Talks about pld tanks always make me chuckle.
Pre Abyssea 90% of the parties wouldn't even start if the leader couldn't find a pld or a nin. But I guess no one remembers.
Isn't it strange how Ninjas are tanks?
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09-02-2011, 04:33 AMSeha
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09-02-2011, 05:45 AMRearden
The only time I remember leveling with a PLD post-ToAU was when I leveled it for Maat's jobs.
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09-02-2011, 08:08 AMZemarin
No its not strange that ninjas are tanks, they can take hits.. The only Requirements to be a tank is to be able to hold hate and to take hits. In that demeanor even a RDM or WHM could be a Tank if they could do any of that.... Also unlike pld Ninjas can also negate magic Damage. PLD could have gotten an AoE enmity gaining spell... but this game clearly is not Aion so :D
I think it's more strange how paladins CAN'T tank. -
09-02-2011, 10:37 AMMischiefmaker
PLD cant tank anymore cause DD abuse of ... well damaging..... if people would allow them to they would properly but nowdays you want fast kills so forget about it... unless really needed.
SAMs... they are awesome tankin... they can do it even way better than PLD and NIN in most stuff.... sadly the people playing SAM usually ignore about tankin and just think in kill faster(alot of times like a mater of, "i kill it first or i die"), i not tellin there dont be one or another SAM who actually does worry about tankin and avoid get hitted hard when they get hate, but lets be honest, most people doesnt.
NIN.... i remember when i was about to be impaled by all my LS partners whenever i defended NIN....tellin me they crappy, "they cant tank", "they cant damage"... blah blah blah... Look nowdays.... everyone want be NIN.... -
09-02-2011, 10:55 AMDebbieGibson
yeah everyone want to be nin because nothing is hard
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09-02-2011, 07:30 PMnoodles35590% of pickup parties were terrible because people still thought you had to fight IT+ monsters (Lesser Colibri at 52? What a great idea!). If you fought appropriate monsters and had proper party setups, you didn't need a Pld or Nin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
Sadly, none of the party makers realised this and continued to build mage + tank + 4 DD parties whilst targetting IT+ mobs. And because it was so standard practice to do it badly like this, those who could make good tanks against appropriate mobs like Sam, War and Mnk never realised their potential and assumed they couldn't tank and you needed a Pld or Nin as well. -
09-02-2011, 07:37 PMSeha
At the time if you even dared to ask a sam or war to tank they'd quit the party lol.
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09-02-2011, 07:38 PMSpankWustler
Our characters exist in a world where time both passes and doesn't pass, a mage can make your an individual poo so hard that he or she attains new levels of power, mute purple dogs with horns can master a virtually unknown spell, every beetle in the world shares a genetic deformity of the foot, and an entire pizza is eaten instantly then lasts for three days. We exist in a world in which this topic has 45-ish replies. Compared to all these things, Ninja being a tank is not strange at all.
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09-02-2011, 07:49 PMZhronneThink I kinda lost myself along the way, what are we talking here? Big NMs? (so alliances, not parties) I absolutely agree, it's just like you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
Or are we talking about XP pts? Because if that's what we're talking about then ToAU (and not Abyssea) and the new way of making XP with TPburns pts is what destroyed PLD in XP. And even before, PLD wasn't THAT common, think about weaponburns pts in sky, arrowburn, KRT burns etc. I don't really remember a lot of XP camps where you used PLD to XP. Lufaise meadows sure is one (rams/birds) and I'm sure there were a few more but it's not like "PTs didn't start if you didn't have a PLD", and you could go with NIN as well.
TBH before the Shield Mastery/Sentinel patch, NIN was usually considered a much better tank for the majority of content that required a classic setup. I remember that well because I was burning through CoP missions back in 2005 and everybody was going with NINs and have it the easy way while we were stuck with a PLD and had to re-do certain BCs countless times lol.
We didn't really have a lot of job flexibility back then, many of us weren't even 75 in ONE job xD (I was 72 when we killed Promathia :P PLD was 73) -
09-02-2011, 07:59 PMZhronne
Edit: I was kinda talking about end-game XP pts. So not necessarily merit pts but let's say at least 73+
All the way from 1 to 75 was a different story and yeah, PLD was very much apreciated there as well as NIN (especially after Utsusemi: Ni :P). I still remember dual nin/dual thf pts, with lots of SATAs goin on :D
The situation of the "Trinity System" inside of FFXI is very very odd. Currently there isn't a clear necessity for the Trinity System in most situations, but at the same time you can also clearly see that the game wasn't planned that way (there are indeed games planned NOT to have the trinity system since the beginning, but you can clearly see the difference).
So yeah, it gives me a lot of mixed feelings.
FFXI is a game planned on an expanded view of the Trinity System, but things have been balanced so bad through the years or, rather, they refused to fix/take counter action against certain habits raising within the player-base, that when they decided to do something it was too late and those habits were too strong and had been going on too long to just make them disappear, so they kinda tried to "adapt" themselves to those habits and allow them to exist, but at the same time they didn't really try to change the core of the game... It's like they wanted to keep a foot in both camps. I dunno, it's strange to see the situation of Tanks in FFXI when you compare it to most other mmorpgs, where the scenario is much clearer. -
09-02-2011, 08:49 PMDebbieGibson
I hated plds leveling from 40-55 in the old way, mp sinks and practically 0 damage. I always preferred ninjas up til 55, at which point I would just take a bunch of war/nins with no designated tank, worked great.
When people refer to sam tanking pre-abyssea, they aren't talking about exp or merit parties, who the hell needs tanks in those? They are talking about Khimaira, cerberus, znm bosses etc. -
09-02-2011, 11:05 PMscaevolaI quit one or two parties as WAR in the 30s-40s, after they asked me to tank and then got all hissy because I wouldn't use a shield or sub /NIN. Call me cheap but I still can't get around using a shihei to negate damage that, in total across three hits, amounts to less than the gil I spent on said shihei.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
Fun WAR/MNK-tanking fact that is totally irrelevant in the Year of Our Lord Two Thousand and Eleven: Boost's threat component is really noticeable at low levels!
Yeah; Seigan's quite powerful if somewhat unpredictable, and PDT/MDT sets really shined with it. I'd be really interested to see what somebody could do now with SAM/MNK at 90+, particularly if Counterstance counters are resolved differently than Seigan counters and thus wouldn't have a chance to bring down Third Eye.Quote:
When people refer to sam tanking pre-abyssea, they aren't talking about exp or merit parties, who the hell needs tanks in those? They are talking about Khimaira, cerberus, znm bosses etc.
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09-03-2011, 02:25 AMCaesaris
You guys are all forgetting to mention the obvious. This game was created with an Eastern style of mind. So Agility, Stealth, Speed, etc, are all heavily defining factors. Eastern oriented jobs tend to be better than the western oriented counterparts to those jobs. Ninja vs Paladin... of course ninja's got better and paladin's didn't. Warriors vs Monks for best DD... you're surprised that MNK is now THE best DD/TNK? I knew it from the first day i selected my character that this game was going to have a heavy influence of eastern culture entwined in it. Big, Tough and Bulky aren't strengths in eastern society... but small, agile, evasive and stealthy are. So that is the tank of choice. A Big, Tanklike paladin may appeal to those of us in the west, but obviously the game creators from the east prefer evasive, stealthy tanks.
Warrior was supposed to be THE tank job in this game when it was first created. But SE didn't give Warrior the tools to tank Zilart and Promathia mobs... they just hit too hard and too often. Monk, Samurai, and Ninja are what they are because of the society that this game comes from.
It's not wrong, it's not right... it just is. -
09-03-2011, 02:57 AMFrostSo your reply is "SE is racist, therefore ninja tank."Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesaris
That's quite a stretch there chief lol. -
09-03-2011, 03:09 AMscaevolaQuote:
Originally Posted by Caesaris
Warriors were perfectly capable of tanking pretty much everything in the game at that point. Given what we now know about enmity, they would have probably been better at it than PLDs or NINs.
Healers were just crybabies. -
09-03-2011, 03:27 AMhikobecause people where doing it wrong fighting IT monsters and asking A sam or war to be THE tank em.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
lvl75 colibri burns didnt need a tank, and if people stopped sync so Eronf/wajoam colibris check IT they wouldnt need one either -
09-03-2011, 12:35 PMLordscyon
Whm tank ftw with a lot of mp it's possible
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09-03-2011, 04:51 PMnoodles355Seriously this so much. Lesser Colibri at like 57ish was great exp, you could chain upwards of 10 easy and the only limiting factor was mob respawns. You didn't need a tank because they died so quick that healing wasn't a huge problem (Similar to merit PTs). But because the mobs would only give 110 or so on the first kill, idiots thoguht it was shitty and slow exp and you needed to fight IT+ mobs with their awesome 300+ exp to level quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by hiko
It wasn't just in Aht urgan either. I've been in a PT in Garliege Shitadel basement where we were fighting VT mobs (I think bats? maybe beetles too) and chaining way past 5 as well just because we were there at a better level to kill them quickly and get exp quickly. -
09-04-2011, 04:19 PMSpankWustler"Racism is a Broken Defense Equation" would be a pretty amazing title for a post-punk album if I could travel back to 1983 somehow. Thanks for that, I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Caesaris
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09-04-2011, 08:37 PMTheytak
ITT: People turn a silly thread about RPish job backgrounds into a BG community vs FFXIAH community debate about which jobs were or were not able to tank pre-abyssea.
I love you people :rolleyes:
as to the OP, I think of it like this: Yes, ninjas specialize in stealth and misdirection, but you know what? If you've got a guy dancing around you, weaving in and out of the shadows while poking you and throwing stuff in your face, he's probably going to be a lot more annoying than the guy who's just swinging a giant metal stick at you.
Similarly, plds tank by bitchslapping the opponent, "yea, you've got other guys fighting you, but LOOK HERE! *slap*. You can't touch them til you finish me off! *gutpunch*"
Think of it like this: plds keep hate by acting like Howard Stern, while ninjas force the mob to play whack-a-mole. I mean honestly, who doesn't get pissed off playing whack-a-mole?
Alternatively: Not all ninjas are stealthy. Some are loud, obnoxious, and wear neon-orange jump suits. Believe it. -
09-04-2011, 11:34 PMNeisan_Quetz
He's blending in with a crowd of Electrical workers.
Believe it. -
09-05-2011, 12:41 AMSparthos
I love how people use the "healers were crybabies" when prior to Abyssea Refresh was extremely difficult to acquire and thus the likelihood of being out of mana was high given DD took a ton of damage when you're fighting stuff like Mamool Ja that have TP moves that hurt (Rushing Drub/Slash/Firespit anyone?).
Colibri were the only mob where you could possibly hold mana and even there it could get dicey if DD couldn't drop the mobs fast enough. Nothing like Pecking Flurry hitting a zerked DD and watching as they need attention to stay alive... except you're tapped on mana because everyone is sponging.
For the average party pre Abyssea, the need for a Refresh was necessary because the average party wasn't killing fast enough to avoid TP moves.
It's funny watching some people revise history though. -
09-05-2011, 02:03 AMTamoaOhmygod that made me laugh! Thanks :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Theytak
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09-05-2011, 02:38 AMJuri_Licious
Confirmed, FFXI Ninjas are Naruto Shinobi.
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09-08-2011, 02:31 AMKarinya_of_CarbuncleI remember about a zillion "five random DDs with no mitigation and a RDM" parties, but maybe that's just because I played RDM. When I played COR I usually got four random DDs with no mitigation, a COR and some kind of healer (usually a RDM but sometimes WHM or SMN, or after WotG, SCH).Quote:
Originally Posted by Seha
Maybe you mean "pre ToAU". THAT was a different game, when parties needed tanks because non tanks could eat dirt from a single Sickle Slash or Death Scissors. (Heck, so could ninjas, sometimes.) And most mobs had enough def/eva that abilities designed to gain hate actually gained significant amounts of hate compared to just doing more damage.
DDs are tanks today because dealing damage is the only way to gain substantial hate in today's game. Hate control is dead, and with it, tanks that relied on it. Only the DD that accidentally became a tank while still keeping its full power as a DD has been able to survive and keep hate.
The big questions SE needs to answer about tanking:
1. Should tanks do as much damage as DDs? Regardless of what the answer is, it needs to be the same for all tanks. If some tanks have to give up damage to tank, they will be passed over for jobs who can be a DD and a tank at the same time. That's how PLDs lost their role to NINs in the first place, way back before the mid-2000s series of PLD buffs.
2. Should tanks be able to hold hate from solely their own efforts, or should hate control rely on multiple players? Anyone remember DRK/THF, SAM/THF, DDs not spamming all their abilities as fast as possible (or the healer getting pissed off at them when they did)? Again, this answer needs to be the same for all tanks; a job that relies on others to hold hate while other tanks can solo hate is not viable as a tank.
3. If tanks are expected to hold hate on their own, but not by doing as much damage as DDs, where is their extra hate coming from? Hate grabbing abilities like Provoke and Flash are drastically lacking in effectiveness in post-75 content.
SE may have made some progress in designing mobs whose attacks aren't a complete joke if you have shadows, but if they don't know what they're doing with the above questions, tanking won't return as a separate role in a party/alliance -- for PLD or anyone else. "Tank" will just be another word for "the DD that does the most damage, gets hit the most, and needs the most cures". -
09-08-2011, 07:29 AMSoranika
For PLD to take the reigns on being THE tank job, they obviously need greater, natural physical and magical defense while giving newer mobs the the ability to eat right through shadows (Titan's Earthen Armor seems like an ability PLDs would have benefited from being a job ability or job specific white magic). And also obvious more enmity control... but to be fair, many support jobs now have abilities to mitigate and control hate so there's actually no reason PLD can't be tanks now still. But of course, people go for either raw zerg damage or play it safe with shadow tanks instead of utilizing some strategy in a well formed team of people who actually know what to do with their jobs to work together.
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09-08-2011, 01:44 PMPsxpert2011That had to my favorite 'Loooool moment'! XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Tamoa
Believe me that even now Paladins are thee Tank in the game: Then, now and forever. Just don't remind me when I have to flash a mob just so the Ninja in the party can finally cast his/her shadows for the 5th time because one more hit from that IT mob, I would definitely be taking back the role of "Tank" and start covering other "hate-gainers".
There's good Paladins and there's not-so-good Paladins. Get the right gear, get any gear with DEF and magic DEF. They exist and Ninjas would do their part but wouldn't necessarily tank so good naked. Taking dmg is part of the claim process and then merits help with enmity and DEF. I had fun while I was a Pld cause I took dmg like no other and damn proud of it. White mages didn't need to worry about curing so much because I Did That Too! I could merit my chivalry time down some and I would never run out of magic XD. It took a lot to bring me down. Sometimes not having the right magic DEF gear would be my down-fall >.<
Yeah Ninjas, Red mages and Dancers... same story... just show-offs in my book. Just add armor to them, and you'd have a Paladin. We can now enLight,lol! -
09-09-2011, 05:55 PMFANCY60
Are we comparing the tanking capabilities of a sam to a pld, please why argue off the point the op is making anyway. i believe that Ninja tanking was an oversight on SE part cause of utsu but after that they decided to run with it thats all. i remember when nin and sam were introduced and that was what i observed at the time. p/s yes sam would have made a better tank but it didnt pan out that way so like i said SE ran with the ninja.
its all about balance when square introduced new jobs, they wont know the effects it would have on the game until its tested by us. hence the ninja tanking issue and as someone has clearly stated above pre ToAU (remember no cor blu dnc sch) plds were sort after but now i have even been in parties in and out of abyssea that had great dnc tanks too