Cure Formula Changes

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Another weird question... do the WHM AF3 pants grant an MP return with Blue Mage cures?

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Just had a friend test it, it did not return any MP. Healing Breeze (didn't have Wild Carrot, but was enough for testing purposes) for 194 with +1 pants should have returned at least 5 MP, however it still consumed 55 MP.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

Just had a friend test it, it did not return any MP.

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Disappointing, but even if it did and Blue Mage spells get affected by the cure changes it still won't change subjob selection, so no big loss. I suppose this is just another statistic to add to a wiki now though.

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A White Mage casting Fire does not do as much damage as a Black Mage doing so, a Paladin casting Utsusemi does not get as many shadows as a Ninja, a Red Mage using Curing Waltz does not heal as much as a Dancer, and a Scholar using a summon does not get as strong a pet as a Summoner.

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A White Mage casting Refresh gains as much MP as a RDM. A BLM casting Haste grants the same attack speed bonus as RDM. A WHM using convert is as potent as a RDM using convert. Healing specialist job gets high level enfeebles like Addle but enfeebling specialist doesn't get healing spell since level 48 :/

Let's at least pretend like we're keeping this on topic.

Hopefully I'll get some time set aside to test the new formulas on cure 1-4, but till then let's see some discussion on cure V sets.

I've been aiming for this sort of setup:

Arka IV / Verse Strap +1 / Empty / Mana Ampulla
AF3 Cap / Ajari Necklace / Roundel / Celestial Earring
AF3 Body / Augur's Gloves / Aquasoul Ring / Aquasoul Ring
AF3 Cape / Cascade Belt / AF3 Legs / Zenith Pumps (4%P w/ 6skill)

Totals:
50% cure potency
-7 ENM
+60 MND
+31 skill

Could switch:

Ajari with Fylgja+1 -6MND +3%P -2ENM
AF3 with Tempered cape +1%P +2ENM +4Skill
Zenith with Marduk +10MND -4%P -4ENM -6Skill

Would gain 4 MND, -4ENM and loose 2 skill... comes at the cost of doing salvage though...

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Let's at least pretend like we're keeping this on topic.

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Yes, if you are complaining or talking about something that isn't healing, please go away. We don't care here. There are other threads for that.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Healers roll adjustments in relation to weather testing method.

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Testing it atm;

Watersday, in Nyzul Isle (perma single light weather)
99WHM/COR
Surya+3 / AF3+2 head / Facio Bliaud (12%) / Serpentes Set / Twilight Cape / Korin Obi
424 Skill, 118 MND, 86 VIT, 50% potency, obi/cape

No roll 1229
Healers roll 5 1290
Healers roll 10 1314
Bust! 1179

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Originally Posted by Gildren

Healer's Roll
Increases the amount of MP recovered while healing -> Enhances potency of "Cure" effect received
Roll Effect Value
1 +3%
2 +4%
3 +12%
4 +5%
5 +6%
6 +7%
7 +1%
8 +8%
9 +9%
10 +10%
11 +16%
Bust -4%
Bonus +4%

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Edit: Beaten in math speed~

Healer's Roll should be giving you the bonus from being a White Mage, and then because you are subbing Corsair the roll values should be halved in effectiveness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aleste

No roll 1229
Healers roll 5 1290
Healers roll 10 1314
Bust! 1179

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No Roll falls in exactly with your gear setup against the calculator.

Healer's Roll 5 gives a 5% (6%+4% /2) multiplicative boost.

Healer's Roll 10 gives roughly (1 point off, however the value difference above that is small enough that hitting it with the floor might be causing this), a 7% (10%+4% /2) multiplicative boost.

Bust gives a -4% potency multiplicative "boost".

Based on all that I think it is safe to say that the new Healer's Roll changes (and by extension cure potency received) is multiplicative, not additive with day/weather bonuses as well. This was the expected result as well.

Again, thanks for testing.

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424 Skill, 118 MND, 86 VIT

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Predicted Cure V amount: 713

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50% potency

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713 * 1.5 = 1069

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obi/cape

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1069 * 1.15 weather bonus = 1229

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No roll 1229

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Match

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Healers roll 5 1290

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Roll 5 = +5%

1229 * 1.05 = 1290
Match

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Bust! 1179

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Bust = -4%

1229 * 0.96 = 1179
Match

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Healers roll 10 1314

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Roll 10 = +10%

1229 * 1.10 = 1351
Not a Match

Can't be +7% (1229 * 1.07 = 1315)
Can't be a different base (1314 / 1.1 = 1195, which can't be reached by any combo I can think of)

So something's not right with that result. Capped HP, maybe?

Popped Giants drink to help with the testing and repeated each result multiple times (mostly due to a mob beating on me while I had to wait on healer's roll wearing off to re-roll) to ensure accuracy.

Here's waiting on the cure formula adjustments...

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Here's waiting on the cure formula adjustments...

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Its great you tested this before those went in... I'm not looking forward to the work involved with getting the math for the new healing values, plus Steve's Calculator will finally be completely out of date (he doesn't play anymore).

I'm not so secretly hoping SE will just give us the new values, but I'm not holding my breath. Luckily for us though, this time we have the test server where you can just plug in values for how much skill you have.

It shouldn't be too bad to calculate, I've plenty of healing magic and MND gear to swap around to give a decent range of values...

Though, has SE ever released an in-game formula in the past?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gildrein

• Cure spells will be adjusted so that Healing Magic skill will play a greater role in determining their potency.

  At high skill levels, Cure spells will heal more HP than before, while low skill levels will see minimal benefit. The degree to which Healing Magic skill affects HP healed will vary by spell, with Cure I-IV seeing the most significant adjustments.
  

  • Cure I-IV: Amount of HP recovered may increase by as much as 1.4 times
  • Cure V-VI: Minimal adjustments.
    *Curaga I-V and Cura I-III will remain unchanged.

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If you wish to discuss or submit feedback on this topic, please use the [dev1094] tag.

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Guess the new cure formula is up on the test server.

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

On a quick test.

Cure I
naked: 56
/sch: 58
13%: 63
33%: 77

Cure II
naked: 131
/sch: 133
13%: 148
33%: 176

Cure III
naked: 286
/sch: 293
13%: 323
33%: 389

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daniel_Hatcher

Messing about with Cure IV on the test server I got these numbers:

Naked (RDM capped skill): 532
Naked (Light Arts): 547
13% Potency (87+26 MND / 80+2 VIT): 630
33% Potency (87+26 MND / 80+2 VIT): 742
33% Potency (Primeval Brew): 851

Didn't have the body (still after it), torque or earring to test at 50%.

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Okay for the numbers he gave this is what he should have got if he wasn't on the test server:

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Primeval Brew:
Cure I - 40
Cure II - 105
Cure III - 220
Cure IV - 450
Red Mage (368 Healing Magic, 113 MND, 82 VIT)
Cure I - 34
Cure II - 96
Cure III - 200
Cure IV - 403
Red Mage + Light Arts (404 Healing Magic, 113 MND, 82 VIT)
Cure I - 34
Cure II - 96
Cure III - 201
Cure IV - 405

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They basically fall into what SE said would happen, but I'm not really feeling mathy at this exact moment and I'm not sure what we can glean from this yet. Additionally these numbers could be subject to change on top of that so it is hard to say if we should be poking at this too hard.

Still, anyone else on the test server feel like doing some tests?

Some requests to give direction to anyone who does, however any testing at all would be nice. Don't forget to list Healing Magic, MND, VIT, and cure potency amounts if you do post numbers.

If I remember correctly you can set your skill level correct? This would be key to the following testing suggestions:

All tests should be performed without any cure potency gear since the effects of such gear is easy to calculate. All tests should be performed on White Mage so that stats are identical and numbers for Cure I-VI can be viewed.

White Mage, 424 Healing Magic, Primeval Brew.
White Mage, 424 Healing Magic. (A+)
White Mage, 334 Healing Magic. (D)
White Mage, 404 Healing Magic. (B+, Light Arts)
White Mage, 370 Healing Magic. (Any job /SCH using Light Arts; Cure I-III)
White Mage, 373 Healing Magic. (C)
White Mage, 378 Healing Magic. (C+)
White Mage, 150 Healing Magic. (/WHM)
White Mage, 500 Healing Magic. (See Below.)
White Mage, 400 Healing Magic.
White Mage, 300 Healing Magic.
White Mage, 200 Healing Magic.
White Mage, 100 Healing Magic.
White Mage, 000 Healing Magic.

For anyone that wants to test higher numbers here is a list of stuff that gives only Healing Magic that a normal White Mage might have or have easy access to on the test server:
+16 Healing Magic - Merits
+20 Healing Magic - Orison Bliaud +2
+18 Healing Magic - Cleric's Pantaloons +2
+15 Healing Magic - Beneficus
+7 (10) Healing Magic - Colossus's Torque
+15 Healing Magic - Healer's Mitts

With these you could test White Mage, 500 Healing Magic.

I don't expect anyone to test all of these but anything anyone decides to test would be great.

I'm feeling mathy, but I can't get on the test server, keep getting a weird error. If anyone can supply more data, it would be great. The following would be interesting to know:

• WHM1 to determine a low cap, if one exists
• Test with different, mid-range (300~400) healing skills with same MND/VIT
• High skill test (400~500) with same MND/VIT as the previous test, to see if there's a different formula based on tiers
• Max skill test (500+), to see if there's a cutoff at some point
• Different MND or VIT (not both), to determine the effect each of them has, all performed with the same skill (Atma should be a good way to get lots of one specific attribute)
• Brew test, to see if there's any cap for MND or VIT

All of those should be performed using Cure IV (since I suspect other cures follow the same formula only with different base values and Cure IV is the highest, so rounding errors are lower), preferably without any Cure Potency gear. Abyssea - Empyreal Paradox would be a great place to do it, MM Atma for constant Refresh with HP cruor buff, which can be canceled to get into low HP. (Do you have access to all Abyssea abyssites on the test server?) Could also use cruor buffs to get MND and VIT increases seperately. Just have to pay attention that the Atma you equip don't have an additional effect that may interfere with the testing. Would be great if anyone could provide those numbers, even just partially.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I don't expect anyone to test all of these but anything anyone decides to test would be great.

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https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...3ctMWEzemcxeWc
http://www.freeimagehosting.net/newuploads/tqnfp.jpg
Legend:
BLUE - Cure 1
RED - Cure 2
ORANGE - Cure 3
GREEN - Cure 4

Duplicated the second sheet and added graph, however I'm unable to test <300 healing magic skill without varying MND and VIT excessively.

I also did some calculations in this thread on FFXIAH to work out some of the scaling and inflection points. Probably do better with Aleste's data. Btw, what's the mnd and vit on those?

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Originally Posted by Motenten

I also did some calculations in this thread on FFXIAH to work out some of the scaling and inflection points. Probably do better with Aleste's data. Btw, what's the mnd and vit on those?

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MND 96, VIT 85, it says so at the bottom of the sheet.

Just eyeballin' but I would guess there's a change at ~310 and ~424 marks...

If possible, get one of 331 (preferred), 351, 371, 391 or 411 (I know this is possible since it's on the chart) skill, and test using Cure II: Try to get 1 point increments of mnd to see how rapidly mnd improves HP healed, and the same for vit (after resetting mnd). Even if you can't get exacts, try to get a few points' worth of additional HP cured.

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Originally Posted by Aleste

Duplicated the second sheet and added graph, however I'm unable to test <300 healing magic skill without varying MND and VIT excessively.

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I wasn't sure because I'm not actually on the test server but I'm guessing that this means you can't just change Healing Magic to whatever value you want on the test server? (Anyone care to answer this for me, I feel dumb not knowing for sure.)

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Anyways I've also been interested in Cure V/VI changes although they'd be more slight. This has been particularly important due to the numbers in that FFXIAH thread where Cure V/VI have their cure amounts cut during a brew.

I'm obviously not a math major so I won't claim to have the best testing methods, but I have a few more questions that popped up before I've looked at your data. First order of business is whether or not Healing Magic skill affects the numbers you get with a brew. This is something I should have wrote earlier and I feel stupid for not thinking of it as a possibility earlier.

I also have a few theories (not backed by any evidence yet, I haven't more then skimmed over more testing numbers yet). One of them is that perhaps the cure formula didn't change but instead having a high Healing Magic skill acts as a multiplier. One way to test this would be to take a set number of skill, take it again with capped cure potency, then test again at a high number of skill with and without cure potency and see if the numbers match up as expected.

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Okay I've been pouring over the numbers I have been given for inspiration. I don't really have any at this time so I'll post a (probably useless) chart instead.

http://i.imgur.com/mZ1V2.png

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I wasn't sure because I'm not actually on the test server but I'm guessing that this means you can't just change Healing Magic to whatever value you want on the test server?

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Unfortunately not, the =TEST= Moogle GM will:

"Read instructions"
"Change parameters"
- Edit main job level (also assigns all skills to cap)
- Reset ability timers
- Obtain max merit points
- Receive all spells/rolls/attachments
- Unlock all jobs and support jobs
"Teleport to key locations"
- Towns
- Outposts
- Staging Points
"Warp to Home Point"
"Recieve items"
- Weapons (Fake empies and some of the newer JSE weapons)
- Armor (+3 stat earrings and RR hairpin)
- Expendable items (pet broths, angon, nin toolbags)
- Medicine or Food (self explanatory)
- Instant magic scrolls (warp, retrace)
- Storage Slips (allows you to edit the gear on storage slips)
"Obtain 100,000,000 gil" Congratulations, you are now a gillionaire!

Oh, and you've access to your full inventory that was loaded onto the test server, every single trial item and every item on a storage slip.

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Originally Posted by Motenten

If possible, get one of 331 (preferred), 351, 371, 391 or 411

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I'll see what I can do~



What I've been doing was setting my main job as WHM (or SCH or RDM) and using the merit attributes to balance out my stats. Then I would lift all the gear off storage slips that varies healing magic skill for those jobs which don't change stats (EG: sch af legs, sch relic feet nq/1/2) and proceed to test as many values as I could. I'd then add on a few healing magic merits and retest.

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Originally Posted by Aleste

- Edit main job level (also assigns all skills to cap)

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I wonder how SE expects us to test this. Not easily apparently. I can think of a few ways to get the desired skill levels but they're time consuming and won't get a good effort/reward ratio for information unfortunately (well, unless that bug where setting a job to lower levels also lowers skills on other jobs is still around).

Since I have doubts that SE is going to allow us to edit skill levels for this I'll have to give up on it for now.

If you feel up to it can you test two things? I'm not sure they're worth testing but I might as well ask in case you think they are.

• Does Healing Magic Skill effect numbers under a brew?
  Naked, capped Healing Magic, 99 WHM, Primeval Brew for Cure I-VI.
  A higher amount of Healing Magic (as high as possible using whatever non-potency gear you have and merits), 99 WHM, Primeval Brew for Cure I-VI.
• Is the new effect of Healing Magic Skill just multiplied on top of cures?
  Cure IV on Scholar without Light Arts, with and without the cure potency staff.
  Cure IV on White Mage, with and without the cure potency staff.

Honestly I'm thinking Motenten probably has a better lead onto this then I do but I'm not going to give up on trying to figure this out in a creative manner yet.

I've spent the majority of the day with econ collecting values and bouncing back and forth ideas and theories.

HP healed varied by healing magic skill
http://i.imgur.com/P17hZ.jpg

Old/new cure ratios
http://i.imgur.com/prE9w.jpg

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Originally Posted by Economizer

I wonder how SE expects us to test this. Not easily apparently.

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Not at all, would be my guess. Or did you forget about how secretive they are with absolutely everything? When they say "test server" they just mean we should look for bugs, nothing else.

Reported test server values of cures under a Primeval Brew compared to older values:

• Cure
  40->65
• Cure II
  105->145
• Cure III
  210->340
• Cure IV
  450->640
• Cure V
  810->780
• Cure VI
  1140->1010

Current best guesses that I've made. General informational update on my work so far. I lack any solid information on mnd/vit scaling, so no guarantees there yet.

Power = Skill + Mnd/2 + Vit/4

Scale N: x == how much power (x) is required to raise amount healed by 1 (valid up to cap for N)

Cure
Min power: ?? (10 cured)
Scale 1 (to cap of ??): ??
Scale 2 (to cap of 45): 12.5 ?
Scale 3 (to cap of 65): 20
Max power (guess): ?? (637 if scale 1 is 2.5 to cap of 25)

Cure II
Min power: ?? (60 cured)
Scale 1 (to cap of 100?): ?? (5?)
Scale 2 (to cap of 130): 10
Scale 3 (to cap of 145): 20
Max power (guess): 640 + base

Cure III
Min power: ?? (130 cured)
Scale 1 (to cap of 150): 2.5
Scale 2 (to cap of 250): 4/3
Scale 3 (to cap of 340): 5
Max power (guess): 633 + min

Cure IV
Min power: 60? (270 cured)
Scale 1 (to cap of 325): 1
Scale 2 (to cap of 480): 7/6
Scale 3 (to cap of 640): 2.5
Max power (guess): 636 + min

No data on Cure V/VI

I know that some of the values don't quite add up, but I'm missing data (especially at the low end) to solidify the results.

While I may not be able to test stuff as well as others, I figure, may as well voice my opinion on the changes on the test server which'll most likely be live as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Economizer

Reported test server values of cures under a Primeval Brew compared to older values:

• Cure
  40->65
• Cure II
  105->145
• Cure III
  210->340
• Cure IV
  450->640
• Cure V
  810->780
• Cure VI
  1140->1010

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Or in other words, with 50% potency:

Cure I = ~97.5 HP
Cure II = ~217.5 HP
Cure III = ~510 HP
Cure IV = ~960 HP
Cure V = ~1170 HP
Cure VI = ~1515 HP

As Cure V+ got slightly reduced in potency, considering the major increase in the other 4 spells (I and IV by as much as 62-63%), I'm quite content to be honest. They needed the most attention by far. People weren't really capable of reaching the maximum amount on Cure V+ anyways and the difference will be pretty minimal on Cure V. I may think Cure VI may have been reduced a bit too much, but it's also become much less worthwhile to cast (as if it was amazing to begin with as it's still an abyssea only spell to me OR for an emergency cure).

Definitely gotta say -enmity setups just became that much more important with the stronger HP healed.

I have to imagine that "emergency use only" is the idea that the Development Bros have in mind for Cure VI, since the amount was reduced alongside Cure V rather than increased. Well, assuming they have ideas and minds and stuff.

These changes seem like a big win for every job involved. Red Mage and Scholar will have a substantial Cure in Cure IV and even Cure III will be workable. White Mage will more-or-less have three flavors of Cure V after these changes go live. Traditional Vanilla (V), a quirky Dark Chocolate with Toffee Bits (IV), and Sugar-Free Low-Fat Gooseberry Licorice that melted and refroze (VI).

Everybody's MP efficiency will go way up, and White Mage's MP efficiency on lower cures will be huge. It's hard to care that Cure VI is apparently intended to be mostly superfluous when, well, Cure VI is going to be mostly superfluous.

I've been mostly trying to hold off my analysis on the Cure V/VI numbers for a brew until we see the lower numbers for them at realistic stats, although I certainly have an earful if the brew numbers are the norm for Cure V/VI.

However an interesting trend is that they were the same at 424 and at a higher skill number when they were tested.

Since I've been relying on essentially one (brilliant) tester to get these numbers it has been a pain to get more information on this and the added difficulties that are coming up for testing, particularly for getting Cure V/VI numbers.

I've been digging through various forums here and there and it seems like this is the authoritative and almost nearly only source, although I did see a handful of numbers from an FFXIAH thread. I grabbed those numbers and referenced them against Aleste's numbers and while it is a pretty small sample and I was unsure of the testing method that person used it gave an interesting (although frustratingly hard to read) chart as a result. (Also regretfully I forgot to plot in Daniel_Hatcher's numbers he gave with this until I started typing this, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this numbers are starting to look more and more consistent with something.) I'm not sure if my sudden urge to post charts is a result of latent progress or lack of sleep so I'll have to leave it at that.

http://i.imgur.com/vawPF.png
As you can see the same tier cures, despite having slight different MND/VIT numbers practically hug each other to the point of being hard to tell apart. I'm not sure if this is a result of similar MND/VIT (92/83 from the FFXIAH poster and 96/85 from Aleste) or an actual trend.

I also dug through the JP forums and didn't find much in the way of testing but perhaps my lack of results was due to the reliance on an abusive machine translator.

I can't really seem to fit any sudden inspiration or humor into this post so I'll leave it at this for now.

My thoughts for today:

Upon sleeping on it and thinking some more, it seems to me that the cure4 formula has at least 3 different gradients in it; initially observed yesterday and eyeballed with some rulers.

Here is a very terrible and quick mspaint-job to get the point across.
http://i.imgur.com/KrC3k.jpg

Mathematically we can approximate where the lines meet by calculating the gradient of both lines and figuring out the intersect point between them. This should give a good idea where to further investigate for testing.

NOTE: Working to 4 significant figures. It's an approximation after all.

We can do this by approximating the 2 lines using the standard straight line formula y=mx+b.
Gradient(m) of the 141-157 line is:
(413-405)/(157-141) = 0.5

We can then substitute in a few values to obtain our b value:
(405)=(0.5)(141)+b
b=405-(141*0.5)
b=334.5

Thusly Line A (141-157) can be approximated by:
y=0.5x+334.5

Now for the second line:
Gradient(m) of 264-299 is:
(497-473)/(299-264) = 0.6857

Substitute in some values:
497=0.6857(299)+b
b=291.96

Line B can be approximated by:
y=0.6857x+291.96

Aaaaand now its graph time.
http://i.imgur.com/I5nCT.jpg

These 2 lines intersect around the ~240 mark.

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It would appear that the effect of healing magic on cure4 seems to scale differently (at least, lower bounds not tested) in the following areas:

ADDITIONAL EDIT:
<240
240-340
340-???
???-???

My aim for testing today is to physically test values around the 240 mark, above and below in the hopes of observing the precise point at which the gradients change.

If there is a gradient change at the 240 mark, we can then pick a few more scattered skill values between the 2 to confirm or deny extrapolating the line.
If there isn't a gradient change at the 240 mark, then we can assume there is at least 2 more points at which the graph changes.

Additional edit note: maybe it's just me, but the gradient of the highest tiers seems to be different than the 340-400 ish results. I'll do the gradient math in a sec to see if its just my eyes playing tricks on me.

Though, it would be handy if it was 0-140, 140-240, 240-340, 340-440, 440+

Tested more values on the spreadsheet. Managed to get the 225-260 values, and a few gaps dotted here and there.

I'm starting to become incredibly inventive (read: stupid) trying to figure out how to get the 100-220 values...


Edit:// I've given up for today, all this stat jiggling is giving me a headache. I /think/ i can get some of the 120-140 values, but it's being a complete pain in the arse...

Would still appreciate if you could do the mnd and vit tests. Would probably be easiest on Cure III. Anything above 231 skill (260 HP healed) takes 5 skill per HP. Do enough to find out exactly how much mnd/vit is needed to bump the amount cured up a point for at least 3 cure values.

I've got exact scaling values for all of tier 3, and most of tier 2 (Cure 1 only has data from the ffxiah post, and Cure 4 is a little peculiar), and amount cured for caps 3 and 2.

Also, can you recheck Cure III @345 skill. Is it 283, or actually 282?

I've coloured it in and stuck a note on it. I'll test it when I'm done with voidwatch tonight. doing it atm.


http://i.imgur.com/hmHju.jpg
You're correct, its 282. Adjusted value on the spreadsheet.

Since it's going to be pretty much impossible to get the remaining gaps in my graph, I'll try doing some scaling by MND and VIT tomorrow for you mot.

Apparently we're closing in on an answer. Or more accurately players on Fenrir (Seriously, Furen was on Fenrir too, what is is about Fenrir and discovering the cure numbers? The forums may never know.).

I tried to dig up more threads but this is all I found:

FFXIAH WHM Forums
FFXIAH General Forums

Kinda sad considering how important these numbers are.

Anyways if we're doing testing made to order can you test this too:

• Cure Potency and Healing Magic
  WHM 99 Capped Skill, with and without cure potency (24% should suffice however 50% would work better if possible).
  WHM 99 Capped Skill + Merits (although more would be acceptable), with and without cure potency.
  I'm thinking the results of this test will be very predictable but they'd completely destroy any theories for a multiplier, helping to alleviate any lingering doubts.
• Cure V/VI
  Just need a handful of numbers on this one, mostly to ensure that nothing too scary changed, especially with the threatening brew numbers. MND/VIT being the same would be a plus but not a requirement. I'm mostly interested in the natural cap number personally but extra data is always useful.
  Numbers to test at for skill: 500+, ~450, 424, 301, 232 (Cure V only).

Motenten's and Economizers testing has been knocked out today.

I think we officially debunked econ's theory today... kinda sad really, I had hoped it was the lesser of 2 evils.


In other news. Take that cure5~ +50 MND adding only 7 hp when naked...
http://i.imgur.com/FlMbD.jpg

Aleste's numbers for Cure V were at first comforting (they were a slight buff) around Healing Magic 424, MND 97, VIT 86. Then he added some MND. It looked normal. Then he added some more... and we noticed a trend... it wasn't improving as fast as it normally would.

The picture in question shows 97+50 and actually shows one more point of HP then the current formula but if you continue to increase the MND it gets worse. At a reasonable and perfectly achievable outside Abyssea amount of MND, the new formula will perform worse then the old one for the same value of Healing Magic. It is disturbing to say the least.

Considering that Cure V is already less MP efficient then Cure IV by a wide margin with the new formula I don't think a nerf of the effect of MND was neccisary.

I have more thoughts on this matter but I'm not sure I want to write them all out right now. I'm hoping the implications of this are clear enough to get some discussion going.

Well, I'd hoped you could stretch the mnd tests out to at least +20 (and vit needs a wider span as well), but working with what's available..

And actually, if you could redo it with a skill value that's divisible by 10 (eg: add 3 merits to take it to 430 total skill, or even full merits to take it to 440 (divisible by 20)), that would eliminate one element of uncertainty for now (whether any factors are added together before flooring).


Relative values:

Cure I and II scale at 20 skill per point of HP, so the range isn't nearly large enough to show results for mnd and vit. Ignoring them.

Cure III scales at 5 skill per HP.
Cure III scales at 9 mnd per HP. Not enough points to check for rounding.
Cure III doesn't have enough range to check for vit scale.

Cure IV scales at 5 skill per 2 HP.
Cure IV scales at 9 mnd per 2 HP. Would like a few more points of mnd checked to be certain of this.
Cure IV scales at 12 vit per 1 HP. (so either 24 or 25 vit per 2 HP)

Cure V doesn't have any skill scaling data.
Cure V scales at 10 mnd per 2 HP.
Cure V scales at 12 vit per 1 HP. (so either 24 or 25 vit per 2 HP)

Slight discrepancy between IV and V that may be related to overall scaling. Since we don't have skill-based scaling for V, can't say for sure.

Cure VI doesn't have any skill scaling data.
Cure VI scales at 10 mnd per 2 HP.
Cure VI scales at 12 vit per 1 HP. (so either 24 or 25 vit per 2 HP)

Cure VI appears to scale at the same rate as Cure V.


Overall power formula appears to be approximately:

Power = skill + mnd*5/9 + vit/5

Or, alternatively you can think of it as:
45 skill = 45 power
45 mnd = 25 power
45 vit = 9 power

So let's see if that fits with prior test results..

96 mnd + 85 vit = 53.33 + 17 = 70 power

Cure II, cap 2 = 130 cured @ 331 skill
70 + 331 = 401

Cure III, cap 2 = 260 cured @ ~231 skill
70 + 231 = 301

Cure IV, cap 2 = 520 cured @ 331 skill
70 + 331 = 401

Estimated cap 1 for Cure IV
405 HP @141 skill, scaling rate of 2 skill/HP
390 HP would be reached at 111 skill
70 + 111 = 181 power


Would guess that I'm at +1 over actual power. Not sure which element is off.


FFXIAH data:
92 mnd, 83 vit, 67 power from stats

Would then be 3 power lower than Aleste's data, and expect to reach same amount cured as Aleste's with 3 lower skill.

Code:

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Skill  Cure3  Cure4
334    280    520
A331    280    520
368    286    533
A365    286    533
404    294    548
A401    294    548
424    298    556
A421    n/a    n/a
464    306    572
A461    n/a    n/a
489    311    582
A486    311    582
504    314    588
A501    314    588

---

Aleste's data with 3 lower skill exactly matched all instances of the FFXIAH data, aside from the skill values that Aleste doesn't have data for.

Making some estimates on power. Ignoring the +1 anomoly.

Cure
Scaling for tier 3: 20
Cure at cap 2: 45
Power at cap 2: 200? (somewhere between 198 and 218)
Max cure: 65
Power for 2 > 3: (65-45) * 20 = 400
Power at cap 3: 600?

Cure II
Scaling for tier 3: 20
Cure at cap 2: 130
Power at cap 2: 400
Max cure: 145
Power for 2 > 3: (145-130) * 20 = 300
Power at cap 3: 700

Cure III
Scaling for tier 3: 5
Cure at cap 2: 260
Power at cap 2: 300
Max cure: 340
Power for 2 > 3: (340-260) * 5 = 400
Power at cap 3: 700

Cure IV
Scaling for tier 3: 2.5
Cure at cap 2: 520
Power at cap 2: 400
Max cure: 640
Power for 2 > 3: (640-520) * 2.5 = 300
Power at cap 3: 700



Cures 2, 3 and 4 seem to cap at 700 power. Cure 1 caps at 600 power. No data to make a guess at cures 5 and 6 yet.

This is different from the current formula, where all cures reach cap at the same power (1240).


Old cap reached at: 400 skill, 250 mnd, 250 vit.
~~ (250 mnd + 400/5 skill) * 3 + 250 vit
== (250+80) * 3 + 250
== 990 + 250
== 1240

New cap reached at approximately: 496 skill, 270 mnd, 270 vit.
~~ 496 skill + 270 mnd * 5 / 9 + 270 vit / 5
== 496 + 1350/9 + 270/5
== 496 + 150 + 54
== 700

or

598 skill, 135 mnd, 135 vit.
~~ 598 skill + 135 mnd * 5 / 9 + 135 vit / 5
== 598 + 675/9 + 135/5
== 598 + 75 + 27
== 700



Aleste's graphs of Cure IV indicated another inflection at about what would be 300 power. So its progression would be like:

Min power: ??
Cap 1 power: 300
Cap 2 power: 400
Cap 3 power: 700

With scales of:
Scale 1: 2.0
Scale 2: 10/7 (1.429) (originally estimated, corrected to exact value)
Scale 3: 2.5

That means the amount cured at cap 1 should be: 520 - ((400-300) / 1.42) = 450

That matches the test data from Aleste. So...

Amount cured at:
Min: 270
Cap 1: 450
Cap 2: 520
Cap 3: 640

However that implies that the power required to reach cap 1 is at least (450 - 270)*2 = 360, when we're only at 300 power.

The above Scale 1, 2 and 3 are all verifiable as 2.0, 10/7 and 2.5, respectively. Therefore there has to be a fourth tier at work.


Given that the difference between Min and the above Cap 1 (450-270 = 180) is much larger than the difference between the other caps, we have a fair bit of room to work with in making a preliminary estimate. In the current model, the scaling rate is 1.0 for the very first tier for most spells, so I'll find a value set that matches that.

Revised:

Min cured: 270 HP
Min power: 40
Tier 1 scale: 1.0
Cap 1 cured: 370 HP
Power to reach cap 1: 100
Total power at cap 1: 140
Tier 2 scale: 2.0
Cap 2 cured: 450 HP
Power to reach cap 2: 160
Total power at cap 2: 300
Tier 3 scale: 10/7
Cap 3 cured: 520 HP
Power to reach cap 3: 100
Total power at cap 3: 400
Tier 4 scale: 2.5
Cap 4 cured: 640 HP
Power to reach cap 3: 300
Total power at cap 3: 700

I chose a min power of 40 to match a rough scale of min power of 10/20/30/40 for cures 1/2/3/4, similar to the current model. Obviously all of this needs testing to find the actual values, but the progression seems pretty clean.

What we see is an initial fast gain (1.0 scale) that slows down (2.0 scale) as it approaches the cure capability of someone subbing a mage job (thus ~150 skill and maybe around 250 power). It then speeds up again after power passes the 300 mark (10/7 scale), followed by another slowdown (2.5 scale) for the highest levels.


Testing the lowest end will require the no-subjob trick and the no-skill trick.

For the no-subjob trick, described here.
For the no-skill trick, as I understand it, you need to get the moogle to set your job level (41 whm for cure 4), and then choose one of the teleport options without exiting the menu. This should prevent auto-capping your skills.

Together this should put your total power in the 30-ish range. From there you can do minor tweaks to merits and such until your cure amounts start going above baseline.



As an aside....

Currently I cure in.. 88+40 mnd, 80+3 vit (from what I remember offhand). Light Arts puts me at 404 skill, plus 35 skill in gear. Total power would be approximately 526.

Assuming that's roughly in the neighborhood of a normal average-to-good build, that would put typical cures at about:
Cure 1: 60, 90 with 50% potency
Cure 2: 135, 200 with 50% potency
Cure 3: 305, 460 with 50% potency
Cure 4: 570, 855 with 50% potency





Checking the same with Cure III, but assuming 4 tiers to start with:


Min power: 20?
Cap 1 power: 170?
Cap 2 power: 200?
Cap 3 power: 300
Cap 4 power: 700

With scales of:
Scale 1: 2.5?
Scale 2: 1.0?
Scale 3: 2.5
Scale 4: 5

Amount cured at:
Min: 130
Cap 1: 190?
Cap 2: 220?
Cap 3: 260
Cap 4: 340


Much more difficult to make good guesses here due to lack of low-end data.

Don't know how helpful it is, but you can also manipulate skill levels by changing to 1 job to get a certain skill, and then going to a Nomad Moogle (Selbina, Mhaura, Kazham, Rabao etc) and changing jobs with them. The limitation is if you lower a job level, it takes every job down with it, so this is good for getting your skill reduced to subjob levels without lowering the level of WHM.

So for the sake of example, if you wanted to test like 100 healing skill, change to a job with no healing skill, and sub PLD (C skill), then set your main job level to 70, which will cap your skills. C skill with a level 35 job is 100 skill exactly. Leave the mog house as that job, and get to a nomad moogle, change jobs to whm, and you will still have 100 healing skill (although your whm will still be level 70).

It may not be that much more helpful than what you're already doing, but it may provide additional data for specific skill points after large increases in MND or VIT (because you're using a job that is twice as high a level for the same skill).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Well, I'd hoped you could stretch the mnd tests out to at least +20 (and vit needs a wider span as well), but working with what's available..

And actually, if you could redo it with a skill value that's divisible by 10 (eg: add 3 merits to take it to 430 total skill, or even full merits to take it to 440 (divisible by 20)), that would eliminate one element of uncertainty for now (whether any factors are added together before flooring).

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I'll change the healing magic to 430 and retest a larger range for you tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Motenten

Testing the lowest end will require the no-subjob trick and the no-skill trick.

For the no-subjob trick, described here.
For the no-skill trick, as I understand it, you need to get the moogle to set your job level (41 whm for cure 4), and then choose one of the teleport options without exiting the menu. This should prevent auto-capping your skills.

Together this should put your total power in the 30-ish range. From there you can do minor tweaks to merits and such until your cure amounts start going above baseline.

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Unfortunately this doesn't seem to work for me, upon changing primary job level, the dialogue with the GM moogle closes. Skills are auto capped whenever you use the change main job level function.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyvian

Stat adjusting stuff

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Actually, that's pretty much what I've been doing to get the lower bounds values, the trouble is that it becomes a very complicated juggling game of stats. Adjusting merits, trying to find magian trial staves with appropriate stats, and hunting through claim slips for gear.

The main trouble I've been having is that I'm attempting to vary one stat, whilst maintaining the other 2 so we have less variables to worry about. Although, that said, if we became 100% sure of the formula, in theory we could just work with cure-power and graph any combination of job/level/stats/skill.

I'm on nightshift tonight, so I'm afraid I won't have time to do it today... however tomorrow I'll make a much larger sample size of MND and VIT scaling, which'll hopefully help confirm Motentens formula. I'll then change my main spreadsheet to work with cure-power rather than with skill, and then work on getting the lower bounds.

I'm actually surprised that the change to the formula isn't being more discussed... it has a huge knock-on effect across the other jobs.