got the empy armor, which is way better way easier.
I wouldnt' be butt hurt at all if they made plates drop more. I made it cause I had the spare gil, and that ukon is > bravura dps wise, and that you need 95 to get to 99. If you get your wish and bravura becomes the best, then for sure I will make one as well and not whine about how empy 99 sucks. -
12-09-2011, 10:29 AMUnleashhellNobody is saying they should be the best. They should be on par with Empyreans. Only he was the one to bring up how easy they are to make. Nobody cares how easy they are to make. My original post has to do with Relic WS boost and NOTHING else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatguardian
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12-09-2011, 10:52 AMGreatguardianQuote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Looks like I mixed up the chicken and the egg, but the context stands. I know your posts are reasonable, OP. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean the rest of the thread is equally reasonable. -
12-09-2011, 11:30 AMnewmonkey
Macross you keep rattling on about bravura, so tell me why amano doesn't deserve to keep up with massa dps wise ? That 7 store tp aftermath is laughable.
Lots of relics have stupid aftermaths so again your point about dps is invalid, emys are a complete joke to make to 85 i've got 6 btw, and it is 85 were they get good aftermath and the weapon skill you are only acting like this because rather foolishly you forked out 100 mil on your 95 upgrade instead of waiting till this coming update lol. -
12-09-2011, 11:36 AMNeisan_Quetz
Amano overtakes Masamune when accuracy is an issue and Sam doesn't overtp alot.
Then hasszanshin update came.
Save TP buffs/being able to open with 300 TP doesn't help amano either.
And nor does the constant TP mod. -
12-09-2011, 11:48 AMKitkatI still find this statement ironic. Before 95, if a relic user complained about difficulty they were told to make an emp, now the emp users are complaining cause one trail caused them to return to old school mechanics. Now they "deserve" to be the only pure DD weapon. Hey, if you could spend all that gil making a bow, what is the difference in spending it to finish your 95 emp? And honestly, if you don't have any friends to help you make either of these weapons then that is your own fault. Your "Solo this, solo that" argument is about as strong as saying this isn't an MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
Not a substantial argumentative point. Semantics are only quantifiers in a weak argument. You want to use the scope of 1 trial that can be just as easily compared to the currency gathering of a relic and call it "Hard" and "deserving" but at the same time turn around and use it against the very thing you are arguing about. Do try to think your points through. The amount of gil you spend is not a vailid argument either as that is dependent on the economy which can change very easily based on supply/demand. Just as you people use the excuse that the very same thing doesn't make mythics hard either, this is not "hard" under that very same principle.
This...I don't even know how you are coming up with this. The initial build of the weapons were to be "the weapon" by making the weapon and the ws so unique that allowing them to act the same way as all other WS was "unbalanced." Now they go back and rewrite all the rules by giving another line of weapons the same modifiers, the ability to be true multi-hit, and scaling TP mods and this is the new form of "balance." If anything asking for these changes on mythics would fit your comparison better.Quote:
Relic ws do not need to be on par with empys. Empys are for pure dps, nothing else. Relics have additional properties empys do not have. What you are asking for is akin to asking blm to be able to melee and dd like a warrior, cause it was hard for you to lvl your blm back in the day. Each weapon has its strengths. Relics str just isn't its dps. Go make your 85 empys if you feel they are stronger. They are EASY no???
You obviously don't play blu, rdm, or drk being as some of these pieces are still the best in their respective slots by situational standards. I can't comment on mardukes or usu as I don't play any of the jobs that use the sets.Quote:
The salvage armor was an example. You don't complain it sucks now and you wasted your time, you went out and got the empy armor, which is way better way easier.
Honestly, what would there to be "butt hurt" over if they made plates drop more? I think you missed the point on this one. With your adamant enthusiasm in attempting to squash that relic needs any changes, I find this hard to believe. Why? You can't even look at why people complain about some of these aspects of the relics. Try looking at the pitfalls sometime and doing some math behind them. Hidden proc rates begin to become worse the more da/ta procs since it can only proc on first attack per round.Quote:
I wouldnt' be butt hurt at all if they made plates drop more. I made it cause I had the spare gil, and that ukon is > bravura dps wise, and that you need 95 to get to 99. If you get your wish and bravura becomes the best, then for sure I will make one as well and not whine about how empy 99 sucks.
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12-09-2011, 11:52 AMRagniYou are so wrong, Emps are easier to obtain. lvl 95 cost only 150-160m, just go solo dynamis and you can make 2m gils per day. Getting emp up to lvl 90 takes 2-3 days lvl 95 takes something like 30-40 days of dynamis if you only do dynamis for gils (you can also do cruor pts, salvage). Don't say please that relics are easier to do because its not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
If you are talking about dsp, Annihilator is good example or even Apoc these two have better dps than their emp counterparts. -
12-09-2011, 12:53 PMmacross
I spent 0 gil on my bow... I farmed it 100%. Took me 40 days of farming, currently in the turning in stages, so Yes I know how easy it is to make a relic. If I wasn't limited to 2 hours per day, it would have taken around 5 days or less, depending on how long I farmed. The only cockblock is time. 2 hours a day x 40, 80 hours to make a relic. How many hours to make an empy? That 40 days is with 3 people btw. 3 people to farm your empy start to finish, how long would it take you.
You say you can make an emp to 90 in 2-3 days. I call bs once again. There's no way unless your days are 24 hour non stop gaming days. The trials before you even get the lvl 80 weapon, take more than 2-3 days. Heck one nm could take 8 hours to pop. 50 50 75 whatevers, 2-3 days with 18 people helping you, playing 24/7 maybe? Imagine if you could only do 2 hours a days of abyssea, that 2-3 days suddenly changes into weeks. Just like a relic! 18 people solo farming dynamis for you, how fast would you get a relic hrm? I bet just as fast or faster.
40 days of farming dynamis to make money to upgrade empy 90-95. That 40 days could make you a whole new relic. All a relic requires is 2 hours a day solo, or the gils to buy the currency. You can't solo an empy to 95, unless you use brews. The entire cost of a 75 relic is required to fund one stage of an empy. Which is harder when you put it that way? -
12-09-2011, 01:03 PMCljader1This guy has to be joking, I barely sneezed and I got 2 emps. I can take my emp RIGHT NOW to lvl 95 if I want to but I'm saving all my gil and gil making power to get my apoc from 95 to 99. I completed a emp in under one week, its too easy too get. BTW didnt the original poster say that he only want to hear from people who hold both a relic and emp? You only have a emp so you have no concept on what it takes to get a relic. So I don't know why you decided to posted in this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
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12-09-2011, 01:11 PMCljader1I hope its not 1000 of 100 piece currency, I'm one of the richest people on the bismark server and not even I could achieve that task. That's like making 10 relics, just for the lvl 95-99 stage, but I wouldnt put it pass SE after all Tanaka is back and he want to grind players. I'll quit if thats his idea of grindingQuote:
Originally Posted by Atomic_Skull
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12-09-2011, 01:14 PMCljader1Where is your relic bow sir, I'm on bismark server so I can see If you really have oneQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
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12-09-2011, 01:41 PMKitkatSeriously, how is what you are doing any different than what you accuse us of doing? More importantly, how does any of this relate at all to what the topic is about? Are you bringing anything constructive to the topic or are you more preoccupied with trying to make your emp seem far more difficult to make than it actually is?Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
In case you somehow don't know what the word percieption means, in this context, it means you are arguing 2 points you think are different and actually signify something of great importance when they are equal to one another. Your use of "hard" correlates to other uses of the word "hard" when viewed from anothers perspective relative to their own experiences. Just because something takes time, does not make it hard just because you think it does. Having done both an emp and a relic, I can tell you the trials are equally time consuming, but the end result is not equal to the time spent to reach the goal. This is the whole point you over look when you over exert yourself in explaining the perceived difficulties.
Emp 90-95 is equal to Relic stage 1 to completed 75 version, Relic WS+nm trials are equal to emp NM trials, but the end results are significantly different in relation to the amount of effort put into completing them. The only real difference between the two being that the order in which they are perceived to be difficult is virtually reversed from one another and that one is more rewarding sooner and ultimately than the other. That is the only difference between the trials themselves. Mythic weapons trump both emp and relic in effort required to build the weapon since it has far more time consuming steps than both combined, so both sides on this point alone need to grow up and shut up.
Your argument, it has no basis in this topic since the issue has nothing to do with how "hard" either weapon is to make in comparison to the overall result of the weapon up to its current completion point at 95. The topic was made to point out failings of the relic weapons/ws in comparison to other weapons/ws that exist within the game and why they are viewed as pitfalls,or need to be addressed issues. So why don't you kindly walk your happy little trumpet tooting idiology out of the thread unless you have a conclusive reasoning as to why the issues are of an unbalancing nature, or in your own words "crazy boosts." -
12-09-2011, 02:00 PMCljader1
I would like to see three boost given to lvl 99 relics increase odd hidden effect to 50% and rework ws damage/animation, and increase the potency of the aftermath effects
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12-09-2011, 03:28 PMAtomic_SkullWell the triels for relic +2 turned out to be 1x100 ~ 3x100 depending on what zone it drops in and originally the trials were asking for 30 "." so I wouldn't be surprised if the last relic trial is a 10,000 unit currency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cljader1
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12-09-2011, 06:25 PMmacross
I just turned in stage 4 of the bow today, you can see it on monday. It's not something I would lie about lol. I've had the currency for a while, just decided to turn it in and start it cause LSmate is doing his too so can work on trials together at some point, the NM stages. Being someone who actually farmed an entire relic on his own in 40 days, I feel my opinion on how easy it is does indeed matter. Hardest part of making it was deciding exactly which relic to make. Have you guys actually tried to farm dynamis lately? Actually who here even farmed their currency? I'd assume most simply bought the currency then made it, spending millions back when we were all 75.
My posts are entirely relevant. Of course I haven't actually gotten my relic to 95 or even 75 yet, but I've helped others with their trials, and it's not hard at all, just kill a bunch of EP mobs then a few EP nms.
Why does everyone keep over exaggerating how fast you can complete an empy. It's only fast because there are no artificial time constraints put on it. If you got alot of help and your game day is 16 hours long then of course it only takes a few days. Take those people and all go solo dynamis for you for 2 hours and you will have enough to make a relic too within 2-3 days.
colliex, which 2 empys did you barely sneeze at and make from start to completion in a week? How many people did you have helping you? How many pretrials did you sleep over night and leech? Since you are mega rich, how fast can you get the 15-16k currency to make a brand new lvl 75 relic? How long do you estimate it would take you to take a relic from 75 to 95? How fast can you make your lvl 95 empy? It took me 1 month to make 90-95 empy. You might have all the money in the world, but you still can't buy 1500 plates just like that. Well maybe more supply now that ls bard finished her harp today. Go look around and see how much currency you can buy for relic. Is so much out there, all you need is the gil. -
12-09-2011, 08:21 PMRunespider
Given the latest interview I have to say I honestly doubt they will buff relics much more (last trial for them all will probably be VERY underwhelming), if anything the big emp WS (UF, VS etc) will be nerfed somewhat to put them more inline with the other 2 sets of "super" weapons. The buffing players stage of the game has come and gone, now it's all about balance again and in all honesty relics got far more buffs already than they would before abyssea and since that time is coming back I don't think we will get more.
I like the idea of my relic becoming more inline with my emps but as I said, new direction of leadership added to making them all easier to get...I don't think it's gonna get much more. -
12-09-2011, 09:40 PMCljader1Your on bismark, you already know I'm mega rich... Caladbolg took a week, I barely sneezed and I got that emp to 85, the reason why emps are so easy to get to lvl 90 is because it take absolutely no capital at all to get too lvl 90 its all leg work. Now when you add a stage that need capital, you weed ALOT of people out. the hardest part getting an emp too lvl 90 is the vnm pretrails outside of that all you got too do is pug farm or have a group of friends help you farm. I did cara gems in one dayQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
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12-09-2011, 10:58 PMKitkatQuote:
Originally Posted by macross
No they aren't because they are straw man arguments not related to the primary topic. All you are doing is feeding an off topic argument, also known as baiting (flame bait) while not offering any relevant feedback to the actual topic. Thus your points are invalid, your post are irrelevant, and this leaves your post as mere banter.
Topic: Relic weapon/WS
Your point: They are too easy and don't deserve any change.
Retort: Emp is just as easy and all other weapons/ws behave differently.
Your response: They are too easy and don't deserve any change coupled with Perceptive reasoning ignoring topic.
Findings: Straw man argument and Flame baiting
Conclusion: Your post are irrelevant and have no basis within the topic. -
12-09-2011, 11:59 PMGreatguardian
You're both arguing in circles. The perception of the topic is different.
Macross: Only idiots are asking for Relics to be hands down better than Empyreans. However, despite their comparable difficulty, many Relics are pretty craptastic - especially compared to their Empyrean counterparts. Bringing them up to speed does not necessitate blowing Empyreans out of the water, nor does it imply that all relics are currently worthless. Some are still best-in-class weapons.
Kit: I realize what you and some others are trying to discuss, however you're always going to have detractors even among your own supporters. Posts like this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher
Should not happen. They only serve to distract from the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens a lot. People are very stodgy about their Relics. Or worse, people without Relics are stodgy about the concept of a Relic. Relics aren't that hard, but they're still ultimate weapons. Bringing them up to par with Mythics and Empyreans (which both destroy most Relics) would only be sensible. -
12-10-2011, 03:12 AMTaint2Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
385 coins per run with 3 people is highly unlikely and everything going to you. I farm Dynamis most days with 2 very very good players (sometimes 3 others) and 385, while possible isn't happening every single day. I also would feel very selfish taking every single coin for 40 days straight.
So when did you really start your bow and how long did it really take? -
12-10-2011, 06:45 AMUnleashhell
I'm really hoping to get some kind of feedback from the Devs about this before they do the next update. I know they have a million other things to worry about but if they just say lets take 2-3 minutes and decide what to do with relics, and they say ok 10% more boost in hidden effect and call it good then I'll be a little pissed. not like I can do anything about it anyway lol.
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12-10-2011, 09:34 AMArbole
Aren't the stats for all the lvl 99 ultimate weapons already on BG?
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12-10-2011, 09:47 AMFoldypawsYou can see what would be listed in the equipment screen, but no one knows what Afterglow is, or if they're going to be adjusting or adding more hidden stats. (WS% boost, xDamage proc rate, something else entirely)Quote:
Originally Posted by Arbole
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12-10-2011, 10:37 AMUnleashhell
Looks like they aren't even letting us test them before the update being that its Wednesday. The upgrade items SHOULD be drops in dynamis. Otherwise it would not follow any sort of pattern for relic weapons, but then again Emp at 95 are VW and those items aren't in Abyssea so we will see.
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12-10-2011, 04:51 PMmacrossYou must not read BG, you would see a lot of my posts there. I 3 box, and my highest 1 day total is 720 coins. So yes they all go to me. 40 days 3 boxing, kinda slow but that's my pace. A real trio could pull in over 400 very easily. Heck my bst friend consistantly pulls in 200 a day solo. Even the most gimpest bst could pullin 150 day np. 3 months or so to solo a relic with a bst/dnc avging 150+ a day. If i were really hard core i would go 3x a day with 1 bst each time and pull in 450-600 coins a day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taint2
As for colliex and your gsword, you still didn't say how long your game day is, and how many people helped you farm it. Also that's one of the easiest empys to make all the way to 90.
I must say my ukon was pretty easy, felt like i sneezed and got it too, just be cause my whole ls helped to make it. If i had to 2-3 man the whole thing then hell no It would not be a sneeze and voila type deal. 18 people x how many hours, that's alot of man-hours. If 18 people went into dynamis seperately and farmed 150 coins each, a relic would be completed every 5 days. Heck if dynamis wasn't a 2 hour event, could make a relic in 1 day with 18 people farming the whole day.
OP topic: relic 99 ws need to be buffed:
my reply: why do they need buffs, they are easy to make?
Others replies: no way! relics are hard, they deserve to be best!
my response: no, they are in fact the easiest, with explanations why.
Kitkat: wut, I got no answer to your points, I will just say you're trying to troll.
Anyhow, if they actually make the relic 95-99 trial a challenge, then hell yes they deserve a buff. There's still a bunch more 95 relic and mythics than there are empys, even though the trials have been out the same time, and there are alot more empys than relics and mythics. -
12-10-2011, 06:55 PMEconomizerNo doubts, no accusations. How'd you do it?Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
All the Dynamis guides I've seen have been subpar in one way or another for the Dynamis changes, and someone with actual experience giving a run down would be very nice.
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Anyways, to get back on topic, I'd like to talk about one part of what I think is wrong about Relic weapon skills. They're all over the place!
Some are powerful and some are weak. Generally, the aftermaths should all fit the same amount of power. Look at them, I think it just gets more and more absurd, and even most of the good effects are still stuck at level 75 scaling.
Apocalypse/Catastrophe - 10% gear haste.
Mandau/Mercy Stroke - Improved Crit Rate
Ragnarok/Scourge - Improved Crit Rate.
Bravura/Metatron Torment - Lowers damage taken from enemies.
Spharai/Final Heaven - Subtle Blow
Kikoku/Blade: Metsu - Subtle Blow. Side Note: WS Animation shows four hits, WS does one.
Yoichinoyumi/Namas Arrow - Improves Ranged Accuracy.
Mjollnir/Randgrith - +20 Accuracy.
Annihilator - Coronach - Lowers Emnity. WS has set enmity value.
Amanomurakumo/Tachi: Kaiten - Store TP +7.
Guttler/Onslaught - Increases Attack.
Claustrum/Gate of Tartarus - Refresh 8MP/tic for 20 seconds per 100TP.
Excalibur/Knights of Round - 10HP/tic for 20 seconds per 100 TP.
Gungnir/Geirskogul - Shock Spikes.
Lots of things could be done with these things, from plain scaling them up to not suck to making them ignore certain caps. A low end version of this would be the Subtle Blow effect weapons ignoring the cap, and maybe even getting increased Subtle Blow. Considering there is a new WS with Plague as an effect, it might even work to make them feed no TP whatsoever. A more extreme version would be having the accuracy affecting aftermaths ignore the accuracy cap along with scaled increases - a player with the right setup would never miss. Perhaps these ideas would go to far, but the bottom line is that these need to at least be brought in line with higher levels and each other, let alone other superweapons. -
12-10-2011, 08:25 PMRunespiderRelic now, is easy (farm CoP ares if you want big coin counts and can take the daily boredom). Emp is laughably easy (not so much when they were released but they sure are now).Quote:
I must say my ukon was pretty easy, felt like i sneezed and got it too, just be cause my whole ls helped to make it. If i had to 2-3 man the whole thing then hell no It would not be a sneeze and voila type deal. 18 people x how many hours, that's alot of man-hours. If 18 people went into dynamis seperately and farmed 150 coins each, a relic would be completed every 5 days. Heck if dynamis wasn't a 2 hour event, could make a relic in 1 day with 18 people farming the whole day.
Only hard one is mythic and I'm posistive they will make them easy to get too soon.
Emps ARE easier than Relics to make still (unless you think FC&killing some easy nms for KI and Glavoid etc are hard?), and quicker but people want relic WS to be more inline with what emps can do, not better. My Emp WS numbers crap all over my relic, especially on stuff that matters.Quote:
OP topic: relic 99 ws need to be buffed:
my reply: why do they need buffs, they are easy to make?
Others replies: no way! relics are hard, they deserve to be best!
my response: no, they are in fact the easiest, with explanations why.
Kitkat: wut, I got no answer to your points, I will just say you're trying to troll.
Keep in mind some people arguing about difficulty probably made them when they took years to make (mine took 2 years), emps have always been quick to smash out..even with 5-6 people. -
12-10-2011, 10:39 PMWerewolf
I love how people say relics are easy, sure maybe now they are but not when cap was 75 and you could only enter 2 days a week plus the glass cost 1 mil each run... anyone that did relics that wasn't linkshell made pre Dynamis nerf had it much harder.
Being someone who actually did that and did all the Relic Magian Trials also pre nerf (yeah 2k weaponskill kills suck) I feel a bit ripped off, but that's Final Fantasy XI for you these days.
And back on topic they need a boost, I really don't care how much they nerfed Dynamis these days but the weaponskill should at least be on par with Empyrean ones. -
12-10-2011, 10:56 PMUnleashhellDo you need Hooked on Phonics or something? What part of the topic are you not understanding? This is NOT about how easy they are to make. Its about weaponskill vs. weaponskill, if you actually think relics are the easiest to make your in a fantasy world (no pun intended). Ever single reply you do says the exact same thing, relics are easy blah blah blah. And again, going off topic of weaponskill vs. weaponskill.Quote:
Originally Posted by macross
How are you going to sit there and say a level 85 Emp weapon that can EASILY do more weaponskill damage then a level 95 Relic, a 10 level difference, be acceptable just cause you think relics are easy to make? You gotta be joking.... -
12-11-2011, 01:01 AMSelzak
I don't think it's fair to say that 3-boxing something is a legitimate aspect of the game. If you can do it in a short(er) amount of time by 3-boxing, that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy.
I solo'd my Caladbolg, and I'm in the process of soloing an Apocalypse. The Apocalypse is a lot more difficult to make, and it's value is a lot higher too. For instance, if you buy Chloris pops for 1,000,000 gil each, you'll be done around 35,000,000 gil into it. Just straight buying an Empyrean would cost at the very, absolute most imaginable around 70,000,000 gil. That's (and we're assuming a very, very high price IMO) about half the cost of a Relic. -
12-11-2011, 01:19 AMChriscoffeyIt's the same reason everyone that did empyrean were saying relics should be left to old content and not touched again. They don't want anything coming close to their epeen numbers for how easy it was to make them. I think they are both easy to make but since this guy already upgraded Uko. to 95 I already know why he's defending this train of thought. It just makes you wonder why they say these things YET, before the dynamis changes, they were arguing to forget about people who have done relics or their time sink involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unleashhell
This would tickle me to see warriors emo crying, however, the GS would be a bonus to them.Quote:
Apocalypse/Catastrophe -10% Own haste w/ 5% going past Haste cap.
Mandau/Mercy Stroke - Improved Crit Rate
Ragnarok/Scourge - Chance of any GS WS to Critical while aftermath is up+ Improved Crit Rate.
Bravura/Metatron Torment - Lowers damage taken from enemies.
Spharai/Final Heaven - Subtle Blow
Kikoku/Blade: Metsu - Subtle Blow. Side Note: WS Animation shows four hits, WS does one.
Yoichinoyumi/Namas Arrow - Improves Ranged Accuracy.
Mjollnir/Randgrith - +20 Accuracy.
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12-11-2011, 02:30 AMKitkat
Already answered you Macross, you're the only one caught up on "Which is harder to make and more deserving?" Your perceiption is the only thing that blocks any of the reasons I've posted as to why the changes to relic need to be made, and absolutely none of them had anything to do with "they are so hard." They had to do with comparisions to all other weapons with additional effects, all other weapons that can deal double, or more, damage, and all other weaponskills that exist in the game.
Your explanations are so open to interpretation they show a perceived biased. You constantly attack people who get them done in 2-3 days with "you must have 16 hours a day to play" which according to your "it takes 80 hours total to make a relic" there is no relevance since it is total time to complete. The NM-VNM trials all take less than 6 hours a piece if you kill the placeholder, never saw any NM take longer than 2 hours max to respawn with a total time of 90minutes on average before NM was out again. By your reasoning, I can negate these respawn wait periods because they are "restrictive limits that prolong the actual time spent doing the work" this then makes the trials take less than 20-30 minutes total for duration of fights up past the VNM trial stage.
Now we are at the 50x 50x 75x trial, and for this I'll use one of my LS members who is making his 3rd emp and on average has less than 4 characters for pop sets, 2 of which are his. The weapons done are Gaxe and H2h, one of the more time consuming ones to make due to pop-sets, and all took less than a total of 75 hours, and yes...both are lvl 90. The 3rd is gun, which once it is 85 makes completing any other emp a total joke. Getting 200k for cruor is easier than you make it sound also...less than 2 hours of my time and I can get 200k cruor via alternating mob type kills, heck I can do this while skilling up a job. Now, before you pull the "16hour a day" card: he works a full time job during the week, and who knows what he does on weekends, but is afk more than he is online doing anything (most times he comes back drunk). So there goes your reasoning there.....moving on.
Now, being that VWNMs drop the plates, and anyone with a void stone can participate with a chance at treasure pool, this means there is a potential of 18-50 per fight which can be pooled into one person. Now, by your reasoning, this can be negated to being "easy" because they can be traded/bought and falls fully on you if the people you do the VWNM with expect you to pay for the ones they get. 95 trial then becomes akin to currency collection by becoming reliant on others or having the gil to buy them straight out.
Now that I've humored you, I'm done with you. There is nothing here that is any different than your argument because I used all your same tactics by negating wait times since they are down time/restrictions/inactivity, and even used the lowman completion of parts, and then applied the same reasoning you give currency collection to HMP collection. Thing is, none of this explains why relic shouldn't be fixed to react like all other weapons or weaponskills. How "hard" emp or relic are to make is an irrelevant factor when the problem isn't that at all, it is the uniqueness of the weapons/ws that is the problem. Now it is your turn to humor me...
I would like to see a 12~20% activation rate on hidden that is per attack, not per round so that double attack and triple attacks have a chance for ODD or OTD to proc on them as well.
I would like to see the weapons react to TP differences other than aftermath duration because other weapons with aftermath already get longer durations and still have scaling TP modifiers.
The tacked on 25% bonuse lvl 90 relics got barely makes up for the 3.0ftp across the board...cause now it is just the WS damage equation with a 1.25 multiplier at the end. They should have gone back and added TP modifiers at this point, not a 25% boost.
All relics are 1 hit wonders.....why is it some of them look like multiple hits and still maintain a 1hit nature? More so, these weapons are mostly 1hander weapons, only 1 is a 2hander. Dagger looks like a 4 hit WS, Axe looks like a 5 hit, club looks like a 2 hit, polearm looks like a 2 hit, katana looks like a 4 hit....but they are all really just 1hit. Can't be due to their 3.0fTP, because Emp WS have 2.25-3.75fTP modifiers and still maintain multiple hit status while also getting modifiers that increase their chance to crit, do more damage, or ignore defense.
Explain how these are "crazy boost" request in comparison to how every other weapon/WS in the game works. -
12-11-2011, 03:38 AMDrStrangelove
Changes to some (not all relics), just the ones I've seen or used
Six of the biggest problems with relic WS are:
1) fTP does not scale
2) some of the WS mods are weak (e.g., INT)
3) some of the AM are weak (e.g., shock spikes or choke)
4) some of the AM hit caps (e.g., haste, subtle blow)
5) some of the underlying weapons are themselves weak (e.g., gungnir)
6) some make no sense (hello, claustrum)
Apoc-If the haste is not allowed to exceed the normal haste cap, then this should be changed to a different strong DD effect (e.g., ODD, occas. attack 2-3 times, attack boost). Fix mods (INT/AGI) and change INT to at least STR or DEX.
Annihilator-Coronach should either scale in damage after 100tp (from 3.00), or have the modifier bumped to 4.00. It's not bad as is, but mobs have much higher HP now, so a modest change is warranted. Lower enmity for aftermath is fine as is. In addition, change mods from AGI/DEX to STR/AGI like Yoichi. Coronach should have no distance penalty.
Yoichi-Namas same as above. Higher ranged accuracy for aftermath is fine as is. Scale WS mods or bump base to a static 4.00. Namas should have no distance penalty.
Gungnir-remarkably underpowered and beaten by a WOE weapon. Sad. The WS needs to be drastically upped to offset this debacle. Changing mod from 60% AGI is one step. AM (shock spikes?). May be make AM: e.g., wyvern does double/triple breath damage or just give DRG added DD AM. Raise base fTP from 3.00 to 4.00 or scale.
Ragnarok-difficult issue since it's somewhat a stepchild for WAR, DRK and PLD. The addition of an Impetus type affect along with it's current effect probably won't help much. A chance to crit WS would probably be the best solution. Scale TP or increase base to 4.00.
Excalibur-needs dramatic changes to be viable
Bravura-Metatron should get the same TP scaling or a bump to 4.00. No other changes needed and AM is fine.
Amano-see Bravura. Scale or 4.00.
Guttler-AM is choke. Very very poor. If we really need to go that way, make it silence, blind, slow and paralyze with separate modest proc rates on VT mobs. Or change to better ODD AM, or add a strong pet DD as mentioned for Gungnir. Add 15% attack bonus to Onslaught, make it critical and let it scale. Much better.
Kikoku-Change Metsu to 4.00 or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR magical and physical evasion(+25%).
Spharai-Change Final Heaven to 4.00 and or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR increased DA rate (+10%).
Claustrum-(/sigh). Fix the underlying weapon. Fixing the WS is like putting whipped cream on a patty.
I don't think these make relic WS better than empy WS in Abyssea (which bothers me), but it makes relic WS viable outside on strong mobs. -
12-11-2011, 05:07 AMUnleashhellQuote:
Originally Posted by DrStrangelove
Now this is what I'm talking about. Great feedback, thanks.