I don't recall, but I think BST could stand farther away. I know they could stand a little farther back because they had to be in range of pet, not the enemy. I just can't recall just how far Readies could be used from (last time I played BST was aby besides a few weeks of renewed interest--something to gain-exp on).Quote:
Originally Posted by Urmom
Til the recent changes, one of the problems I had with balance is that SCH and BLMs could idle -50% DT and bust out megaton-sized nukes by flipping gear for a second. Melee were frequently struggling to stand near the boss and hit the boss. The AGI changes have helped that some.
RNG and COR weren't quite so priveleged. You had to meet the same acc demands as melee (easier for RNG) and wanted useful traits like Store TP.
BLU Balance
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10-20-2016, 06:37 AMOmnysValefor
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10-20-2016, 05:46 PMTidis
For me the main difference between BST and BLU is that it wasn't just the top ones soloing what is intended to be party content, even your moderately geared BST was clearing these fights. I have no problem with someone being able to solo content they really shouldn't be able to as long as they are the exceptional cases, not the norm. But as SE have shown they are very bad at nerfing jobs and nearly always take it too far on the nerf side.
Your average BLU isn't soloing VD content, your very well geared, spent millions to upgrade BLUs are doing it. -
10-21-2016, 01:15 AMFae
I had someone in my LS come back after 4 months away and solo a VD avatar on BLU, who has no HQ abjurations and no RMEA. While it wasn't as good a clear time as the really pumped up BLU, I don't think it's true to say only amazingly geared BLU can do it. It also does not at all address all the other reasons when I /sea all BLU it is now the most played job a lot of hours of the day and growing every day. Lets do a small census right now to prove the point doing a search for 99 level jobs:
86 BLU
47 THF
33 BST
27 NIN
26 PLD
25 GEO
22 RDM
22 BLM
21 SCH
19 WAR
19 COR
15 WHM
14 MNK
12 DNC
10 BRD
9 RUN
7 SAM
6 PUP
6 DRK
5 SMN
4 DRG
4 RNG
Now while this data shouldn't be regarded as law, it is indicative. I'd expect more DDs than support, healer and tanks on at any time for example, and I'd expect jobs that are more helpful at lower levels to be more popular (such as THF for farming dynamis, or bst for farming salvage) and jobs that are one of the core 6 jobs to also be more popular as they've been around the longest and given when you start without questing. Some of this could perhaps be mitigated by also searching for people that are rank 10 but, I think this data is good enough and tends to hold true almost all hours of the day, and BLU keeps pulling further and further ahead.
In my LS right now, we have 4 people working on almace and 3 ppl not long ago gave up long career jobs to instead put those aside for many months now and work on BLU. This is a trend that was true for a long time now. Any way you look at it (unless you're in denial) BLU is bandwagoing, and any player that is picking up BLU or chose to play BLU can give you a very long list of those reasons if they are being honest. Those reasons need to be more balanced with what other jobs can offer to remain a healthy balanced game. As stated in the OP, buffing every other DD in the game is not an answer it will make the challenging content we have left easier, and it is much, much, much harder to accurately adjust 11+ jobs than it is to balance one that is causing an issue. It is not good for FFXI in any form to have one job become so favored, even if you do not agree with the balance statements, which I think are spot on. -
10-21-2016, 03:28 AMDiavolo
We are more to blame for BLU's popularity than the development team is. We are the ones coming to the forums complaining that BLU is too powerful. We are the ones posting videos of BLU clearing most content without also presenting alternatives. What do you think the new/casual/returning players see when they log onto these forums to get an idea of how to play the game? Reap what you sow... and we've sown a field full of BLU talk/videos.
Change the discussion, change the game. -
10-21-2016, 05:01 AMFae
Name me one other job that can solo VD avatar, merit in 10 mins due to being one of the best cleavers in the game, self haste cap as DD so needs two less trusts to function well, and out survive all but dedicated tanks while doing top end DPS. It has everything to do with the tools and how strong they are, people that know the game very well are changing to BLU because they realize it is stronger and makes the game easier for them, people follow their lead because they see the results of that. It isn't bandwagoned because of hollow arguments like you are making, and it isn't requested to constantly be nerfed by tons of people because of that either. It is bandwagoning and called for a nerf because it has too much power in one place. Have a magic spell load out for cleaving, have a DD set and be very survivable, self spam CDC for light. This also creates problems that BLU players will not let other DD join, because they know other DD require more buffs. It is easier to just get 2 BLU to DD and then benefit from more buffs from the support that aid damage and have greater flexibility in setups. Due to their survival even on t4 reisenjima mobs you can even cut out dedicated tanks. The issue isn't that other jobs can't clear the same content, with exception to soloing VD avatars in so fast of a speed (3-4 mins isn't uncommon) it is that they can do everything easier which gets more people to play it. Personally, I'm sick of seeing BLU everywhere, this game has 22 jobs, they should be more balanced.
There are great DRK, SMN, and pretty much every other job videos out there. People don't pick BLU because of the conversation and it's not just happenstance we are having this conversation, we're having this conversation because except for BLU players who wish to deny this which for any nerf there are always deniers and almost all of them play the job being nerfed, most everyone else recognizes it is a problem. BLU can't shave 20 minutes off every set of merit bcnm fights because the player is more skilled, they do it because their AoE is ridiculous. They don't solo VD avatar because all BLU players are more skilled than people that play other jobs, they do it because their self capping haste, damage + survival stacks it far into their favor. They don't push out other DD jobs in setups because all BLU are just so much more friendly and good of players, or because of youtube videos or a lack of skilled players on other jobs, they do it because they make fights easier if they do. They don't bandwagon because of anything other than they make the game easier for you if you play BLU, it is the path of least resistance to change jobs to BLU rather than try to play 3-4 other jobs that may or may not perform at the same level as BLU in the same content. BLU is an objectively easier choice to make to play. That isn't why DRK mains that played DRK for 12 years gave up their job to play BLU or why when people are deciding what job to DD as they pick BLU or why more and more play BLU every day. It is a balance issue and a nerf is absolutely necessary to correct this.
Even before mighty guard and the new aoe spells were added, BLU was bandwagoning, now it's just worse than ever. If you play BLU you don't need haste support, a cleaving job, a defensive survivable DD, a DD that does great damage, and even in a lot of cases an enfeebler (using gravity on this month's ambuscade frog for example), because BLU does all those things at once and most of them better than alternative options. Their survivability alone breaks many fight mechanics, and they don't even pay for it with lesser damage. When BLU is in a full DD set and their normal DD spell loadout tanking ilvl 150 mobs you're going to tell me the conversation has to change... BLU has to change or the game will be 90% BLU players because as it stands it is obviously the best choice. -
10-21-2016, 04:59 PMGwydion
I think what compounds the problem is the Job Point gifts for BLU, compared to other jobs, right?
I think a BLU is fine and every other job needs some re-work. -
10-21-2016, 05:37 PMDiavoloSCH soloing Shiva on Very Difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fae
RDM soloing Garuda on very Difficult.
SCH soloing Tenzen on Very Difficult.
SCH soloing Ark Angel Elvaan on Very Difficult.
SCH soloing Ark Angel Tarutaru on Very Difficult.
BST soloing Garuda on Very Difficult.
SCH soloing Sinister Reign.
And that was found in a very quick Youtube search, there are plenty more examples of jobs other than BLU soloing some of the more challenging content in FFXI.
PLD easily soloing merits/100 JP/hour.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fae
You just proved my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fae
These discussions, in addition to being frequent here and elsewhere, too often paint BLU as being god-like, so is it any wonder a greater number of players are playing the job? It's a jack of all trades and always has been. Yes, it's capable of doing just about anything, but your claims are ridiculous. BLU is by no means an ideal tank for Reisenjima T4s.
How much time have you invested in the job? -
10-21-2016, 07:26 PMJakukBST got nerfed for the reason of their soloing despite it always being a solo job from day one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
It's not really that no job can do it, but no job can do it without taking a hit in one method, ex. much longer kill time, whereas BLU can do it while losing out on literally nothing, same kill speed, same safety etc....
Though personally, my only problem with BLU is the fact they can cap Magic Haste yet are a DD, remove Haste from Mighty Guard and I'd be fine with it. -
10-21-2016, 09:14 PMFaeYou clearly missed that the sentences parts you were quoting were a conjunction, combined by the word and, rather than or (or chose to, most likley). My own posts have mentioned other jobs can solo VD avatar, but BLU does it much quicker. So I have to assume that most of your reply is ignoring most of what I said because you don't want it to be true because you're actively trying to change what I say rather than making points on what I did say (such as saying BLU is ideal tank, which isn't something I said but since you brought it up, ya having one more party slot because BLU can effectively tank them is pretty ideal).Quote:
Originally Posted by Diavolo
Lets paint a very accurate picture. The cases/boxes/parcels from BCNMs that always drop 2 in personal and 2 in the treasure pool on VD battlefields average as near as I can tell, as 15.75 per container. Even if I am off with that to a degree, it will hold true that BLU gets more:
BLU has great cleave, so remerit time is ~10 mins
BLU can solo VD avatar in sub 3 mins, we'll list it as 3mins
Rezone time is same for everyone but we'll say 1.5 mins.
You can do 7 runs.
Merit time= 10 mins
Fight time= 21 mins
Rezone time= 10.5 mins
From this a solo player gets 4*15.75 which sell for about 10k each, 7 times. So about 4.4mil in about 41.5 mins.
Compare this to BST
BST has great cleave, so remerit time is ~10 mins
BST can solo VD avatar but it's not consistent and takes 10 mins per fight
Rezone time = 10.5 mins
So BST would do the same BLU can do in 90.5 mins, over double the time, and thats assuming they win every time and have ways to reset 1 hour each time so that is REALLY optimistic.
Lets convert this to gil an hour. BLU= 6.3 mil an hour, BST=2.93 mil an hour
Lets try a typical DD:
Merit time=25-35 mins killing things one by one
Can't Solo VD avatar so has to to D, which singles drop from
Rezone time=10.5 mins
Worse in every way and I can't even really assign a number to it, other than know it's much worse off than BST.
Sure there are other ways to make gil, but as I've pointed out, they also push out other jobs in party setups due to their buffs, and are growing in popularity so rapidly because of reasons like these.
Lets say you group up for those same bcnms, you will get a 1 in 6 chance to get those same coffers, have similar clear and cleave times to BLU solo (you can get the fights down to about 1.5 mins with a group, but if your group doesn't have a cleave job BLU STILL pulls ahead of an endgame party, solo and I've had groups that due to lack of skillchain coordination, they still have longer than 4 min clear times). So you're looking at, on average, clearing about the same speed as blu but getting almost half the gil for it. This isn't even including other money drops in the pool, that the solo player will get all of.
BLU has more power, which leads to more power. Now just because you play BLU, everything is easier on you. You have lots of gil, you can do whatever you want all on one job, and you can even DD the hardest mobs in the game without a real tank. But the problem is CLEARLY that people just too dumb and bad to play other jobs and just follow the leader, even though as you've shown there's other examples on other jobs out there of great players for their job... and they still do it worse than BLU does. Gee I wonder why.
BLU is a problem solo, BLU is a problem in group setups and shutting out other jobs from being invited, BLU is a problem in that it is so played and imbalances other choices, BLU is a problem in that it can do so much so WELL on one job, jack of trades or hybrid shouldn't mean just better at the game in nearly every way, that's called overpowered. Think about the fact that t4 reisenjima, hate is being held by BLU simply from their damage, with their normal loadout tanking it. It's this same power that allows it to be so far ahead in so much content and make the game much easier on anyone that chooses to play it and that is broken. You say we need to change the conversation. You know what would do that very quickly? A really big nerf to blu. At the same time, it'd address the very obvious imblanced state BLU as it currently stands and once again widen job choices and make for a more healthy ffxi. -
10-21-2016, 10:32 PMEckamus
I personally don't really play BLU, sure I have it leveled and all, but meh. I only play it to get the spells and all for completion sake. Still missing most of those pesky Delve NM spells. Also I have done Intense VD Ambuscade this month without BLU on several occasions using RDM for Gravity II. Works just fine. Also bring WAR, DRK, SAM, MNK, etc... with 2 support GEO, BRD or COR and a PLD, still win in 2-2.5 minutes with buff time. This is without 1 hours also. So I don't see how BLU is overpowered in any respect concerning Ambuscade this month. I'm in a smaller LS, there are only 2-3 out of ~18-20 people that actively play BLU.
Some of the statements you make don't quite add up also, but like I said I don't really play BLU. Do you play BLU? I ask, cause it's sounds like you do not play the job.
I play PLD and GEO mainly and I can't say I have ever seen a BLU tank anything in Reisenjima beyond a T2. Even if they were to attempt it, I believe they would have to set all defensive type/trait spells. Leaving a severe lack of attack/accuracy as you can only set 20 spells or 80 points of spells (that's with merits/job points). Basically, leaving them lacking for a better word. So no matter how you look at it, you have to trade something off. You want to go pure DD setup your defensive/healing capabilities are gonna be cut short or nonexistent and vice versa.
You know they are all gonna turn into Flayers anyways.