Apparent the people saying whm played 2nd fiddle to rdm never did anything more than merit.
dev1024 - healing magic
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08-21-2011, 12:40 AMDebbieGibson
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08-21-2011, 12:55 AMTRiPP
Currently as it is Cure V is a hot topic with Red Mage. The fact still remains that we got shafted on a healing spell. It doesn't matter who or what hates to main heal. (To be honest, I end up main healing in events because our White Mages sucked horrendously) and that's putting it nicely. So having something to fall back on would be nice. However as most of us can see that some people are still living in 2005, again I'm partial to the high Regen based on our enhancing skill so that it means a damn again.
Until then Cure V would suffice then when SE implements this other means to an alternate Cure, Cure V could easily be removed. (I'm sure most of us have WHM leveled to that degree at least, so it's not as if we'd be getting overly screwed if we lost Cure V and gained a decent Regen.)
Still with White Mage getting bumped off it's high horse with another job getting Cure V, it wouldn't happen. (This coming from a RDM Main and as a WHM as well.) Those who are assuming that WHM would lose it's throne as a top healer if another job gained Cure V, are either horribly White Mages themselves and forget to use the tools implemented with their jobs or have horribly White Mages running around with them. If you haven't noticed the buffs that Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Misery grant you/us.* (* For those of us who have RDM and WHM) Whereas Afflatus Solace grants White Mage's Cure (Any of them) a small bit of damage mitigation, if not a decent amount depending on the Cure and how much is recovered. Afflatus Misery grants a bonus to Esuna, whereas it removes more detrimental debuffs off of players. Judging by no mention of these tools or even a second thought that you're taking them for granted. Shame really.
So please, before throwing wild accusations. At least play both jobs and then reassess the situation.
I'm up for the high Regen. However, it's not implemented. -
08-21-2011, 01:08 AMDydy
Me i'll say one thing, i have rdm and whm lvl upped, whm is cool in abyssea because ppl have hp boost, all ppl are taking dmg, need to cure fast, and you have atma for save your mp, but out of abyssea i keep thinking rdm is the best healer, you wont really go out of mp you'll always have Refresh II,, whm wont have it out of abyssea, a lot of ppl are using only cure V or VI, most the of the new whm are doing that, but all good and old player will know rdm is the best healer out of abyssea, good mp, (i'm a lil hume i can up to 1k mp out of abyssea, refresh 9 mp per tick with the good items) so out of abyssea if you have a rdm for healer you are supposed to be able to stay alive longer no ?
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08-21-2011, 01:10 AMDydy
But it's sure a lil cure V would be nice for abyssea :P (^.^) (really ? RAISE TWO ON RDM ? naaaa <_<)
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08-21-2011, 01:19 AMsaevel
@Tripp you don't want Cure V trust me, it'll cement you permanently as the back line cure / haste b1tch forever. You don't want a return to the days of "pink mage", its the worst thing that could happen to RDM again.
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08-21-2011, 01:41 AMDebbieGibson
MP efficiency is not now and was not at 75 the main concern in anything but merits and plowman.
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08-21-2011, 02:36 AMCymminaBeing able to save someone with a ~900 hp cure would be a horrible thing, I totally agree. I mean, casting Cure IV and watching them die before I can follow-up with a Cure III is pretty cool.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
Enhancing magic other than Haste and Shell needs to be worth casting. Enhancing, you remember? That other thing RDMs are supposed to be good at. A SCH who has every scrap of +Enhancing gear available can make Phalanx reduce damage taken by -33 (assuming the formula and my math is correct). That's like pissing in the ocean compared to damage dealt by today's high end NMs. No one bothers with Phalanx outside of Cleaving/Whiskering or Salvage because it's just more efficient to cure through it. -
08-21-2011, 03:27 AMKuvo
I've been playing RDM since the game was released in the fall of 2003 in NA and I'll tell you that I am glad we didn't get Cure5. The only reason why is that it WILL put us back into the healer role like it was before abyssea. I'm with most of you that SE needs to add a spell or 2 that adds some kind of Cure over Time or temp bonus affect or whatever. What I would like to see tho is what SE has planned when they say they are making RDM's role as a party enhancer better and our enfeebles stronger. They should also make it so that our enfeebles are needed to defeat certain NMs. Inside abyssea and outside. Our enhancing and enfeebling needs to be more of a party NEED then a "well it's nice to have but we don't need it" Similar to how every party needs a tank, plain and simple. Even if it's a thf evasion tanking... it's still a tank.
If SE just makes those areas we excel at as a party need for most Exping, NM, or whatever then we might stand a chance in the lvl 99 endgame. -
08-21-2011, 03:59 AMZatias
Enfeebling is RDM's strongpoint, but that doesn't matter when the majority of NMs have an extreme resistance or even immunity to enfeebles. I hope this changes at the final cap.
Yes Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.
If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs. -
08-21-2011, 04:02 AMAhranaYou're making stuff up Bubeeky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubeeky
1. White mages have always been wanted end game because cure IV generates too much hate, especially in long fights.
2. Scholars have never been wanted over white mages because they lack haste. I've never heard of scholars being invited to bird camps back at 75 over white mages, which is why they always ended up at the pudding camps with the black mages.
3. There's only one explaination that makes sense why they decided to give red mages and scholars raise spells to address the healing gap between them and white mages. -
08-21-2011, 04:04 AMTRiPP
@saevel I keep hearing "Pink mage." To be honest, so what? It just makes the rest of your party survive should I say when it lacks a white mage. However, I doubt that it would staple you to the back support should we say, they improved our meleeing quite a bit, at least if anything noticeable. However, as it stands our meleeing is a joke. So why not be efficient at something at least? Or do we not want to be efficient at anything? Is that the case? Our enfeebling is a joke in most cases, our elemental is a joke in most cases, and our healing as well. Our enhancing well, that's just lol to begin with. Unless Phalanx gets a total fix of making it a percentage instead of direct damage. It's rather lol. White Mage has a strangle hold on Barspells. As it occasionally nullifies damage. So what do we have? If nothing spectacular if that nothing at all?
I understand all the rage about meleeing, but to be honest unless they improve several things on that note for Red Mage, I see as being useless in the long run. Temper may increase double attack, but unless if it's something noticeable and it adds the trait to jobs that don't have it. It'll still make you as useless as we are. So, the choice is well not really yours, nor mine, except for SE's. If they want to kill off Red Mages because we can't get anything useful to even make our job unique, then what's the point? There isn't. In b4 "We'll give you something awesome, but... we're also going to give it to White Mage. K?"
Convert was our thing, now everyone can utilize it, Refresh was our thing now everyone can utilize it. Addle was ours to begin with, now White Mage gets it? Really? Inb4 "WELL WE SAW IT WHEN WE WERE DATA MINING." I could care less. What your data mining has seen. Point is, Red Mage needs things to make it stand out and as does Scholar, something that's for those jobs and not whored out to White Mage or every other Mage job.
The options for Melee Rage Mage are simple, allow us to merit Fast Cast and Composure. Composure could grant us high tiered Weapon Skills, as well as accuracy, haste and subtle blow. (Each merit would increase/add a certain percentage.)
Make enhancing mean a damn thing again, change the direct damage from Phalanx to percentage negated. Make enhancing make En-spells become decent. We're hitting the 95-99 marker. We should at least if anything in the minimal be able to make en-spells STICK out.
As for the guy who came up with Pink Mage, that's a fairly creative nickname for a Red Mage who can heal. However, it's either Pink mage or retard with a stick. Your choice. I don't see people calling Dark Knight with Monk sub jobs Dark Monks. Or Warriors known as Wank because Retaliation is a form of counterstance. (Either way you look at it, it is a form of countering.) Tell you what, we can revisit the Meleeing and front line when Red Mage gets a spell for Subtle blow and a native Vorpal Blade and anything else that comes with that territory. In b4 sub warrior lololol. You would have to be rather MP efficient. On top of that why the hell should we have to sub warrior to use something that should natively be ours?
Whatever you can point out that we as Red Mage's have for us, there's always someone, somewhere out there that can debunk it. It's just that simple. -
08-21-2011, 04:13 AMAhrana
Honestly pink mage has been around since 2004, although back then it was a rdm/whm. Specifically, a redmage who focused on enfeebling, healing, and curing status over nuking with /blm.
To be fair though it's been a pretty elastic term over the years. -
08-21-2011, 04:30 AMStylin
I don't even understand what the fuss about Addle is. The spell isn't exactly a game changer.
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08-21-2011, 04:30 AMZatias
RDM is supposed to enfeeble more than nuke. Not a very strong point XD
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08-21-2011, 04:58 AMTRiPP
Red Mage our forte was enfeebling, most NM resist our crap or outright immune to our enfeebles. Blind? can't use that, it's ineffective, Slow? Can't do that either it's immune. Paralyze? Immune. Oh but it casts magic, let's cast Addle. <_>; Even if it doesn't really do much difference except just slow the mob's casting enough to be interruptable in *some* cases. Then again, some NMs just have that whole "Hay guyz, I didn't use chainspell but I'm going to fast cast left and right just bcuz i can lulz arent u jelouz."
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08-21-2011, 04:59 AMsaevelExcept RDM never "Enfeebled" even then. It wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Ahrana
Haste
Refresh
Cure IV
Haste
Refresh
Cure IV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
Haste
Refresh
CureIV
And that about summed up RDM as the rest of the world saw them. Trying to do ANYTHING outside that got you yelled at. Throw out a nuke and the PT leader yells that you should use that MP to cure him, pull out a sword and you get booted and ridiculed. Enfeebles .... nobody cared, ever.
Stop trying to put it out like RDM used to play as some sort of hybrid, that is not what happened. We were WHM-2 because a group couldn't get a WHM. Then later once ToAU came out and it was melee friendly, we were used as WHM-2 because the group didn't need a WHM and figured with convert, refresh, haste and Cure IV they could pack more DD power and just use us as healer alone.
At NO point in time prior to abyssea was RDM ever looked at as a nuker, enfeebler, or anything outside of a Haste / Refresh / Cure robot. Want to know why RDM isn't popular inside abyssea, it's not that we don't have things to offer, its that the groups can't put us in as a WHM-2 for Haste / Refresh / Cure V support. This is solely due to Cure IV not being strong enough to main heal on. The moment RDM can cast Cure V, you'll be thrown back in as a WHM-2 main healer and never allowed to leave. But all of you asking for Cure V already know this, and you have no intentions of actually playing the job. Instead you want it so that you can use someone else's RDM to main heal your group when you can't find a WHM. Or you'll use it to get yourselves into abyssea groups to get the +1/+2 items for your BST, BLU, DRK, PUP, SMN or other job that wouldn't normally get picked.
This is from someone who's been playing this job since before we got Refresh, Convert, Gravity, Dispel or Phalanx. -
08-21-2011, 05:27 AMSalvation
I suppose the obvious solution here is to give RDM and SCH access to Cure V while under the effects of visitant status. Seeing as the majority of the complaints tend to focus on healing inside Abyssea this solution should make everyone happy.
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08-21-2011, 05:49 AMSpankWustlerNobody else answered this seriously because it might as well be "Magnets! How do they work?!" but I guess I will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliciaa
A 300-400 HP stoneskin effect from Cure V and Cure VI, the ability to cast Cure V and Cure VI back to back when things are really bad, the strongest Shell effect in the game often supplemented by the strongest appropriate bar-spell, slightly superior status effect removal, vastly superior AoE cures when such a thing is applicable, Auspice in some situations, Esuna in some situations, Sacrifice in some situations, and probably some other stuff I'm forgetting.
Please stop using a merit party in 2006 to gauge how jobs work across all of FFXI in 2011. -
08-21-2011, 06:01 AMDebbieGibson
What is this BS about rdm not being unique? Abyssea has royally fucked up people's ideas about this game. Back at 75, having 330+ enfeebling skill was enough to be unique.
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08-21-2011, 07:41 AMDuelleGlad to see I'm not the only one who still remembers this. Was beginning to wonder if certain people around here were being selectively amnesiac or whether they really forgot what RDM play was like back then. The WHM-2 bit is spot on, too. It was used to fill the gap left in the pool of healers, and once endurance entered the game in the way of Refresh and Convert, it was bye-bye WHM for a notable span of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-21-2011, 08:47 AMDaniel
make is so whms can't cast refresh and convert, give me an enfeeble worth casting and I won't ask for cure V.
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08-21-2011, 08:57 AMcidbahamutSo we're back to citing merit parties and/or terrible Red Mages as the core foundations of the argument against giving Red Mage additional tools that would assist party performance and help balance out the death-grip White Mage has on the role of healer? Because seriously, there are twenty jobs in this game and you want me to believe that it's perfectly fine to have exactly one of them capable of performing the duties of healer, which is just silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-21-2011, 09:32 AMTRiPP
Let it be known that past experiences will guide your opinions of future updates, regardless of how much things have changed.
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08-21-2011, 09:32 AMFeliciaa
HoT spells would be a great way to deal with this issue instead of giving Rdm cure 5. That way whm is still hands down the best healer regardless of mp conservation and rdm can now some what keep ppl alive.
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08-21-2011, 02:57 PMQuetzacoatl
You know, I keep hearing about the whole cureskin argument when backing up WHM in its curing power over RDM, and let me say...
If RDM were to get Cure 5, who cares if they can even get a stoneskin effect or not as long as they have the MP regeneration to support the person's HP bar? What would there be to worry about as long as they have 11MP/Refresh in both gear, AF3+2 Legs and Refresh 2 Spell, along with the extra Minikin Monstrosity Atma inside Abyssea (an additional 10 MP refresh)? That's 21 MP/Tic if you don't have a Subligar with Refresh+1. Then it would be 22 MP/Tic, and you would already have regained half of the MP cost of Cure 5 in just three seconds over the base recast time Cure 5 has. In 6 seconds flat that's approximately 132 MP returned.
I should also add that this would take /SCH's MP conservation to newer heights with Light Arts up and SCH's Conserve MP Trait running through as a Subjob. That's 33 MP (rounded down) shaved off when it kicks in. So effectively you could almost NEVER run out of MP spamming Cure 5.
Not to mention, with the cherry on top, Atma of the Rescuer would stack on top of a decent Cure Potency set with that Cure Potency+10%, on top of a Fast Cast effect (8~10%) to keep the target's remaining amount of HP topped long enough to, again, keep the MP Flow going. And IF we were to get our enfeebles to work come the next update, we'd already be doing what WHMs were already doing in Abyssea with Tier 1 Paralyze and Slow. We'd just be in their shoes again, just with a load of Refresh on our backs. =\
Oh, and don't tell me Cure 5 will be just as good outside for RDM. Cure 4's there for that, and Cure 6 to WHM is Cure 5 for RDM in that instance- It would be far too powerful to even be MP-efficient before Abyssea.
Square-Enix, I would advise you to look into the regen line of spells and create something based off a mix of Cures and Regen for Red Mage. Kind of like what you did with Helix/Kaustra, except for Enhancing Magic. -
08-21-2011, 03:31 PMsaevel
As I've said before, those advocating for "Just give RDM Cure V" have no intention of playing the job. They only care about two things, one being that they have a replacement for WHM as a main healer, and the other being that they can use RDM to get gear for their "real" undesired jobs. RDM and BRD has historically suffered from the bandwagon mentality, with people jumping on to use it as an easy ride into HNM shells and eventually merit parties (once merits were invented). And every since Abyssea became popular these people have since used WHM, BLM and NIN to accomplish the same thing. This is evidenced at the ridiculous price jumps in all the WHM / BLM / NIN spells, especially the yellow proc ones.
I'd prefer that SCH got access to Cure V under addendum white and SE just give RDM the rest of the Regen spells and a special RDM only super regen. We don't need to be replacing WHM's as main healers, we need to be supporting them. -
08-21-2011, 03:44 PMSpankWustlerInside Abyssea, this is true of pretty much any job casting pretty much anything. Well, excluding a Dark Knight casting Impact or a Black Mage cycling through expensive proc spells as fast as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl
I agree that giving each job with support elements a unique solution to the issue of "People be losing HP, brosef!" would be best, though. White Mage has brute-force HP restoration, Scholar could have Humpty Hump's Healing Helix, and Red Mage could have Stoneskin II and some other enhancing magic to prevent HP loss in the first place.
They could all work together to heal people optimally when in a party or alliance and in their free time they could form Captain Planet.
For something that's generally difficult and requires 6+ people to do efficiently, such as VoidWatch, White Mage being the only viable healer works fine. Having exactly one healer that works in Abyssea, which is very laid-back content otherwise, is kind of lame.
Other jobs receiving Cure V would be a really boring solution and far from my first choice, but I'd be okay with it compared to the current situation. -
08-21-2011, 04:25 PMQuetzacoatl
I hear you on that one, Spank. As someone else said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-21-2011, 10:28 PMcidbahamutExcept not really. When a monster swings and puts people in the red and you need them back up to at least yellow right away, Cure IV and even a Regen IV isn't going to cut it. The only way healing over time could make up the deficiency is if it was so monstrously powerful that it had White Mages in a fit over us stealing their Regen thunder. I'm talking hundreds of hp per tic, lasts more than a couple seconds kind of healing over time. I'm not sure that would be at all permissible from a game balance perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feliciaa
One tic is equal to three seconds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quetzacoatl
Please don't use incorrect math to confuse people like this.
You're only going to get back at most 44 mp over those six seconds, and that's only if you don't cast anything else during that time. -
08-21-2011, 10:32 PMcidbahamutDo you really believe this?Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
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08-21-2011, 11:58 PMReauxRDM and SCH are support classes get over it. They were never made to be just as good healers or nukers as their respective counter parts. Their strength comes from which subs they choose and how they support the party as a whole. So youre Cure IV is weaker...you have 2 choices use a Helix to make your spell stronger, or keep Regen-ga up on party members so the WHM can focus on other buffs and supporting the tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
As RDM you can refresh the WHM to let them use higher Cure's in quick succession while you top people off they can''t get to immediately. But this is all providing you want those job to be healers and forget their other abilities and duties. Because certain pieces of equipment give bonus if aligned with the right weather, yay for helix. SCH can also help tanks keep hate by increasing emnity gain. RDM is still the only job with Tier 2 enfeebles that can land consistently on HNMs and has an easy and simple way to change a mobs resistance with Enspells. -
08-21-2011, 11:58 PMQuetzacoatlGah, touché on that one. My point is though, the target's HP will be able to be sustained long enough with cure 5 to be able to refresh that MP back, including the conserve MP proc and light arts savings, considering your tank is decent enough to sustain himself for that long.Quote:
Originally Posted by cidbahamut
Therefore, with Slow II and Paralyze II in effect, we would still retain the mana battery title for curing. This is also considering you're doing nothing else- just Haste, Temper and Cure 5, over and over and over. That shit is boring, you can count me out of it. -
08-22-2011, 04:02 AMZatiasYes they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaux
Quote:
Cure V should be handed out to RDM and SCH. It still wont replace WHM, it will make them comfortable substitutes when the WHM is incapacitated = good support. Aren't RDM and SCH supposed to be supportive? Cure 4 spam is counter-supportive in a way. It yanks enmity between players and over time you will find the mob taking an interest to eating your face. What's that? Now you have to waste MP on the RDM or SCH to heal them.
If you WHMs still think that Cure V is your only hold on the top of the hill then learn to play WHM. And RDM and SCH who think they will be healing only or a "ghetto whm" you wont be, especially if they fix enfeebling magic vs NMs.
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08-22-2011, 04:40 AMConcerned4FFxi
Im extremly upset too, whm should not get addle, and sch should not get raise3, or rdm raise 2 - whm only job is to cure, not half-ass dd like a rdm or nuke like a sch so thats why no cure 5 for sch or rdm. I know this isnt the black magic forum but quickly, breakga is basiclly a weaker version of stunaga, since break rarely processes vs. stun on nm. Its helpful but i'd rather stunaga, thank you.
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08-22-2011, 05:49 AMDaniel_HatcherWHM is the best job to cure, they are NOT the only ones that can cure however.Quote:
Originally Posted by Concerned4FFxi
RDM are the Enfeeblers but the spells are passed to EVERY job that's not logical if they go by your theory.
RDM are the Magical Enhancers (apparently) yet have no special spells that WHM can't do better again doesn't make sense.
As for Stunga there is absolutely NO reason to add it, if you need to stun multiple people it's because of the danger, one second break from Stun is NOT better than ~30 seconds from Breakga. -
08-22-2011, 07:09 AMHyrist
Really this argument isn't so much about whether or not RDM and SCH should get Cure V so much as it's an argument on whether or not they should be adequate 'Primary' Healers.
To which my answer to that is a flat no for many reasons.
Putting aside any debate as to the course of the job and the Melee aspects of RDM, the most important reason I do not see Sch nor Rdm as classes who should become solo healers is due to the number of other hybrid classes in the game as it stands.
Too much right now do players seek to standardize specific roles to one job. You see this in how people try to establish pecking orders such as who's the best DD, when each job has unique utilities and functions that allow them to be more variant than the bread and butter playstyle.
With capasities in jobs such as Blue Mage and Dancer to be able to heal, there is no true insentive to try to force more 'primary healers' in the game. Stated plainly, the duty can, and in my opinion, should be split. The ToAU concept of pushing healing and support aspects on as few slots as possible to maximize damage output was seen by me as a failure of concept, especially considering the job that fell into that one slot more often than not, was NOT the healing specialist.
As far as pecking order goes I believe SE has finally gotten it right. White Mage is the go-to specialist on healing, and the rest of the jobs have varying lesser degrees of healing they can provide to either assist a white mage in healing, or to split the duty among themselves while providing their primary roles to the party still.
The reason why Cure V has become a symbol on this matter is because it provides the big, one shot healing that serves as a major hamper against specific cure-possessing jobs, such as Scholar and Red Mage when they do not posses it. To which I say simply, instead of trying to rely on one or the other, invite them both, or some other hybrid variant.
Dancer, Blue Mage, Puppetmaster, Summoner, Paladin, Dragoon, Scholar and Red Mage all can provide some HP recovery to other members of the party on a regular basis, to varying degrees. Many combinations of the two of them are sufficient enough to handle the healing load for most general purposes. There's no reason why they cannot be made use of... and really, SHOULD be made use of more often. The curing shortage people are expriencing should encourage more variant groups, to accompany Offense Defense and Support, instead of searching for a single sole healer who shoulders both the burden and the blame more or less on their own.
White Mage has the incredible curing potential to handle this with minimal support, but that is because that is the job's primary function. Instead of trying to create more jobs to compete on this function, each of the other jobs listed above, as well as other jobs in general should get more tools to help assist those who do manage the cure, and to lighten up the burden on HP recovery. That way we encourage a more variant base instead of the constant shifting to whatever is the current 'best' so often.
As far as Cure V itself, it really depends on how far and away WHM stays ahead. I like this distance they have. If we're to catch up on being capable support jobs, I want to see that improvement thrown to our Enfeebles and Enhancing magic first. Cure V is not the quick fix Scholar or RDM needs. -
08-22-2011, 07:44 AMSpankWustlerYou don't understand what Red Mage and Scholar are actually capable of, the potency of their spells and abilities, or even what Scholar's basic abilities are called, and for that reason neither one should become a viable (but still second best) healer? Okay!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaux
Hyrist, I do agree with your idea of how things should ideally work.
I don't think that's the case right now, though. With adequate MP restoration, I'm confident I could out-pace two or even three hybrid jobs working together on my single White Mage. If things go to a dark and unhappy place, casting Cure V and Cure VI back to back restores the HP of two people within about four seconds, and gives them 300-400 HP stoneskin.
I'd need both a Bard and Red Mage to reach that level in Voidwatch, and that feels pretty much right. The "best" healer should work best for an activity with difficulty as it's main draw, similar to how the "best" tank works best.
I find it off that healing works similarly in Abyssea, though, given how laid back the activity is otherwise. If it weren't for procs being needed, you could melee everything in Abyssea to death with Red Mages, White Mages, and Bards and not experience too much difficulty. White Mage being so far above other healers for an otherwise lackadaisical activity doesn't feel right to me. -
08-22-2011, 08:33 AMLilia
when all in the party in red numbers, can a rdm cure5 save all?
Now i can save maybe 1-2 with cure 4 before next aoe kill the rest.
And try one time spam cure4... 100% selfkill.
rdm cure5 can never replace a whm with curaga.
when i read whm posts, i think the whm dont know what the have become after 75! -
08-22-2011, 01:03 PMPatrik
if SE is serious about making RDM a big time buffer/debuffer then I'm fine with no cure V... but if that new spell "Temper" is self-target only then I'm gonna be pissed... I'm bothered that they see us as the master of buffing while we are designed to only buff ourselves (/sch only works for so much)
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08-22-2011, 11:04 PMCrimson_Slasher
See thats what a lot of whms see us and sch as, competition, sch and blm see one another as nuking competition (to a degree mind you, and while sch cant nuke harder, with good strategem use and timing they can self skillchain and magicburst with nukes.) But as it stands, just like some rdm state, cure V will not replace whm, can it in some situations? Sure! All? Nope! A lot of people talk about spell economics in ffxi, so i will too.
Rdm/whm Vs Whm/rdm Vs Sch/rdm
Curing power:
-Rdm: in this setup at 90-95, rdm gets 4 native cures, and 3 aoe (curaga, curaga II, curaja) as well as 2 regens
-Sch: pocketing 4 full time and 3 regens
-Whm: cure 1-6 aga 1-4(5), cura 1-2 and 4 regens, as well as more potency gear AND Solace's stoneskin effect.
Summary: Even getting Cure V, whm has a whopping 4 more types of curing, solace's skin, and potency gear to overshadow rdm/sch cure power (whom at most if i read right can get 43% if they use every augmentable piece of gear for it)
Buffs:
-Rdm: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-2, enspells(self only) Bar-element/status spells(self only,) Stoneskin/blink/aquaveil/phalanx/gain-spells/spikes(all natively self only), refresh 1-2, phalanx II, Protect/shell 1-2(3 protect at 90 i believe?), and haste.
-Sch: Protect/shell 1-5, regen 1-3, tier 1 enspells, refresh, stoneskin, aquaveil, blink, spikes, bar-element and status, regain, hate up, hate down, Stormsurge storms, Klimaform.
-Whm Protect/shell 1-5, protectra/shellra 1-5, regen 1-4, auspice, stoneskin, blink, aquaveil, phalanx, refresh, Boost-spells, haste.
Summary: Okay, shorter list, but right off the bat, you notice, that aside from a few odds and ends like haste, theyre all single target and most natively not offered to other jobs without accession, while white mage can do the ones we can normally cast on others (sans haste) better and for less mp, when it comes to spell economics, buying in bulk for a discount beats saving 10% on each unit (60% savings after it all vs Apx 500% savings if you are casting on 6 people.)
Debuffs:
-Rdm: Sleep 1-2, poison 1-2, dia/bio 1-3, para 1-2, slow 1-2, blind 1-2, flash, break, gravity, bind, addle.
-Sch: Sleep 1-2, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, break, gravity, bind, and lets lump in drain/aspir.
-Whm: Sleep/repose, poison (maybe 2/rdm?) dia/bio 1-2, para, slow, blind, flash, gravity, bind.
Summary: rdm asnd sch are virtually in the same boat as whm.
Nukes:
-Rdm: Tier 1-4 Banish 1-2 Banishga 1-2.
-Sch: Tier 1-5 up to aero (Blizzard after 95 update)
-Whm: Banish 1-3, Banishga 2, holy (holy II after update) Stone-Aero II
Summary: The only field where whm loses out, and personally ive yet to gear MAB gear on my whm to try and see how high i can nuke /rdm or /sch, but ive landed 1.2k holy and if holy II is anything improved over that, its plenty for a good kill-shot.
Overall: Cure V will make rdm/sch sufficient healers in a single target situation, it will not retire whm, just add competition.
Personal note to the white mage croud: You know whats worse that rdm and sch getting cure V? a massive influx of new whitemages gunning for all your whm specific gear and spot in events. Just let that sink in a bit.