Reopened: How can Empyrean be better than Relics?

Quote:

---

Anything you don't need to even do the event it come from is not hard.

---

Buying all your currency from bazaars is impractical and will take longer than either just doing the event or doing both. Buying it all also requires nearly to possibly more than 200 million gil depending on your server, while getting the currency yourself is now extremely cheap in terms of cost. Additionally, you DO have to do the event- You need all the city wins and the beaucadine win to be able to complete all the tasks required in addition to the currency. Before they removed casting warp from the animated weapons, they weren't that easy, and attestations weren't always so easy too (and you'd often have to do the fight multiple times).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Anything you don't need to even do the event it come from is not hard. You cac and people have bought are thier coins from bazzars go back and merc the other items. Gil has never been nor never will be hard to get, anyone that had problems farm gil in the old days didn't know how or were to lazy to try.

I in the last week I have made over 1.5 mil not even selling gear or weapons from soloing KI box farming. Time to finish does not = challenge. It's wasn't that hard to run a dyna shell, if you didn't pick up jeuno shout people. My personal fav that I seen to many times is the LS holder getting some one else to run event to event operations the shell thinking they were next in line for a relic. With all the shady actions that relics had associated with them why people would still want them is beyond me.

---

You are just one of those people who has a bug up their ass about relic weapons cause you heard a story or thought you should have been able to sponsor and weren't able to. Someone wronged you in your mind so you are applying your situation to everything. I have actually done the mythic quest and I own a relic weapon. I'm telling you they are around the same level of difficulty until you do either one of them you should probably stop making assumptions. And just a little math for you.. at 1.5 mil a week it would still take you over 2 years to make the gil required to buy a relic outright. If you wanted to take let's say 6 months to buy a relic you would need to make over 8 mil a week. 8 mil a week has never been a walk in the park minus the inflation period of way back when. Just cause you can buy a relic doesn't mean you aren't working equally hard to make that money somewhere else. In fact.. it's far easier to sponsor your relic and actually do the event than it is make the gil you would need to buy it. If you break it down to time invested you are looking at hours per day vs. a few hours twice a week.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

You are just one of those people who has a bug up their ass about relic weapons cause you heard a story or thought you should have been able to sponsor and weren't able to. Someone wronged you in your mind so you are applying your situation to everything. I have actually done the mythic quest and I own a relic weapon. I'm telling you they are around the same level of difficulty until you do either one of them you should probably stop making assumptions. And just a little math for you.. at 1.5 mil a week it would still take you over 2 years to make the gil required to buy a relic outright. If you wanted to take let's say 6 months to buy a relic you would need to make over 8 mil a week. 8 mil a week has never been a walk in the park minus the inflation period of way back when. Just cause you can buy a relic doesn't mean you aren't working equally hard to make that money somewhere else. In fact.. it's far easier to sponsor your relic and actually do the event than it is make the gil you would need to buy it. If you break it down to time invested you are looking at hours per day vs. a few hours twice a week.

---

I have seen it. 1.5 mil in a week not trying to farm. How many times have you seen some disappear after getting a relic hmm. Theres nothing to relics to really feel proud about. People will look down on you for having one being either as a no lifer, gil buyer, shell gave you one, shell user. Now all you need is a war and a whm you could make a mil in a hour.

1.5mil in a week= 100 currency in a week. You'd be better off solo farming Dynamis. You need 17k currency to make a relic weapon, unless I'm remembering wrong.

People can't read can they. 1.5 mil doing something I would be doing anyway.

I can make 3 mil a day fishing with 1 character, how long will it take me to buy a relic?
How about if I fish on my mule+my main+my alt account?

When I say this, I mean fishing up fish, then selling those fish to NPCs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

People can't read can they. 1.5 mil doing something I would be doing anyway.

---

I do it too, but you aren't exactly making "Relic-blitzing" quantities of gil there. 1.5mil/day and you'd be approaching what you can solo through Dynamis.

If you want to make the argument that relics are easy to get, you should just say, "Well, I can enter Dynamis for free every day and solo about 100 currency average."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I do it too, but you aren't exactly making "Relic-blitzing" quantities of gil there. 1.5mil/day and you'd be approaching what you can solo through Dynamis.

If you want to make the argument that relics are easy to get, you should just say, "Well, I can enter Dynamis for free every day and solo about 100 currency average."

---

Or you could just talk about how much gil you can make every day fishing..... and hope people can figure out on their own why its such a big deal that you can make 3m/character/day fishing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

I can make 3 mil a day fishing with 1 character, how long will it take me to buy a relic?
How about if I fish on my mule+my main+my alt account?

When I say this, I mean fishing up fish, then selling those fish to NPCs.

---

The only way to make 3m+ a day from fishing is if you have a buyer for gugrusaurus/lik, and they are going to get their rod if you're fishing up 3m/day of fish for them. So that gravy train will run dry quick.

Hakuryu sell for 10,490g. At 200 a day thats 2.1M/day per character. And it's impossible to hit fatigue on those without cheating.

There is also no point to fishing on a mule if you're fishing up 3m/day of any type of fish because you will spend all your time on your main, he will never hit fatigue on anything that can make that amount of gil. An alt requires you to actually get ebisu rod again and on top of that pay an extra 12.95/month to SE(and again cheat and who is going to risk getting an ebisu rod banned?). These are large obstacles to this method of making gil you are overlooking. Almost nobody but the crazy are going to do this.

You may as well say "If you farm abyssea 20 hours a day on four characters you can make 10mil a day. How long is it going to take me to make a relic making 10mil a day?" without taking into account that requires you to play 20 hours a day and actually HAVE four characters.

Mythic Polearm is pretty much the best possible one you can obtain. It's just way too damn good and takes a literal dump on Gungnir and the Emperyan Polearm.

You can also make it in a hour. Can make more if you then sell the NM pops that you FC up, but doubt you would do that since thats the main reason people FC the suckers are just iceing. After that sell the cruor gear from the crour you will biuld up. People paying to be PL may only be short term but the people willing to buy NMs pops could be long term.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alienmonkey

The only way to make 3m+ a day from fishing is if you have a buyer for gugrusaurus/lik, and they are going to get their rod if you're fishing up 3m/day of fish for them. So that gravy train will run dry quick.

Hakuryu sell for 10,490g. At 200 a day thats 2.1M/day per character. And it's impossible to hit fatigue on those without cheating.

There is also no point to fishing on a mule if you're fishing up 3m/day of any type of fish because you will spend all your time on your main, he will never hit fatigue on anything that can make that amount of gil. An alt requires you to actually get ebisu rod again and on top of that pay an extra 12.95/month to SE(and again cheat and who is going to risk getting an ebisu rod banned?). These are large obstacles to this method of making gil you are overlooking. Almost nobody but the crazy are going to do this.

You may as well say "If you farm abyssea 20 hours a day on four characters you can make 10mil a day. How long is it going to take me to make a relic making 10mil a day?" without taking into account that requires you to play 20 hours a day and actually HAVE four characters.

---

Who doesnt have an alt to begin with?
[Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made. So lets see here, which is harder, not playing ffxi and having a ton of gil and buying a relic, or going out and fighting some NMs, no matter how easy.

EDIT: I also clearly said you make the gil by fishing then selling the fish to an NPC, quit saying I wont be able to find buyers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

Who doesnt have an alt to begin with?
And the amount of time it takes is not important because well....... [Removed by Moderator according to the FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines.] And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made. So lets see here, which is harder, not playing ffxi and having a ton of gil and buying a relic, or going out and fighting some NMs, no matter how easy.

---

Yeah most people have an alt nowdays, but not everyone.
A quick /sea all on valefor shows 1800 people online. There are 2000 ebisus across all servers. Split by 16 that's 125 per server. We know from the census that ~10% of players have fishing level 100. Ignoring the fact that 1800 on valefor is just what is online now, and not the actual active playerbase, 7% of currently online players would have an ebisu rod.

You are saying that multiple ebisu = easy relic. So you need at least 2x ebisu to make it worthwhile. Let's be generous and take 2% of that 7% and give it to another 2% of players. So we have 5% of the playerbase with ebisu rods and 2% of those that have multiple ebisu rods. So 2% of the currently online playerbase(the real amount is lower) have an easy time making a relic. That doesn't seem like a lot to me. Two percent. How does that make relics easy for the other 98% I wonder?

And on top of all that, we are also assuming that all of them are willing to cheat and risk the banhammer, which I don't think is the case.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

EDIT: I also clearly said you make the gil by fishing then selling the fish to an NPC, quit saying I wont be able to find buyers.

---

Then you're just plain wrong. You can't make 3m/day fishing with vendor to npc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

And this along with the other method that was previously mentioned by someone other then me is how 90% of relics were made.

---

You are out of your mind if you believe this. That figure is probably more like 2%.

I'm simply pointing out the easiest way to do it, and how most were obtained. I don't really care how many ebisu's there are or how many people have 100 fishing, if you did it every day you could have one in under 3 months starting from nothing. And if you wanted lots of gil its the best way to go about obtaining it. There's a reason RMTs always fish botted like crazy, its because it made tons and tons of gil with no effort.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

You are out of your mind if you believe this. That figure is probably more like 2%.

---

There was a guy on my old server, he RMTd 3 relics then got hit by salvage bans, came back and bought 3 more, thats probably more then 2% by itself.
(2% for that server)

The gp for serpent rumors is going to take a whole month on its own. If its so easy why isn't your fishing 100 with multiple ebisu?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

There was a guy on my old server, he RMTd 3 relics then got hit by salvage bans, came back and bought 3 more, thats probably more then 2% by itself.
(2% for that server)

---

Because 6 is 2% of 6000 right? (We aren't talking about your old server we're talking all servers) Relics were number 1 for years and years. If it was sooo easy there would be 100,000 of them seeing as we already have 15,000(?) emps in less than a year right? Also RMTs didn't make a ton of gil individually they fished cheap junk on a huge scale and controlled the market. The majority of relics were funded by HNM linkshell payouts and Dynamis sponsoring. I don't understand why some people want so badly to believe that anyone with a relic lied cheated and stole to get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Korpg

So, is it worth making a Bravura now then?

---

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coldbrand

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.

---

And? I loved getting my Usuaken armor. It took what felt like forever. When the af3 came out, I moved to it. I'm not going to wear inferior gear just because.

What I'm attached to is the journey and time it takes to get these items, not the items themselves.

Just because I don't use Usukane anymore doesn't mean I regret the journey and the process I took to obtain it.

If there is something better than what I have, I'll make means to obtain it. New journeys for new memories.

Wow, can't believe that Vegetto and I agree on the same thing so much...

I am making a Ukon at the moment, and I want to make sure it is the great axe of choice for me. That is why I asked the question, I wanted to know what the absolute best is, because I don't want to have different weapons for different events or weapons I won't use 99% of the time.

Another thing is each update since relic were interduced had weapons gaining on relics. Its about the same as being in a HNM LS, even if the one you were in didn't bot doesn't mean it to wasn't tainted by it. Sponsoring dyna wasn't that much better, you put up 1mil/500k and walk away with 3 or 4 times your investment. Players could see sponsors as being favored by the leader. So even people with the means to get a relic stayed away from them. Even sponsoring you didn't need to be at the event. Not one thing about sponsoring was hard either. Time shink does not = challenge. With emp. weapons they removed a good deal of the time sink.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Coldbrand

I just want to point out you're the kind of player I dislike. You have no real attachment to any of these weapons or items, you just want what's best at this particular moment.

---

And you're the kind of person who I dislike, because you can't move on to new gear/strategies/play styles/etc/etc/etc and live in the past with your relics and kings and sky and salvage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

I don't understand why some people want so badly to believe that anyone with a relic lied cheated and stole to get it.

---

You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alienmonkey

The gp for serpent rumors is going to take a whole month on its own. If its so easy why isn't your fishing 100 with multiple ebisu?

---

Who says I don't have 100 fishings and ebisus? just from checking my FFXIAH you can see I have 50 fishing and lu shangs, use that to find and check my guildwork you can find my alt and see the same can be said of her. Who says I don't have other characters that I fish on and just use my mains to get the lu shangs for the mules to get them started? And just for the record, relics were never worth the investment for me, I used my gil for other things, still do. Maybe if they become superior at 99 I will give a crap, til then, g horn mule is all I'll ever care to do.

Honestly ive always hated the idea of linking a WS to a specific weapon.
It poses balance issues as well as several logistical issues. A strong ws linked only to a specific Weapon can instantly make all other weapons in that category obsolete(balance issue). This is a beast example but im a bst so meh, worked to unlock farsha but often times i cant wear farsha because i require another weapon for wat im doing. During these times im locked out of using this cloudsplitter WS i worked to unlock because its tied into farsha. Would be much more practical if i had been able to quest for cloudsplitter and use it with any axe. And at the same time still have Farsha for when i can truly focus on pure DD (logistical issue).

I think Mythic's was a good balance in that respect. The WS gave added benefits for a mythic user BUT with a quest anyone could get and use the WS. Personally tho id prefer the WS's not be tied to a weapon at all. I would rather the weapon just have really unique and strong stats and make the special WS's available to everyone. With a quest or without a quest it doesnt matter.

If empyreon WS's and relic WS's were questable like mythic WS's, then the balance issue would be solved. The super stupid easy empyreons for the most part would stop being the ultimate top #1 weapons but still maintain a value as a strong weapon. The harder to make mythics would for the most part end up the strongest and the relics would easily pass up the empyreans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

And you're the kind of person who I dislike, because you can't move on to new gear/strategies/play styles/etc/etc/etc and live in the past with your relics and kings and sky and salvage.



You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm.



Who says I don't have 100 fishings and ebisus? just from checking my FFXIAH you can see I have 50 fishing and lu shangs, use that to find and check my guildwork you can find my alt and see the same can be said of her. Who says I don't have other characters that I fish on and just use my mains to get the lu shangs for the mules to get them started? And just for the record, relics were never worth the investment for me, I used my gil for other things, still do. Maybe if they become superior at 99 I will give a crap, til then, g horn mule is all I'll ever care to do.

---

Show us how easy it is. Start a new account and get a relic within a month.

Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

I think that was relic data from the last census up until April of this year.

I don't know on the front page it said all data collected in may. They could have just compaired the two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Byrth

I think that was relic data from the last census up until April of this year.

---

SE said that the data were used up until the May 10th update, so before that Dynamis overhaul update.

Quote:

---

I think Mythic's was a good balance in that respect. The WS gave added benefits for a mythic user BUT with a quest anyone could get and use the WS. Personally tho id prefer the WS's not be tied to a weapon at all. I would rather the weapon just have really unique and strong stats and make the special WS's available to everyone. With a quest or without a quest it doesnt matter.

---

For the most part, ESPECIALLY the mage's, this is how the weapons for the mages should've been all about. The stats actually benefits the mages, and what they do, especially Yagrush. Who wouldn't want a WHM with permanent Divine Veil effect? It's why it's extremely popular. Basically, the mythic had the right idea: It focuses on boosting certain aspect of the jobs, but most of them barely boost it to the point where the weapon was still unremarkable, and therefore, there was little justification to obtain them other than for the sake of achievement.

The Polearm, Ryunohige, is also a great example of how it benefits the job. It takes advantage of one of the unique aspect of Dragoons (the jumps) and greatly strengthens it. Jumps for Dragoon is already strong, with spirit and soul jumps, it's even stronger. This is why Ryunohige is considered as one of the best DD mythic weapon. Even then, you cannot deny that the mythic weapon is nearly unreasonable to obtain when only extremely few of them were actually worth getting. No one does it because the events involved, hardly anyone want do nowadays since abyssea gears replaced just about most of it. This is especially true for Salvage, and because of this, the cost of Alexandrites have skyrocketed, and there's never enough in the server to justify doing any mythic to begin with.

Finally, the other biggest problem with mythic is that it requires constant group effort. You need an alliance to do Einherjar at minimum. You still need 3 people to do all 50 assaults, AND Nyzul, which takes a lot of time. You still need a decent group to do ZNMs, and be prepared to do all 3 ZNM paths, multiple times, due to how rarity of the final three trophy. And of course, you still need a group for salvage for the Alexandrites. I'm not saying mythics should be soloable (this isn't the point here), but what I'm saying is you're going to have a very hard justifying finding people that is willing to stick with you the whole way there. Here's how people are going to see this. "The gears are outdated." or "The Mythic sucks (Unless you're doing Nirvana, Ryunohige, Yagrush, or Burtgang)." or "This is very time consuming, I don't think I'm up for it", you get the point.

People say that Mythic should've been the best. I agree, but guess what. They are far from the best. Case in point: Vajra is a very unremarkable weapon for a THF, especially since it barely boosts the SATA damage.

Dynamis relic is much easier now, there's no denying that. You *could* technically solo on the currencies, and find a few people (say 6 people) to kill the NMs drops, especially Attestation and fragment. Also, to say that Relics are easier to do than Empyrean weapons, It's debatable. Look at Masamune/Caladbolg/Armageddon, at most you only need two people for this, three to do this quicker (War, nin, whm for staggering red, obviously).

Quote:

---

And? I loved getting my Usuaken armor. It took what felt like forever. When the af3 came out, I moved to it. I'm not going to wear inferior gear just because.

What I'm attached to is the journey and time it takes to get these items, not the items themselves.

Just because I don't use Usukane anymore doesn't mean I regret the journey and the process I took to obtain it.

If there is something better than what I have, I'll make means to obtain it. New journeys for new memories.

---

I agree with this 100%. A lot of the gears I have, I have attachments to it because of the journey to obtain the gears, and most of them I don't even use anymore because they were replaced, and there's nothing beneficial about it anymore. For example, the recently replaced Shura Togi +1? Most people at first would think I spend an extreme amount of money on it. How much did I really spend on it? ~425K. Almost two years ago, I spent 2 weeks looking for materials and a crafter to make the cursed togi. The divine lumbers were still expensive, and it involved a some mid-leveled gear that no one ever makes. After finally getting everything I needed, I asked my crafter friend to make it, and boom, it +1'd to my and the crafter's surprise. It was even first attempt too. It sucked that I no longer use it, so now my mannequin wears it in my MH, but hey, the journey to get it made it worth while.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

---

No one who couldn't make a relic before the dyna update is going to have it finished by now most likely. It's still a ton of work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wish12oz

You seem to be unaware of this so let me spell it out for you, all those people with the awesome gear either cheat, or play with a bunch of people who cheat and profit from it. Quit deluding yourself and thinking the 1% of people with everything who don't cheat are the norm..

---

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

Really its not about being hard since it was never hard to make a relic, time consuming yes. If we had the system we have now for relic they would be more common. Correct me if i'm wrong but the relic data was only for the cenus was one month.

---

Protip: Nothing in this game is hard if you aren't terrible at it. It's all time sinks. Getting an empyrean is easier than most regular magian trials because magian trials are more of a time sink.

Hello Everyone!

I know it can be easy to get sidetracked, given the nature of this thread, but please keep the conversation on topic. Also please refrain from personal attacks, as it does not lead to productive conversation. A number of posts needed to be removed for these reasons.

If you would like to review the Forum Guidelines, they can always be found at the link below:

FINAL FANTASY XI FORUM Guidelines
http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=20&la=1

Thank you for your cooperation!

I personally don't like the idea of very old content weapons being the best for years and years. I prefer something new and powerful enough to make it a most wanted item. Just like armors, most of the old content armory is gimp compared to now. Thats just my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alienmonkey

No one who couldn't make a relic before the dyna update is going to have it finished by now most likely. It's still a ton of work.

---

Not really only getting 100 coins a day buying or soloing would take you 170 days to finish that part. Now if you can solo 100 coins and buy one 100 piece which runs around 1.2 to 1.5 on my server you can cut that in half. With gil raining from the sky if you go out and farm it as your prime target you would have little trouble getting enough to buy one 100 piece a day. Since all you have to do to get a 100 singles is go to the north lands which are the easiest to get 4/5, 5/5 TEs decent solo class can proc on the JA mobs. Doing that we are now down to 85 days to finish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?



Protip: Nothing in this game is hard if you aren't terrible at it. It's all time sinks. Getting an empyrean is easier than most regular magian trials because magian trials are more of a time sink.

---

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.

---

Proved what exactly?

Given the chance anyone will try to cheat the system. You can not say that if the cheat was more widely known that every endgame LS that did salvge wouldn't have used it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

Proved what exactly?

---

I believe he/she meant to prove that players didn't need any skill to get anything accomplished back then, only cheating/taking advantage of bugs/packet injection bots/telehacking/fleehackers. These players/groups have/had quite an advantage over the community that do not use them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Insaniac

Oh man.. You're one of those people. Anyone who accomplished more than you was clearly cheating amiright?

---

My original response to you got removed, so lets try this again.

If you're going to come on here and subtly call me a noob with bad gear, you're incorrect. When I say they cheat, I'm speaking from experience. Having played this game since forever and being one of the original NA people doing endgame activities and continuing to do that stuff up until now, I assure you pretty much all very good endgame LS cheated, especially right before abyssea was introduced. I dunno how it was for you, but I assume it was the same as every other server, with 1 or 2 LS's having very good bots and dominating kings and land HNMs, and no one else even bothering to compete with them. You can't even counter with 'people who did events that didnt require bots didnt cheat' because well.... salvage bans? Ya, even those people who only did those types of events cheated. And just for lulz, anyone remember how many relics were lost with salvage bans? wasn't it like 500 perma banned and another 500 or so temp banned? Cause you know, people with relics dont cheat.

So anyway, since I know you think Im some terrible player with poor gear, here's a link to my guildwork to show otherwise.
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kaerin#/loot
Here's my followcatwhm:
http://guildwork.com/ffxi/odin/kiraen

Why dont you post yours and we'll compare.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ravenmore

The salvage bans proved it. A large part of some of the so called elite got banned. Even being terrribe didn't mean crap if you were good at farming gil.

---

Wait, just because they got banned didn't put them in the elite. Just those who like to use a method outside of norm for their own personal gain and exploit it.