Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
Let us make it more clear!Quote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies
MORE CLEARQuote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies
Let's go in to a little bit more depthQuote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies
http://www.wordreference.com/thesaurus/sit%20back "ignore, relax, keep one's hands off, neglect, side-line, not care, do nothing, hibernate, idle, lie dormant, go still, not budge, not stir, rest, sit out, vegetate, wait and see, watch and wait, wait, apathy, lay back, uncaring, not bother
. _ .
New SMN JA "Possession" Empowering the "Melee SMN"
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07-23-2011, 08:17 AMLeonlionheart
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07-23-2011, 08:18 AMKorpgYou mean the quote stating what Square Enix is thinking about what a summoner does?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
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07-23-2011, 08:19 AMKorpgUnderlined: Best definition ever!Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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07-23-2011, 08:34 AMDallas
LOL, I told you exactly what you would do and you did it anyway. Dance for me, minions!
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07-23-2011, 08:52 AMRazushuYou still got that bullet proof sense of selfworth, eh? I almost feel bad mocking you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
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07-23-2011, 08:54 AMDallas
You saw it, Raz. I said that we would get the quote with selective highlighting AGAIN, and we got exactly that. You know what is by your side? Your hands. Your avatar is that fuzzy dot off in the horizon.
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07-23-2011, 09:04 AMRazushuDallas if you were able to read a complete sentence you would seeQuote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
A mystic who can conjure avatars tofight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
that even if melee was implied, it's stated that backline is SMN's position. -
07-23-2011, 09:07 AMLeonlionheartguys these sentences say that you will go post what i want you to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dallas
Dallas has been turned to defense mode.
Guys if we attack enough we can bring him down!
Edit: I be feed'n a troll. But it brings me delight, like feeding the birds on a sunday afternoon~ -
07-23-2011, 09:17 AMKorpg
Signatures are there for feeding trolls.
Like mine. -
07-23-2011, 09:18 AMLeonlionheart
looks like it was done by kingfury, his art is usually pretty great.
I do like doing it in the rear though -
07-23-2011, 09:20 AMKorpgYeah, I specifically asked him to do a signature for me, he was very kind into doing oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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07-23-2011, 09:23 AMLeonlionheartHe's a nice guy, though I don't always agree with his ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
Maybe I should ask for one with Dallas's head under my ukon? -
07-23-2011, 09:31 AMkingfury------------Quote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight by their sides, then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies.
Imagine if it read like this:
:DQuote:
Mystics who conjure avatars to fight either by their sides or from within, where if alongside the SMN can then sit back and enjoy the show while paying close attention to their MP as their minions deliver devastating blows to adversaries and provide aid to allies; or from within so the SMN can switch gears while merged with their Avatar and address the ongoing show in person while still delivering devastating blows and spells coupled with aiding allies and managing their MP reserves.
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07-23-2011, 09:35 AMKorpgMods would probably delete it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
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07-23-2011, 09:39 AMkingfury----------Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Thanks for the compliment LLH /bow lol
Umm... Uh... due to the forum guidelines and the square enix yadda', yadda', blah, blah, blah, yack'adee-shmack'adee, unit code: #463 on page FF11 of the Hitchhiker's guide to the Universe... I'm not sure if I could fulfill that signature request... But...
Take out Dallas' head, and I think I could swing it lol -
07-23-2011, 09:44 AMLeonlionheartxD lol that would be really cool :O I'm hume, sporting Zelus Tiara and 4/5 AF3+2, um the hair is 4A i believe, the reddish longish one. The rest is up to you sir! I'm sure you'll do a great job, if you decide to do it after all xDQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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07-23-2011, 09:46 AMRazushuMake me one and I promise I'll follow you around and {Like!} all your posts.XDQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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07-23-2011, 09:47 AMLeonlionheart
Well don't over burden him!
Though he is a really talented guy, I can see why his sig's would be high in demand. -
07-23-2011, 09:50 AMkingfury
Lucky I have all that gear so no need for you to post links ^^
I'll see what comes to mind :) / -
07-23-2011, 09:52 AMRazushuI was joking, I wouldn't actually expect him to do one for me lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
But you're right he does do great work. -
07-23-2011, 09:55 AMLeonlionheartThinking about it in terms of business, if everyone sported one of his sig's, it would give his posts publicity!Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
Then SE would be like "Woah this guy has the playerbase behind him, we should look at his posts seriously!" -
07-23-2011, 09:55 AMkingfury------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Razushu
^^; lol No Mandatory thread following would be necessary Raz. Just post a description and some image links of your character and set the image oven to 350º and wait to see what emerges! :) -
07-23-2011, 09:59 AMkingfury--------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Well, I wouldn't go that far lol, but at least there would be lots of colorful Sigs dancing around the forum ^^ -
07-23-2011, 10:24 AMRazushuSweet, thanks I'll take some screenshots when I log in and post them. Do you need anything in particular in relation to the pics?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
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07-23-2011, 10:51 AMkingfury
Character face type, and the gear you'd like to see on your character helps.
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07-23-2011, 01:59 PMkingfury-----------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Panthera
Added to the OP :)
•Possible Avatar Possession characteristics -
07-23-2011, 03:22 PMAlhanelem(Yes I know it's way back)Quote:
Originally Posted by Korpg
I'm offended by your signature. "Real Summoners" play the job however they dang well please. Real Summoners also don't all wear wind staves and only use garuda.
Real Summoners are those who know how to utilize every square inch of what their job can do (even though no matter what they do, they still don't get respected for anything other than niche purposes or anything that is made beatable by Perfect Defense).
Stop kidding yourself into thinking because a couple of people were involved in a 2000 post thread about meleeing on SMN, that they don't know how to do anything else with the job.
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Anyway, The OP idea is somewhat interesting in theory, but people are too set in their minds to realize that things can be adjusted and tweaked. Things like "Avatars are all BLMs" in particular- They could change the avatar's base jobs in accordance with their style (Mostly going by appearance, Ifrit would be a WAR, garuda a THF, etc)
It would certainly fun to "be" the avatar, sort of like in Final Fantasy XIII. But it would be to radical of a departure from the job's design as a pet job. -
07-23-2011, 03:28 PMLeonlionheartWell, if you're using a blood bact rage... why wouldn't you use the one that deals the most damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
Melee is not utilizing every square inch of SMN, its effectively hurting the party, rather than staying back.
Just because there is a picture of garuda in his sig, doesn't mean that's the only avatar he uses lol -
07-23-2011, 03:43 PMKarbuncle
Garuda was always the most consistently powerful, But I've seen ifrit and Ramuh peak higher numbers. Leviathan/Titan are good for consistent numbers with little variances.
I'm not missing your point though! -
07-23-2011, 04:05 PMTagrineth
Yeah, good idea, let's empower SMN Melee.
While we're at it, give my WAR some White Magic. I want my WAR to be the main healer!
And I'd love for my Bard to be able to cast Black Magic. It's so boring just standing around singing songs! I should be able to nuke for at least 2000 damage in Abyssea, since bard can't really do damage any other way.
Oh and please please give my Paladin the ability to Charm, that would let me tank while my pet DDs! How cool would that be?
Oh oh and my BLM needs a few Defense Bonus traits. I mean I can gain so much hate, I should be able to tank too! -
07-23-2011, 04:33 PMAlhanelemIt's not hurting anybody. And you're taking my statement completely out of context. I didn't say "melee" or <insert role here>. And Beaing up front does not damage the party if they still get their buffs and you don't die. Which you don't if you are aware of your environment and what you're fighting. (I knew you'd troll me to start this up again- but I"m not going to take it any further than this, so get your entertainment somewhere else. You totally missed the point of the statement which had nothing specifically to do with melee at all.)Quote:
Melee is not utilizing every square inch of SMN, its effectively hurting the party, rather than staying back.
Real Summoners know how to do anything that the job is capable of doing, and know when to use what. That's what I'm saying. Real Summoners also play solo as well as parties and Real Summoners understand both the job's flexibilities and strengths as well as its limitations.
Of course, that's just what I think. Neither I nor Korpg are in any position to declare for the community what a "Real Summoner" really is. I, you, and everyone else should judge this for themselves.
Spoken by one who most likely treats SMN as a gimp WHM with no other capabilities. Your slippery slope and straw man arguments have no weight at all in logic. Note the description of the summon spells: "Summons <avatar to FIGHT BY YOUR SIDE." At the very least, the avatar should be fighting. and I couldnt think of a more creative idea for summoner than letting the summoner himself be imbued with a particular avatar's powers. Command carbuncle and be a better healer, command diabolos and command dark magic, command ifrit or garuda and be a fighter, etc.Quote:
While we're at it, give my WAR some White Magic. I want my WAR to be the main healer!
Seriously, there's more to this guy's suggestion than just melee, and like all effects, it would only be a temporary status change.
This thread and others like it exist because summoner has a reputaiton for power in the FF universe, and for most intents and purposes, summoner's -general- power is sorely lacking, not to say that there isn't anything it does well or is recognized for, but no job should be so shallow in strength or purpose. -
07-23-2011, 05:21 PMLeonlionheart
Damnit SMN melee IS HURTING YOUR PARTY.
TP feed is a serious issue when you're fighting NMs that might actually kill you. Sobek does NOT count.
Plus when a SMN gets hurt it's just more stress on the WHM's MP pool and recast timers.
In exp, or on Sobek, or other completely weak NMs have a blast. No one cares if you go hit Sirrush, literally no one. Unless your useless TP feed is preventing Red from being able to proc. -
07-23-2011, 05:52 PMkingfury--------------Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
I agreed with your breakdown in the "Watch paint dry" thread when you said that weak melee doesn't really do much for the fight LLH, but this JA would elevate a SMN's melee and DoT to that of Moderate to High depending on how things could be coded and designed. If a SMN could use new powerful weapon skills at an increased rate that was either on par with or slightly stronger than their current BP rage numbers, and they could take hits due to them being paired with their Avatars, they would certainly gain their place up front with the other DDs.
They wouldn't just be an "Auto-attacking melee mage" at that point, they would be a true-to-life DD, capable of sustaining themselves and others while doing so to boot. They would do so all the while staying true to their job function as a SMN, just up front with the rest of the DDs.
Remember, they would technically "be the Avatar" so your fears of a "too weak mage" swinging a staff for low numbers wouldn't be directed at a SMN that is using this JA. The specific melee damage numbers would see proportionate increase based on the two entities' attacks being merged, not to mention the possible additional elemental effect damage per swing on top of that. Now if a BLM were up front whacking the monster and trying to nuke, that's where your frustrations would be directed! :) (no offense to the melee BLMs out there... I'm sure there's some somewhere) -
07-23-2011, 06:27 PMMalamasalaYou know you are wrong, I hope. I have both SMN and DNC leveled. My DNC just hundred fists with weak dagger pokes, none of them stronger than my staff pokes. If melee SMN is bad, then melee DNC is the worst thing you could ever find. The comes melee NIN and melee THF, since they also have low damage single handed weapons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonlionheart
Fact is, people don't worry about DNC, NIN, THFs feeding TP. So worrying about SMN is just something you'd do because you have no idea how to play the game and you just make up theories that are incorrect and make you look like a fool. Only reason 50 people aren't correcting you, is because it is so common to have bad knowledge of the game and think just as wrong as you.
PS. My SMN tends to have more HP than a taru DRG... so I guess taru shouldn't be melee jobs period, if you worry someone will die from AOE damage. (Except MNKs, I'm sure taru MNKs have a few HP) -
07-23-2011, 08:24 PMLeonlionheartPeople don't worry about DNC or NIN feeding TP because of native Subtle Blow trait, and THF DNC and NIN get INSANE amounts in gear. The most Subtle Blow SMN can get is 12 iirc, and that's sacrificing some vital attack/accuracy slots, which SMN is desperate for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malamasala
In terms to this thread, it's all about letting SMN melee, which if SMN could actually manage to pull of a decent hit rate, and decent pDIF ratings, along with the other DD stats (DA TA Crits etc) then maybe SMN melee would have a place.
However as it stands now, it's not worth it at all.
Edit: As for Subtle Blow, BLU actually makes a point of gearing for it in certain cases, especially if you melee as BLU/RDM. It's a big deal, and you would know this if you actually played at a high level (Azdaja, Pantokrator, Raja, Rani, Apademak, etc.). I, along with my Cure, PDT, Physical Potency, Charged Whisker, and DD sets, have a Subtle Blow set on BLU to alleviate the stress on the tank, the healer, and most of all the other DDs around me. Causing a mob to use an AoE that results in dead DD = less overall DPS for the party. SMN is about hateless, MP-Sponge-less, and spike damage, while being able to give support. -
07-23-2011, 08:41 PMRazushuTaru M 6BQuote:
Originally Posted by kingfury
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...723121614a.jpg
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...723121624a.jpg
http://i1186.photobucket.com/albums/...723121633a.jpg
Gear is just Caller's set and a Fay Crozier. -
07-23-2011, 08:45 PMTagrinethSlippery slope and strawman? No, I was just straight up making fun of the idea. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alhanelem
People have this strange fantasy of taking X job they think they should like but don't because it doesn't fit their playstyle,
and wanting it to play like Y job that they for some fucking reason don't want to actually GO CHANGE JOBS and play INSTEAD.
Show me FF precedent for a Summoner doing anything remotely along the lines of physical damage and maybe I'll stop thinking you're a complete failure for pushing this agenda. Seriously. Go change jobs if you want to melee. SMN isn't built for it. NOTHING you can currently do will change that fact. Even the Empyrean staff is a joke. Wishing SE would buff SMN melee is like wishing SE would buff SCH or BLM melee. Or WAR nuking. Or MNK's Treasure Hunter.
Yes, SMN has a reputation for power in the FF universe. Through the Avatar alone. Yuna was pathetic. Rydia was physically frail and on occasion unbelievably hard to keep alive in battle. FFV's Summoner should always be in the back rank, and if it picks attack, you're DOING IT WRONG (sidenote: most of this game's job archetypes are a mixture of FF3 and FF5's jobs, derp). Even in FF9 - who were the two Summoners? Dagger and Eiko. Yeah. They certainly hit like trucks with their... oh, right.Quote:
This thread and others like it exist because summoner has a reputaiton for power in the FF universe, and for most intents and purposes, summoner's -general- power is sorely lacking, not to say that there isn't anything it does well or is recognized for, but no job should be so shallow in strength or purpose.
I hope you're joking. I really, really hope you're joking.Quote:
You know you are wrong, I hope. I have both SMN and DNC leveled. My DNC just hundred fists with weak dagger pokes, none of them stronger than my staff pokes. If melee SMN is bad, then melee DNC is the worst thing you could ever find. The comes melee NIN and melee THF, since they also have low damage single handed weapons.
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07-23-2011, 09:12 PMKarbuncle
Their arguments aside (I dont agree with all points being tossed out)..
You're basically saying "They shouldn't do it because they haven't done it before"? Again i don't agree with all of Mala's and Alna's points but at the same time your arguments are just as bland.
You're saying "This is stupid because it hasn't happened in the past!". You ignore that games constantly evolve, if SE decided "Summoners should be able to truly imbue themselves with celestial powers" they could do it right there, and to F**k with old Final Fantasy titles and what they did.
That my only disagreement here, is being close-minded for the sake of pigeon holding jobs based on their previous incarnations in a series. Past games are irrelevant when it comes to the future. especially for gaming industries.
I'm not saying SMN should/Would take this direction, Just that its a flaw to believe nothing will ever change because it hasnt yet. -
07-23-2011, 09:25 PMTagrinethWell. it's not JUST that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbuncle
My main basis really is that in 10 years SMN has never had any kind of buff to its meleeing capabilities.
I pointed all the past-history stuff out in response to what Alhanelem said, because it's a significant reinforcement as to WHY summoner can't realistically melee worth a damn in FFXI. -
07-23-2011, 09:31 PMKarbuncleYah, I don't feel like SE is really a company who is going to break from the normal of their past. They seem to like keeping things relatively the same for jobs through all of their games...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tagrineth
But things could change. i highly doubt they will. But theres always the small chance :D
Again I think this kind of thing would be a blast to toy with if it was implemented, But i just dont see SE taking the job that direction either. In a way we agree.