New Monk Weapon skills

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ? If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

Ok now using impetus up & down feature I find with 95% melee acc / 95% ws acc on both sets :

impetus up : VS=> 1372
impetus down : VS=> 1164
shijin => 1260

So shinjin will beat victory/be equal for pure damage (but maybe not for in DPS due to aftermath) as long as your accuracy is good, no ?

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Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".

2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)

On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

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It might be due to me not using the spreadsheet correctly but anyway something sounds wierd. On the shijin page If I want to compute the average number of hits per WS I do the sum of the column 'Q' times 'F' over all the lines. If the case of DA=20% and 95% hitrate for instance I find 5.2 when it should average to (1.2+1.2+3)*0.95=5.13
If I do the same stuff for victory smite page (columns H times F) I find 4.18 which is correct since (1.2+1.2+2)*0.95=4.18.

So did you forget to count DA on second hit for shijin calculus ?

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Going to need to review this....

Yep, there's an error. When I rewrote it, I got rid of some numbers that I shouldn't have (the second DA/TA/QA values; they're the same as the first for mnk, but different for dnc; I'd deleted them since mnk didn't need, but the formulas still referenced them).

In the case of the sum of F*Q, the result should be 5.40 with 20% DA. F column is the number of swings, not the number of hits, so acc won't factor into the result.

Fixed version uploaded.

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Secondly for the data page that I downloaded I have a target of level 106, 560 def, 120 vit which I assume would be qilin ?

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Select the target on the Setup page (L1). That info gets used in the Data page. Qilin has completely made-up numbers, but is intended to represent a very difficult mob that you probably won't cap acc on, etc.

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If I push my accuracy enough, for instance by using extra madrigals, in order to cap accuracy and I compare the spreadsheet gives 1260 average shijin vs 1164 victory. So Shijin is technically superior than VS to me.

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Doing a little comparison.. Added 50 acc to each set (you can put arbitrary adjustments on the blue Set Bonus line on the Gear page) to cap accuracy. With both capped on accuracy, but cRatio still around 1.0, the best/closest I can get is 1140 Shijin, 1214 Smite. If you could copy the gear lists you're using for each set, that might help me understand what you're seeing.


From what I'm looking at, if you're at capped accuracy on both, Shijin has a slight lead at high cRatios and Smite has a slight lead at low cRatios (excluding Impetus).

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin.

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Note: the values I have for Qilin are fake. I haven't gotten decent estimates on NM stats on pretty much anything, so I just had to make up a 'difficult mob' to replace Bukhis (for which I at least had real estimates for, even if it was a bit rough) after the level cap increased to 95. The name on it is "Qilin?" since I didn't really have anything better to call it.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".

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It matches a mob with extraordinary def and level which is not qilin then. But it doesn't matter because contrary to pupular thoughs, crit ws will not be greatly superior to others in low pdif case unless it's both low pdif and low level corection. In this cas this is due to VS being not a very good weapon skill if it couldn't crit.

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2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)

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It means qilin has no defense lol, doesn't really matter.

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On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

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It means Qvoidwatch NMs doesn't have unusual defense just accuracy at worse.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

It matches a mob with extraordinary def and level which is not qilin then. But it doesn't matter because contrary to pupular thoughs, crit ws will not be greatly superior to others in low pdif case unless it's both low pdif and low level corection. In this cas this is due to VS being not a very good weapon skill if it couldn't crit.







It means qilin has no defense lol, doesn't really matter.



It means Qvoidwatch NMs doesn't have unusual defense just accuracy at worse.

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Well you guys need to go on Qilin/Kaggen/Pil and test it with Spharai.

The queston that needs an answer: clear winner between spharai+shijin versus verethragna + victory smite? I Need to decide which I'll upgrade first @99 lol.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Its all cool on paper but not really match reality. I have only 2 parses from Qilin. First is mine and it was mostly with impetus up and my avg Vsmite is 2420 (971, 1116, 1209, 1788, 2237, 2331, 2469, 2801, 2832, 3182, 3758, 4348) Note I had fighter roll and minuet V but that shouldnt pump my damage by +80% from what you got on "paper".

2nd parse is some JP MNK and fight was longer so there was impetus up and down. His avg Vsmite is 2106. He had chaos roll and minuet V (1214, 1231, 1256, 1407, 1520, 1569, 1647, 1666, 1774, 1865, 1958, 2162, 2241, 2324, 2534, 2536, 2570, 2672, 3227, 3264, 3608)

On all parses I did against Kaggen Pil and Qilin I was never below 1800 and some of them (Kaggen) can lower your avg damage by a lot with Bio+statsdown tp move. Idk what you doing wrong that theory doesn't match reality (maybe you doesn't count temp items that you get when doing VW?) but its far off.

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Just means VW NMs have high level correction but low stats. Low stats low level correction both WS will be comparable. High stats and level correction, comparable. VS should still win slightly with after maths, though.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Well you guys need to go on Qilin/Kaggen/Pil and test it with Spharai.

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Don't need to fight qilin or parse to know what damage you can do. If VS does 1.8k damage to qilin, so does shijin. Proof above.

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Originally Posted by Monchat

Just means VW NMs have high level correction but low stats. Low stats low level correction both WS will be comparable. High stats and level correction, comparable. VS should still win slightly with after maths, though.

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With the spreadsheet I find around 4% less damage with spharai and with my simulator I find 3% less. I just need confimation from motenten that I'm using spharai correctly in the spreadsheet by ajusting the ODD from 30 to 24 when using spharai ?

It's not exagerated to claim that spharai is more usuable as you don't have to assume ODD. We just need to know if relic are going to get an improved 3x proc and if the afterglow effect on empy will not suck. Also after reading the info on BG on the plague it seems pretty cool. For instance when farming dynamis mobs you are likely to never see tp moves (right now it's usually doing a TP right at the end). For longer fights it's a good help and paired with counter it's great for tanking. If acc is capped and coutner rate is capped (which it should be with spharai) you will also get a small DPS boost.

well 4% is neglectible imo if you think the gearsets posted by motenten are not completly optimized, anmd theat level 99 will definately bring more WS gear. For example, shura kabuto +1 has a common augment on HQ3 with WSdmg+3% DEX+5, and can get attack if lucky, which favors shijin fists more than asuran fists. Next im not sure if gorget is better than love torque or that New DEX+6 agi+6 necklace. For the hands there is also the ZNM kote, byakko's can be augmented with DEX+5. For the body, Osode is better han loki, and can be further augmented with DEX and double attack as common HQ3. There will be stats+8 rings @ 99 too.

Obviously im not going to try to augment osode or byakko before the level cap increase since there is a high chance lv 99 gear will blow this out of the water, but just saying that 4% difference with non optimized gearsets is not a lot.

I would like to point out that Spharai can only Relic proc on first hit of the attack rounds (At least that was what I remember) and ODD on Veret can proc on every hit with sub hand including multi-attacks. Assuming Denali Jacket+5 we will have around 1.42 hit per hand. I was wondering if you taking this into consideration when calculating boost from aftermath/relicTriple?

The spreadsheet mentions the ODD on one hand and my simulator too. It's equivalent to 15% odd on both hands for vere, and 12% for spharai.

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well 4% is neglectible imo if you think the gearsets posted by motenten are not completly optimized

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It's optimized for acc and dex I didn't bother checking against optimized STR/ACC. It's listing 150 str/140 dex so it seems quite good if acc is lacking. If I try to stack acc & STR on a VS build I think I would use

aiais bonnet (8) // AF3+2 body( 12) // AF2+2 hands (0) // shura haidate +1 (6) // AF3+2 feet (8)
acc gear on neck, ear2, ring 1, back (0 str)
anuguinius belt on waist (0)
tantra on range (4)
weapon (20)

so ~ +58 str for ~160 total, so about 150 if you are mithra for instance.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

I would like to point out that Spharai can only Relic proc on first hit of the attack rounds (At least that was what I remember) and ODD on Veret can proc on every hit with sub hand including multi-attacks. Assuming Denali Jacket+5 we will have around 1.42 hit per hand. I was wondering if you taking this into consideration when calculating boost from aftermath/relicTriple?

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Was this changed/proved recently? I was under the impression that Vereth ODD was mainhand only for a long time. If the source is on BG, I can probably searchfunction it if you remember what thread it was posted in.

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Originally Posted by Greatguardian

Was this changed/proved recently? I was under the impression that Vereth ODD was mainhand only for a long time. If the source is on BG, I can probably searchfunction it if you remember what thread it was posted in.

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Seconding this. Unless this is recent, Vereth proccing on both hands is absolutely false.

Though, Gg, for me it always procced on offhand (second hit) and never on the first, for some weird reason.

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Originally Posted by Cream_Soda

Seconding this. Unless this is recent, Vereth proccing on both hands is absolutely false.

Though, Gg, for me it always procced on offhand (second hit) and never on the first, for some weird reason.

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I honestly can't remember which one it was, ha. I haven't been on MNK in ages, COR is just too boss in Voidwatch. But yeah, I definitely don't remember seeing anything about ODD on both hands.

I did testing on it a while ago. With 50% ODD rate of 300 tp aftermath, I got 20 procs on the offhand, 0 on main hand, 0 on any da/ta/kick proc.

20 is a small sample size, etc., but when you're looking at a 50% rate, not to get a single proc on anything else, yea. That was conclusive enough for me.

triple proc is for sure main hand only on spharai, and almost sure it doesnt proc on da/ta. And i narrowed it down to 12% proc rate wit confident interval of +/-0.8%, but stoped testing further , waiting for level cap.

Btw ODD rate is 30% on one hand only or 15% on both hands, since I've tested on this forum on MNK & also PUP.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...l=1#post222760

All this with level 95 vere

Nope you misunderstood me. Veret only proc on one hand but can proc on multihit attack.

IE: with Denali Jacket you can lets say quadruple attack on your offhand and all 4 attacks from offhand can be ODD when with relic when main hand proc quadruple attack only first of those 4 hits can be triple damage.
Assuming around 1.42 hit per hand with Denali Jacket we have:

(107+107)*1.42(multiattack)*1.15(ODD)+~26(kick)=375
375*60/106=212dps

and for relic (assuming triple damage has 10% rate on main hand):
(117*1.2(triple damage)+117*0.42+117*1.42)+~26=381
381*60/113=~202dps

~5% higher DPS with Veret AM1 and in many fights like Voidwatch you can easily maintain or at least have AM3 for most of the time with dust wings and its ~12% advantage for Veret then.

Didn't misunderstand you at all

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I got 20 procs on the offhand, 0 on main hand, 0 on any da/ta/kick proc.

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Originally Posted by Atoreis

Nope you misunderstood me. Veret only proc on one hand but can proc on multihit attack.

IE: with Denali Jacket you can lets say quadruple attack on your offhand and all 4 attacks from offhand can be ODD when with relic when main hand proc quadruple attack only first of those 4 hits can be triple damage.
Assuming around 1.42 hit per hand with Denali Jacket we have:

(107+107)*1.42(multiattack)*1.15(ODD)+~26(kick)=375
375*60/106=212dps

and for relic (assuming triple damage has 10% rate on main hand):
(117*1.2(triple damage)+117*0.42+117*1.42)+~26=381
381*60/113=~202dps

~5% higher DPS with Veret AM1 and in many fights like Voidwatch you can easily maintain or at least have AM3 for most of the time with dust wings and its ~12% advantage for Veret then.

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Good for the rest of the world that doesn't touch voidwatch due to it being 100% fail in every aspect. The last fail aspect we saw in this thread is that the dex body is the best WS piece for a WS that is not released yet, and will be the second best only when the ws is finally released. I'm more intersted in killing serious crap like dynamis NMs that drop many goodies including stats neck that are going to perform well for the new multihit WSs, and the Nyzul revamp since it sounds very much 6-man-ish, as well as clearly infinitely better reward as you pointed out (body+5).

And btw for your pathetic voidwatch zergs you need to get a mythic and use a perma AM3 OA2X/3x so stop bothering us with it.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Good for the rest of the world that doesn't touch voidwatch due to it being 100% fail in every aspect. The last fail aspect we saw in this thread is that the dex body is the best WS piece for a WS that is not released yet, and will be the second best only when the ws is finally released. I'm more intersted in killing serious crap like dynamis NMs that drop many goodies including stats neck that are going to perform well for the new multihit WSs, and the Nyzul revamp since it sounds very much 6-man-ish, as well as clearly infinitely better reward as you pointed out (body+5).

And btw for your pathetic voidwatch zergs you need to get a mythic and use a perma AM3 OA2X/3x so stop bothering us with it.

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VW is for now pretty important end game event or maybe even the only one beside dynamis HQ bosses. When they will add details about Nyzul revamp we can start discuss about it because for now you cant even exclude temp items there.

NQ Nyzul has temps anyway, I doubt they're going to suddenly drop it altogether. Maybe make them harder to get.

Small correction, in my estimation that vere is 3-4% better than spharai, as far as ODD is concerned, I averaged it to 15% and applied it to all hits incluing DA/TA on main or second hand except kicks. No idea about the spread sheet.

Spreadsheet had ODD applying as (for example) 30% of all hits on one hand, but not kicks. Adjusted to only apply to primary hit of one hand.

This will not affect the account much probably 1% unless you have an exagerated multiattack rate. Anyone knows if cruor is replenishable at will on test server to take advantage of brews for ftp testing ?

Yeah, pretty minor effect, but will probably have to adjust all the spreadsheets for.

Pretty sure one of the Moogles will give you like 200 million cruor at a time if you ask for it. Don't know which one, though.

For anyone interseted, you can get infinite cruor by talking to the norg "Test GM moogle". Go in aby-misareux buy brews and SA+shinijin on the frogs. You can hold your brew on coffers to make it last longer. So far with +60% crit atma and 4% retrun per WS (447skill, brew caps DEX) the damage ranges from 4478 to 5080 with vere 95.

If the % on dex is 100 then ftp is >=1.05 since 1.6*3.15*1.05*(52+39+12+floor(0.85*floor(999*1.00)))=5037

Interesting. If fTP is 1.0625, max would be 5094-5095 (depending on if fTP is first or last in multiplication/rounding order), which is pretty close to what you saw. Minimum fTP (with 100% dex) would be 1.0588 in order to get 5080, though more realistically at least 1.059.

BG users are reporting a -% atk on alot of these new ws , something close to -40%atk on all hits.

Final results
447 skill, brew, SA+ shijin en Ep mobs in abyssea, no gorget, 4% TP return
the WSs range between [4478,5086] (24 ws)

So if DEX=100% => ftp is greater than 1.061

447 skill, brew, SA+ shijin en Ep mobs in abyssea, flame gorget, 4% TP return
the WSs range between [4907,5556] (20 ws)
confirms values above.

Gorget results require at least 1.159 fTP. Subtracting 100/1024 from that means base fTP has to be at least 1.0614, which is right on top of the 1.061 of your first test.

Closest higher fraction of 1.0614 in units of /1024 would be 63/1024, but I'm inclined to stay with 64/1024 as a more even unit, and the probability that you didn't get -all- the way to the max value in just a couple dozen weaponskills. Thus we can consider 1.0625 fTP as stable, along with the 20/40/60/80/100% dex mod.


Next issue is what Gokku mentioned. A number of the new weaponskills are showing up with attack penalties (but of course not GK, which gets an attack boost). The great sword weaponskill is -40%. I haven't seen values confirmed on any of the others.

If SS has a built-in attack penalty, that lowers its usefulness considerably. It could be tested by getting just enough attack to be at 2.0 cRatio on a particular mob (eg: 654 att vs Greater Colibri) and making sure that the range of damage values produced matches the expected distribution, or if it seems generally lower. If it's lower, then you'd want further testing to refine just how much it was penalized. If you save TP to weaponskill in the last 5-10% you should only land 1-2 hits, which would reduce the amount of variability to account for. Also, don't use a gorget for this test, due to the last issue.


And the final issue to be checked on is the possibility of fTP being carried over across all hits. This is the case for some of the new weaponskills such as Stardiver (polearm), where it's 0.75 fTP on all hits rather than 0.75 on the first hit and 1.0 on the remaining hits.

Since SS's fTP is fairly close to 1.0, its primary interest would be in the value of a gorget or belt. To test this you'd probably want to find mobs with about 6k HP (I know dolls in Altepa-A have about that much HP since that's what's needed to one-shot them using Blizzard V on blm) and do the brewed SA test again, as that should allow one additional hit to land. You'd then need to narrow down the range of possible values of the second hit based on the tests you already did for the first hit.

The "expected distribution is bullshit", just saying. Nobody knows the distributions between min and max. Sometimes it's around the average between max and min sometimes it's concentrated on one side. I've personally conducted interesting tests on chigoes, getting hit by 3 of them with various level of defense including counterstance and stacked defense.

For instance I've got data on chigoes hitting me while counterstance is up and having beserk (40 def only)

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counterstance_40 := ["86" = 6, "87" = 10, "88" = 20, "89" = 22, "90" = 41, "91" = 34, "92" = 32, "93" = 38, "94" = 26, "95" = 30, "96" = 35, "97" = 35, "98" = 42, "99" = 21, "100" = 31, "101" = 39, "102" = 29, "103" = 28, "104" = 24, "105" = 28, "106" = 38, "107" = 36, "108" = 48, "109" = 28, "110" = 34, "111" = 30, "112" = 24, "113" = 32, "114" = 32, "115" = 47, "116" = 39, "117" = 25, "118" = 40, "119" = 35, "120" = 38, "121" = 34, "122" = 31, "123" = 30, "124" = 28, "125" = 29, "126" = 32, "127" = 28, "128" = 37, "129" = 29, "130" = 38, "131" = 25, "132" = 27, "133" = 33, "134" = 33, "135" = 42, "136" = 40, "137" = 36, "138" = 34, "139" = 46, "140" = 41, "141" = 38, "142" = 33, "143" = 35, "144" = 18, "145" = 20, "146" = 10, "147" = 16, "148" = 10, "149" = 5, "150" = 2];BarChart(counterstance_40);

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which produces the following distribution
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...nterstance.jpg

Then I've got plenty of intermediate data. For instance if I got 390 defense

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def_390:=["15" = 963, "16" = 48, "17" = 52, "18" = 50, "19" = 23, "20" = 106, "21" = 41, "22" = 35, "23" = 57, "4" = 47, "25" = 38, "26" = 45, "27" = 47, "28" = 32, "29" = 43, "30" = 56, "31" = 48, "32" = 49, "33" = 47, "34" = 56, "35" = 45, "36" = 32, "37" = 25, "38" = 10];BarChart(def_390);

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which produces this distribution
http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...ann/def390.jpg
So really .. good luck figuring out what the real distribution is it's clearly no uniform even at low defense, then you have intermediatory distributions like above where a fraction of the hit seem to floor at max(pdif). I've ran plenty of test and in this situation the proportion of hit that are = max(pdif) is proportionnal to the invert of def and therefor cratio.

The higher my defense the higher the % of hit towards the max distribution. Once def is low enough it's getting close to something that looks evenly distributed but it only looks so because if you look at the CC graph above it's not uniform nor symetric. So idk how you reversed attack from a few WS samples, but to say anything precise you'll have to know what proportion is in which interval and there doesn't seem to be anything trivial to describe it.

The only thing that seem to come from the countertatnce data above is that the average value is (min+MAX)/2 and there are as much value above and below this value (2K sample size). It's safe to say it's only correct at capped pdif and always incorrect to be safe at low pdif.

Umm... That looks like a fairly ordinary distribution chart.

For the low defense chart:
Min damage is 86, max damage before accounting for 5% spread is 143. The low-end values (~86-89) have their frequency lowered because a lot of each damage value is moved upwards by the 5% spread, and isn't compensated for by having values below that spread into them. Midrange stuff (90-143) is mostly even, and the high-end (144-150) is taking the highest values' 5% spread.

86 * 1.05 = 90, which is the first value that gets to accumulate the full spread of the values below it, and is also the first value that's mostly even with the rest of the midrange. 143 * 1.05 = 150, which is the highest observed value, where 143 is the last of the mostly even midrange group.

The high defense chart has clear indication of a common phenomenon of the damage being capped. I'll often see values around 15-19 when I guard against mobs that I have relatively high defense on anyway. Somewhere in that range is the minimum damage that SE will allow. I haven't really tried to figure out how it's calculated, though.

The rest of that range is fairly even. 38 is 1.05 * 37, where you get the last bit of fall-off from the damage spread.

Edit: Oh, and the spike at 20 is most likely due to another part of the pDif equation that's a bit complicated to explain. Simple version: random pDif is generated between A and C; valid values are between B and C; values between A and B get reset to a 1.0 (though in this case it looks like 0.5; I never worked out the specifics for cRatios below 1.0). And of course values between B and C that fall below some arbitrary limit (looks like 75% of the 0.5 reset point, so 0.375) are capped at that value.

Anyway since you don't control much, the only and best way to test pdif on WS is a lot of WSs then average the value and divide by the overall ftpx0.95. It's a 5-hit ws anyway so 1 mob = 5 sample. If there is a 40% drop in attack it's fairly easy to check just by examining the average WS. Also for the ftp happening maybe on all hits it will be impossible to test it with a brew like I did earlier. I had to do 20ish WS to get close to cap so I'll need 400 for the first 2 hits to get close to capx2. Again this will be easier to check with full WSs, for instance spamming brews without sneak attack.

PUP99,432skill,D+39
No multiattack
219 DEX / 578 att / 173 str (irrelevant : you cap fstr)

I did sand sweepers ; only registered WS that didn't kill them. I stopped when they started to repop decent challenge.

max crit was : 476 (irrelevant.. I think, but maybe since I don't cap max(crit) I think)
shijin=[2128,2206,1963,2124,1676,1878,1943,2033,1912,2073,1950]

global ftp should be :
0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1380
mean(shijin)=1989
stddev(shijin)=146
CI : 1989 +/- 86 ( more or less irrelevent since that's only 11 ws so 55 hits total).

1989/1380=1.44 average pdif on the WS hits.

Here we go, /check command returns low eva at 486 att and low def&eva @ 493 (easy preys), make it 490 => they got 392 defense, my cratio is therefore 578/392=1.47

Using masa formulae on the notes from wiki's pdif page
1 handed middle value @ 1.47 cratio is (1.14*cratio - 0.72+1.0888*cratio + 0.31)/2=1.438 (far from cap therefore)

It matches the average pdif found on the WS I did so far so yeah, nothing happened, no def penalty.

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Originally Posted by MarkovChain

Also for the ftp happening maybe on all hits it will be impossible to test it with a brew like I did earlier. I had to do 20ish WS to get close to cap so I'll need 400 for the first 2 hits to get close to capx2. Again this will be easier to check with full WSs, for instance spamming brews without sneak attack.

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To test the fTP carrying over:

SA+WS first hit with gorget maxes at about 5563.

Max damage on a non-crit 1.0 hit should be around 2261
Max damage on a non-crit 1.16 hit (fTP+gorget) should be around 2622

Max damage if fTP carries: 8185
Max damage if fTP does not carry: 7824

That's a 360 point gap in damage, which should be enough to make it fairly easy to check for. If fTP carries, you should see something over 7824 nearly half the time since 2261 would only be about a 2.05 pDif. If you needed 20 weaponskills to get in the 5550 range for the first hit, you could probably expect to see a hit over 7824 within about 50 attempts.

Even better would be to add an elemental belt to the mix (should be easy enough to brew Indrik for a light belt), and take off Sanguine Scythe to drop crit damage to 30% (to prevent killing the mobs on the first hit). That would change values to: 4901 max first crit hit, 2842 for max if fTP carries, and 2261 if fTP does not carry. Total of two hits if fTP does not carry would be 7162, while if it does it would be 7743, giving you a 581 point gap. 7162 would be about 1.9 pDif on the second hit if the first one was near max, and thus would show up well over half the time.

Plus, given that about half the first hit crits should be at 3.0 pDif or higher, it would be very common for the first hit to be at least 4668. 2842 on the second hit after a 3.0 first hit would total 7510, which is still 348 points above the max total if fTP does not carry. You should see a value within that range on the second hit about 40% of the time. Overall, you should expect to see a value above that 7162 limit about 20% of the time if fTP carries across hits. It should be apparent very quickly.

If you don't see a value within that range within 20 weaponskills, we can pretty much dismiss the notion of the fTP carrying over.

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It matches the average pdif found on the WS I did so far so yeah, nothing happened, no def penalty.

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OK, good to know. Thanks for that testing.

I'm feeling a bit lost now... minus the "a bit" part.
Thanks a lot for all your efforts and dedication guys, really hope you'll manage to reach a conclusion about how good/bad this WS is, because atm I really have no clue from the back & forth things going on D:

I have been very rash... just did 5-7 WS on normal mobs, on Kaggen, on Qilin (on both MNK and PUP) and judged the WS as an inferior option to Vsmite, but better than everything else for those who don't have Vsmite. Altough my gear wasn't top-notch (tbh I find it harder to gear for DEX on MNK compare to STR, I had better DEX ws gear on PUP lol)

Sand sweeper, 571 att, 219 dex 173 str, 425 skill, gorget

shijin : [2061,2005,1965,2236,1622,2079,1964,1493,1550,1870,1947,1810,1977,2241,2339,1492]
Mean2 : 1915.68
stddev :263.8
CI : +/- 129

If I assume that the gorget bonus applies to all hits
ftp2=0.95*1.1625*(floor(425*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*1.1*(floor(425*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1511.33

The previous test was done with 578 att 432 skill and no gorget. I extended it a bit and got
[2128,2206,1963,2124,1676,1878,1943,2033,1912,2073,1950,1853,2166,2240,1104,2200,2124,1289,1425,1968,1882,2015,2237,2395]
so Mean1=1949.33 and ftp1=0.95*1.0625*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))+4*0.95*(floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*219))=1380.29

the ratio Mean1/Mean2 (assuming the sample size is ok) should be
ftp1*578/(ftp2*571)=0.9244
Here we find mean1/mean2=1.0175

At best this fraction is, with our CIs,
(mean1-123)/(mean2+129)=0.893 and at worst (mean1+123)/(mean2-129)=1.160

so it's still borderline possible.. just need a bit more to infirm it. But I'm confident it's not the case.

so whats better here 99 relic using new ws or a 99 vere with smite no clear anwsers are shown lol