Why Make Jobs useless ?

SMN was good at a lot of events. Just because SMN wasnt needed at every single event, doesnt mean it was useless.

If you were the last getting JA as cor, your group most likely wasn't very good.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Way to shift the blame.

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More like accepting the facts as is. SE makes the game and ultimately calls the shots on what jobs will be most effective at their new events.

Are you going to ignore that Atmas killed off the need for buffers, HP boosts kill off the need for dedicated tanks and damage dealing becomes something anyone can do thanks to cruor support? This was all created by SE and they darn well knew what would happen in a world where anyone can be a god.

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Let's break this down.

6 WHMs...

Way to hyperbole. The point of who you were trying to insult there was that any reasonable combination should be able to manage most if not all circumstances. Honestly... this fact holds true in the game as it stands. It's the elitist mentality to insist that every group needs a war for weapon procs, and ONLY the Warrior can attempt to proc.

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So exactly how would you suggest covering procs given the system SE has presented us with? Take a PLD? Take a DRK? While these jobs can cover procs, WAR is the best option along with NIN given the weaponskills that trigger red. Naturally, these jobs are in highest demand and are what people are going to answer with when someone asks "What jobs do I need to get Razed Ruins off Ironclad?"

It's not elitist, it's common sense. If you have access to a PLD or a WAR, you're going to take the class with the most procs (WAR) and ability to deal damage (WAR). If you don't have a WAR, then you start working your way down the totem pole.

But nevermind my ramblings, all the people shouting in Jeuno for +1 seals/+2 items must be elitists when they ask for WAR NIN BLU BRD BLM. Yes, all of them.

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Again, SE made the system, but it was the Min/Maxers that used it to break people.

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If by break you mean giving people honest answers then yes, min/maxers give it to you straight. No one is outright telling you to not bring certain classes but it'd be dishonest to say those jobs will be crucial if you already have the core jobs covered.

Im not going to delude a DRG into thinking they'll be awesome in Abyssea when players are swimming in damage and the job has few procs.

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Anti-Burn Debate:

Square-Enix (look, I can bold the company name too.) Made adjustments to the game because of the imbalance and public outcry against the flavor of the month mentality in the game.

The players. Made the Arrow Burn, the Manaburn, the TP burn, and warped them all into an exclusive club where if you didn't have X job with Y quality gear, or was Z support class, you were screwed out of the exp and merits.

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And who created this environment? That's right, SE did. They took years to balance 2handers with 1handers, took years to adjust classes that needed adjustment and still haven't even addressed the issues with many classes.

It was never an exclusive club either. If you had the classes, you were often invited to EXP. Burn parties were created by casual and elite alike to combat the harsh EXP requirements needed to level up in an environment where SE wanted to keep people grinding for the sake of grinding.

Don't attempt to paint burns as an elite creation when EVERYONE was using the setup @merits for years.

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But even now people abuse it to try to make exclusive clubs for uber min/maxing (Fell Cleave Parties.) This isn't because of some grand flaw on Square Enix's part. Min/Maxers, on any MMO, by the sheer pratice of being a Min/Maxer, look for ways to exploit the system to gain the most reward with the least effort. Again, how many accounts were banned/suspended for Salvage Duping? Are you going to say it was Square Enix's fault for that too?

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If the min/maxers want it all to themselves, why are so many guides out there created on how to actually build your own Cata/Cleave/Whisker parties/setups?

Furthermore, when did Edge/Cata/Cleave/Whisker come out? Oh right, during the age of Abyssea with the purpose of being used to AOE down weak mobs.

SE knew exactly what they were doing when they released all of those AOE attacks and that was to give anyone the capability of staying in Abyssea alone for whatever reason.

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It's fine if it's your desire to play to the uttermost efficiency. But Min/Maxing crosses the line when it stomps on the casual player base, or even those who simply do not want to jump on the latest bandwagon job because theirs isn't in vogue this patch.

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Yes, I should lie to people and tell them they are all unique snowflakes with infinite potential.

No one is telling you to jump on the bandwagon moreso that certain classes just don't work inside Abyssea. You can solo on NMs on BST but without those procs you're going to be slow to finish anything - and if that works for you, fine. Just don't chastise people for promoting the most ideal setups that lead to success.

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Hayward's argument is that jobs that are not popular should not, on policy be segregated against so heavily. It is a time honored argument that reflects on the quality of the player-base as people, not players. Efficiency should take a second seat to kindness and comradeship. In his opinion both the mechanics of the game, and the average player mentality should encourage it.

In my response to such, I say that the mechanics of the game has not been more kindness friendly ever before, down to the point where it's outright frustrating some players with how they're enforcing the fairness (Voidwatch rewards). Majority of Abyssea content can be low manned or done with a party and that aspect is spreading throughout the majority of the older events too.

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As a former Linkshell leader, my credo was always to cater to my teammates so long as catering to them didn't cost us the ability to win the event. If this meant having someone come out on their not-so-good job, so be it - so long as we could win the event.

I find that people often just aren't honest with themselves when it comes to the state of their class due to the parameters that SE sets up. SE made Abyssea a world where in party play you want procs which lead to cherrypicking the best class for procs and drops. If you don't like that? You can find people willing to let you have fun, make your own groups and insert yourself on X job or simply resign yourself to having a wide variety of jobs to choose from.

At the end of the day, SE calls the shots on what jobs will be needed most. With Voidwatch they've already shifted the ball back to BRD/COR/SMN/PLD/RNG - all jobs that Abyssea shunned.

Its not elitest its greed is all it is. Thats why mnk and a whm duo came about, or mnk whm thf go at the right time of the game day you have all blu procs covered and TH. Not wanting to share, thankfully atma's drop to everyone so again don't want the drops no reason not to be taken.

How does doing things with less people = greed... Frankly I could care less about most of the playerbase and the less I have to interact with them (especially with people who I know are gonna fuck up in some way somehow), the better.

The jobs aren't useless like you say. They can still function. However not as well as other jobs so people perfer not take jobs which preform better and have more use in abyssea. In there in lies your problem. People aren't going to change their attitude toward smn. Would you invite someone that was smn only to do say seal farming when you could have a blm to proc green probably not.

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Originally Posted by Hayward

People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status. All too often, know-it-alls like them, among others, are the reason why people have such a hard time playing jobs they actually enjoy.

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Hey now, BG needs to be around to turn melee SMN threads into a Broadway production.

If you want to play a job you actually enjoy, just do it. Remember that no matter how smart they think they are, they still argued for Salvage exploits.

We didn't bring CORs super often, but when we did the guy liked it because it meant he only needed a JA (and maybe Ranged) cell to be pretty much optimally useful, as far as his role in Salvage goes. It's playing for the team vs. playing for yourself.

ITT: BG is a premier site.

what your talking about is the old "elitist" mentality..and your better off playing your summoner and not getting sucked into that mindset. Are you or aren't you having fun playing summoner? That's the only test in my book. Whether or not you have 100%tricked out summoner, or follow the very cookie cutter formula of any job.
I've been in this game since day one of American release and sure I can follow the forums "suggestions" but I have even more fun playing quirky job combos that people tend to overlook whether they are bad or good.
I'm not going for some award for most clone-playing skill. And trolls don't necessarily stay in the forums they play FFXI as well.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

How does doing things with less people = greed... Frankly I could care less about most of the playerbase and the less I have to interact with them (especially with people who I know are gonna fuck up in some way somehow), the better.

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Would you take a blm and a brd if one of them didnt want seals.

I wouldn't shout for anyone to join but I wouldn't refuse someone asking to join either unless I'm the main healer and too busy to invite/party is full.

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If SE would give smn cure 5 then people would use them to heal.

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This is like "If we give a white mage Firaja we will use them to nuke."
You're saying they should give SMN something they have no skill for and is not even part of the job itself. Cure I-IV comes from the SUBJOB. Tell SE to make cure V level 49, then you might have a point. But cures will not be added to summoner (except as avatar abilities, because that's not directly part of the job.

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People like GreatGuardian & DebbieGibson (kiss it where the sun don't shine if you don't like being called out on your BS) are PRIME examples of why BlueGartr and other such forums (Allakhazam is coming really close, as well) should be stripped of their Premier Site status.

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BlueGartr is NOT a premire site (thank the heavens).

Why don't you log on BG and take a look at the content on the site. You may not agree with the forum guidelines or some of the threads and that's fine, but don't allow it to cloud your vision of the site. Ultimately, most of them want to not only make themselves better, but other players as well. I admit that it was a lot worse there a few years ago, but even then you could still find useful content.

Call me crazy, but saying summoner is the best job in the world isn't a good way to get the job buffed.

Do you think BG poster's ultimate goal is to see SMN and other jobs excluded from most group activities?

Wait, this forming is claiming BG to not be elite? Most people in this forum (and the majority of the playerbase) don't even know you can proc dynamis.

SMN is a great job outside of Abyssea and you should be content with that. There are other jobs besides WHM to play if you want to contribute.

In the meantime, SMN can solo 90% of Abyssea content, so to really be complaining in the first place is a bit narcissistic.