Idea for SMN

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Originally Posted by FaeQueenCory

Wonderfully said, but you forgot something:
Our ward potency (the buffs not the heals) are crap atm.
The benefit of a smn ward is that it's all -ga effects...
While it would still be nice to have their potency revised for the >99 world we find ourselves in today....
The thing is...
if the BP cap was raise to 50% (30s)... then the sacrifice of having a less potent buff (ignoring the still relevant ones like Fenrir) would be a good trade-off if they could be reapplied every 30s as needed.
SCH/rdm will be better at casting a phalanx-ga than Diabolos... but should the timer be increased... Diabolos' phalanx-ga would be a more relevant alternative... even if it's only 13% (iirc) and a good sch can plop out a 25% (iirc)...

TL,DR: the timer cap needs to be inceased.
Everything else can wait for aeons... because that timer's cap is the single most important thing summoner needs to be viable.

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Trust me, I am very aware of the deplorable state of our buffing Wards. Nearly universally, we pay more MP for less potent effects - and I'm talking about SCH or /SCH Accessioned spells, so it's direct comparisons of cost and potency between two AoE buffs! Oh, but we win out in duration, for what it's worth. If the BP timer is to be the number one thing that needs to be addressed for SMN, Ward potency would be a mighty close second.

(Also, as a side note, Phalanx is not a percentage -DT. It is a flat number taken off the amount of damage you would take. I.E. if you would take 20 damage from a hit, then after a 13pt Phalanx you would instead take 7 damage. And while we're still stuck at a 13 pt Phalanx, anyone else capable of casting the spell can reach a 30pt Phalanx with a very moderate 400 Enhancing Magic.)

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Trust me, I am very aware of the deplorable state of our buffing Wards. Nearly universally, we pay more MP for less potent effects - and I'm talking about SCH or /SCH Accessioned spells, so it's direct comparisons of cost and potency between two AoE buffs! Oh, but we win out in duration, for what it's worth. If the BP timer is to be the number one thing that needs to be addressed for SMN, Ward potency would be a mighty close second.

(Also, as a side note, Phalanx is not a percentage -DT. It is a flat number taken off the amount of damage you would take. I.E. if you would take 20 damage from a hit, then after a 13pt Phalanx you would instead take 7 damage. And while we're still stuck at a 13 pt Phalanx, anyone else capable of casting the spell can reach a 30pt Phalanx with a very moderate 400 Enhancing Magic.)

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Ah is that how phalanx works? I had thought it was a % like how gear does it.

And yes. Ward potency IS the next thing to adjust after the time.
But like you said, while out potency is crap.... the duration is hella long.
So with a shorter timer... we'll gain a sort of potency in that we'll be able to reapply the buffs when they are actually needed. (thinking of SS, specifically)
After that is done, we can then adjust the potency with the new timer in mind.
Because which you you rather have: sch level buffs.... but with a 45s timer. or current buffs with a 30s timer.
I'd pick the latter myself... and then SE can look at how much the BPs should be adjusted with the new limit.

SMN is basically stuck at lv75.... and it may very well be because of they are afraid of where it can go.
Which I can understand. I don't want to see smn become better at buffing than SCH, that's SCH's primary role. SMN's primary role is DD, then support (buff and heals).
But what I DO want (and expect to see) is something comparable.

Kinda like how it is gonna be for the REMs.
With Mythic being "the best" (it's like 1-2pts of dmg higher than delve weapons).
Delve gear being just a nudge below them.
Relics being just slightly below that.
And Empyreans below that just a bit.
But the difference is something like 131, 130, 126, and 121 iirc... meaning that unless you're parsing out all the DPS, all four are basically the same.
And that's very similar to how I think SMN should be in terms of buffs.

let's look at phalanx. Diabolos pimps out a -13 currently, going with your SCH number: they can pimp out -30.
I don't think Diabolos should be boosted to -30... BUT boosting him to say, 27 or even 25 (since I'm assuming sch's have to put some effort much like a SMN's "Alexander" gear to get the skill needed for a -30) is where he should be.

On the opposite hand, there's wards like Garuda's blink.
I would NEVER want/ask/expect this to ever be turned into an utsusemi shadow.
BUT seeing as how BLU is capable of giving themselves 7 blink shadows... Garuda at 99 should be capable of at least 5 blink shadows for everyone. If not a full 7... I mean... she IS a god.

But I think this might have been ignored for so long... because the devs are afraid of where to draw the line.
And I think the line should be drawn a little bit less than what every other mage can do.
Basically, we are the "empyrean weapon" of buffing:
The least potent... but the longest lasting.

As it is now, the timer is too long to make out pathetically weak buffs be worth it. But if the timer was raised... just to 50% (30s)... then I think that would be a huge leap in the "percieved potency" of our buffs. (due to the ability to readily reapply them as actually needed.)

IF they do any major update with the SMN job, I think they should make it so people who can use these new abilities, can deal more damage, have lower timer, whatever it may be, their SMN magic skill should be leveled decently. I've played this game for YEARS on an old character and my smn skill is beyond capped, but I still see others sitting outside of a zone resummoning constantly to level their skill just to make these abilities more.. deserving?

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Originally Posted by Pawlie

IF they do any major update with the SMN job, I think they should make it so people who can use these new abilities, can deal more damage, have lower timer, whatever it may be, their SMN magic skill should be leveled decently. I've played this game for YEARS on an old character and my smn skill is beyond capped, but I still see others sitting outside of a zone resummoning constantly to level their skill just to make these abilities more.. deserving?

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While I'm sure all us "real" smns look down on the "abyburned noobs"....
I think this is going just a bit too far.
I know that I, myself, am guilty of this elitist mentality of looking down on the "abyburned" smns... When I catch someone about to do it... I tell them to stop... and offer help with leveling them more naturally... Partially so that I can help them be a better smn... but also so that there are less smns in the world with a skill level of 84 at 99... (and that's being generous)

But if the person who abyburns their smn up to 99 and then goes and takes the mind numbing time to raise their skill level artificially like how you mentioned... I say, let them do so.
A smn with the talent of not burning the job from 30-99 will always exceed the talents of the "abysseanoob".
But we shouldn't try and punish them more than what their own ineptitude will bring them.

And given how post-Adoulin content all seems to say "screw levels 1-98, abyburn your jobs now!".... I'm looking at you, GEO and RUN AF..... 1..... :(
I think it's even more wrong to punish people for embracing what it seems the game itself is promoting.

SMN is a weird job... it takes thinking entirely differently than all the other jobs. Even the other mage jobs!
But the thing is... the current paradigm of playstyle... just doesn't fit with smn.
SMN is the job that practically says "abyburn me if you want.... but you will be sorry."

And overall, I don't mind abyburning..... But we, as "old style" smns, should not punish the "noobs".... we should seek to guide them and deter them from making this mistake with the job.... or at least inform them that they will have months of nothing but skilling up. (I don't even think Liminus earring helps with smn skillups... it might for the actually summoning... but I don't know.)

I capped summoning magic at 75. I levelled in abyssea to about 85 then started to use SMN for WoE only. Back then, WoE didn't give skillups. Due to the terrible skill-up rate on summoning magic, when I left abyssea at 85 I had the skill for about 77. No skillups in WoE meant that is where it stayed for a long time.

Not everyone you see skilling their summoning magic is an 'abyssea burned n00b' ^^

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

I capped summoning magic at 75. I levelled in abyssea to about 85 then started to use SMN for WoE only. Back then, WoE didn't give skillups. Due to the terrible skill-up rate on summoning magic, when I left abyssea at 85 I had the skill for about 77. No skillups in WoE meant that is where it stayed for a long time.

Not everyone you see skilling their summoning magic is an 'abyssea burned n00b' ^^

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That is a very good point.
But then again.... chances are in today's game.... They will be.
I don't remember if it was here or on another forum where someone talked about the "normal/proper way the game is played" and they listed:
1)level to 30 in gusgen
2)level to 99 in abyssea
3) empy/bayld gear
4) I don't remember the rest...

And no one said anything to contradict that....
Which means that if no one raised any objections.... that really IS how most players play.
And I can't fault them for that when things like GEO and RUN's AF....1.... is 99 gear.

I don't personally do that, because I care about my skill levels (smn ingrained that into me hard lol)... so should I decide to burn a job to 99.... I go gusgen to 33(full RSE) >>> crawler's nest to 50 >>> Go do the AF1 quests >>> back to crawler's nest with my AF1 to level to 60 >>> got to Bostaunieux Oubliette until 75 >>> (if there is magic involved, cap what needs be now) >>> then to abyssea until 99. (I don't actually do this exactly because before LB1, I leveled all my jobs to cap -50- and made sure to max all their skills then before doing my LBs. But that is what worked for me and my playstyle and by no means should or do I judge others by my measure.)

And I don't look down on a smn doing the cycling.... That really IS the fastest way to skill up... cause food doesn't affect the skill gains from BPs iirc.
But what I DO look down on are smns who run around in their AF3 sets... not AF3+1... the base.
>: (
THAT is the "abyssea burned noob" that I'm talking about.... the smns who don't even wear any AF1..... but run around at 99 in full unaugmented empyrean armor...
Who does that?
If not ppl who have the skill level of a lv30 and the body of a 99: an "abyssea burned noob"

The first job I ever burned in abyssea was WAR. I went from 49-99 iirc.

Next thing I did was grabbed 1 of each low level weapon that WAR could use, and ran off to the Boyahda Tree and sat there for 2 weeks until all of my combat skills were 300+.

Then I went to abyssea with some skill up food and got most of them up to ~350.

Then I was free to burn a load of other jobs to 99.

Don't get me wrong, I loved levelling other jobs normally/properly/slowly. Heck, I solo'd BLU to ~66 just learning the spells. My aim was to get to 99 without leeching, but I ran out of stuff to spend merits on, so leeched to 83, then finished it off slowly.

Unfortunately, not all jobs are as fun/interesting to level slowly. Can you imagine soloing all the way on brd or whm? I did a bit of bones bashing with NPC on whm/nin but I couldn't do more than ~5 levels.

TBH though, exp is so easy to get these days, that you're unlikely to stay capped on skills even if you just solo on DC mobs the whole way. Just look at how fast you level in Monstrosity!

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Originally Posted by FaeQueenCory

While I'm sure all us "real" smns look down on the "abyburned noobs"....
I think this is going just a bit too far.
I know that I, myself, am guilty of this elitist mentality of looking down on the "abyburned" smns... When I catch someone about to do it... I tell them to stop... and offer help with leveling them more naturally... Partially so that I can help them be a better smn... but also so that there are less smns in the world with a skill level of 84 at 99... (and that's being generous)

But if the person who abyburns their smn up to 99 and then goes and takes the mind numbing time to raise their skill level artificially like how you mentioned... I say, let them do so.
A smn with the talent of not burning the job from 30-99 will always exceed the talents of the "abysseanoob".
But we shouldn't try and punish them more than what their own ineptitude will bring them.

And given how post-Adoulin content all seems to say "screw levels 1-98, abyburn your jobs now!".... I'm looking at you, GEO and RUN AF..... 1..... :(
I think it's even more wrong to punish people for embracing what it seems the game itself is promoting.

SMN is a weird job... it takes thinking entirely differently than all the other jobs. Even the other mage jobs!
But the thing is... the current paradigm of playstyle... just doesn't fit with smn.
SMN is the job that practically says "abyburn me if you want.... but you will be sorry."

And overall, I don't mind abyburning..... But we, as "old style" smns, should not punish the "noobs".... we should seek to guide them and deter them from making this mistake with the job.... or at least inform them that they will have months of nothing but skilling up. (I don't even think Liminus earring helps with smn skillups... it might for the actually summoning... but I don't know.)

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now I feel old for having capped my summon skill when the level cap was 75 by summoning and re-summoning elemental spirits for hour upon hours before they fixed the system. x.x

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Originally Posted by Kagetachi

now I feel old for having capped my summon skill when the level cap was 75 by summoning and re-summoning elemental spirits for hour upon hours before they fixed the system. x.x

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Doing that was brutal, and I never had the stomach for it. You have both my deepest sympathies, and my highest respect.

As for those who burned their way up to 99? So long as they take the time to gear decently and have nearly capped skills: More power to 'em. Seriously. The basics of the game don't change (enmity, mp management, etc). All that's left is learning a particular job's idiosyncrasies - something that can usually be done while goofing off with friends.

Admittedly, no player can ever truly master a job without (at least) a few months of experience on it, but they can at least do well enough to jump into things like reives, or plasm farming.

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Originally Posted by FaeQueenCory

let's look at phalanx. Diabolos pimps out a -13 currently, going with your SCH number: they can pimp out -30.
I don't think Diabolos should be boosted to -30... BUT boosting him to say, 27 or even 25 (since I'm assuming sch's have to put some effort much like a SMN's "Alexander" gear to get the skill needed for a -30) is where he should be.

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Actually, the 400 skill needed for a 30pt Phalanx is attainable by a SCH (or RDM/SCH!) merely by having almost capped skill while wearing nothing but a smile. The "putting effort into it" value of 500 Enhancing magic gives a (hard-capped) 35pt Phalanx! Also, here's some more food for thought: It takes 42 MP to Accession that spell with a potency of 35, however Noctoshield costs 92 for a potency of 13...

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Originally Posted by FaeQueenCory

On the opposite hand, there's wards like Garuda's blink.
I would NEVER want/ask/expect this to ever be turned into an utsusemi shadow.
BUT seeing as how BLU is capable of giving themselves 7 blink shadows... Garuda at 99 should be capable of at least 5 blink shadows for everyone. If not a full 7... I mean... she IS a god.

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Something along these lines is exactly the sort of fix I'd like to see for Aerial Armor! This would make it worth actually bothering to use, as it has better synergy with our long duration, and doesn't step on the toes of Utsusemi's perfect shadows. It is also more in line with the MP cost of the ability. It takes 40 MP for a mage to Accession + Blink for 2 shadows, whereas Aerial Armor costs 92 MP for only 3 - more than 100% of the cost of Blink for only an extra 50% of the benefit.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Doing that was brutal, and I never had the stomach for it. You have both my deepest sympathies, and my highest respect.

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LoL It's not that hard... I think just the opposite: that buring smn from 30 to 99 with uncapped skill... sitting there for days on end.... doing nothing.... now THAT is brutal.
But then, that's why I didn't do that.

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Originally Posted by Mokeil

Actually, the 400 skill needed for a 30pt Phalanx is attainable by a SCH (or RDM/SCH!) merely by having almost capped skill while wearing nothing but a smile. The "putting effort into it" value of 500 Enhancing magic gives a (hard-capped) 35pt Phalanx! Also, here's some more food for thought: It takes 42 MP to Accession that spell with a potency of 35, however Noctoshield costs 92 for a potency of 13...

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Well...... damn. That is QUITE the difference.................. Having the cost be similar.... isn't something that really matters at all.
Like, at all.
NIN spells cost 0. BLM T4s cost more than SMNs. Cost isn't something that should be uniform....
But effect kinda is.
At least comparable effects anyways. (utsusemi =/= blink after all)
I have no problems with paying more for my lv49 spell as opposed to a "cheated" lv33 spell. It's a lv33 spell.
Now, the price-potency scale... now, THAT is absurd currently.
92mp for 1/2 the power of 42mp? no. Unacceptable.
92mp for comparable power to the 42mp that requires more than one action? Acceptable.

Sure SCH will out perform SMN in buffing... but SMN isn't a main support class. It's a DD that dips into support.
We don't want to take away SCH's role of the buffer. Just like we don't want to take away WHM's role of the healer...
It's kinda all they have. (Though at least SCH dips enough into DD to do that too)


EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Babekeke

The first job I ever burned in abyssea was WAR. I went from 49-99 iirc.

Next thing I did was grabbed 1 of each low level weapon that WAR could use, and ran off to the Boyahda Tree and sat there for 2 weeks until all of my combat skills were 300+.

Then I went to abyssea with some skill up food and got most of them up to ~350.

Then I was free to burn a load of other jobs to 99.

Don't get me wrong, I loved levelling other jobs normally/properly/slowly. Heck, I solo'd BLU to ~66 just learning the spells. My aim was to get to 99 without leeching, but I ran out of stuff to spend merits on, so leeched to 83, then finished it off slowly.

Unfortunately, not all jobs are as fun/interesting to level slowly. Can you imagine soloing all the way on brd or whm? I did a bit of bones bashing with NPC on whm/nin but I couldn't do more than ~5 levels.

TBH though, exp is so easy to get these days, that you're unlikely to stay capped on skills even if you just solo on DC mobs the whole way. Just look at how fast you level in Monstrosity!

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I can't even imagine BRD further than I did.... And I only took it past 10 up to 50... because BLM can sub it in abyssea for more procs.....
I REALLY HATE BRD.
So..... SO MUCH.....

And yes, there is nothing wrong with what you are describing.... but were you wearing unaugmented AF3? I highly doubt it.
I personally don't take any job lower than 75 into abyssea... but that's just me. I do it that way cause I enjoy learning the intricacies of the job's nuances....
Obviously for some jobs.... Looking at you WAR... there aren't really any nuances to talk about.