The allowed distance between BST and pet for moves is ridiculous low now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyarlko

No, that is not likely in any way. Reducing Ready charges would also require reworking many jugs, and extra work tends to pull the "that would cost a version update" response they've been using recently. If they required a downside, then it would likely be a direct nerf to ready move damage. I'm pretty sure that they don't want to do that since if they felt that damage output was actually out of whack, they would have done that instead of the JA range nerf. We may have shorter Ready recast than SMN BPs, but over time (even just 3-5min,) SMN actually outpaces us in comparable gear. (It's been like this even before the nerf btw.) At this point, nearly every other job has caught up to BST in damage output anyways, so any sort of damage nerf would be extremely uncalled for anyway.

I believe that they should simply increase the range slightly from the current ~6' to 9' or 10', with built-in adjustments to ensure racial parity. We don't really NEED a full reversion, but the current state simply sucks, so I'm willing to compromise. ^^

---

Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

Nyarlko explained their meaning pretty clearly and logically, but if you really don't understand, they're saying if they adjusted max charges/charge costs it would require a lot of work and changes, however they could adjust recast only, but again, as Nyarlko stated, that would seem silly in that Bst's damage isn't what it was, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Songen

Not likely in anyway? what do you mean? considering it wouldn't be the first time they readjusted the timers for bst, i don't see how its not a possibility, not to mention the ready ability is a ability. they already mentioned they don't want to touch pet abilitys so as a balance formula, seems a likely addition they'd do if you want a distance ability

---

"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyarlko

"Reducing the maximum capacity" is simply not going to happen. As I said, that would require reworking all jug pets w/ 3x charge abilities and that would push it into the "too much work to bother with" category. And as far as I know, recast time has not been touched since being added, but wasn't around at that time so can't say for sure. Regardless, even with the current minimum recast of 10sec per charge, just about any high-end geared DD should be able to outperform us over time when excluding SPs. Last I checked, pets are pretty much capped to ~30k max per ready move, and I know DDs who can do more dmg per WS plus build TP faster than 10sec. Heck, one of the CORs in my ls just hit 3-shot (1-shot w/ Triple Shot proc).

In other words, BST is far from being top of the charts already and I sincerely doubt that they would do another major playstyle nerf in order to recover slightly from the last one.

---

i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Songen

i was around for when ready was not a ability, and while i didn't take it to lvl 75, i did level it a fair ways up solo and in partys, i soloed major NMs on bst in places like phomina aquaducts,sacrarium and pso,Xja, beastmaster was one of my first jobs (Literally, since it was my first job i unlocked not because it seemed easy at the time to unlock but it seemed fun to beable to charm pets).i was also one of the first bsts to test the screwed up charm system after ilvl was implemented, when band wagon bst started in adoulin my bst was already half ready, while my bst isn't 100% gear atm since i'v been working on my over all job set, i stilll have a fair share still contributing towards it working well ~After all i said what i am saying is, don't think i don't know beastmaster, i may not be the best but i have seen the mechanics better than some of the best~

and as for them having to adjust every pet ability for 1 job ability, i believe you are the one being delusional in terms of encoding. ready ability is encoded for itself and is simply activation switch for the pet abilitys, the pet abilitys remain the same (All stats are attached to the pet ability, not the ready ability, all enhancements bound to the ready ability thru job points etc enhances either before or after the pet ability is activated and this isn't a effect bound to the ready ability recast), if i said all pet pet abilitys needed a damage/acc/potency/etc increase/decrease then yes, its a massive amount of work since each pet ability's value is different, however, when you select ready (Which is its own ability in the encoding) it simply directs another pet ability to activate or not and attaches a enhancement or not (Which is already encoded and wouldn't need to be adjusted) (The mechanics of each pet ability is its own, just as the ready ability is its own).

---

Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Precisely how would you expect 3-charge abilities to be usable if number of charges were reduced below the current three? :3

It's unlikely that values such as the ready charge cost is programmed in as part of the Ready JA itself. (It's also always risky to argue anything on the basis of unknown programming/code. It's not like any of the server code can be examined by us.) Doing so would mean that the JA itself would have to be altered each and every time they added a jug, and that would fall under the category of dangerous/easily-broken code. I am fully aware that we're dealing with 15 year old mountain of stratified spaghetti, but any professional programmer would immediately recognize the risks and inherent increased difficulty in maintaining and updating that type of code and find another option. All of that means that any adjustment to Ready charge quantity would require rebuilding every jug that has a 3-charge ability. I'm pretty sure that, from the devs' recent statements, something like this would fall under the "too much work, cost an update" response they've been using.

Increasing the recast timer would be a significant damage nerf, which BST definitely does NOT need. We're already middle-of-the-pack at the highest end, what would be a possible justification to drop us lower? A mere 5sec increase would result in a 33% damage loss. (10sec charges = 6x per minute, 15sec charges = 4x per minute. Before anyone argues that value.) Even a single second would result in ~9% lost. This is absolutely NOT a valid "knob" to turn for adjustments.

I am honestly rather surprised how hard you are defending a potential nerf in a thread asking for at least partially undoing the BST JA range nerf of '15. ^^;; I could somewhat understand expecting a balancing nerf to accompany it if everyone here were calling for a full reversal (which I don't think that anyone has so far,) but there should be no legitimate balance concerns over a partial reversal that increases the range only to the point where we can actually do what the devs want us to do and melee alongside our pets.

---

If you are asking if i want to have bst nerfed, as a 11year bst vetern, THE ANSWER IS NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't F--king touch it, and anyone of you F*** heads (And that includes you nyariko for thinking it) who are trying to nerf it further are total Sh*t heads for even thinking of thinking it.

Now then, if you payed attention to post in question that i wrote

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Songen

one main issue is, if they increase the distance, theres a high likely hood that they'll increase the recast of charges along with reducing the maximum capacity much like they did with cor's quick draw

---

You would have noticed i was explaining that since its already nerfed from what it was before, in order to unnerf it they would have to come to what SE refers to a balance (And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance

I WAS defending is the fact you were saying (Worded in such a way that you were saying) that is impossible to actually change the recast timer and quantity for the ready ability with the current dev team size. it is not impossible even with the current team, its patch is probably quite simple and you don't need to be a programing genious to see it since you change the max/minimum values of certain numbers for the ready ability directly. it requires as much work as most other abilitys since ready is mainly a activation key for pet abilitys (It unlocks the door, it is not THE door)

I honestly would prefer a longer distance to beable to use ready, not only that, i want charm to work efficiently again, and i want sic to actually do something useful and not have such a long recast, and i want my pets to actually have magic dmg rather than some quint of p#ss that comes would as magic dmg, and i want my pets enfeeble magic to actually land, however thats another story

Fix the problem, i don't mind, However keep in mind tho.
FOR GODS SAKE DON'T F##k IT UP in the process,
plz, as a vet bst and as someone who doesn't want the job to die in the process because of people being unable to adapt

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

Staying out of the logic of why the adjustment happened to begin with, I'd say the master simply being in melee range should be enough. To avoid the "Out of Range" aspect if the pet is behind you or whatever, just force a quick move and possibly implement a bit of wiggle room for their skill ranges in the event the mob does move (or is forced to do so by the pet moving in range).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nyarlko

Songen, you need to chill. :x There is no need for personal attacks or expletives, especially since we should be on basically the same "Fix BST" team. ^^;;

I am in no way in support of any further nerf of any kind to BST. None of my posts here, or anywhere else, have ever been in support of nerfs. I don't think that anyone else in this thread is either, other than how you alone appear to be demanding a "balance" nerf in order to get what we want.

My stance is that if the increase was on the minor side (to 9'-10') then there would be absolutely no need for any downside to be included. I get that they don't want us way <Over there.> so a full restoration is pretty clearly out of the question at this point. I could kinda understand if there was a downside/cost built-in to a proposed full-restore to JA range, but even then, I would argue against it. Nerfs are bad and should only be used similar to bug fixes.

The only dev team related issue that I brought up is that they have been replying to some suggestions recently in the basic form of "Nope. That would take as much work as # monthly updates, so we have no plans..." I don't know myself (since I am not working on the dev team) whether that is due to lack of staff/man-hours, complexity of coding involved, or lack of interest on their part, but it doesn't really matter "why". The general impression I've gotten from the devs recently is that if something new would require a lot of work to accomplish, it's just not gonna happen at this point.

Your idea that they would target recast or number of charges is simply not viable for the reasons I've already explained. Going after number of charges would result in lots of extra work to change every jug pet with a 3-charge move, and recast increases would be massive nerfs to damage output. Both of your "solutions" would create much bigger problems than the current annoying short-range state.

Also, unless you have direct access to the source code and fully KNOW precisely how it operates, it's not a good idea to insist that the coding works a certain way when we players have no way to verify one way or the other. When I do, I try to keep it within the realm of what's logically the best solution, and try to avoid absolute statements on stuff that isn't player testable/verifiable. Feel free to call me out if/when I fail to do so. XD

BTW, my BST is job master, endgame geared and I still enjoy the job even with the painfully small JA range. ^^;; However, I think that BST may be the only job that has actual gameplay mechanics that result in racial inequalities. A small increase to our JA range which includes racial modifiers to force player model size parity would essentially be a welcome BUG FIX and far from something that should require nerf-strings attached. A Galka at max range's JA will go off, while a Tarutaru standing in the same spot will not. That needs to be fixed and without any strings attached.

---

in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Songen

(And odviously since they nerfed bst by reducing the distance to use the ability, they would likely try to balance it in their own crazy way as they always do), A likely hood (not that it would actually happen as i have stated) is they would nerf either the max charges or the recast value or perhaps both altogether in w/e sick perception is their sence of balance

---

I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Songen

in one final ditch attenpt i will try and say it again,
All i have said so far has been a caution to everyone that SE team size has the capability to alter code which already exists in its entirety atm where you have been constantly staying its impossible due to your already stated reasons. this statement doesn't mean i support nerfing bst, its a fact that must be kept in mind is all.

How is it you (Nyariko) keep ending up with the same conclusion that i offered anything in terms of support for nerfing?, nor how my cautioning people ment i was saying that what i was saying is the only option, as my last post clearly stats I am offering a CAUTION in terms that adjusting it has a likelihood of getting something else nerfed. This in no ways says i support nerfing bst to get the distance problem fixed, its advice that in everyones suggestions keep in mind the potentual dmg that may arise.

I could not for the life of me figure out how you keep coming to the same stupid conclusion that i support nerfing bst, insulting me continuously with that fact until i got as pissed off as i did before,since all I have been talking is the exact opposite to nerfing bst right from my first post on this thread, as such i am deaming it that you, Nyariko are trolling. I will no longer talk on this matter of SEs capability and hope everyone stays focused on trying to find a PROPER solution instead of being absent minded on the matter at hand.

---

I am not trolling in any way, shape, or form. I actually thought we were having a decent discussion about the matter. ^^;; Before this became a two-man debate though, no one else asked for a single thing that would require any sort of balance nerf in order to allow and you were the only one who brought that up. No insults were intended, no need to be offended.

Correcting the player model size difference should be done regardless of any other adjustment. It would be fantastic if we could get a small range increase to at least allow for the 90' formation as others here have asked for. IF people here were demanding a full restoration, then I would agree with your stance that something else would probably have to take a hit in order to get the adjustment. That's not what anyone here is asking for though so there is no justification to insist that one would be necessary.

I still believe that altering Ready recast or charge limit would be a much larger undertaking than you are assuming it to be coding-wise, and even if not, as I already stated, adjustments to either of those things would result in massive game-breaking damage nerfs and likely to drop BST down to MNK's current viability or lower. ><;; (Let's all hope/post that MNK gets fixed btw. They need everyone's support.)

Personally, I've always had the feeling that the devs were OK with BST's damage potential, which is why they nerfed the range to silence the complainers instead of doing something that would actually change damage output directly. It did accomplish their goal in this case (fewer complaints about BST being OP) by increasing the work required for gameplay which chased off most bandwagoners, but those complaints are far from valid at this point due to content/gear progression since then bringing nearly everyone else's performance up, so fixing the bugs introduced by the nerf should no longer be out of the question. Bugfixes don't normally come with strings attached.... unless it's GEO related. XD