Thief Job Ability Synergy: This is not 2005

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Originally Posted by noodles355

1) Don't tell them you're going to do it.
2) Get a linkshell or make friends with good players who realise that TA both increases damage output and also increases chance to raise the TH level
3) Remind Mnks and Wars that with Counterstance and Retalliation it increases their damage so it's worthwhile to be tanking.
4) Remind them that Trick Attack has the same recast as Accomplice

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1) I think that is what most of us are forced to do. It would be fine if DD's and monsters ever sit still. But they don't, so you'll miss.
2) Trick Attack only increases your damage while making life annoying for them.
3) lol, Good luck with that.
4) Remind them that Trick Attack has the same recast as Collaborator. Which is neither here nor there because Trick Attack generates enmity based on damage and Collaborator steals 25% of that players total enmity. The effectiveness of which depends on a whole slew of things. How much enmity the already player has, whether its the start of the fight or near the end. If you plant a TAWS on the for example at the start, the mob won't even look at you after collaborator.

Also if you are using collaborator just to convince someone to allow you to use trick attack, you cannot use it to save a mage, or a DD that is really in trouble.

I don't know, to me it just doesn't make sense that the solution to the problem of a job ability that gives unwanted enmity should be a second job ability that takes some away. Why not just fix the problem?

If they're stupid enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack, chances are they don't actually know what Collaborator does. So that's irrelevant. This point is only really worthwhile in EXP situations, so saving a mage is fairly moot too.
On NMs, if they are meleeing, they will either be proccing red, blue, or be completely useless and just there for extra (likely not needed) damage. If it's the latter, then if they wont let me trick attack them after explaining myself then I would just kick them. They're not contributing anything worthwhile. Sure, this goes against the point I'm about to make below but it's to make them learn.

For point 2: Increasing your damage increases the killspeed. A Good player knows that the total killspeed is more important than his personal damage. So the point stands: Make better friends or find a better linkshell with people who realise letting you Trick Attack both increases chance for TH proc and increases killspeed.
To be honest, the first point alone should be enough for most people to just suck it up.

You shouldn't be so ready to dismiss point three. The same argument can be used for a Sam, and overwhelm. If You're tanking and they want to get their overwhelm boost then they're gonna have to stand in front of you, so TA them.

You are being far too weak and soft about the whole situation. If they can't do their job properly, get rid of them and get someone who can. And don't try and argue about having to find a replacement and just making do, because everything you will be meleeing/tanking fulltime can be killed with just Thief and !! procs. Anyone who's there who's TA-able is a waste of a party slot anyway.

The enmity really isn't a problem.
Either: Hate will be capped for both parties.
Or: You're hate will be capped and so one melee strike after TAing someone, you will have hate again.

Obviously unless you do it at the start of a fight, but after just one evisceration and some melee rounds, a 1k Trick Attack shouldn't be enough to lose you hate for any remotely significant length of time. The VE of it on it's own is not enough after you've been popping 2-3k WSs and evading monster attacks the way thief does.

There really isn't a problem with the ability. Sometimes the enmity is unwanted. Sometimes the enmity is wanted. Most of the time it's not wanted, enmity is irrelevant anyway because the mob dies so fast, or hate is capped for everyone, and the whm will be able to keep you alive with no worries at all.

Just because you've played with some idiots doesn't mean the ability is bad. I've never had a problem with someone after 1 or 2 attempts. But that's because unlike you who comes complaining on a forum, I do something about it. I tell them to suck it up and do it, and if they don't I get rid of them. In fact I almost never have a problem with anyone doing it at all as the friends I make and the linkshell I'm in consist of good players, not retards.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

You're really overplaying the whole people moving out of the way of trick attack thing.

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This. Even in Garlaige parties back in the day I never had a problem landing Trick Attack. Every party I was in was willing to make a SA/TA lineup and went with it.

Also I don't know any player who willingly wants to avoid a Trick Attack, for any reason, and I can't think of one. In Abyssea I have our BLMs or BRDs for seal parties stand in front of me when I'm solo tanking so I can Trick Attack them constantly for Treasure Hunter, and no one complains.

And as a WAR myself, I want hate on me all the time to maximize damage, for the reasons noodles mentioned too. Losing hate is so easy right now anyway, that it doesn't really require much action on the THF's side in either way. Also, TA+WS is bad in most cases, since I'm guessing you want higher Treasure Hunter as well. And normal Trick Attack damage isn't so high that anyone else can't get it back in no time. Especially if it's a DD you're using it on, chances are their enmity was capped to begin with.

For that matter, the same applied to landing Sneak Attack. It's really not hard in most cases, spinning mobs may screw up your timing, but it still works in most cases, as long as you watch people swing and pay attention.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

For that matter, the same applied to landing Sneak Attack. It's really not hard in most cases, spinning mobs may screw up your timing, but it still works in most cases, as long as you watch people swing and pay attention.

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This. You rarely have more than 2 melees on most NMs to avoid TP feed. When both melees are hate capped, every landed attack swing will gain the mob's attention, so just time your sneak attack to co-incide with their next attack. It's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by noodles355

If they're stupid enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack, chances are they don't actually know what Collaborator does. So that's irrelevant. This point is only really worthwhile in EXP situations, so saving a mage is fairly moot too.

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I disagree that saving mages is a moot point in exp parties, but the real reason that collaborator isn't the solution to that part of the issue is that it will ultimately slow you down. Because collaborator is so dependant on when you use it in the fight (in an exp situation) it means you aren't able to ride your Trick Attack timer if you are using collaborator as a crutch.

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For point 2: Increasing your damage increases the killspeed. A Good player knows that the total killspeed is more important than his personal damage.

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This one I'm lost on. Damage increases kill speed and kill speed is more important than damage?

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So the point stands: Make better friends or find a better linkshell with people who realise letting you Trick Attack both increases chance for TH proc and increases killspeed.
To be honest, the first point alone should be enough for most people to just suck it up.

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This is essentially the point I am trying to make. I find it unreasonable how much is required of other people for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack to work with any level of consistency. Doing your job as a damage dealer is also now their job.

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Everything you will be meleeing/tanking fulltime can be killed with just Thief and !! procs.

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I agree, which is why the THF is tanking most of the time. In this example you give landing sneak attack and trick attack as timers allow goes right out the window.

Even when you can land them in these situations, the job is designed against you being able to stand in front of a monster, evade attacks AND deal damage. Just because we are constantly finding ways around those hoops and land them in situations they were not intended to land does not mean the design isn't flawed.

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There really isn't a problem with the ability. Sometimes the enmity is unwanted. Sometimes the enmity is wanted. Most of the time it's not wanted

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That's interesting. I find that if a fundamental job ability is mostly unwanted/not needed...there is a problem with it.

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Just because you've played with some idiots doesn't mean the ability is bad. I've never had a problem with someone after 1 or 2 attempts. But that's because unlike you who comes complaining on a forum, I do something about it. I tell them to suck it up and do it, and if they don't I get rid of them. In fact I almost never have a problem with anyone doing it at all as the friends I make and the linkshell I'm in consist of good players, not retards.

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Now we are just getting silly. When I created this thread it was not to "complain on a forum." There are a lot of threads on this very page with lots of people "complaining" about these abilities. What I did was try to describe the limitations as best I could and offer a thought out, balanced solution or two.

But since you brought up idiots and retards. Does that mean that idiots and retards don't deserve to play? Some of my very best friends are idiots and retards. I love playing with them. Does that mean as a THF I shouldn't be able to do my job? Or should I have some flexibility with which to do it myself?

Clearly we disagree, but I feel like Thief should have some flexibility to do their own job without depending so much on other players to do it for them.

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Even in Garlaige parties back in the day I never had a problem landing Trick Attack. Every party I was in was willing to make a SA/TA lineup and went with it.

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In garlaige days, SATA was more powerful as a tactic and made sense.

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Also I don't know any player who willingly wants to avoid a Trick Attack, for any reason, and I can't think of one.

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I know lots. I encounter lots. Especially in pickup groups.

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In Abyssea I have our BLMs or BRDs for seal parties stand in front of me when I'm solo tanking so I can Trick Attack them constantly for Treasure Hunter, and no one complains.

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Awesome. Personally I would like not to have to trick attack my duo mage partner to allow me to land it.

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For that matter, the same applied to landing Sneak Attack. It's really not hard in most cases, spinning mobs may screw up your timing, but it still works in most cases

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Awwwwww you....Who's overstating now?:rolleyes:

Edit: I should note that I think we are talking about different things. I am not saying SA and TA are impossible to land sometimes. You are saying you can make them work when the opportunity arises. I am saying the opoortunities to use them are unreasonably limited.

I feel that 60 second timer is limit enough, and that all the other hoops you need to jump through create situations where you are waiting for the mob to turn, waiting for other people, holding TP, waiting for your !! people to line up...all limiting your performance potential. It limits your overal potential to increase TH level, it limits your damage, it limits your ability to take that hate from those hits for yourself when tanking.

Having all those limitations for a job's fundamental, core abilities seems unreasonable to me. Especially since the payoff is nowhere near what it was in the garlaige days.

Whereas I believe that your view of the game is fundamentally wrong. This is a matter of opinion, and is pointless arguing about. What you're asking for is to make songs and buffs unlimited range, to cater to the needs of people who run from them.

This game is a cooperative effort, many jobs depend on the collaboration of several people to work properly. The more efficient the people, the more efficient the gameplay. It's a matter of moderation. If a job ability is virtually unusable because it needs extreme cooperative effort of several people to be pulled off, that would probably need revising. This on the other hand works fairly well as it is and I don't see a need to upgrade it in any way. THF especially is a job that relies on party cooperation, and I don't see a need to remove that. You seem to want it to work perfectly, every 60 seconds flat. Why even have a job ability, just let the mob take a flat 1000 damage for every 60s the THF is on its hate list.

Simply put, in my opinion it works very well as it is and I don't see a need to improve it. The limitations placed on it add some skill into the equation, but the same applies to almost every ability in the game, and again, I think that's how it should be.

Which is cool. We disagree. I respect that oppinion.

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Originally Posted by Arcon

THF especially is a job that relies on party cooperation, and I don't see a need to remove that.

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I suggested the tweaks I did, not to remove party cooperation from the job. I just don't want to be so limited in the abscence of that party cooperation. More so, a balance between the two that would offer some flexibility in both situations.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

I disagree that saving mages is a moot point in exp parties, but the real reason that collaborator isn't the solution to that part of the issue is that it will ultimately slow you down. Because collaborator is so dependant on when you use it in the fight (in an exp situation) it means you aren't able to ride your Trick Attack timer if you are using collaborator as a crutch.

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Collaborator is irrelevant in Exp parties, as is using it to "save the mage". You know why? Because mobs die in under 30-20 seconds. With such high crit rate and low delay, one attack round will pull hate off a mage. Mobs usually die after 2-3 WS. Sometimes they get OHKO from 90. Mages, even with crap merit abyssites will still have 1000-1500ish HP, even if they do take a few hits, there is close to zero possibility of them dying.

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This one I'm lost on. Damage increases kill speed and kill speed is more important than his damage?

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I thought it would be fairly simple: By forcing you to miss Trick Attack, he is lowering your damage output and ultimately how fast you kill them mob. If you trick attack him chances are it wont lower his damage output and wont slow down the speed you kill them mob. Infact, if it's a War or Mnk, it will actually increase their damage output by letting them get some counter-attacks in and again increase killspeed. If he is a good DD then he will be hate capped, will be co-tanking with you and the enmity transfer is irrelevant. If he is a bad DD, then you will get hate back off him immidiately anyway, and the chances are the damage he stopped to put up seigan or utsusemi again won't have offset your Trick Attack damage.

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This is essentially the point I am trying to make. I find it unreasonable how much is required of other people for Sneak Attack and Trick Attack to work with any level of consistency. Doing your job as a damage dealer is also now their job.

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You are really overplaying how much "work" they have to do. On anything that matters, the melee tends to stand still (unless the mob has moved). He doesn't have to do anything for you to land your trick attack. You do the positioning yourself. All that's required of him is to stand still, which to be honest most people do do.

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I agree, which is why the THF is tanking most of the time. In this example you give landing sneak attack and trick attack as timers allow goes right out the window.

Even when you can land them in these situations, the job is designed against you being able to stand in front of a monster, evade attacks AND deal damage. Just because we are constantly finding ways around those hoops and land them in situations they were not intended to land does not mean the design isn't flawed.

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It's called a sacrifice. You sacrifice some of your damage output to increase overall efficiency in lowman groups. In this case, being efficient is only having the Thf and !! proccers, as it means more drops for everyone and less NMs to be farmed. Can you not think of any other job that has to sacrifice their damage to be the most efficient?

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That's interesting. I find that if a fundamental job ability is mostly unwanted/not needed...there is a problem with it.

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You misunderstand. The point is not that it's unwanted/needed most of the time. It's that it is wanted/needed some of the time. And because it's needed some of the time, that is reason enough to not remove the enmity properties from it.

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Now we are just getting silly. When I created this thread it was not to "complain on a forum." There are a lot of threads on this very page with lots of people "complaining" about these abilities. What I did was try to describe the limitations as best I could and offer a thought out, balanced solution or two.

But since you brought up idiots and retards. Does that mean that idiots and retards don't deserve to play? Some of my very best friends are idiots and retards. I love playing with them. Does that mean as a THF I shouldn't be able to do my job? Or should I have some flexibility with which to do it myself?

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To each their own. If you want to play with shit players be my guest but dont cry when you cant play your job properly. Idiots and retards can do what the heck they want, but they can do it outside of my party. Just because you have low standards and/or don't care who you play with doesn't mean there is a problem with your job.

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Originally Posted by Nebo

Awwwwww you....Who's overstating now?:rolleyes:

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Well it's certainly not him. I explained how to SA a spinning mob earlier. But I'll state it again:
On anything that matters you wont have many melees. 2 or 3 Max. When you are hate capped, each action will spin the mob to that player. Line up opposite the player, time your Sneak Attack so the other player gets an attack round off (and subsequently pulls hate) before you land the Sneak Attack. It wont work every time as sometimes the other melee will get physically hit, which lowers enmity and may spin the mob back to you, but he stated it works most of the time. And that is true.