Nerf SMN

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Originally Posted by Songen

Actually its more make every job a playable job in endgame instead of of a select few, however instead of weaking currently strengthen jobs, bring the rest upto par with those who already are at the top of the leader board

People only complain "Why is that job the only good job and mine is so weak? why can't you nerf that job instead", what nyariko and myself and alot of others too wish to say is more like "That job is really strong and used so much in endgame because other jobs don't fit the par, so can we adjust other jobs so we have more of a choice in our tactics for game content"

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With their limited developers, they are NOT going to buff every other job over nerfing just one. Besides, people will FOREVER pick a safe job that you can stay out of danger with than any other no matter how strong that job may be.

Hence the BST nerf only affected the safety of the job (albeit set way too low), the same thing that will eventually be done to SMN.

The funny thing about SMN in particular is that it really hasn't changed much at all in the past couple years from an outsider's perspective. One of the first Escha-Ru'aun kills I was present for, I got to witness a single dedicated and well geared SMN kill a T2 in less than 30sec (using both 1hr SP abilities.) I knew that was something that was mathematically impossible with my BST, but it wasn't really upsetting to me, it was exciting to watch a job that I remembered as a high MP /whm utterly obliterate something that I'd had trouble downing. XD
(A couple weeks later, BST got beat down with the nerfbat, which still confuses me since what was done did not address the complaints about damage output, and my recent experience w/ SMN told me that SMN > BST as far as dmg output goes...)

So, SMN has been able to do exactly what the OP is complaining about now for a bare minimum of two years.. SMNburns are not a new thing either... The reason they've become the go-to EZmode/FOM setup recently was due to the recent GEO bugfix (and certain mobs gaining an increased resistance vs BLM's "Death",) shaking things up and making certain other strats (like Death spam) more difficult, not because SMN got some sort of massive buff.

Hmm.. A recent bugfix made things harder to complete for the majority of jobs.. Sounds to me like a buff to that majority of jobs would be what is called for here, rather than a nerf to SMN which only maintained it's own status quo. <,<;; It makes zero sense why anyone wishes to call for dragging down others to the lesser common denominator IMO. Unless the OP is asking for everyone to be brought down to MNK's level, alongside another ilvl world mob nerf-fest, in order to reduce the overall difficulty of the entire game, then the most rational choice would be to buff everyone back up to equal effect performance as before.

The same thing won't be done to SMN. They recently even *boosted* the distance that SMN could use BP moves. The reason for nerfing BST this way was mostly because Matsui wanted BSTs to fight alongside their pets (they have dd gear and can wear a lot of heavy armor after all, so they can take a few hits. Not so with SMN). It still takes a top-end geared mythic master SMN to do the numbers people keep reporting, and usually several are needed to take down a boss. It's not the same situation as before, when bandwagon BSTs could solo NMs that would otherwise flatten parties. I don't know if the devs will ever bother to nerf SMN, but if they do, it won't be the same way they nerfed BST.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

With their limited developers, they are NOT going to buff every other job over nerfing just one. Besides, people will FOREVER pick a safe job that you can stay out of danger with than any other no matter how strong that job may be.

Hence the BST nerf only affected the safety of the job (albeit set way too low), the same thing that will eventually be done to SMN.

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The stated intention behind the BST JA range nerf was that the devs wanted us to be meleeing alongside our pets... -_-;;; Since that is nowhere near the case w/ SMN, I sincerely doubt any sort of range nerf will be implemented. They also just nerfed the world (which is functionally a buff to players) so buffing survivability for everyone is not an impossibility.

Oh a SMN nerf is definitely coming though I think it'll be to certain avatar blood pacts instead of a distance nerf. The "SMN SPAM!!" is only when using Astral Conduit and a handful of avatar blood pacts that can do crazy stupid numbers.

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Originally Posted by Jakuk

Besides, people will FOREVER pick a safe job that you can stay out of danger with than any other no matter how strong that job may be.

Hence the BST nerf only affected the safety of the job (albeit set way too low), the same thing that will eventually be done to SMN.

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Which still won't change the problem overall. SMN's major offset, is that it lacks the AoEs that BST had, THAT'S the real reason BST got nerfed. Still, the nerf to BST was too extreme, because it doesn't have the Job Traits that other DD jobs do. As it levels it gains lots of traits that won't be used at all, and there's nothing to fill in for the close distance now. It's not like SMN where the sole focus is the pet, or PUP where the Pets can be customized to fit the need. The over all problem is and will always be the NMs and how they were done with this whole iLevel thing

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Originally Posted by saevel

Oh a SMN nerf is definitely coming though I think it'll be to certain avatar blood pacts instead of a distance nerf. The "SMN SPAM!!" is only when using Astral Conduit and a handful of avatar blood pacts that can do crazy stupid numbers.

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I doubt the Blood Pacts will be changed, but if anything it will be to the AC JP category. Still, People only see these high numbers, and don't equate the gear or other factors that go into making them.

My vote is still to buff other jobs rather than to bring others down.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

My vote is still to buff other jobs rather than to bring others down.

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I ultimately agree, but it won't happen.

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Originally Posted by Zeargi

My vote is still to buff other jobs rather than to bring others down.

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So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that, what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

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Originally Posted by saevel

So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

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There are already jobs that can do that kind of damage, and you've also have no grasp of SMN at all. 3-4s, hardly. SMN BP timer is 21 maybe 20 seconds. SAM, BLU, DRG, and DRK can all do far greater spike DMG than SMN can. Hell, even RNG and COR can do that kind of DMG while staying out of range of things. My LS was doing T2 Escha NMs, and every single fight the BLU and the DRK out did my DMG dealing 270,000+ DMG and that was without the requirement of using a 1hr ability like SMN has to.

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Originally Posted by saevel

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that

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It had everything to do with those AoE moves. How many of those Bandwagon BST used anything except that Grasshopper? And SMN hasn't changed with keeping it's distance from stuff. It's been like that since the job was introduced. The Trial Size Avatar fights, that was the whole mechanic. Use Carbuncle, run away, resummon, wait for engagement, and run some more, repeat. BLM and SMN are tied for having the worst DEF in the game. So I find it hard to believe, you would ask a BLM to hump a mob and try to cast while still functioning properly.

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Originally Posted by saevel

what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

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And that isn't SMNs fault. How many WHMs used to charge for raises in Valkurm Dunes or to use a Teleport Spell? How many LS charged for Dynamis/Sea/Sky Clears? How many PLDs have charged to be a tank for a fight? How many WARs charged for Cleaving in Abyssea? That is a community that is pure lazy and refused to help others.

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Originally Posted by saevel

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

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SMN Burns are nothing new. Promy Fight back when it was a capped thing, People took 2-3 SMNs to Astral Flow the clears - claiming it had to be done that way. Waking the Beast (Carbuncle Prime) was done almost completely with an alliance of SMNs. But here you're saying that how dare these people take someone that has spent the time to MASTER a job to content. That is completely ludicrous that you're saying that at all. And what about those SMNs, have you taken the time to check what gear they have? A Nirvana, A Full Apogee set, a Helios Set, or many other vast array of pieces that are needed? People that don't understand and play a job, are equally bias. They're anger because X job isn't being taken, or Y job does things better. We as a community decide how the game is played and we can be the think tank to change things so that every job has an equal chance, but these witch hunts need to stop already.

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Originally Posted by saevel

So you want everyone to be doing 50K damage every 3~4 seconds while standing safely out of range? Guess we gotta give the NM's 10M HP to deal with that new power creep, and then raise the damage cap from 99K to 999K so the <new broke job> can deal 600K per attack and start the cycle all over again.

No SE needs to nerf SMN damage output by about 25%, especially under AC. It's the exact same problem BST had, doing amazing damage while being 100% safe. BST's brokenness had absolutely nothing to do with AoE's, nobody of any consequence cares about that, what they care about is how few people they can bring to a fight and still clear it in order to maximize the profits they make from charging others for the clear.

To anyone taking advantage of a broken mechanic everything looks perfectly normal, it's just confirmation bias. From a systemic point of view it's easy to spot broken mechanics by the sudden imbalance they create in the metagame. When everything is "Bubbly Bernie <Do You Need It> master SMN <Can I Have It>" then there is a problem. When the hardest NM's in the game can be consistently killed in under 60s by a group of SMN's, then there is a problem. When people decide that taking a group of SMN's makes everything magically snore fest easy to do, then there is a problem. Just a reiteration of the same issue there was with BST's and that resulted in a nerf, even while the users exploiting the BST mechanic was swearing up and down there will never be a nerf and the game was perfectly balanced. So yeah there is a nerf coming, I just hope it's not too hard of one cause I like a balanced diverse meta.

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you seem to think we're trying to buff all jobs to 50k dmg? most are dealing 3-7k dmg even at 3000% tp(its these jobs were trying to bring forwards) , its rare to find a DD that can deal 50K consistantly every WS, infact, the average high dmg DD only deals about 15-35k, with the stronger spike dmg ones dealing 35-45K (not consistantly) (Thats at 3000% tp only, must have w/e AM on, have W/E rolls/abilitys on,so that means they need to lose 2 WSs in between which means even less dmg) 40-45k WSs (Since you need to build to 3000%tp)are only useful with SC style of partys, outside of that its more worth to just the WS when its ready.