Jupiter's staff question

Of course AGI modifies RACC lol, that's always been known. When you say things like a fact, you are implying you want people to believe you. There was no notice of "by results of my own testing...." to clarify why exactly you thought the AGI+ from the Wind Staff would increase your crit rate on RNG.

Example of you implying it as a fact:

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This is incorrect. AGI affects it but I can't say if it affects it in the same way that DEX does for melee crit rate.

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Many more can be found but for the sake of time, I'll leave it at that one.

You obviously do want people to believe you but got called out on your "missing" tests to back up your findings and all you could provide was "do your own tests."

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Originally Posted by Catsby

What was the number of DEX over target AGI for capping crit rate? Something like +50 if I remember correctly. I wonder if that rule applies to ranged crits.

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Yeah it was speculated +50 over the mobs AGI. Since Abyssean mobs are normal average mobs, it's super easy to hit that with Atma's and Cruor buffs. Personally I just got done burning through a couple of stacks of arrows testing both with AGI coming out on top by 26 crits to 20 with DEX. Admittedly I had hoped to have a wider margin, I'll probably end up doing another round to see if I can't get a better assesment.

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Originally Posted by Alkalinehoe

Of course AGI modifies RACC lol, that's always been known.

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Great. My hypothesis has face validity then. DEX modifies melee acc and melee crit. AGI may easily follow a similar pattern for ranged attacks.

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When you say things like a fact, you are implying you want people to believe you.

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No I don't. When I say things like a fact it's because they contradict or support what's being argued.

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There was no notice of "by results of my own testing...." to clarify why exactly you thought the AGI+ from the Wind Staff would increase your crit rate on RNG.

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I was discussing the pattern found on that line of staves. If AGI enhances ranged crit rate (by my understanding it does) then the wind staff would by extension. not because it's special or enhances ranged crit on it's own.

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Example of you implying it as a fact:

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Because according to what I understand this is true.

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You obviously do want people to believe you but got called out on your "missing" tests to back up your findings

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I hardly got called out and my tests aren't missing they're deleted. Intentionally.

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and all you could provide was "do your own tests."

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That's how science works brah. I can tell you what I did and approximations of what I got but if you have a problem with any of it then it's your responsibility to experiment on your own. I don't recall saying anything was absolute (but if I did, WHOOPS!) but only that things were incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Yeah it was speculated +50 over the mobs AGI. Since Abyssean mobs are normal average mobs, it's super easy to hit that with Atma's and Cruor buffs. Personally I just got done burning through a couple of stacks of arrows testing both with AGI coming out on top by 26 crits to 20 with DEX. Admittedly I had hoped to have a wider margin, I'll probably end up doing another round to see if I can't get a better assesment.

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That's pretty much what I did. I just went down the list of parameters stacking each one to like 250ish and looked at what I got for ranged crits. Every time it was around 10% except for AGI, which made it around 20%

I didn't quite go that high with the stats. I used the same gear setup with both and used Kirin for AGI and Omnipotent for DEX along with single cruor buffs. Overall DEX was 79+96, and AGI was 87+86 when I tested each setup, but I figured that was more than enough to accurately test.

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Originally Posted by Catsby

Great. My hypothesis has face validity then. DEX modifies melee acc and melee crit. AGI may easily follow a similar pattern for ranged attacks.

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Why does that easily follow a similar pattern? STR gives Ranged Attack and Melee Attack, by that pattern, DEX gives Melee Crit rate and Ranged Crit rate.... There's another pattern for ya.

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No I don't. When I say things like a fact it's because they contradict or support what's being argued.

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And the whole point of saying things like a fact against contradicting opinions is because you want people to believe your side. Really now...

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I hardly got called out and my tests aren't missing they're deleted. Intentionally.

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Why would you delete a 10,000 arrow sample? Was it filling up your HDD? Not to mention if you really did uncover evidence of AGI modifying ranged crit rate instead of the widely known and tested belief that DEX increases ranged crits you would think you would save this info and share it ya? This is exactly why me and noodles are suspicious of your "tests."

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That's how science works brah. I can tell you what I did and approximations of what I got but if you have a problem with any of it then it's your responsibility to experiment on your own. I don't recall saying anything was absolute (but if I did, WHOOPS!) but only that things were incorrect.

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But why do our tests when we have no reason to believe the current formula is incorrect? Someone walked in, claimed something different with no evidence at all (other than their word at this point), and we should go out and test it? I could walk into a the BRD forum and say MND had an effect on song MACC, how many BRDs would genuinely go test this out without any proof on my own? If you had originally posted with your parse and showed me evidence of AGI affecting crit rate, I would have tested it, but that's not what happened. It's your responsibility to use evidence to back up your facts when you are trying to present new information that is attempting to debunk old and solid evidence.

edit: plus the whole you not knowing AGI affected RACC thing makes it seem fishy. I mean, what RNG doesn't know that?

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Originally Posted by Alkalinehoe

Why does that easily follow a similar pattern? STR gives Ranged Attack and Melee Attack, by that pattern, DEX gives Melee Crit rate and Ranged Crit rate.... There's another pattern for ya.

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No. Because attack isn't accuracy.

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And the whole point of saying things like a fact against contradicting opinions is because you want people to believe your side. Really now...

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Wait, what?

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Why would you delete a 10,000 arrow sample? Was it filling up your HDD? Not to mention if you really did uncover evidence of AGI modifying ranged crit rate instead of the widely known and tested belief that DEX increases ranged crits you would think you would save this info and share it ya? This is exactly why me and noodles are suspicious of your "tests."

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I don't remember what we were originally doing but me and a friend who just finished Gandiva went out to test something with the linkshell. I was watching him in parse when I noticed his crit rate was alarmingly low despite having RR and GH. I asked my linkshell if DEX affected ranged crit rate. They all said it did but nearly all the other Damager dealers in the parse had a % way higher.

After the testing I came here and talked about it in the other thread. People were pretty meh about it so I figured it was old news. At that point I deleted the parse files.

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But why do our tests when we have no reason to believe the current formula is incorrect? Someone walked in, claimed something different with no evidence at all (other than their word at this point), and we should go out and test it? I could walk into a the BRD forum and say MND had an effect on song MACC, how many BRDs would genuinely go test this out without any proof on my own? If you had originally posted with your parse and showed me evidence of AGI affecting crit rate, I would have tested it, but that's not what happened. It's your responsibility to use evidence to back up your facts when you are trying to present new information that is attempting to debunk old and solid evidence.

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Like I said. I thought it was old news.

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edit: plus the whole you not knowing AGI affected RACC thing makes it seem fishy. I mean, what RNG doesn't know that?

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just verifying.

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Originally Posted by Swords

I didn't quite go that high with the stats. I used the same gear setup with both and used Kirin for AGI and Omnipotent for DEX along with single cruor buffs. Overall DEX was 79+96, and AGI was 87+86 when I tested each setup, but I figured that was more than enough to accurately test.

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It might be. I don't know how people find the parameters of various monsters.

Give or take the mobs job and any characteristic traits related to the family of the mob, its pretty safe to say non-NM mobs pretty much have equivilant stats compared to players

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Originally Posted by Catsby

No. Because attack isn't accuracy.

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No because accuracy isn't crit rate.

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Wait, what?

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idk

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I don't remember what we were originally doing but me and a friend who just finished Gandiva went out to test something with the linkshell. I was watching him in parse when I noticed his crit rate was alarmingly low despite having RR and GH. I asked my linkshell if DEX affected ranged crit rate. They all said it did but nearly all the other Damager dealers in the parse had a % way higher.

After the testing I came here and talked about it in the other thread. People were pretty meh about it so I figured it was old news. At that point I deleted the parse files.

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I honestly wouldn't take a lot seriously from these forums. There's an alarming number of trolls or players who don't know what they're doing. I can see know why you think it would be old news, but still, after everyone in your LS saying DEX but reading responses here saying AGI, I personally wouldn't think it would be old news.

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Originally Posted by Swords

Give or take the mobs job and any characteristic traits related to the family of the mob, its pretty safe to say non-NM mobs pretty much have equivilant stats compared to players

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Yeah most mobs have slightly higher stats that players. I remember most end game mobs at 75 had a CHR stat at around 110, which is why many BRDs tried to get a cummulative 120 CHR when debuffing them. I think BLMs tried to get like 130 or so. These were all of course level 90 mobs too, so they honestly aren't that far off from players. It was usually the level penalties of a 90 vs 75 that was so intimidating back then.

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Originally Posted by Swords

And with all that AGI gear in mind, it shouldn't even be a challenge to cap your ranged crit. rate [...] out of Abyssea.

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Weak mobs at 75 had around 60-70 AGI. You needed around 110-120 DEX to cap crit rate. It's pretty fair to assume mobs you'd be fighting at level 90 (Lv. 95-100ish) would have 80-90 AGI (This is a number that most people use when theory crafting). That would mean you would need 130-140AGI to cap crit rate. In a standard Good ranger TP set, that doesn't use either Skote or AF3 feet, you're looking at around 100-110 AGI. You can get that to 130-140ish with pieces like Skotes, AF3 feet, scout's belt, etc, but you're statement of "it shouldn't even be a challenge" is wrong. Obtaining the gear is not a challenge, deciding to use pure AGI gear (Af3 feet and skote for example) over better damage gear (Blood Fng. Gnt/AF3 hands depending, and Relic Feet +1) is a challenge.
You, like so many other posters who don't actually look into ger sets and stats enough, would do well to shut up and stop posting false infomation without even a hint of research.

The argument of "There's a lot of AGI on rng gear so it probably affects crit rate" is very weak. There's a lot of Vit on drg gear, even AF3, yet Vit is only useful for Jump (Not High Jump, Super Jump, spirit Jump or Soul Jump... just Jump). As mentioned, Dnc has a lot of gear with chr. Because Chr is useful for healing. Thf has gear with Chr, because of dancing edge. Drk has gear with int and mnd, mnd because it's a mod on guillotine and int because of their elemental magic. Ranger has a lot of AGI gear. All RNG WSs except Jishnu's have AGI mods. AGI increases Racc. These two are reason enough to put AGI on a lot of RNG gear. It's not reason enough to argue that AGI affects crit rate for ranged attacks.
Furthermore, you say "Rng gear has lots of agi but little dex". That is not accurate either. Yes, artifact, relic and empyrean maybe, however most of ranger's other gear is shared by other light armor jobs like cor, thf, dnc, etc and generally has a good amount of dex on too. Aurore, Skadi, Denali, etc.

It really is a simple test to do. Go out for a merit alliance in abyssea. Fight a decent number of monsters with an atma which has neither crit rate, dex or agi on. Fight the same amount of monsters with atma of the kirin (agi+) then fight same again with a high dex atma (omnipotent). Parse resullts. It should be fairly obvious as one should raise your crit rate by at least 10%. Fight strong enough (IT dom op) monsters so that cruor buffs alone aren't enough to cap dDex (or dAGI, whichever it turns out to be).

The only reasonable argument so far for AGI affecting ranged crit rate is "It;s more logical". To that Iw ould reply "Hi, are you new to FFXI? Are you new to SquareEnix?" Logic means jack diddly. This is SE we're talking about.

You may have done a test but if you can't provide data then it is meaningless. I could come and say "I've done thousands of tests with CHR and enmity increase and decrease and noticed that CHR does affect enmity." But if i dont have proof to back pup these claims then they are completely worthless.

Note: I am not saying, nor have ever said "No, that's wrong, ranged crit rate is determined by dex". There is as much proof that it's affected by dex as there is that it's affected by agi: none. No tests with reported data. Untill someone is able to prove it one way or the other, I will be contesting any claims that it is one or the other because "it makes more sense".

People should never state opnions as fact. "There's a lot of AGI on rng gear so it's probably affected by agi" is an opinion and really means "There's a lot of agi gear, so I think it's probably affected by agi." This is reasonable idea, but no where near enough to make a sound conclusion.

I think what he was going for was AGI isn't that hard to find if you are trying to cap crit rate.

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.

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What are the real numbers then?

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Originally Posted by Catsby

I think what he was going for was AGI isn't that hard to find if you are trying to cap crit rate.

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And as I just said, that's irrleevant. That it's easier to get AGI gear does not mean AGI affects crit rate.

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Originally Posted by Rearden

I don't think anyone assumes 80-90 AGI for xp levels mobs at 90, but please, continue making numbers up.

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Concidering a Lv82 colibri has 67 AGI (proven), a job combo that also has 67 AGI at lv82 should have (by mapping the stat increases per level so far) somewhere a bit over 80 AGI at Lv100 and that Colibri are Red Mage which have naturally low AGI, I would say it's pretty fair to assume somewhere around 80-90 AGI for an IT exp mob. But please, continue to debunk the idea without putting any sort of useful thought into it at all. it's pro.

Quoting 67AGI on Colibri to those of us who geared for that as the standard for three years is kind of silly, hence my original post anyway.

Assumed number for XP mobs is 93 AGI, NM's in the 97-100 range.

Assumptions for 95-99cap put NM's at 105-110AGI which is going to make our dDEX builds difficult to maintain under current gear sets unless new stuff becomes available or augments/crit+ gear is also added to supplement this.

Questions.

Interesting to see you think it's higher than 80-90. Your first reply suggested to me that you thought it would be lower, and that my argument was wrong. Being evern higher only further strengthens my point.
To be honest when ever I'm trying to prove a silly statement (such as you should easilly cap crit rate from [AGI or DEX, whichever it is] outside abyssea) I'm always conservative and give the benefit of the doubt, so that there's no room for them to shout that I'm being bias against them.

If people are finding XP mobs to be somewhere around 90-95, then capping dDex (or dAGI, whichever it is) outside abyssea will be even harder, needing 140-145 (And a normal TP set having around 110AGI)