Poor Poor Rdm...useless as ever even to 95

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Originally Posted by Ank

I'm sorry, What?

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He means composure

Ah, thanks. That was an odd moment.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

He means composure

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rofl, Composure's accuracy bonus doesn't mean jack inside abyssea...thanks for the clear-up.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I count +70 enhancing max for sch from a quick search on XIAH, and +79 for Rdm. Care to tell me where the missing 10 skill is coming from? Also Phalanx 2 was buffed so it's equal-ish to 1 at 5/5 now, with longer duration from Rdm (although you only get cape+feet+2/5 set bonus for duration as opposed to 5/5).

EDIT: Forgot waist slot for Sch

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Re-looked into it myself, you're right. I must've had an error when I looked into that. >_> I stand corrected.

I did do some looking into Cure V, however, and to give people an idea what RDM and SCH are capable of with this spell:

RDM- You're lucky to break 1k. Cure potency, on RDM, reaches up to ~42% at this point as far as I'm aware, using Augur's gloves and Estoqueur's Houseaux +2 (The large MND boost beats 1% extra from serpentes).

SCH- Won't break 1k, but using Rapture + Savant's Bonnet +2 (+60%) you're capable of doing 1500+, which is stronger than a WHM's Cure VI usually. That isn't factoring abyssea (cruor buffs or atma) either. There's a reason they haven't given SCH this yet, and I think that's probably one of the reasons.

I do have to laugh @ the raise 2/3 additions to these jobs though. Seems kinda pointless with the ease EXP is to get.

46% actually, not that it matters by much. the missing 4% is probably Augmented Z pumps.

The good thing about R2 for RDM isn't the EXP but the fact that we now have 2 Raise spells to use so we don't have to ride R1 timers in an emergency.

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

SCH- Won't break 1k, but using Rapture + Savant's Bonnet +2 (+60%) you're capable of doing 1500+, which is stronger than a WHM's Cure VI usually. That isn't factoring abyssea (cruor buffs or atma) either. There's a reason they haven't given SCH this yet, and I think that's probably one of the reasons.

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This is a big number, but if you include the Cureskin from Cure VI and consider it requires a stratagem, White Mage is still in the lead by miles. I could see people being upset if they just go by the huge number that pops up in the chat log, but I hope the development team doesn't let petty stuff like that affect their decisions.

As for this update and Red Mage: If Temper can be cast on anyone, Red Mage just became awesome. If not, at least the Red Mages who inexplicably want to hit things with things are happy. Either way, somebody wins.

I'm reserving judgment on Temper until we confirm that it is targetable and functions as Mythic Weapon style OAT and not Joyeuse.

If it IS like Joyeuse, then SE fails hard. Still waiting for that enfeebling magic update too - it'd be nice if every NM under the sun wasn't either super resistant or outright immune the spells that would help most for that fight - like Silence, Break, Gravity etc. God forbid a RDM may actually be able to perform it's intended function.

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I could see people being upset if they just go by the huge number that pops up in the chat log, but I hope the development team doesn't let petty stuff like that affect their decisions.

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From my experience they don't really worry about anything in the game. They just look at definitions.

WHM: Best healing job. Ok, then we don't give cure V to other jobs.

This is also a large reason behind getting stuff that sound fitting, but aren't. Like stunga which sounds awesome, is terrible due to the actual ready animation time. But it really sounded like a Ramuh would be casting this spell, so SE are happy.

Sometimes I wish SE actually worked on balance rather than definitions.

Personaly i allways wondered why Se never went the path of magic melee = greater dmg in exchange for rdm's mana per hit, kinda like a mini version of drk's Souleater ability but for the magic melee and drain mp instead of hp on rdm.

It could have augemented all spell's like spikes, enspells, stoneskins/blink and the mana drain would be adjusted to avoid mass abuse from haste party zerg/Kc zerg alternetivly give the best boost to en2 spells or have the requirment be sword/dagger for ability use.

im in no way sugesting it should yield tier 4-5 spell dmg from strikes but it should be in in the 100-200 at least.
The spikes would hit harder when ur struck with ability active and stoneskin would add some more amount of dmg it can take in % but for cost of mana, blink would have more shadows at cost of some mana for the extras.

Another ability that would rock for rdm would be one that activate on element of enspell u use, like enfire2 would give DA trait with that ability on and enthunder2 would grant Crit rate trait active, enbliz2 would boost MAB, making the rdm a further and better caster if one chose to be backline, or enwater2 for a cure potency trait.

But im loving the idea of rdm getting some kind of DA spell.
Ive played rdm as my first job and loved the fact that i could be melee/healer/DD caster/Defeebler and swap roles as needed at lower levels, but alas it all went sour after i hit near mid 40's - late 40's and i become the mindless refresh/haste/dispel bot that sometimes was allowed to cast ele spells but never again go frontline, after 50's it got worse and i was made into a main healer and i ended up hating rdm in Partyand left the job at 55 for 5 years, until i ended up relevling it in 2010 in FOV Duo box refinding what i loved about rdm, the ability to swap roles, not be locked in one forever.

as for the cure5 discusion i dont think i would mind it as long as it dont mean a return to single role, if anything i wish SE takes the last 9 levels to give RDM back it's old form of an jack of all trade, and refocus on all of RDM's ability's enfeeb defeeb element sword-magic.

Oh and i wish the devs would either fix the enspell2's weaknes effect to be aligned with the element of the spell so u dont have to use enwater2 on crabs for weakning them to lightning when crabs r resistant to water spells, it dosnt make any sense or give us a new set 3 that weakenes to same element as the spell u cast.( it may make sense on nin spells but not on enspells)

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Originally Posted by Malacite

I'm reserving judgment on Temper until we confirm that it is targetable and functions as Mythic Weapon style OAT and not Joyeuse.

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What's the difference exactly? The way it interacts with other forms of Double Attack? Meh. I'd be content with a straight +DA% like Fighter's Roll (except not random, obviously, since random strength buffs are COR specific -- it should be equivalent to a decent, but not perfect, roll).

For current content, though, it doesn't matter how it functions or even what the duration/recast/cost/%DA given is, it's still crap. The target can get tp faster, but only by feeding tp to the mob faster, which everyone hates and fears. (Even if the TP moves themselves aren't dangerous, it still screws with proc timing.) Most melees aren't meleeing most of the time anyway. Regain atma and just pop in to WS is much safer, especially on things with dangerous AOE.

If you didn't want the DRK in party to hit the mob once per round before, you certainly don't want them to hit the mob twice per round now.

Even using it on the tank is slightly worse than not using it -- both sides get tp faster which makes tp moves come more often, annoying the BLM and slightly increasing the danger that one will land while shadows are stripped and the tank didn't get them back up due to recasts/paralyze/silence/whatever.

It would be great for content like classic Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, or Nyzul where you have a lot of mobs to kill in limited time, probably have some CC'd, and you want to deal as much damage to them as possible quickly without worrying about how much TP you're giving them. But that kind of content doesn't exist anymore, or only exists in its level 75 form which will be even more trivialized by level 95 players than it was by level 90s. Current content is all about the endurance fights on single targets and TP starving the mob (not to mention reducing the number of players in AOE range) is a crucial part of the strategy for nearly everything.

Unless and until SE brings back many vs. many content, Temper will have little use and less desirability.

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Still waiting for that enfeebling magic update too - it'd be nice if every NM under the sun wasn't either super resistant or outright immune the spells that would help most for that fight - like Silence, Break, Gravity etc. God forbid a RDM may actually be able to perform it's intended function.

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That's why SE gave us Addle, which actually works on spellcasting HNMs (because unlike other enfeebles, its effect when it lands is not powerful enough to drastically reduce the difficulty of an 18-on-1 fight). Why they then turned around and gave it to WHM, I have no idea -- it's not like WHM have trouble getting into parties. But maybe WHMs will decide that they're too busy to keep up Addle and suggest that the party invite a RDM to do it. (Or maybe they'll actually have resist problems with it -- after all, they don't have +40 skill from their AF, AF2 and AF3+1 alone; for that matter, they don't even have an A+ rating in enfeebling.)

I'm less bothered by BRD getting a similar spell, since, for one thing, they might stack. Songs generally stack with non-songs with similar effects. Even if they don't, BRD is rare enough to not be a major threat to another job's invite rates.

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Originally Posted by Olor

well, if RDM had procs, no one would be whining about abyssea. But since the majority of jobs got a raw deal on that - and most of the good gear out there now is found in abyssea - why shouldn't people complain?

I mean, I dunno man, do you like having to level a job you don't want to play so you can get gear for the job you do want to play (kind of pointless to even bother with the gear since no one will let you join their nm runs anyway)?

I don't. I mean seriously. Why shouldn't rdm complain? What is there to do outside of Abyssea?

Voidwatch? Crappy drops, wonky system, no one wants to do it.
Dynamis? Mostly outdated gear, a few new items that pretty much no one is interested in bothering with since better stuff can be had easier in abyssea?
Salvage? lol.
Campaign? omfglol

So, yeah, I can see why people are asking for an ability which will allow them to get invites on the job they want to play.

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you speak about lvl90 content. Move to lvl95(99)!
what do you know about lvl95 content?
Voidwatch tier II might get good drop (still need to fix drop system)
if the DA spell is not self only its a nice buff
Dynamis? hello relic+2 mats

Rdm had it golden all that time at 75. Us drk's dont wanna hear it'

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Originally Posted by Fredjan

SCH- Won't break 1k, but using Rapture + Savant's Bonnet +2 (+60%) you're capable of doing 1500+, which is stronger than a WHM's Cure VI usually. That isn't factoring abyssea (cruor buffs or atma) either. There's a reason they haven't given SCH this yet, and I think that's probably one of the reasons.

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Did you consider the weather bonus that SCH can full-time with Aurorastorm + Korin Obi + Twilight Cape? Without that I believe SCH has access to 38% gear potency. With the 15% from Weather + obi + cape (always procs), which is multiplied outside of (and not subject to) the gear cap, SCH now gets a possibility of +59% (1.38*1.15 floored) to cure potency with Aurorastorm, without atmas or Rapture. I believe that would put Cure V well over 1k. I put my standard numbers standing in Jeuno into Furen's cure calculator, used 38% gear potency and light weather and got 1071. That's without the Twilight Cape bonus, which should bring it to 1120 (cape + obi considered together at 1.15 multiplier).

RDM has only started being useless since the level cap raise from 75, so "as ever is" not really the best way of putting it.

i like my refresh wh0res~

Welcome to thf/drk/pld town. It is suffering.

Precisely - if Temper doesn't stack with Double/Triple Attack ala Joyeuse, then people are going to hate it. Especially since that means it can't proc on WS.

So no, it's pretty far from "meh" if that's how it works.

Inside Abyssea, Temper will probably not turn out so hot... But Outside, it should prove to be extremely useful even if it works like Joytoy.

I think the interesting points about Temper that we'll have to wait to see are if it stacks with DA/TA/QA (Unlikely I feel :(), if it can be casted upon others (I'm guessing it'll be your immediate party only, like Refresh/Regen), how much it'll OAT, and if it works on both main-hand and off-hand weapons (or both fists for H2H).

RDM at 90 is a RDM75 with Tier 4 nukes and a stronger refresh.

I thought Temper would just be a 5%~ increase to Double Attack.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

RDM at 90 is a RDM75 with Tier 4 nukes and a stronger refresh.

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Could be worse. SMN at 90 is a SMN75 with higher perpetuation cost and the ability to quickly remove 100 MP. According to patch notes SMN at 95 will be the same. At least they'll fix everything at level 99.

Eh SMN can be good in Abyssea, I see some sweet 4-5k Heavenly Strikes, 8k with proc. Ifrit's Favor can give your party +25% DA when capped, that's pretty wonderful, especially outside Abyssea when ppl will miss VV/Apoc

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Eh SMN can be good in Abyssea, I see some sweet 4-5k Heavenly Strikes, 8k with proc. Ifrit's Favor can give your party +25% DA when capped, that's pretty wonderful, especially outside Abyssea when ppl will miss VV/Apoc

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I'm not saying it is bad. I'm saying nothing changed. While RDMs actually got new spells, even if IV spells aren't that fancy.

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Originally Posted by Ophannus

Eh SMN can be good in Abyssea, I see some sweet 4-5k Heavenly Strikes, 8k with proc. Ifrit's Favor can give your party +25% DA when capped, that's pretty wonderful, especially outside Abyssea when ppl will miss VV/Apoc

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o-O the hell? Really?

I'm not quite so apocalyptic about Red Mage as things stand right now. There still needs to be some fixes to make the job stand out on its own as opposed to /WHM or /SCH, but it is nowhere near useless. The adjustments to NM enfeebling is welcome, though a rather startling indictment of the developers' bungled attempt at stopping Red Mages/Black Mages/Scholars from soloing NMs through Enfeebling/DoT. Though it will no longer be exclusive to RDM at 95, Addle is quite a valuable spell for the job and gives stunners a bigger window to stop -ga IV/tier V spells. The group 2 merit spells could stand an overall rise to the merit point limit to allow more improvement in their potency and effectiveness.

Some more attention to the martial side of RDM would be nice (Temper will be a great start if, in fact, it is limited to oneself and Accessionable), but it should not be treated as the magic bullet to the job's identity issues.

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Originally Posted by Malacite

o-O the hell? Really?

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And would it surprise you to know that I've been turned down constantly when I offered this to people? They rather have nothing... no seriously, they wanted nothing up instead.