Suggestions to Improve/Rebalance Vanadiel's Divas

So you'd happily use daggers on high level content (Read not abyssea) instead of a GK?

K.

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Originally Posted by Alaik

So you'd happily use daggers on high level content (Read not abyssea) instead of a GK?

K.

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Ninjas use GKT a lot, I heard. Your idea is demolished by:
1) WS frequency is a large part of why SAM is good, which is mostly due to their STP traits because 450 delay sits in a TP/sec trough.
2) If we did get GKT skill, we still wouldn't have access to Yuki, Gekko, or Kasha. They're all Samurai Exclusive.
3) We have very limited STR gear selection for WS.

In short, yes. I'd rather use Dagger instead of using GKT to slowly spam crappy Jinpus.

Okay, so what about Great Axe? Raging Rush is WAR exclusive, Steel Cyclone is WSNM. Polearm? At least we could use Penta Thrust, but if we're talking about high level content it doesn't buy us much. Scythe and Great Sword? The good HNM WSs are DRK or PLD exclusive and we aren't on the WSNMs.

Our job receives a high level of dual wield and a lot of gear that specifically benefits Dagger usage. The good WSs from other weapon types are locked off from us. Even if we had an A- in everything, there would be no reason to use those weapons. Daggers aren't that bad for DPS, and Evisceration isn't that horrible of a WS against high level stuff either if you have a good build and can still cap dDEX.

One, it's hypothetical. And as a rule, if you have an A- in a melee skill as a melee job, you get all the WS associated with such. It's not a hard concept to grasp.

Secondly, TP trough? lol http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/File:Tpgain.jpg
Base TP gain for a 450 is about the same overtime taking only delay into account. Hasso's DA, haste and the sTP you'd get from SAM would be superior. Especially since any DNC who actually came DNC to events like Jailers, Kirin, etc at 75 would know hitting for 0 (Thus gaining 0 TP) was an issue, even if you somehow managed to get support, with stellar gear.

Capping dDEX? So did you misunderstand where I said not abyssea/meripo trash and said higher level endgame content? The stuff like jailers, kirin, kings, etc we had at 75 that SE said will be closer to 99's endgame than abyssea?

I thought I specified that. Also, I really don't know why you're bringing up multihits. There's a reason good DRKs used GS over scythe on higher end stuff. Spoilers: Look up pdif boost.

You don't get Hasso DA from sub, 450 delay is the lowest TP/sec until 600+ based on the graph you linked, it's possible to cap dDEX on non-trash mobs in an Evisceration build, and jobs with an A- skill don't necessarily get all the WSs (Paladin and Hexa Strike, for instance). Also, I listed every WS with a pDIF boost in the previous post and pointed out that they were job-specific.

Regardless, this is a meaningless conversation in an otherwise good thread, so I'm going to stop it.

Greetings dancers! Here is some feedback from the development team in regards to your comments about the job adjustments concepts. Enjoy :)

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Add new modes for dancers. Add dances that give sphere effects.

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Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.

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Make it so Waltzes don’t all share the same timer.

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We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.

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Reduce the recast timer on Waltz. (Especially higher tier Curing Waltz and Healing Waltz)

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Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.

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Make it possible to use Healing Waltz on people outside of your party.

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It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.

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Increase the effect of Animated Flourish.

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We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.

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Increase the accuracy for Desperate Flourish.

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We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.

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Make it so you can perform level 2-3 skill chains with Wild Flourish.

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Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.

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Make it so you can stack steps over level 5.

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This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.

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Lengthen the effect duration for steps.

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We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.

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Make it so you can generate two finishing moves even after you have reached level 5.

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It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.

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Make Chocobo Jig an AoE effect.

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Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.

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Make it so you can overwrite Spectral Jig.

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Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.

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Originally Posted by Camate

The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.

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Do you understand how the game works? 99% of the time one of steps will be more useful than the others, there's usually no point in doing anything but trying to cap the one that is currently needed.

TLDR: Nope.jpg

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.

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You should make all our current Sambas into Sphere effects so that we can provide them to party members that are fighting different monsters. While you're doing that, you should fix the Sphere effect code so that the person with the Sphere also receives its benefit.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We would need to completely remake the system as it was originally balanced to have a unified recast timer with limitations placed on the amount of TP consumed. If we removed that, the cure capabilities of the job would be greatly enhanced throwing the balance off between other healing magic. If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.

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We don't need individual timers for each Waltz. Split the Waltz timers odd/even into Waltzes I and Waltzes II. We're limited by the amount of TP we can gain and the amount of TP that we give to monsters while we do it. Dancer could be a careful balance of these two forces if we weren't stuck for 20 seconds after each Curing Waltz IV.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.
Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.

It would be necessary to look into not only Healing Waltz, but also extending Erase to people outside of your party. In the case that we decide to extend the effects of Erase to people outside of your party, we will make it possible for Healing Waltz, too.

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I assume that you answered the same question twice because it's often brought up by everyone that has ever had a passing association with the Dancer job. See the above response. You don't need to adjust the timers if you split them odd/even.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are looking into adjustments for this. We are considering making it so you can generate the same level of enmity as Provoke when consuming two finishing moves.

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I'm glad that you found something to say other than "no", but no one cares about volatile enmity (the kind that Provoke and Animated Flourish give).

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are exploring the direction of adding equipment that enhances the accuracy.

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Again, Desperate Flourish has highly situational uses and really I can't make myself care about it. I'm assuming that this is going to be tacked on to the +2 version of AF2 body.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Comparing this to samurai’s Konzen-ittai, the recast timer is shorter and it has multiple uses so the effect itself was set rather low for balance purposes.

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The difference between the two job abilities is that Wild Flourish is useless while Konzen-ittai is awesome. You either need to extend the duration of the Chainbound effect and let it work with Tier 2 skillchain elements, not extend the duration of the Chainbound effect and let it work with Tier 2/3 skillchain elements, or just give up on pretending to care whether this ability is relevant.

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Originally Posted by Camate

This would require us to look into the effects carefully. Since the effect of level 5 is currently very strong, we do not have any plans of increasing this at the moment.

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You should double the potency without increasing the number of levels. Box Step 5/5 is a joke compared to Dia II, let alone Angon, Acid Bolts, or anything that matters.

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Originally Posted by Camate

We are looking into the direction of making it so the duration gets longer at higher levels.

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Nice to hear, but then we'll run in to . . .

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Originally Posted by Camate

It can be thought that the fundamental problem here is that in order to maintain the effect of the step you need to continuously use the same step. First we will revamp the step effect duration and determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle, and then make a decision based on that.
The idea is to be able to fight by using a variety of steps and not using the same one over and over just to maintain its effect.

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If you increased Step duration and failed to make the suggested change here, we'd have to rotate between 3 steps instead of 2. Considering we only have two worthwhile steps (and I only have macro space for 2), I'd rather not see either of these changes happen. The minor benefit we'd gain on hard fights where we want to keep step potency capped would be offset by the reduced FMs and damage output.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.

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This is another change that I can't make myself care about, but it's silly to deny us AoE Jig when you have Bolter's Roll and Chocobo Mazurka. Chocobo Jig freezes us in place for a long enough time that it's equivalent to Mazurka or Roll, so I'm not sure how you can claim that it shouldn't be AoE.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Please understand that this is the same as magic and items and it is following the rule that in order to re-apply the effect you need to remove it first.

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We understand that Sneak doesn't overwrite itself, but why not change that? Apart from being annoying, it's unclear what purpose it really serves.

Why not just increase the duration of Spectral Jig?

I sub DNC from time to time on my MNK, and the rate at which Spectral Jig wears off is pretty infuriating.

Could you at least CONSIDER separating Healing and Curing Waltz if you won't implement something like the WaltzI/II suggestion from Byrth.

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Similarly for Healing Waltz, since it is possible to address a large variety of status ailments covered by na-related spells and Erase, the recast timer was set to be somewhat long.

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Except for the fact that what it removes is completely random. When you're covered with five different thing and paralyze is one of them, there's a good chance paralyze will wear off before you even get a chance to get rid of it, thus totally wasting your time during that entire period. Not to mention you have to choose between curing (which can get paralyzed, therefore goodbye healing waltz for the next 10 seconds) and healing yourself.

Byrth pretty much covered it all in his post.

The fact that you wrote 'Enjoy :)" at the beginning of the post just makes me think you have no clue how frustrating this update is...

By not considering any waltz timer split I feel like you forget that our TP caps at 300, while in abyssea WHM have a practically endless MP pool and can spam between Cure V and VI with added stoneskin effects. I appreciate DNC's cures are not intended to be the powerful but try healing something like Apademak on DNC, it's just not gonna happen due to having to already contend with front line debuffs. Even as duo and DNC main healing, if DNC got paralyzed and healing waltz doesn't go off you're now stuck with a huge recast for it to potentially be para'ed again. Something like waltz splits would mean if Healing waltz got para you could try curing waltz to try and see your HP through.

Has the dev team actually tested split timers in a fight to see how it does compared to other healing classes or do you just assume it will be more over powered?

In regards to 1 finishing move once steps are at Lvl 5 I don't see much reasoning behind this at all. You say we should alternate steps but surely that's down to each players own discression what steps they want to use. I don't want to alternate for the sake of keeping my finishing moves effective. Do other jobs have penalties for favouring a particular enfeeble...

Byrth basically said everything that needed to be said.

I can't believe SE thinks that Chocobo Jig has to have a cost to be AoE...
Is there going to be a a cost for Bolters/Mazurka/etc now too?

Gear with "Desperate Flourish effect" is going to be ignored. If you're going to buff it, make a direct buff.
Nobody is going to work for gear for a flourish that nobody uses.
Really need to make Flourishes in general better, considering there's only 1 per category worth using. Maybe 2 if you use Building.

Ugh... this just encourages the perception that the devs only know this game on paper, and not from actual player feedback or playtesting. In a group, dancer's healing abilities are shunned, particularly when up against something that does big damage and requires constant healing.

Level 5 step is "powerful" huh? A single spell from a redmage or even a blu outclasses something that takes a minimum of 30 seconds to get up to level 5, and lets not kid ourselves. Yes, you generally want to balance between two steps but just for the sake of "making it so you USE OTHER EFFECTS" is outlandish. I don't care if the steps stack with other effects - its just too big of a discrepancy between effort vs reward.

Also can we please reconsider the "triple attack" floruish III - abilities that solely enhance rudra's storm are abit of a waste, especially considering that nobody ever uses Striking anymore anyway. More *defensive* flourish III's would be better - such as climactic but it forces parries for each move used. That way there is less of a fuss about "bah offensive flourishes compete with just reversing for another weaponskill." Two weaponskills and a skillchain is almost always better than one slightly stonger one. And since monks also have the same evasion skill as well as access to perfect counter "just sub nin" is not an excuse to make this an unviable idea.

Also can we please have a rundown of what buffs and abilities we will actually get instead of just a rundown of which of our ideas are not viable? Might make for a more pleasant read.

Wow. I guess in addition to being a difficult job to play properly, Dancer is a difficult job to develop properly.

You have my sympathies, Byrth.

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Originally Posted by Purpleeyes

Except for the fact that what it removes is completely random. When you're covered with five different thing and paralyze is one of them, there's a good chance paralyze will wear off before you even get a chance to get rid of it, thus totally wasting your time during that entire period. Not to mention you have to choose between curing (which can get paralyzed, therefore goodbye healing waltz for the next 10 seconds) and healing yourself.

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This ^

I dont see how curing on DNC would be overpowered with Curing waltz I, II and healing waltz in waltzes I and curing waltz III,IV,V in waltzes II.

I dont see how you can even compere healing waltz with -na+erase combo. If you have paralyze on DNC you can end up not doing a single cure or healing waltz for a minute+ and just see how you recast is going up and down while nothing beside "xxx is paralyzed" will happen.

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Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.

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This seems like a cool idea, however, whatever effect is given would need to be relatively powerful to justify having a TP perpetuation cost.

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Since Curing Waltz was designed to be different from Cure in the sense that it has advantages with short execution time and it is hard to interrupt, but on the flip side is difficult to use in quick succession, we do not have any plans to reduce the recast time further. Instead we wish for dancers to focus on specific tactics taking into account the levels of Waltz and use the most appropriate one for the situation.

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The strongest waltzes have disproportionately long recast timers to the point where using waltz V is no more effective than using a lesser waltz more times in the same time period.

Also, situations can change int he blink of an eye. If you use a high waltz and the situation gets worse, dancer cannot adapt to the situation. This recast problem prevents Dancer from being the support class it seems like it was built to be. Yes, they can use waltzes where white mages might h ave difficulty casting, but that alone doesn't justify this.

To put it simply: If Waltz V is not better than just using waltz III a few times, then there is no point in it existing. A higher tier waltz needs to have at least a slight edge over the previous tiers. This is true for waltz I II and III, but stops being true beyond that.

I've been reading through the JPN forums and it seems they have similar responses. It really is like the devs have never played this game.

Quite meh overall, though the thing about the recast timers is still a big issue.

At the very least, erase needs to be separated from cures. I can't count the number of times I've erased some kind of effect off someone to have them die afterwards because my timer wasn't back up. (should note this is when low manning/duoing content without any type of mage job present)

In regards to step levels.. why cant you let us have more than 5 but limit the amount of steps that can be consumed by a certain ability at a given time? ex. Reverse flourish uses "up to" 5 steps etc. We'd then still be limited by the recast timers of abilities that consume steps.

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determine how many times you can use a step in a single battle

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Please no. For myself personally (and probably lots of other DNCs) apart from trying to stack the most necessary step to level 5, the whole point of steps is to use them frequently if for nothing else, to build up TP. Limiting steps to a certain number of uses feels like it would essentially nerf the job. It would be like saying Samurai can only use meditate X number of times during a fight.


Also- resist amnesia would be nice, I mean jesus.... COR got it? But not DNC?

Honestly if you're in a situation that somehow requires Curing Waltz V, you should have a mage with you. Or are we supposed to rely on Fan Dance and Utsusemi to keep us alive until we cure ourselves again?

It's official-

DNC is dead. There's no saving it now.

pretty much

I regret leveling it thinking it would've been a decent main healer job.

Boy, how naive I was to think that.

How wrong you were! They're too busy trying to make DNC into a DD.

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Originally Posted by Purpleeyes

How wrong you were! They're too busy trying to make DNC into a DD.

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lolDD-DNC.

SO uhm, are we actually going to make productive suggestions to better further the direction we'd like to see dnc developed or...?

I have to say, one thing that also needs to be addressed is the strength of samba effects. As of right now there's almost no reason to use anything but 5/5 haste samba. Drain samba III is so pitifully weak that the only way to make any sort of productive use of it is if you need healing when you have saber dance up and are soloing. Aspir samba i have *never* used in any situation. Almost anybody would rather attack faster than get 3 mp back a swing.

Man I don't think ive ever seen that many 'no's in one post before.

Bravo, SE.

as far as chocobo jig goes, bard gets aoe song at no cost so whats the diff?

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Originally Posted by Nala

as far as chocobo jig goes, bard gets aoe song at no cost so whats the diff?

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Mazurka is interruptable.

Yeah that's a dumb reason, but I'm pretty sure I've seen SE use that excuse somewhere before (or not, IDK i'm tired).

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since there is no cost for Chocobo Jig the effect is set to be only for the dancer.
In the event that we were to extend the effect to party members, there would be some room to explore this if there were TP consumption or some other trade-off.

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There's no cost for Chocobo Mazurka either, but that stretches to party members. Why does the dev team continue over-and-over to decide that one ability is too overpowered if given to a certain job but absolutely fine if given to another.
JA dispel? It's too overpowered for thief to have it on a separate timer from steal or to be less than 5 minute recast. But it's fine for corsair to have it on 2 charges with 1 minute recast.
AoE movment ability? That's fine for bard, but not4u dnc, it's overpowered.
Subtle Blow for theives? Dont be silly, as you have en-TH, it'd be too overpowered. But it's cool to give it to ranger who can also raise the level of TH.


DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. I men really, does the dev team actually put any thought into players comments whatsoever? Or do they just immidiately shoot down anything that they hadn't already thought of? It really is absoloutely rediculous.

It's been said before, but why not say it again...so many no's to dnc updates is crap...why not split timers? if we're supposed to "shine in the solo spotlight" why shouldn't we be able to keep ourselves healed decently? also, the step effects are mediocre at best...nothing to write home about, feather step is wonderful in theory, but when there's atmas that increase crit rate to max effortlessly, what do we need an additional few % on top of that? We're gettin' screwed here methinks....

and PS, I am in shock that we're not allowed to aoe our movement speed thing, like bards and cors can nor did they mention anything about lengthening spectral jigs absolutely abysmal duration...what exactly ARE we going to be getting over the next few levels? Cuz at this point, all it seems like that we're gettin' is no's over and over. :(

Wow I've seen a lot of people claim about getting totally screwed, PLD, THF, even BLU. But dnc really is taking the largest beating of all. Are thew new devs intent to make it PUP the 2nd or something?

Come on Camate. You have to know this can't be right. Those are responses you were told to pass along, right? Try reasoning with the team.

It doesn't take a career dnc to see how awful SE is beginning to treat it.

I get back from sooling HNMs and apparently Dnc needs to be fixed?

I'm sorry but the only issue I have with dancer is the fact that my JAs get stalled out when I cast utsu, and have to wait 1-2 seconds after casting to get back to JA spam.

Other than that I have never had an issue with keeping up with any of the other jobs. Sure I don't heal as good as a white mage. You know why?

White mage is a *** healing class

*** We're not SUPPOSED to be main healers, has the giant pile of melee and DD JSE gear SE has been piling on us not given you the clue yet? Dancer is supposed to be a support job that also dishes out heavy damage. No other job in the game can debuff as strongly as dancer while also handing out some of the highest DPS, along with heavy duty weaponskills AND a high survivability for when we get hate.

I'm sorry but you people sound like Reddit's first world problems threads. Whaaaa, I can't heal as good as a White Mage, tank as good as Ninja, nor DD as good as a warrior.

But I'm going to ignore the fact I'm second best at all of these things combined, making me one of the most diverse and well rounded jobs in the game alongside blue mage and red mage, and whine about not being the best at everything.

We are a broken *** job that can kill things that takes 2-3 people in other jobs to kill. [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] respect the fact there are more important things that need fixing over making dancer any more powerful than it is.

You know why our abilities are weaker than magic? Our abilities are either free or damn near free, and compared to their cost are pretty *** powerful. It only takes 30 tp to cap a single daze, and we get 100 tp back from that.

That's right, your capped daze costs negative 70 tp to use! And it can't be interrupted. And it casts instantly. And it lasts forever provided maintenance. And it has a 15 second recast. And you have the gal to request a buff?!

Chocobo jig is free and gives move speed +25%, I'm sorry but asking for it to be AoE is greedy. That would make it on par with mazurka which takes a long ass time to cast and holds the whole party down while casting, along with the fact it wears every time you zone. So unless you want the animation of chocobo jig extended to be twice as long and get cancelled if you try moving, and cost 40~70K to learn, give it a rest.

To Camate:

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Originally Posted by Camate

If we were to split the Waltz timers, we would have to raise the TP consumption as a trade-off.

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This sounds reasonable, though personally I myself feel the more effective way to go about it would be to introduce some more -waltz recast gear for us dancers to work for, or let us merit waltz recast- in the future. Alternatively a tier 3 flourish that lowered the recast of our next waltz would be great. Each consumed finish = more seconds taken off the recast.

To everyone else: Stop whining, seriously. Seeing people playing one of the strongest jobs in the game whine about wanting more and more and more makes us sound whiny and spoiled. Remember the day square gave us our merits? Remember the day Square gave us dual wield?

Every single Update to dancer, SE has managed to slowly make us more and more powerful, slowly overtaking every other job in the game.

4/5 of our AF1 are usable, solid pieces. Our af2 is possibly the best set in the game. Our af3 is mind blowingly incredible. We're one of the few jobs that can fulltime 5/5 af3+2 and not be gimp for playing on the set bonus (though 4/5 with dusk gloves is still better)

We have an ability that gives us a 20~% double attack.

We have a -20~80% pdt ability.

And after all that, what does SE give us after much begging? DUAL WIELD, and not just tier 1 dual wield like blu, but at the time we got DUAL WIELD IV, we were on pare with ninja, the job that was known for dual wield!

And then next what does square give us? They take our already potent job ability, climactic flourish, and buff the *** out of it so hard that it makes us one of the high end damage dealers, on par with the others!

And yet you people STILL won't stop begging and pleading for more buffs. How about you all be grateful for all the buffs dancer has received with each update, and the fact we have not been gimped once since. You all take your titles of Dazzling Dance Divas to the next level, and I am ashamed of every one of you.

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Every single Update to dancer, SE has managed to slowly make us more and more powerful, slowly overtaking every other job in the game.

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This is the problem. They're making us more powerful... and that's all they're doing. We used to be a support job and that has pretty much vanished. Everything they've given us has been for DD. All we do now is solo really good, but what's the point of that when I can't proc anything inside abyssea, and there isn't anything worthwhile to solo outside that requires any skill.

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We have an ability that gives us a 20~% double attack.

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At the cost of healing ourselves. But hey if Drain Samba is all you need then why not. Unless they're undead, or have Ice Spikes.

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We have a -20~80% pdt ability.

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You gain something, you lose something. I hate not having Haste Samba up. Really useful for AE burns, though.

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Chocobo jig is free and gives move speed +25%, I'm sorry but asking for it to be AoE is greedy. That would make it on par with mazurka which takes a long ass time to cast and holds the whole party down while casting, along with the fact it wears every time you zone. So unless you want the animation of chocobo jig extended to be twice as long and get cancelled if you try moving, and cost 40~70K to learn, give it a rest.

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Holds the whole party down, but then they make up that lost time in seconds. You make it sound like it would be faster if they didn't give you Mazurka.
When they said cost they probably meant it literally, in that BRDs and CORs buy their way to give it to the party.
Also, giving AoE speed enhancement... greedy? Good going there buddy.

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And then next what does square give us? They take our already potent job ability, climactic flourish, and buff the fuck out of it so hard that it makes us one of the high end damage dealers, on par with the others!

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Why use Climactic Flourish when I already critical hit most of the time anyway? Considering the fact that mostly everything is done in Abyssea, Climactic Flourish was rubbish before the update. Not to mention that the only time it's really good is when used with Rudra's Storm.

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You know why our abilities are weaker than magic? Our abilities are either free or damn near free, and compared to their cost are pretty fucking powerful. It only takes 30 tp to cap a single daze, and we get 100 tp back from that.

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Except it takes a relatively long time to get to that point. Not to mention the occasional whiff. I'll just bring a RDM and have a near-instant 15% defense down. Even a WHM will give 10% defense down that won't take nearly a minute to do.
And regarding our abilities being free/near-free, mages have so much refresh potential that shouldn't even be an argument.

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I'm sorry but you people sound like Reddit's first world problems threads. Whaaaa, I can't heal as good as a White Mage, tank as good as Ninja, nor DD as good as a warrior.

But I'm going to ignore the fact I'm second best at all of these things combined, making me one of the most diverse and well rounded jobs in the game alongside blue mage and red mage, and whine about not being the best at everything.

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Second best? Since there's a bit of emphasis on this I'm going to assume you're not exaggerating. The way Waltzes are designed we won't be better at healing than most mages, but I won't argue the fact that one wasn't really needed on a lot of mobs if your DNC was good when the cap was 75.
DD? There's a lot of jobs that will deal more damage then we ever can, but I won't deny we have become pretty strong.
Tank? Depends. Solo we are way up there obviously. Other than that why bring a DNC tank when you you can have a NIN with Migawari, or a MNK with unlimited HP. I haven't got to tank Voidwatch yet, but I'd imagine they would rip a DNC to pieces.

Anyways, I don't mind the way things are. I agree that some -recast would also be a great addition.
However, I will always stick to my belief that Healing Waltz and Curing Waltz should not share the same recast in any way or form.

I really don't understand what is wrong with you people. I'm glad SE finally told you what was up, maybe you guys will take it down a notch now. DNC is great and has been getting nothing but better all the time. I've been DNC since WotG release and i never fully understood the whole "Main Healer only" desire for the job, DNC needs to be more like Lillisette enough said.

As for the DNC DD angle no one is saying it has to be a DD only, but DNC runs on 2 things; TP(JAs) and being engaged to buff(sambas), meaning the DNC has to melee to be effective. So SE made major changes to DNC not to "turn" it into a DD but made it so letting the DNC TP feed the mob was worth it. If the DNC was doing next to no dmg no one would let it melee ever and it could not function, healing or otherwise.

As for the notes provided it's easy to see some good stuff in there;

- Longer duration on Sambas
This is great as our number of JAs increases this gives us a little breathing room in both time and TP. Making it based on level also widens the gap between DNC main and /DNC sambas, a VERY good thing.

- Longer duration on steps
same as with sambas this gives us breathing room, seems like they want to make it easier for us to keep multiple different steps going at once. I've always wanted this, being able to lower the mobs eva/crit eva/def in a mainly melee party quickly and effectively would be very good boost. Maybe something like lowering the max level of effect to 3 but doubling/tripling the effect of each step or increasing the first and 2nd steps effect further then it is currently.

- New Ability(s) that give enhancing to other party members while slowly consuming TP.
Very interesting, because it constantly consumes precious TP i could see the effect being fairly strong. Having a DNC who could use Haste samba and a regain type aura at the same time would be a great benefit to a group. Because this doesn't seem useful when soloing or when there is not enough party members in range to warrant the TP consumed i hope it's reasonably easy to turn off and on when need be.

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Originally Posted by Camate

Since sphere effects are extremely strong and completely negate the opposite enfeebling effect, we won’t be implementing the sphere effect itself. However, we are planning to add something that gives your party members some kind of effect while continuing to consume your TP. As we are not at the stage where can give info on specific effects, we would love to hear your ideas.

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Quick question, are you saying along the lines of Lillisette's Thorned Stance/Sensual Dance or along the lines of the Sphere effect from say Mextli Harness? (Sorry if I have got the wrong end of the stick about the Sphere business).

I like the idea of a type of Sphere and for things other then just giving Regain to party members.

Maybe instead of limiting to say one Sphere effect, could make a Stance category but instead of learning by leveling, we could do something like a solo only quest that requires defeating an NM (just a thought on something else to do), this means we could have a Regain effect, a form of PDT, a form of MDT, a critical hit, attack bonus, etc, etc. Not saying to do all but gives it a bit of supportive variety. Of course have it as a single casting timer so we can't just suddenly switch from say PDT to MDT and back again because a NM is about to cast Meteor/Comet or something like that.

As for the recast, shame really, only wanted Healing Waltz to be seperate. Don't care about the rest.

Would be extremely nice if you bring in more -Waltz Recast gear in to play or let us merit it like COR can with Phantom Roll/Quick Draw.

I don't think anyone is arguing that DNC is a weak solo job. They're arguing that the level 75 party niche good Dancers enjoyed has disappeared. Here are three reasons why:

1) Waltzes are no weaker than they've ever been, but they're no more powerful than they were at 75. The setting where we used to excel at 75 (6-man parties killing things where we do the heavy healing with Waltz III) simply don't exist anymore, and our largest benefit in such a party is killed by number 2. Furthermore, it's frustrating to be unable to heal when we have TP and the increase in our healing power from splitting Waltz timers wouldn't be so substantial that SE is remotely justified in their concerns.

2) Haste Samba is getting more worthless all the time with a Bard in the party. 25% Haste from gear, 43.3% Haste from magic (BRD/WHM), and 10% from Hasso or 33% Dual Wield (which even THF can get) put you essentially at the delay cap. Combine that with the fact that you have to be engaged to the same monster, and you wonder why you brought the Dancer at all.

3) With Marches, it's not worth using Steps due to JA Delay. Because it's not worth using Steps, it's not worth using Flourishes. Because it's not worth using Flourishes, it's not worth self-skillchaining. Because of all of these things, if you have Marches you're actually going to do the best damage just riding Saber Dance/Haste Samba and pretending you're a monk with daggers.

It boils down to: If you have another support job in the party (Bard), which you should bring to any melee burn or event with a full party, Dancer is the closest approximation of worthless. Couple this with more sources of Refresh (a BRD+RDM combo has 17MP/tick from 2x Ballads + Refresh II with AF3+2 and an easy Ballad Instrument, which they can always keep on thanks to Tenuto, versus 6MP/tick at 75 with anything short of a G-horn) and our supporting niche has evaporated. We spam a Cure IV Waltz at a speed that a RDM and BRD backline can keep up with, let alone something like WHM/RDM with AF3+2 pants and capped cure potency/cast time.

In fairness, the niche at 75 enjoyed by good dancers disappeared with subbable Convert. Even if we were currently viable healers, why bring a viable healer that has to feed tp, stand in AoE range, and generate huge amounts of enmity when you can bring a viable healer that does none of these things?

I personally could care less about an AoE chocobo jig, but I think the "draw back" from COR and BRD is that it uses one of thei buff slots. If that was one of the selling point updates to DNC in the next update over something else I'd be very upset.

I love the idea for a "Perfect Parry" type of ability, I think it suits us as solo artists. They should make it a 1:00 JA like perfect counter, seperate from flourishes.

I currently have three ideas for DNC:
1)A TP drain samba. The TP drained is based on the amount of TP given to the mob by the player's hit. I am not up to date with the current AGI based mob TP gain system, so I'll use the old system to explain it: Using an Ukon as an example, with 482 delay it gives 16 TP to the monster, before subtle blow. Let's say the TP samba absorbs 20% of the TP you give the monster, then the WAR would absorb 3.2 TP, only giving the monster 12.8 TP. This would be calculated after subtle blow, so if the WAR had 50% subtle blow the he or she would absorb 1.6 TP and give 6.4. The percentages could be different, maybe it could take anywhere from 5-30% TP per hit randomly, or maybe it could take 40%, but the war only gains 15% back. I don't know where balance would fall in this sort of ability, that is up to the devs.

2) a JT that allows the DNC to take less damage from AoE attacks that the DNC is not the central target of (at least magical types, though physical would be nice too.) When I'm the tank there is no problem, but when one of my friends is tanking I can't be on the front line supporting him if I am taking more damage than he is. I feel like the dragoon's wyvern in fights that are AoE intensive, except if I were to stay close I would waste the whm's MP. I'm talking a big damage reduction that would be enhanced as you level up in increments, ultimately adding up to somewhere around 70-75%. If the monsters attack does more damage than the DNC has HP, then this JT is ignored. Even if this means *cringe* before atmas/enhancements. Maybe this JT could only work when you are not in front of the mob.

3)This idea isn't that great, but I guess it is different. Allow us to use steps on ourselves and party members for the opposite effect (quickstep increases evasion, box step increases defense, etc.) If I'm fighting with another DNC or support job DNC party member, chances are any steps of value are going be capped fast. This would also allow DNC to stay away from mobs we quite frankly can't get close to. This however completely goes against the idea of DNC being a front line healing job.

This was a useless speech. We didn't learn anything.

In regards to Chocobo Jig, I want the developers to remember that Mazurka is a free spell, with a cast time that isn't terribly long. Bolter's Roll (hopefully that's the right one) Is also free and instant. Sure, these two take over song and die slots respectively, but they're able to be instantly overwritten by other songs/rolls. Rendering that cost useless.

So what's wrong with AoE Chocobo Jig again?

If you're serious about a TP-draining area-of effect style buff, please consider making a variety of effects that DNC can bestow this way.

Potential Enhancements to Consider
1.) Regain
2.) Critical Hit Rate + Critical Attack Bonus
3.) Double Attack Rate + Triple Attack Rate
4.) Other? Something defensive? Probably won't get used.

Originally, I suggested:
Backup Dance (Dancer level 95, Recast 5 minutes, duration 5 minutes or until the DNC has 0 TP). Sacrifices TP to regenerate surrounding Party members' TP. ---Consumes 100 TP to give the dancer a "Sphere" effect that drains the DNC's TP by 2/tic to give party members a 2TP/tic regain effect as long as they are nearby.

Instead, make this a new category of dance, like Sambas, and increase DNC's ability to support the party similar to the manner in which BRD+COR are able to enhance the party. Consider, however, that this will constantly drain the DNC's TP so the effect should be fairly potent to make up for it. And yes, they should stack with sambas.

Category: Backup Dances

1.) Rousing Cheer (DNC Level 92)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive the effect of Regain. Drains 2/TP tic from the DNC, and part members regenerate 2TP/Tic. The cost of this ability is set less than the others because the DNC will see no benefit from this ability.

2.) Tenacious Cheer (DNC Level 95)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to critical hit rate and critical attack bonus (including the DNC). Drains 3 TP/tic. This should be at least 5% each, but I think 10% is more fair for the cost. Still significantly weaker than Blood Rage, which is intentional.

3.) Frenzied Cheer (DNC Level 99)

Grants the effect of "Cheer." Party members in a 10' radius receive a boost to their double and triple attack rates. Drains 4-5/tic. 10% double attack and 5% triple attack.


Balance the ability by making it wear off if TP reaches 0 and give it a somewhat long recast (3-5 minutes?). You can even make it not have any effect when solo if that's a balancing issue you're worried about.