How to fix pld as tank??

Here is how my Linkshell has been doing things lately...
PLD > voke, flash, 2k WS.
before the pld swings his sword a second time.
BLMS nuke for 8k
melees WS for 5k+
and then
WHM expends all mp on melee and BLMs
all the melee and blms die
PLD holds monster for while with only his cures.
Wipe.....

So why did we wipe...? cuz the pld is broke?

No and yes.
No because the DD and BLMs are acting like a bunch of valkrum dunes flunkies.
Yes because zerging from start to finish is just how people play, and SE needs to compensate PLD for that fact.

There is just... so much wrong... in that post...

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Originally Posted by JeremyCarbuncle

So why did we wipe...?

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Because based on the numbers you provide for the Black Mages, you're apparently using an alliance format and a Paladin tank for stuff in Abyssea. The malevolent God who rules over Final Fantasy XI is justly and rightly punishing you for doing such a vile thing.

Because if it's something in Voidwatch instead, none of those actions made a !! appear over the monster's head and people forgot to drink their Fanatic's Drinks in the first place.

Lol I agree but If using a PLD to tank for anything is wrong in the eyes of Square Enix,
then they need to scrap thear whole developement team.

just fire the whole lot of them.

Give PLD a provoke type ability that's similar to the Ballista version(forces the opponent to target you for a set duration). Could be 10-15 seconds with a 1min recast, locks hate on you regardless of enmity.

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Originally Posted by Tamoa

This.

Pld just isn't as effective a tank as it used to be due to DDs having become extremely powerful. Especially in abyssea obviously. A provoke ability for pld isn't going to fix that at all. It's also not even needed as tank for most things these days.

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I know this thread is a little necro, but this is why PLD is broke. PLD is not even needed. Why have the job in the game at all?

DDer with temp items, atmas and a decent WHM can tank just fine. The thing is DDer have their own version of tank in an indirect way, it's called kill it before it kills you and a PLD can take a long time to kill even EP mobs without good gear. THF on the other hand I just go out and burn mobs and rarely if ever get hit.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Give PLD a provoke type ability that's similar to the Ballista version(forces the opponent to target you for a set duration). Could be 10-15 seconds with a 1min recast, locks hate on you regardless of enmity.

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Why do people keep suggesting this? This won't make pld any more relevant.

Lower PLDs overall damage resistance and greatly increase it's DD output. Pure Turtle tanking sounds great on paper but it does not work in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Feliciaa

Lower PLDs overall damage resistance and greatly increase it's DD output. Pure Turtle tanking sounds great on paper but it does not work in MMOs.

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....... Did you really just say that?

PLD doesn't need anything else, what PLD needs are people that actually know how to play it, and utilize the job abilities correctly. I see PLD that blow their load using almost all their job abilities at the start of a fight, then have nothing for minutes past that and loose hate immediately. Learn to space out some of your job abilities and you should be able to hold hate very well. Merits also make a difference, as well as gear swaps.

PLD has enough offensive weapons that can be utilized (Excalibur, Almace, Burtang), and none of those are not hard to obtain these days. Burtgang is just time consuming because of all the requirements, it is not HARD to get. If you are going to be lazy with your gear and efforts, don't expect sympathy from people when you cant do your job as a PLD.

Aegis and Ochain are also not hard to obtain. Before people say Ochain is hard, its not. Its time consuming because of the Colorless Souls part. Getting colorful abyssites and tier 3 VNMs is not hard, its time consuming, there is a difference. Azdaja is also not hard at all and can be low manned very easily. I would suggest putting the time into getting one or both of these shields. If you are serious about PLD, your focus should be on getting both of these shields because each help in different situations. The new AH shields as well as VW shields are also other options.

So please people stop posting about PLD being broke, its not. Learn about Haste, Enmity, and gear swaps for various weaponskills and situations and people shouldn't have all these issues with PLD being broke.

With PLD's current damage resistance via gear,JAs, and spells it has very high survivability. That's why I think it would be best to lower it's overall damage resistance and give it more DD potential.

Excalibur, Almace, Burtang are all very nice swords to have. However, DD now output soo much damage compared to PLD that it's impossible for them to maintain hate. Most DD can pull hate from a PLD in 2 WSs or the DD have to greatly hold back which should not be the case.

Granted DD should not be able to go all out without pulling hate but PLD should do enough damage that the game moves away from: DD run in WS > DD run away > DD run in WS

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Excalibur, Almace, Burtang... Aegis and Ochain

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FGSFDS
/sigh

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

FGSFDS
/sigh

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Let me guess... those are hard to get?

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Let me guess... those are hard to get?

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Yes. Also, your post was largely garbage. Burtgang is not, in any way, shape or form a DD weapon. Excalibur can be good, but it's also far from best. And none of them are easy to get. Yes, it is time consuming. Extremely time consuming. The same as it always was. None of it was ever hard to get, so why didn't you just say "oh just get an aegis" at 75? In this case, time equals effort, because you have to be on the lookout for currency or alexandrite all the time while farming Dynamis or Salvage daily (preferably both) and then find more time to camp VNMs and get people to help you with Azdaja, and if you're stuck duoing like I am, then it is fucking hard. The VNM part was easy compared to it.

Your post basically said "you're a noob if you don't wanna invest one year of your life farming daily to obtain these items so you can play your job properly".

Also, nothing wrong with blowing your abilities at the start. PLD still has trouble capping CE quickly, unlike other jobs, and Sentinel enhances enmity gain. What other abilities do you wanna keep for later? The only useful ones to keep for certain situations are Rampart and possibly Shield Bash. Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, Sentinel, Divine Emblem and Sepulcher you can use at any time, so why not use them at start? None of them will help you with regaining enmity in case you lost it, and the sooner you use them the sooner they'll be available again.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Aegis and Ochain are also not hard to obtain.

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If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

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Originally Posted by Zerich

Have all of the DD's pull back on their WS' and DMG, have SATA return, and only nuke on MB's!

Fixed!

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Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

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Originally Posted by Camiie

If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

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Aegis and Ochain are only really requirements for some end-game content, I've seen Paladins without these do just fine in places like Dynamis and Abyssea who now how to play the job, and have otherwise good gear and shield skill. Also, in Abyssea you have atma to offset the lack of these two shields.

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Originally Posted by Vivivivi

Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

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As much as this would help PLD become more than an add-holder for current end-game events, it's just not as reasonable of a strategy to use when you're stunning and zerging the NM to paste.

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Originally Posted by Vivivivi

Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

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You have no clue how enmity works.

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Originally Posted by Vivivivi

Aegis and Ochain are only really requirements for some end-game content, I've seen Paladins without these do just fine in places like Dynamis and Abyssea who now how to play the job, and have otherwise good gear and shield skill. Also, in Abyssea you have atma to offset the lack of these two shields.

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You really have no clue what you are talking about, listing 2 events where pld isn't seriously needed for pretty much anything.

how to fix pld as tank?
step 1: fix damage enmity!
step 2: add mobs where you need a tank!(unzergable, high dmg/attack speed/accuracy)

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes. Also, your post was largely garbage. Burtgang is not, in any way, shape or form a DD weapon. Excalibur can be good, but it's also far from best. And none of them are easy to get. Yes, it is time consuming. Extremely time consuming. The same as it always was. None of it was ever hard to get, so why didn't you just say "oh just get an aegis" at 75? In this case, time equals effort, because you have to be on the lookout for currency or alexandrite all the time while farming Dynamis or Salvage daily (preferably both) and then find more time to camp VNMs and get people to help you with Azdaja, and if you're stuck duoing like I am, then it is fucking hard. The VNM part was easy compared to it.

Your post basically said "you're a noob if you don't wanna invest one year of your life farming daily to obtain these items so you can play your job properly".

Also, nothing wrong with blowing your abilities at the start. PLD still has trouble capping CE quickly, unlike other jobs, and Sentinel enhances enmity gain. What other abilities do you wanna keep for later? The only useful ones to keep for certain situations are Rampart and possibly Shield Bash. Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, Sentinel, Divine Emblem and Sepulcher you can use at any time, so why not use them at start? None of them will help you with regaining enmity in case you lost it, and the sooner you use them the sooner they'll be available again.

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Relics are not hard to get these days at all. You actually think farming dynamis daily for a relic is hard? BSTs have been doing it solo since the revamp and still pull 250-400 coins per day. You going to tell me that farming for 1-2 months in dynamis on EP mobs is hard? Doing trials and vnm's then doing Bria and Sobek is hard? Really????

Its sad to see people say these things are hard to get these days when they continue to use the excuse time = hard.

Your level 99.... If level 75 content is still too hard for you guys you might want to go play another job....or another game. Seriously level 75 content should not be hard for you guys. I'm not trying to be harsh but seriously none of this stuff is hard to get. You can't tell me none of you don't have a couple friends to do ANY of this content with? All of the relics are soloable, friends helping out just makes it go faster. Empyrean's are duoable with a WHM and a DD.

Once again time does not equal hard....

It's less hard and more the fact even with those weapons Pld is still mostly mediocre and only really useful for adds in VW. You're putting even more effort into Pld for it to be less useful than certain jobs that aren't considered pure tanks because pure tanks are not essential for winning many fights (excluding the aforementioned adds/oddball setups).

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Originally Posted by Camiie

If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

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You don't need to have legendary weapons, but with the ease of getting them why wouldn't someone who takes PLD seriously be going after these items? This OP is how to fix PLD, it doesn't need fixing. People said PLD offensively is poor and needs something to help with DoT, in comes your legendary weapons. Dont want to do one of those your have other options at the AH or magian trial weapons, hell even the WoE weapon people can go after.

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The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant.

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People on here seem to think it is. They think time = hard to get.
Time does NOT = hard to get.
Effort does NOT = hard to get

Whats even worse are the people that their main job is 99 PLD and say this stuff is "hard" to get. SE made these legendary weapons easy to get now by leaving the difficulty of old content for level 75 players such as dynamis and Salvage for examples. If SE still wanted these items to be rare, they would have upped the level on ALL mobs in dynamis and increased the level of all mobs in Salvage. They didn't do that. SE wants people to have these weapons. We are playing an MMO, where the general concept is to work together. People have seam to have forgotten that.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

It's less hard and more the fact even with those weapons Pld is still mostly mediocre and only really useful for adds in VW. You're putting even more effort into Pld for it to be less useful than certain jobs that aren't considered pure tanks because pure tanks are not essential for winning many fights (excluding the aforementioned adds/oddball setups).

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True, but... There are some of us out there that just love their PLD and would like to use it as much as possible. Is it efficient? Not really when everyone just wants things dead fast. But either way, cant fault people that like certain jobs and want to see it be more involved in all aspects of the game.

I'm not faulting anyone who goes to make their pld the best it can be, what I was guessing the issue many people had is how even with these weapons Pld can't exactly fulfill the role of being a 'tank', with various factors negating the need for a Pld, mainly zerg tactics temp items the current enmity system and/or weak monsters you don't need damage mitigation on the level of a Pld for. That's why Pld is relatively useless outside of holding adds and some odd setups most don't care to look into.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Once again time does not equal hard....

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Yes, it does, making everything you said invalid. Time investment is the only challenge the game has at this point. It's not hard as in difficult, but it is hard as in bothersome. Dynamis isn't hard. Getting a relic is. It requires continuous effort and dedication. You can't just say "Hey, let's get an Aegis!" and you have it. It's not a Widowmaker. You have to wait months and play daily for hours to get it. And that's just for one single item, which will do nothing if you don't get a weapon for it as well. This is not for casual players. A vast majority of casual players, even good and smart players, will not get this. That doesn't make them bad. It just means they're not willing to put the effort in. It's for hardcore players. Hence, hard. As easy as the event itself may be, that has nothing at all to do with the ease of obtaining relics.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Yes, it does, making everything you said invalid. Time investment is the only challenge the game has at this point. It's not hard as in difficult, but it is hard as in bothersome. Dynamis isn't hard. Getting a relic is. It requires continuous effort and dedication. You can't just say "Hey, let's get an Aegis!" and you have it. It's not a Widowmaker. You have to wait months and play daily for hours to get it. And that's just for one single item, which will do nothing if you don't get a weapon for it as well. This is not for casual players. A vast majority of casual players, even good and smart players, will not get this. That doesn't make them bad. It just means they're not willing to put the effort in. It's for hardcore players. Hence, hard. As easy as the event itself may be, that has nothing at all to do with the ease of obtaining relics.

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That logic makes no sense what so ever, how is time hard? 2 hours a day doing dynamis is hard? See this is the problem these days with the game, everyone wants everything now. If people have to wait for more then 1 day to get something, its considered hard, and they argue and argue post after post to try and convince people something is hard to get. Its amazing how lazy people are these days. People can log in and play for 1-3 hours and still get something done but no, they would rather sit in their mog house or stand around in Jeuno hoping to get a party for seals and +2 items instead of going out and actually doing something.

For you to say that investing time to get a reward is hard makes everything you say invalid. If you are one of those that can only play for an hour or 2 a day and say that your little time makes things hard for you to get, that doesn't mean the rest of the people are under the same time constraints as you and should be grouped into the same category. If people wanted a relic that badly or and empyrean they should have started them after the dynamis revamp and way back when the 1st or 2nd abyssea add-ons came out. For the amount of time that has passed since those things changed in FFXI, people that are still complaining how hard weapons are to get. If they spent less time complaining on forums and more time investing into actually being productive and working towards getting something done they would have had more then one legendary weapons done by this point.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

That logic makes no sense what so ever, how is time hard?

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The answer to that question depends on how much I'm getting paid for my time.

Stop making this about me, it's not. I have no problems with Dynamis. I made countless Empys with my LS and working on several relics now. But that is how most casual players see it these days. And I'm not talking about hardcore players who play casually, there's a difference. I'm talking about the people who still don't have all their +2 and possibly +1 gear. And despite what people from the casual hardcore scene will have you think, there's a ton of those people. Getting a relic is probably one of the hardest things to do in the game right now (disregarding that it's a still lot easier than it used to be). Whether you choose to not call it hard because it's not difficult, that's up to you. It's still nowhere near a valid suggestion for fixing a job, because it means that a large portion of the playerbase will not be able to properly play the job, period.

Look, people say all the time what suggestions to make PLD more useful. I am giving my own suggestions on how to make the job better. You get one 1 hand people saying make PLD more a DD type, its not meant to be a DD. On the other hand people want hate lock abilities which makes no sense to me. But for those that want more DD output, you have the choice of getting a Relic, Empyrean, Mythic, or WoE weapon to help with hate control along with overall DoT output. Each has its purposes and situations that they are most useful. FFXI is also not FFXI-Abyssea, there is alot more to the game then Abyssea. People are still to this day referring to the game as Abyssea only when Abyssea is a smaller part of the overall game. Take away your Cruor buffs and Atmas and think about what benefits a PLD more, an AH weapon or a legendary weapon?

I'm not here to say I'm right your wrong type of thing, I hate reading those posts. But I am here to say that these things are not hard to make, they are time consuming. Now if you have a decent sized LS and they are cooperative and help each other, you can do Almace in a weekend (camping NMs obviously can be done another time, but you can kill an NM then after for 2 hours). Now people that are in a smaller LS, it might take a few more days or a week if that. Relics do take alot more time and dedication to make, but that aren't hard to do. I have someone in my LS that did dynamis everyday with a WHM and farmed cruor when he was done from exp pts, NMs etc. He did an Aegis from start to finish in 3 weeks. Between using his cruor from Abyssea to NPC items and farming actual currency in dynamis he finished his Aegis. Now I'm not gonna say everyone should do this, or everyone has to do it this way but when I'm saying is there are ways to do relics in a short amount of time. Time and dedication of the individual player is where the reward pays off.

I know that sorta seems off topic but it goes back to my 1st paragraph, where people wanted PLD to have more offensive capabilities. SE made these weapons easy to get. If anything Mythics are way more time consuming over a relic anyday. I feel bad for people even trying to start those nowadays. They are easier to get but require events nobody does anymore (example Einherjar). Trying to keep this post short but that didnt seem to happen. Either way people should not rule out legendary weapons because they are time consuming. They help all jobs, including PLD. Maybe I have too much mindset on people wanting PLD to be their main job instead of a casual job. Either way there are alot of fixes that should be don't but SE will not adjust enmity caps and they have already said they have no plans to adjust that.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

Relic, Empyrean, Mythic, or WoE weapon... But I am here to say that these things are not hard to make, they are time consuming.

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Time that could be spent getting "legendary" gear for PLD would be better spent leveling a half-assed BLM (etc). For less than the time and effort that would be spent making PLD "useful," you'll have a job that is in-demand, useful in most (if not all) situations, and will generally get you to where you want to go that much sooner.

It's not just about the time, it's about the return on the investment of that time.

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Originally Posted by Ziyyigo-Tipyigo

Time that could be spent getting "legendary" gear for PLD would be better spent leveling a half-assed BLM (etc). For less than the time and effort that would be spent making PLD "useful," you'll have a job that is in-demand, useful in most (if not all) situations, and will generally get you to where you want to go that much sooner.

It's not just about the time, it's about the return on the investment of that time.

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Depends how much you enjoy PLD. If its your main job that you enjoy the most in FFXI, getting a legendary weapon would not be a waste of time. Its all based on personal preference, to some legendary weapons would be more important then leveling BLM or any other job just cause its "useful" or a bandwagon job. To you its a waste of time, to others it isnt.

That might mean something if it weren't easier to get legendary PLD gear while playing as a BLM than as a PLD.

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Originally Posted by Unleashhell

SE will not adjust enmity caps and they have already said they have no plans to adjust that.

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End of the thread is here, because this means SE already said...

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Originally Posted by SE

PLD is a job we no longer care to have used in content we create, as such, your enmity is fucked up, and shall remain as such. We are sorry to all PLDs out there who disagree with this, but we just don't care about your job anymore, or any idea of tanking, we would rather everything be a bunch of zergs and weakness procing. That is all.

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So there you have it people, PLD is screwed, its use has been lived out and shall not be brought back due to SE not wanting to change their amazing Enmity system/cap that was flawed since we got our level cap higher than 75...

Paladins should embrace their new role as a protector that can cure, cover, and protect the front line damage dealers while being tough enough to hold their own on the front line.

In VoidWatch, their role has been reduced to being the pet holder.

I suggest they try different sub job combinations like /sch to have more of a support role in the 2nd DD party.

You can't be serious

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Originally Posted by darkvision

SE already stated that PLD will never get its own provoke type ability

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What? No they haven't. They even went as far as testing one out. It's still in the game code (type /recast enrage) they just never went through with it, and this was long before they had players testing things so they didn't feel the need to announce they'd given up on it.

In the Paladin forums a provoke like ability was already asked for and the developers responded they wouldn't add one and were looking into other elements to maintain enmity.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.
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They don't seem interested in the original ability either; there's no real reason for pld to get it natively in the first place, it won't fix anything.

Not commenting on enrage because I constantly get an error involving that and Blood Rage.

"We are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow enmity gain" is not at all the same thing as saying PLD will never get its own provoke. Especially when a pld-provoke was tested out.

This isn't to say they will get a provoke, obviously "focusing more on the direction" means it's a lot more likely to end up that way but doesn't say they're ruling anything out if the focus in that direction doesn't work out.

Personally I think Enrage should be picked back up, but not as a provoke; have them make it an ability "in the direction" they're talking about going, and/or make it some kind of temporary enmity cap boost.

I'm not sure enrage was meant to be a enmity generating ability. Both versions of it were attacking abilities (one reduced charge time to zero, the other was gabranth's bravery attack and gave him zanshin).

And yes they would have to rework enmity for a new 'provoke' to even be useful, since the old one is already mostly useless.