Dragoon Manifesto thoughts

I thought oat spear was better than lolrhongo.

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Originally Posted by Seha

I thought oat spear was better than lolrhongo.

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I think DA spear is better?

Well, Oa2 or DA is better than Rhongo.

Although I guess Rhongo would be good practice for using Ryunohige, since you should play them both in the same style.

yeah OAT spear is better but it still wont hold a candle to a 90Masa if you don't have your wyvern lol

Masa isn't very good.

I just wanted to add in to the person who said we're not interested in being the masters of manipulating enmity, that's always been Thief's job and I'm sure Rangers feel the same way with the whole trying to bleed THF into our jobs. DRG is in a good spot right now and it's going to be really sad if they ignore the damage dealing aspects of MNK/DRG/RNG to try and make them more utility oriented. History has shown that people tend to care more about damage than utility, so it'd be really nice if we could get some kind of acknowledgement that the dev team understands this.

That or make the utility so great that it makes it worth sacrificing superior damage if you aren't going to keep damage in check. But really, I never signed up for a pet or support job. I signed up to jump. I'd go blow in a horn or pluck a harp if I cared about helping my teammates out so badly.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

I just wanted to add in to the person who said we're not interested in being the masters of manipulating enmity, that's always been Thief's job and I'm sure Rangers feel the same way with the whole trying to bleed THF into our jobs. DRG is in a good spot right now and it's going to be really sad if they ignore the damage dealing aspects of MNK/DRG/RNG to try and make them more utility oriented. History has shown that people tend to care more about damage than utility, so it'd be really nice if we could get some kind of acknowledgement that the dev team understands this.

That or make the utility so great that it makes it worth sacrificing superior damage if you aren't going to keep damage in check. But really, I never signed up for a pet or support job. I signed up to jump. I'd go blow in a horn or pluck a harp if I cared about helping my teammates out so badly.

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Well DRG has gotten some really good damage dealing jumps since 75, but hasn't DRG always had a support side to it?

People subbed BLU and RDM for a reason, though usually solo.

Funnest party I had was at lvl 61 birds, WAR+ 5x DRG/BLU. WAR for initial voke, then the thing just got penta thrusted to death. No one ever died either.

Yeah, that's not really relevant to an endgame event at all. This content is being balanced around level 99 endgame content as is stated clearly at the start of the manifesto.

Our original hate management was because of the damage we'd put out (penta spam) and keeping the mob off OUR backs. I'm not looking to cover for other people, hate shedding is supposed to be one of the few things we have for ourselves as an advantage. I'd just like to hear what SE will be doing to keep DRG's damage relevant to what'll be happening to WARs and SAMs so that we actually have a need to shed hate to begin with.

Really not a fan of homogeous design, the whole point of the job system is to have unique options that stand out from each other that players can identify with and grow attached to. Making all the jobs do the same stuff is really annoying and cheapens the unique factor of each job. (Enmity Douse, Bounty Shot, Konzen-Ittai) Not to mention that homogeny has got to be the laziest form of balance and just results in exaggerating the differences between which jobs are better once they all present the same options.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Really not a fan of homogeous design, the whole point of the job system is to have unique options that stand out from each other that players can identify with and grow attached to. Making all the jobs do the same stuff is really annoying and cheapens the unique factor of each job. (Enmity Douse, Bounty Shot, Konzen-Ittai) Not to mention that homogeny has got to be the laziest form of balance and just results in exaggerating the differences between which jobs are better once they all present the same options.

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Well as it stands the job's ... job description... is blurred with WAR's right now anyway.

DRG: JUMP JUMP WS WS WS WS JUMP WS WS WS JUMP JUMP WS WS WS WS oops forgot Hasso, JUMP oh hey look my wyvern's still alive lol cool JUMP WS WS nope nevermind it died.

WAR: BERSERK BLOOD RAGE RETALIATION WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WAR CRY WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS WS oops forgot Hasso RETALIATION WS WS WS WS BERSERK WS WS WS WS

I don't know if continuing to add jumps that do nothing other than damage is really what players want to separate DRG from WAR. Plus, jumps have that enmity reduction factor on them already. High Jump = -30%, Super Jump = -50%, allowing for them to keep pounding on the mob without being detected, while WAR just get's beat up on constantly and has always been an MP sponge.

I personally like the idea of enmity control for DRG. Granted it is THF's past role- but if you're going there then it was also DRK, SAM, and WAR's role too. Considering in the classic tank and spank scenario they all subbed THF for enmity control. I think that DRG getting it's own version of enmity control will allow it to sub SAM while DRK and WAR have to sub THF if we ever revert to tank and spank methods.

Edit: However I realize that players want is more damage rather than more utility, but that's not what makes it a unique job.

No job wants to be a master of Enmity >_> not even THF.

:\ I think the game will really need it assuming we don't go for more easy mode events like Abyssea anymore.

I mean if the actual enemies are strong?

And you need a PLD, because it two hits MNK

but you need a WAR too, because it's not dying fast enough

and the BLMs and WHMs keep getting hate,

Everyone will be all like "Damnit gotta go sub THF!"

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

No job wants to be a master of Enmity >_> not even THF.

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Pretty sure it isn't job based, but player based.

Like I want Summoner to be a jack of all trades, not master of anything, just good enough at spirits, rages, wards. But you'll still find a bunch of people that just want Summoner to be the best spike damage for no hate job.

I'm still not sure why, but almost all people playing a standard melee job only want to do damage. I guess the simple truth is that nobody wants strategy involved. Just engage, drink coffee, WS play. Which is a shame, since this game could be plenty fun if we needed another job than WAR in it.

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

Each job has its own method of controlling Enmity, even a job that doesn't and Collaborator becomes useful, it absorbs 25% of that persons enmity, it doesnt erase it completely, it goes to the THF... so Eventually that THF will tank and die. (if its on content harder than Abyssea)

On the topic of SMN, SMN is the best Hate-less DD. They have a great role in events like Voidwatch. Everyone whines about it being useless when they really shine in certain events. Voidwatch is one, The only thing i can truly think of for 90 cap, but thats because most content is Abyssea related atm.

I want SMN buffs to be buffed a bit, But they're far from useless unless you just dont play the job well or go with bad people who don't understand its uses. for instance back at 75 cap, SMN was useful for Tiamat, KSNM99 Wyrm and Behemoth, Ouryu, Most Jailer fights, Any kited HNM fight (Like say, King Behemoth), to a lesser Extent things like Perfect Defense on AV, or a lot of different Zerg fights.

They could solo KSNM's like E-Vase-Ive action, and ENMs like "Like the Wind" or w/e the devil that Eft fight was... SMN is an amazing job for its niche, Hateless Spike Damage.

I'm not saying it doesn't need buffs but its not really a bad job, Its just hurt in Abyssea, like DRK, PLD, and a few others. But Abyssea isn't going to last forever and we're already moving away, Hell PLD is already useful again for Voidwatch. Once the Abyssea-high is over it'll fall back into decent routines.

Anywho, Enough about that eh!

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

No job wants to be a master of Enmity control because most people can already control their own enmity through basic intelligence and precautions.

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I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I can control my own enmity on war.

If control means get it to 100% in 1~3 WS's.

Somehow I don't think it does.

Maybe I just don't understand what you're trying to say but, THF is the only one at the moment that has any form of hate control (Can take and give it).

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By enmity control I mean not going up and spamming Ukkos and getting 3-shotted there-after, like for instance, on BLM, most BLMs know the golden rule of not nuking Big nukes non-stop back to back unless they want to get stomped or have Enmity Douse up.

You are correct, maybe i should be a little more clear on the matter, right now THF's abilities in Enmity control are very situational. Collab/Accompl are great for quick moments if a mage/DD gets hate... But that 25% per use adds up over time to eventually the THF is the one getting hate, and he has no way to shed it outside of dying, or if he's really lucky, Hide (That doesnt work on 99% of NMs).

If they gave us a lot more useful Enmity control it wouldn't be too bad, Because it could speed up battles if a THF could take say, 25% of some BLMs enmity and dump it into oblivion instead of on himself, a BLM could nuke more, and thus kill faster.

But what i meant originally when i said most jobs know how to control their Enmity, I meant "A WAR knows to let his VE go down before blowing more WS's in the mobs face". Theres little you can do about CE though, it'll add up. Anyway, Performing actions to minimize the time you have hate is what i meant by "Enmity control", rather it be a WAR only going in to WS a mob, or a BLM nuking in longer intervals than normal... or a SAM who gets hate immediately putting on a PDT set and letting the mob beat the CE out of him with minimal MP sponged.

Edit: and of course I'm not referring to Abyssea. Abyssea is god-mode land where you rarely have to care about Enmity. I'm talking about harder content such as say, Voidwatch. I go to that example a lot as its the only real endgame content thats remotely difficult, and requires a bit of enmity controlling/restraint.

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Accomplice->Trick attack. It's not hard to dump enmity.

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Trick attack doesn't give any of the THFs enmity away. There is no dumping of Enmity involved. It only gives the enmity that the THF would have gained from the Damage of Trick attack to the person trick-attacked.

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

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Originally Posted by Seha

That's why you use it with a ws, so that the tricked gets a big enmity spike.

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But that still wouldn't dump the Enmity :X, which is where the problem lies. It would eventually, through Collaborator, Cap the THF on Enmity, Which could prove troublesome. Especially say if hes in Voidwatch and, what with collaborator being only 12' range, He uses Collaborate at a BLM, the mob turns (because he has capped Enmity from repeated use) and uses say.. Arm cannon on the THF, and it hits the BLMs because of it.

if THF is going to be the master of "The tides of battle" and "enmity control" they need an ability to dump that enmity into nothing-ness or the only solution would be the THF repeatedly dying to clear his enmity >.<

How did the DRG thread turn into thf and smn thread?

Back on topic, I don't need any more enm- SE I have Super Jump, and if I REALLY have to I can sacrifice using Soul Jump to use High Jump, and my enmity is usually gone. My god, we don't need anymore enmity control on our job. Just give us what was listed in the original post to our Wyvern at least and we'll be dandy for a while.

The biggest problems with DRG are...

1. Abilities tied to Wyvern
2. Abilities tied to other abilities

Issue (1) is that wyvern durability is almost nonexistent. SE can resolve this by making wyverns survivability greater or by reducing the recast of wyverns significantly (1-3min perhaps). If you're going to tie our melee capabilities to our wyvern, you need to make access to a wyvern as easy as it is for SMN and BST. Ignorant people will probably respond by demanding enhanced melee capability for SMN and BST, but they forget that the damage potential of our pets is leagues apart. The OP has made an effort to resolve this, but I don't think that his or her suggestions necessarily fix the problem. Instead, we should grant the wyvern near invulnerability while placing restrictions on wyvern tanking. For example, you can have wyvern's enmity rapidly reduce over time (Stopping at a certain VE/CE value if necessary).

Issue (2) is resolvable by significantly reducing the recast of tied abilities when opting for one jump over another. However, I think most players would prefer untied abilities.

Lets look at DRG's DD abilities by situation:

1. Dragon mob, wyvern up (best case scenario)
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight with Brais)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing (Marginal at best)
- Spirit Link (Assuming Empathy even copies haste buffs)
- Smiting Breath

2. Wyvern up (Common for certain XP mobs)
- Spirit Jump
- Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)
- Deep Breathing
- Spirit Link
- Smiting Breath

3. Dragon mob, no Wyvern
- Ancient Circle (3/20ths the fight)
- Dragon Breaker (3/10ths the fight)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump (Decreased enhancement)
- Angon (1/2 the fight)

4. No Wyvern or Dragon mob (Common scenario against tougher NMs)
- Jump
- High/Soul Jump
- Angon (1/2 the fight)


That's an overly generous list. Realistically, Deep Breathing, Smiting Breath, and Spirit Link shouldn't make the list. Furthermore, the DD potential drops significantly once we resort back to Jump/High Jump. Notice that our best ability, persistently, is Angon. SE should make DRG a DD that enhances the PT's DD potential. AOE Buffs and debuffs is the best direction to take DRG. This need not conflict with mages as there are a variety of AoE buffs/debuffs you can offer us that will not allow us to replace mages. Buffs from mages tend to focus on haste/attack enhancements. Debuffs from mages, on the other hand, tend to cripple the mob's offensive. I think mages would like to branch out into crippling the mob's defensive stats more than they currently do, but that will be for the dev team to work out.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

By enmity control I mean not going up and spamming Ukkos and getting 3-shotted there-after, like for instance, on BLM, most BLMs know the golden rule of not nuking Big nukes non-stop back to back unless they want to get stomped or have Enmity Douse up.

You are correct, maybe i should be a little more clear on the matter, right now THF's abilities in Enmity control are very situational. Collab/Accompl are great for quick moments if a mage/DD gets hate... But that 25% per use adds up over time to eventually the THF is the one getting hate, and he has no way to shed it outside of dying, or if he's really lucky, Hide (That doesnt work on 99% of NMs).

If they gave us a lot more useful Enmity control it wouldn't be too bad, Because it could speed up battles if a THF could take say, 25% of some BLMs enmity and dump it into oblivion instead of on himself, a BLM could nuke more, and thus kill faster.

But what i meant originally when i said most jobs know how to control their Enmity, I meant "A WAR knows to let his VE go down before blowing more WS's in the mobs face". Theres little you can do about CE though, it'll add up. Anyway, Performing actions to minimize the time you have hate is what i meant by "Enmity control", rather it be a WAR only going in to WS a mob, or a BLM nuking in longer intervals than normal... or a SAM who gets hate immediately putting on a PDT set and letting the mob beat the CE out of him with minimal MP sponged.

Edit: and of course I'm not referring to Abyssea. Abyssea is god-mode land where you rarely have to care about Enmity. I'm talking about harder content such as say, Voidwatch. I go to that example a lot as its the only real endgame content thats remotely difficult, and requires a bit of enmity controlling/restraint.

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Well let's hope SE realizes this, and allows these abilities to become more in depth.

Somehow though, I get the feeling that SE really is too lazy, or the budget is simply too small, to deal with enmity in advanced ways considering Enmity Douse is the most simple of all enmity control (Just puts you at the bottom of the list).

But, doesn't High Jump already have a -30% enmity reduction effect? And Super Jump -50%?

Edit: Apparently /DRG is -30%, DRG main is -50%, and Super Jump is -99% of "Accumulated Enmity"

yeah they want to basically say those effects will be added to the person behind you and call it a DRG update...

Oh thanks SE, how kind of you; lol... /sarcasm

I wouldn't mind if it had nothing to do with placement. Or if it shared the same timer as Super Jump.

nice to see threads about Drg, a job with comparitively few problems, in general forum stays here, but a topic about thief, which has much more issues, gets moderated and moved to the job specific forum where it is left to rot without any other cknowlegement from SE.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

nice to see threads about Drg, a job with comparitively few problems, in general forum stays here, but a topic about thief, which has much more issues, gets moderated and moved to the job specific forum where it is never acknowleged at all.

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Whining will help your cause for sure.

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Originally Posted by Seha

Whining will help your cause for sure.

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If history is any indication the sarcasm is meaningless as it actually will. >___>

THF has problems? I thought 8k Rudra's Storms were good, I guess I was wrong.

TH7 is something to complain about too

Not to mention it is by far the most wanted job for empyrean farming, along side WAR NIN and WHM.

I'll add it has the most evasion, and can actually pull off evasion tanking as /war in some cases.

Spoilered for off-topic-THF related content in DRG thread.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

THF has problems? I thought 8k Rudra's Storms were good, I guess I was wrong.

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Only in Abyssea. Content that is going bye bye. Outside We're weak. Our DPS is shit next to any real DD, and even the best SA/TA WS will pale next to a good Ukko's Furry of Victory Smite.

Its sad but the damage doesn't compare well outside Abyssea :|

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TH7 is something to complain about too

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No, Its the one good thing about the job. However, I simply believe Treasure hunter is not a good enough reason to keep THF a mediocre job thats only reason for existing is TH.

THFs problem isn't its gimmick abilities, Its that its damage is so poor its not worth its place as a Melee, so it will inevitably become a "Hit mob > Go afk" job again.

TH6 is also the highest we go naturally without Atmas. If you're saying a THF should use the TH Atma, You kinda elegantly proved my point, Being we're so worthless in DD no one cares if we sacrifice a large chunk of our DD (RR, GH, or Apoc, whichever one you remove for Dread) by putting on a TH Atma instead.

THF doesn't want to just be a TH whore. We love TH, But we feel we can contribute more to the party, All we want is a small damage boost to where we're not so far behind other DD on real endgame content.

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Not to mention it is by far the most wanted job for empyrean farming, along side WAR NIN and WHM.

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True, but only for TH whoring :\, THF is only useful for Treasure Hunter. We have no other redeeming quality. We don't feel other jobs should go ignored, we just feel THF should also be addressed.

Remember at 75 when it was "Hit the mob and sit down"? Oh yah, Loads of fun on THF. I love showing up to an event just to hit the mob and go away so i can feel useful! Most LS just had a LS THF Mule, and no other THF was allowed. why? because the job is worthless outside of TH.

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I'll add it has the most evasion, and can actually pull off evasion tanking as /war in some cases.

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It seems like you have not done a lot of Non-Abyssea Endgame content with a THF. I assure you if you step a THF outside abyssea with a DD worth his own grain of salt (oh hey, You have an Ukonvasara you can test this yourself!) That the THF will perform so horribly that its not even funny anymore.

Go test your UkonWAR vs a Mandau or Thwast THF on equal grounds against REAL enemies (like the VT+Demons in Dynamis, Voidwatch Enemies, etc), You will probably do more than 75% of the damage.

In Abyssea i admit we're very good too, Abyssea made up for a lot of our weaknesses, But my complaints are with outside Abyssea content, Where the game is heading.

If we continue down our current path our jobs will once again be "Hit the mob and stop feeding it TP gimpo", which will even further inevitably lead to most LS's just having a TH mule they drag around.

Guess which job this thread isn't for.

Yah, I know my discussion was off topic and i apologize.

Knowing it was off topic is why i Spoilered it, hoping it wouldn't take the original topic too far off course, By making it to where people wouldn't have to read it if they chose not too... If i could have PM'd him i would have.

I Even labeled it so people knew it was off-OP topic.

I was simply responding to a post made in my direction. In an attempt to be courteous and knowing my discussion was off topic, i Spoilered it to keep it from blowing up too big, and to allow the readers of the DRG thread to not be forced to read it.

You can continue your DRG related discussion any time you wish. I do not (and did not) intend to take the discussion any further.

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

THF has problems? I thought 8k Rudra's Storms were good, I guess I was wrong.

TH7 is something to complain about too

Not to mention it is by far the most wanted job for empyrean farming, along side WAR NIN and WHM.

I'll add it has the most evasion, and can actually pull off evasion tanking as /war in some cases.

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8k WS. That's great, except that that is linked to SA and TA, it's timers and it's positioning. One of those and you're pretty much hate capped. Making it even harder to pull it off again.

If Thief was Warrior, this is basically what the update would have given you:
We're going to focus on buffing Warrior's Defence Bonus and Resist Virus traits.
We're going to give Warrior's Charge to Samurai as well.
We're going to give Berserk and Aggressor to Dragoon and Dark Knight as well.

Thief is good in abyssea because it can tank and apply TH at the same time. It's damage is good and on par with any other crit WS job, however it's far from the strongest.

On remotely hard content we do shit. SE won't even give us Subtle Blow traits to offset our sub-200 delay daggers.
Thief was screaming for DW for years. they gave it to Dnc. They gave a force crit ability to Dnc. They want to give Triple Attack ability to Dnc.

The problem with Thief is that SE only wants to boost Steal and Enmity control. Steal is a steaming pile of shit, and all they want to do is up success rate so we can steal more Bone Chips and inflict random statuses on unimportant mobs with a 5 minute recast. Sounds awesome.

SE ignore the playerbase, and what they want from thief, they go back on their plans to enhance our DD capabilities and they give our signature abilities to other jobs.

Should THF be a great DD?
You need to ask yourself what it should be better than while still being able to give the ABSOLUTE best trait in the game. TH.

Better than PUP? Well yeah, if the PUP is using WHM frame.
Better than COR? Yeah, COR has great party utility.
Better than DNC? It should be. DNC can do so much in both solo and party settings.
Better than NIN? I don't know. NIN has less evasion than THF, and it's the premier evasion tank.
Better than RNG? Well RNG is kind of a Dedicated DD, isn't it? It gets TH now but its much less potent than THF TH.
More damage than DRK? No. THF should never do more damage than DRK. All DRK is is DD, it contributes nothing else to the party except for stuns.

You want to be doing more damage than dedicated DDs, while still maintaining incredibly high evasion(easily the highest), while still having some remnants of enmity control, while still having TH.

Though I agree; the THF update is awful, but THF is already an incredibly useful job. Everyone needs it just for TH, and would invite it even if it did absolutely nothing else but sit there and increase the drop rates of items.

I appologize to the DRG community again.

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You want to be doing more damage than dedicated DDs

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No we don't, None of us want to perform at the same level as a MNK, WAR, SAM, or DRG, At all. We never asked that. We want to be doing slightly more damage than "Shit tier".

Outside Abyssea half the jobs you named Wreck THF up and down the street blindfolded in terms of damage. COR being the exception, maybe PUP. RNG is an amazing DD, moreso in Voidwatch where you rarely get to Melee anything higher than T2. NIN is better than THF in the DD department as well thanks to much higher overall DPS attributed to Dual Wield V.

If we're going the "Vision" route, the master of "puppetmaster" Was never intended to be a DD, they had a C combat skill rating and no Melee gear (They were on all mage shit), they expected PUP to be SMN2.0 working off their Subjob and having pets fight. This vision changed to make PUP a better DD because it was laughed at becuase of this.

So is THF. the only reason THF isn't condemned to Lolpup territory is TH.

I just don't think TH is an excuse to keep the job mediocre in every other field. Thats not a good reason at all. Otherwise You'll have LS THF Mules running around again. Back at 75 most good LS's had 1 Token THF and/or LS mule who sat around in Thief's Knife and Assassin Armlets who hit the mob, and Afk'd. by 99 This will happen again except with new boots if we keep going the direction we are.

Its not asking for much, Only a small boost, something meaningful to our combat.

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Originally Posted by Karbuncle

I appologize to the DRG community again.

No we don't, None of us want to perform at the same level as a MNK, WAR, SAM, or DRG, At all. We never asked that. We want to be doing slightly more damage than "Shit tier".

Outside Abyssea half the jobs you named Wreck THF up and down the street blindfolded in terms of damage. COR being the exception, maybe PUP. RNG is an amazing DD, moreso in Voidwatch where you rarely get to Melee anything higher than T2. NIN is better than THF in the DD department as well thanks to much higher overall DPS attributed to Dual Wield V.

If we're going the "Vision" route, the master of "puppetmaster" Was never intended to be a DD, they had a C combat skill rating and no Melee gear (They were on all mage shit), they expected PUP to be SMN2.0 working off their Subjob and having pets fight. This vision changed to make PUP a better DD because it was laughed at becuase of this.

So is THF. the only reason THF isn't condemned to Lolpup territory is TH.

I just don't think TH is an excuse to keep the job mediocre in every other field. Thats not a good reason at all. Otherwise You'll have LS THF Mules running around again. Back at 75 most good LS's had 1 Token THF and/or LS mule who sat around in Thief's Knife and Assassin Armlets who hit the mob, and Afk'd. by 99 This will happen again except with new boots if we keep going the direction we are.

Its not asking for much, Only a small boost, something meaningful to our combat.

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I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

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Originally Posted by Leonlionheart

I don't think the update for THFs is good, but it's particularly hard to keep THF below a certain level, while still keeping it above a certain level.

Abyssea kind of shows this, making THF better than the truest dedicated DDs, like SAM and DRK.

Though I don't disagree with you, outside it does need buffing. But at what slot should it go in, that it doesn't already?

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I think a good Start would be to help us in the Critical hit department again. A job Trait that Increases our Critical hit rate woudln't hurt. should start low level and build up. Like for instance

Critical Rate Bonus-
THF 15/30/45/60/75/90
Lv1. 5%
Lv2. 7%
Lv3. 9%
Lv4. 11%
Lv5. 13%
Lv.6 15%

Daggers biggest bonus in damage will come from Critical hits. having our Crit rate higher than other jobs wouldn't obsolete jobs like the ones you listed, But boost our Damage enough it would be rather decent. It wouldn't be Abyssea level either.

And most jobs are better than SAM and DRK in abyssea :\, even PUP. Those jobs were just boned because of Razed Ruins. They're still good jobs, just Abyssea hurt them a lot.

I'm worried more for outside content. I feel our power is fine in abyssea, its what comes after I'm afraid We'll fall down on

I'm surprised it doesn't already have that JT lol

off topic too long,

DRG is cool

Inside Abyssea, any job with a critical hit WS is strong. That's not a comment on Thief as when those WSs most used (outside of empyrean) were introduced, there probably weren't any plans for abyssea.

If you want a good direction for Thief that isn't pure DD, then take a look at some of the great steal ideas that SE has decided to completely ignore in favour of just upping the success rate.
Upping the success rate on steal is like polishing a turd. It may be shiney, but it's still a turd. The whole steal system needs a re-work, and there are really good suggestions about what should be done.

Currently, the only good steal ability is Aura Steal, and it has a 5 minute timer and is cockblocked if the mob holds something. Apart from a certain Qiqirin in Salvage, and Brigandish Blade, there's really nothing worth stealing. Despoil is just steal but inflicts a random debuff. Useless on NMs as they don't carry stuff. Useless in general because you can't plan around it to make it useful.

Ideas have been thrown out like:
Make Aura Steal own ability, lower recast, merit catagory just increase success rate (dispel only @ 0/5, +X% absorb rate per merit).
Make Steal steal tempory items. The quality varying with the mob.
There's really fantastic despoil suggestions, like making them work like stratagems or quick draw and be a catagory with different debuffs you can despoil, and most importantly making it have nothing to do with the item stolen.

Things like this, and suddenly you get Thf from tagging the mob and AFKing, to being able to contribute more stuff outside of direct damage as well.

Lets go here

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/th...ob-adjustments.

Let's go there to look, but come back to discuss. At least in this forum there's a tiny chance someone from SE may reply.

It's obvious the SE reps read a lot of the topics, through the nature of some of their replies, and through the fact that some are moderated and moved. Yet they won't even bother to reply to any single thief topic about the issues that are raised time and time again.

I just don't want to continue here because it will likely be moderated for off topic discussion, no matter what we say :\

I'd like to think they have a reason that they never post in Job Forums. I assume they don't respond because they don't have the answers. I can't blame them. I know they read and send it off we cant be mad at them for anything :X

Plus when they do respond they still get hate-responses sometimes. Its a thankless job sometimes, They're only human, Shit If i was them I'd probably stop responding to so many threads if no one ever appreciated the work i did -.-