How about an Enfeebling Magic thread?

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Originally Posted by Economizer

This wouldn't be a fair trade for White Mage. If you think it is, you severely overestimate Divine nukes. Plus, you can sub Red Mage, still have a portion of the MP regeneration and speedcast powers that /SCH provides, while getting MABII if you need it. You can't sub White Mage for Cure V.

Of course, this thread isn't supposed to be about trolling for Cure V, it is supposed to be about enfeebles. Like talking about how Red Mage should get toy enfeebles in addition to real adjustments since jobs like White Mage have toy nukes (not real nukes).

In my opinion, something that nerfs TP build and maybe harms TP move accuracy would be a nice one, in addition to a self-hurting paralyze that could be called something like Confuse. This could be implemented in addition to toy enfeebles like Toad.

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I was messing about. While I do want Cure V, I didn't really think it was a far trade.

Another thing that would be nice to see more of would be spikes spells that inflict enfeebles, although Ice Spikes are hard to beat. I always felt that enspells and spikes spells were the most representative spells from Red Mage because they combine Enhancing, Enfeebling, and Elemental damage together. If anyone should be mixing spells together in a powerful way, it should be Red Mage.

Perhaps Earth Spikes that inflict slow, Wind Spikes that inflict Silence, and a new form or upgrading Blaze Spikes to inflict Addle?

Logic that Aquaveil, Blink, Stoneskin, Dread, and Reprisal are their respective elemental "spikes" aside, the problem with those is similar to that we faced with Shield Mastery: Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless. Granted, I like defensive enfeebles if done right, but offensive maneuvers tend to get the most use. This isn't to say the concepts can't be melded in some way, though.

For example, when we had another enfeebling thread in the past, my idea for a Pain enfeeble involved the amount of damage a mob does in a given attack directly subtracts from its ATK for its next attack round. This would basically diminish the amount of damage a hit does every other attack round, and with luck, could factor into the damage of a TP move if used in a low phase. This doesn't quite address how some mobs are simply given stupid high weapon damage ratings, but that's also another type of enfeeble that could be looked into.

Anyway, with Helix spells being improved for SCH, I'd want to so DoT enfeebles are largely out of our domain at this point. This isn't to say Poison III or something better than Bio III could land its way in our arsenal, but subbing SCH aside, we'll probably never personally see anything as good in our arsenal. And given the exploitation of various DoT tactics in the past, I'm not entirely surprised. Otherwise, to generalize, if there's a stat in the game, a buff or debuff can be made to affect it. There are lots of stats, just going beyond what we see on our screens. Much as I dread how I'd arrange my macros with dozens of new spells, they're possibilities.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Without being the mob's focus, they're pretty much useless.

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At this point, most of Red Mage's problems (and more relevant to this thread, defensive enfeebles, and other enhancing based moves) would be solved when they fix the merits.

It would be very easy for them. First remove Phalanx II as a spell. Then replace it with a merit that gives Red Mage a job trait that allows casting most buffs on other party members when under the effects of Composure. This would include Barspells, Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, the Gain-STAT family of spells (but not Temper), and the spikes spells. It could also potentially include Reraise. Additional merits would increase the duration of spells, up to 50% (If I'm doing the math right, its multiplicative with the RDM AF3 gear, which means duration would be increased three fold with the full set, or at least that's the goal).

I know its slightly veering off topic, but that would also help Red Mage when it comes time to give out more defensive enfeebles.

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling. Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

I can't say I find the prospect of a Haste, Refresh, Phalanx, Regen, Reraise, Spikes, Gain, Barelement, Barstatus, Aquaveil, Blink, and Stoneskin cycle appealing without vastly significant duration boosts. I'm talking like a half hour for everything that isn't consumed in some way like Stoneskin or Blink. And this doesn't even account for new stuff that may come about if pimping the defensive angle of enfeebling.

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Assuming 3x duration like Composure gives (which is the target) you'd only be casting Gain spells every 15 minutes, like other five minute buffs. Three minute buffs like Phalanx would last about 9 minutes.

Casting Stoneskin, Blink, and Aquaviel on others is a pretty big waste of time in my opinion.

Since Phalanx is already something you can merit to cast on others, or sub Scholar to AOE, it isn't really a new buff to cycle. You'd only really be gaining Spikes and Gain spells. While Gain spells would be another cycle, you'd only really have to cast the spikes spell on the tank, which wouldn't be too bad at a nine minute duration.

I know I forgot to mention enspells, but I think that along with Temper, they should remain self-cast only regardless.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Regardless, you'll get no argument from me about converting merit spells to scroll learned.

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I was actually talking about eliminating Phalanx II, but that too.

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Originally Posted by Seriha

Otherwise, while defensive enfeebles can justify some higher potencies since they'd inherently carry the risk of taking damage or some other condition, offensive actions will ultimately see more immediate results that people will hone in on in a game where a strong offense is often the best defense. It's not so much that our enfeebles are useless on fodder, but more that we can't inflict them all in time to be meaningful. To that end, I wouldn't mind more combined spells that don't sacrifice potency for the speed of infliction, perhaps leading to a Bad Breath equivalent for RDMs that doesn't suck. It's just a matter of deciding how to pair/group effects, like how Radiant Breath inflicts Slow and Silence on top of its damage. Actually, it'd be nice if whatever new enfeebles carried a slight damage component, or sin of sins, TP generation for the RDM.

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TP generation like Occult Acumen for Red Mage, even if it was only for enfeebles would be an interesting thing to have.

On the defensive enfeebles in general, I don't think they should replace enfeebling magic, but they could be a tool to augment it. Spikes currently excel at combating large groups of weaker foes, which seems to be Red Mage's strongest trait right now between spikes and Phalanx.

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

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Originally Posted by Hashmalum

Unless they could be cast on others, defensive (spike-type) enfeebles would just be another 'toy' spell that wouldn't really help us. Even then they'd face the problem of not stacking with Reprisal, leading to problems with using them with a PLD tank. I'm not really in favor of the idea, it's not terrible but I think that more straightforward enfeebles are better.

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RDM should get no more party enhancing spells until they either get a 5 minute ability to copy their buffs to the party or AoE buffs.

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

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Diaga is apparently super broken to have.

Blm got the AoE enfeebles not mob related.

BLM basically got the AoE crowd control enfeebles (Sleepga, Breakga). The lack of the -ga enfeebles for RDM has always annoyed me too, but if I had to choose between -ga enfeebles and higher tier single target enfeebles I'd go for the latter. After all, there's always /SCH.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

WHM gets AoE Heals, it's a healing specialist. BLM gets AoE nukes, it's an elemental nuke specialist.

RDM is a enhancer and enfeebling specialist so why don't we get the AoE Enhancing/Enfeebling spells ><

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Not so fussed about AoE enfeebles, outside of Sleep or Break it's mostly pointless to have. Enhancing however I do want.

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party? Maybe if RDM was a stronger melee, the self buffs would make more sense. Even if barspells were able to target others but be single target, it'd be useful but they're worthless except for solo situations.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party?

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RDM was never a party buffer. Saying it is goes beyond the "square peg, round hole" metaphor. This is more like trying to fit the triangle peg into the star shaped hole. Seriously now, how many times was that question answered?

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

I just can't see why RDM was given so many self-only buffs. How does that help the party? Maybe if RDM was a stronger melee, the self buffs would make more sense. Even if barspells were able to target others but be single target, it'd be useful but they're worthless except for solo situations.

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Originally they wanted RDM to be specifically for buffing itself, that way what it lacked physically and magically it could buff itself up.... Then Avesta arrived and the buffing for RDM died straight up so other people found another job for it WHM-1

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We've had so many ideas for new enfeebles, but not a single lick of feedback from the developers since the manifestio as to what kinds of 'new enfeebles' we would be getting.

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I agree, though they may have addressed it and have not made it public. Wishful thinking on my part.

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If it would be at all possible. I'd like to get some indication as to what direction their thinking already as far as new enfeebles go. They said they wanted to add them, so maybe they have their own ideas. It would nice to get feedback on the current ideas we've had as well.

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Agreed. They did a nice update to what they plan to do for PUP (which there was much rejoicing from me). I am hoping they would address new enfeebles or a view into what they wish to make or plan to make for RDM.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

RDM was never a party buffer. Saying it is goes beyond the "square peg, round hole" metaphor. This is more like trying to fit the triangle peg into the star shaped hole. Seriously now, how many times was that question answered?

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the triangle peg actually fits in the star hole. :P

Only if it's the Star of David.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to a 5 pointed star.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Only if it's the Star of David.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to a 5 pointed star.

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I was just being silly. I haven't looked at one of those things in (30??) years.

Seriously though, people claiming Red Mages aren't party buffers is silly. The peg is a terrible analogy, in that anything will fit in the star shaped hole if the hole is big enough. In this case, what constitutes buffing a party is a big gray area, and red fits in it pretty damn often regardless of whether red mage is a "star" at it.

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

I was just being silly. I haven't looked at one of those things in (30??) years.

Seriously though, people claiming Red Mages aren't party buffers is silly. The peg is a terrible analogy, in that anything will fit in the star shaped hole if the hole is big enough. In this case, what constitutes buffing a party is a big gray area, and red fits in it pretty damn often regardless of whether red mage is a "star" at it.

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Ah but if the hole is so big that any peg can go in, is it really fitting?

Regen, Refresh, Haste, Protect and Shell are all we get to enhance others. This is part of the Jack of All Trades title. It can fit in that role if a specialist is not available, the same way it can be a nuker, DD, or main heal.

P2 but yeah.

You can cut 2 of those 4 off your list of 'can fit the role if no specialist available'.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

P2 but yeah.

You can cut 2 of those 4 off your list of 'can fit the role if no specialist available'.

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Whoosh. This isn't a debate.

Then you enjoy having a shitty Jack.

Obviously I'm not talking about filling ALL the roles at one time. Try not to be so anal about everything.

As soon as people stop bringing up that worn out phrase as if it means a crap.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

As soon as people stop bringing up that worn out phrase as if it means a crap.

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You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

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Jack of all trades doesn't apply to healing either so....

that said if people want to have digs at other people I hear a School Playground is a much better place to do it.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

Ah but if the hole is so big that any peg can go in, is it really fitting?

Regen, Refresh, Haste, Protect and Shell are all we get to enhance others. This is part of the Jack of All Trades title. It can fit in that role if a specialist is not available, the same way it can be a nuker, DD, or main heal.

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Yes, we "fit" in lots of roles. It would be nice if red mage skill set was reshaped to fit better, but for the mean time, haste, shell, refresh, protect and phalanx are all buffs that are expected to be used in a large portion of the game. Saying that the person who casts them isn't buffing the party is ass backwards.

Maybe we should tell people to stop calling 360 and ps3 game consoles. Afterall, my pc has better graphics and a larger available game catalog, so 360 and ps3 are clearly not game consoles.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

You're just upset that the "Master of None" finally applies to it's healing aspect.

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lolwut, are we playing the same game?

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Originally Posted by FrankReynolds

Yes, we "fit" in lots of roles. It would be nice if red mage skill set was reshaped to fit better, but for the mean time, haste, shell, refresh, protect and phalanx are all buffs that are expected to be used in a large portion of the game. Saying that the person who casts them isn't buffing the party is ass backwards.

Maybe we should tell people to stop calling 360 and ps3 game consoles. Afterall, my pc has better graphics and a larger available game catalog, so 360 and ps3 are clearly not game consoles.

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I think you've missed my point. Yes, it can fill in that spot, but it's not what defines the job. RDM has so much more going for it than "party buffer".

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

lolwut, are we playing the same game?

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I don't know, are we? You seem to be implying RDM's curing capacity is fine and is not in need of any proper adjustments.

No, I've always stated the opposite, you can see that pretty clearly on the Cure V thread.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

No, I've always stated the opposite, you can see that pretty clearly on the Cure V thread.

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I'm aware of your stance on the matter. I'm just giving you a hard time. Seriously though, what is wrong with my reasoning for RDM's few party-targetable buffs? All I can gather is that you don't like that I mentioned "Jack of All Trades".

I feel more like a 7 of clubs tbh.

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Originally Posted by saevel

You have these choices,

Dia III
Bio III
Blind II
Paralyze II
Slow II
Phalanx II

Out of those, Blind II is useless. Bio III is only good at 5/5 for really long solos. The leaves Paralyze II / Slow II / Dia III for enfeebles and Phalanx II for buffs. Out of all those Dia III is the most potent and useful. Phalanx is only good at 5/5, so using it requires you to dispose of Slow II / Paralyze II.

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This very reason that I honestly dont see why se dont just increase the max total merits for each group to 20 or even 30 and quit bs. Personally for rdm I would just rather have all those given as spells directly and just have group2 affect elemental potency myself but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Hinder: Increases the amount of TP required to use a special move.

When used on a mob, the amount of TP required for them to use a special move is increased by 30-75% which means less frequent special moves. Below 25% HP this means the mob will need a minimum of up to 175% TP to execute a TP attack instead of the usual 100%.


Dispel should get a bonus with Enfeebling Skill so that every 100ish Enfeebling Skill, Dispel will remove another debuff (RDM main only). We don't need to waste another spell slot on a tier 2, just make it scale like how Bio and Elemental Debuffs and Enhancing spells do with skill.

Poison III would be welcomed because 10-11/tick isn't much now that most NMs have 150k+HP now, besides BLU's Disseverment poison is already 16/tick.

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IF this scaling was implemented across the board for our enfeeble as well as enhancing magic spells, could this possible alleviate the need for Cure V. For the enfeebling spells that are already being scaled, maybe an increase in scaling to make it proc more thus reducing the need to cure. I feel this would be especially be useful for NM and regular mob beyond 85.

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Originally Posted by Stylin

I think you've missed my point. Yes, it can fill in that spot, but it's not what defines the job. RDM has so much more going for it than "party buffer".

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Yeah, actually it is just one of the things that define the job. Red Mage doesn't have one defining role. it has several. Party buffer is one of them.

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Originally Posted by Economizer

At this point, most of Red Mage's problems (and more relevant to this thread, defensive enfeebles, and other enhancing based moves) would be solved when they fix the merits.

It would be very easy for them. First remove Phalanx II as a spell. Then replace it with a merit that gives Red Mage a job trait that allows casting most buffs on other party members when under the effects of Composure. This would include Barspells, Aquaviel, Stoneskin, Blink, Phalanx, the Gain-STAT family of spells (but not Temper), and the spikes spells. It could also potentially include Reraise. Additional merits would increase the duration of spells, up to 50% (If I'm doing the math right, its multiplicative with the RDM AF3 gear, which means duration would be increased three fold with the full set, or at least that's the goal).

I know its slightly veering off topic, but that would also help Red Mage when it comes time to give out more defensive enfeebles.

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Seriously why you messing with my spell. I agree it shouldn't be a merit but removing this spell completely is bs. Well that is how it sounds per your wording. Hopefully you meant converting Phalanx II to an actual spell not completely removing it. If you want to do all that other stuff most of it is just taken care of by say...um... playing WHM?! OR /SCH and accession or whatever. On the other hand I guess it wouldn't make a difference to me if those spells were allowed because I dont main heal like ever but why add more crap to a rdm spell cycle for which you know everybody will be begging?

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Originally Posted by CapriciousOne

Seriously why you messing with my spell. I agree it shouldn't be a merit but removing this spell completely is bs. Well that is how it sounds per your wording. Hopefully you meant converting Phalanx II to an actual spell not completely removing it. If you want to do all that other stuff most of it is just taken care of by say...um... playing WHM?! OR /SCH and accession or whatever. On the other hand I guess it wouldn't make a difference to me if those spells were allowed because I dont main heal like ever but why add more crap to a rdm spell cycle for which you know everybody will be begging?

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I don't like cycles, but I would so merit it if they did a merit to increase duration of enhancing spells by 10% per level, so 50% at 5.

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Originally Posted by CapriciousOne

This very reason that I honestly dont see why se dont just increase the max total merits for each group to 20 or even 30 and quit bs. Personally for rdm I would just rather have all those given as spells directly and just have group2 affect elemental potency myself but whatever.

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It's what I've been saying for ages. Make all the "merit" spells available via NPC vender and change the merits into "potency / accuracy" merits. Slow II becomes "Slow Potency", Dia III becoms "Dia Potency" and so forth. This way you still get all your spells but also maintain the ability to pimp them out. Currently SE can't create "Tier III" enfeebles or a Dia IV due to the merit spells existing the way they are. It's become such a hindrance that they making lol spells like Break / Addle that mostly do nothing.