Not sure which magian axe to aim for.

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Originally Posted by Raksha

I would avoid doing the da/oat path because silver mirrors are a huge cockblock (at least on my server). they'll end up costing you millions of gil and still wont be as good as a STR axe.

Looking back on it i wouldve probably made a 2nd STR axe instead of my DA axe.

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Even at DA+10 (the reward before mirrors) it will add more damage over time when factoring the shorter tp phase from increased DAs and the increased damage from additional DA procs on WS.

It obviously depends on the server but a Fire Axe costs around 3mil when lucky price shopping on Bismarck and a DA axe finished runs 2-3mil when price shopping so the cost is on par.

I don't recall ever mathing out a situation where the OAX Axes actually beat a STR path let alone a DA axe, lower base damage combined with the bad multi hit distribution really hurt these axes.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

AM3 is Occasionally Attacks 2-3 times 40%/40%/20% split that can proc on WS and it goes to the pet how can you not see that would win?

Sure Primal Rend's damage sucks and won't ever beat Onslaught but the benefit of Aymur (like most other mythics) is getting OA2-3 on any WS while AM is up. Combine that with the fact Ruinator's fTP transfers to all hits including the OA2-3 ones how is it even a question that Aymur is awesome.

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This is ironic. I'm usually arguing the other side of this debate. I've always thought Aymur, would probably win. However, there have always been several unknowns. However, if you are counting master alone using ruinator ws, Guttler will always win.

Foremost among them is how much damage do bst pets actually do?
I know we all have some sense of this, but w/out determining what the real numbers are, we can't see how well it scales. The awesome damage we see when our pets kill lower level mobs is flipped on us when fighting higher level NM's.

For example, if you are fighting IG-Alima (whose level and def is super high) on bst, the melee dps is so abyssmal, that a pet, even if you could keep it alive, will hardly be doing any damage at all. It cannot be buffed up nearly to the degree which a player can. (Consequently, Primal Rend will be a great WS to use here, even w/ fantastic buffs). Guttler would definitely win in such a fight.

I took the opportunity to use the dps spreadsheets to compare guttler and aymur. I was surprised that I had actually not done that before. I was also suprised to see how close they were. level 99 guttler vs level 99 aymur only has a 2%~5% advantage in dps. This comparison compared the exact same optimal tp and ws sets and ruinator vs various targets from dc nightmare mobs to to Ig-alima.

It did NOT consider any aftermath effects, nor did it consider the choke effect from guttler nor did it include pets at all.
The choke effect will help pets also. However the numbers were still much closer than I anticipated, which I find encouraging for the aymur side.

Its still not conclusive. I do not think most bst will try to slip in the occasional Onslaught in there for the 10% attack bonus. It is almost never worth it vs the damage you do on Ruinator.

On the Aymur side, you are losing 2 Ruinator WS's for a single Primal Rend to get am3 up. In most cases thats probably an average of 1k damage/ws round you need to make up in the AM3 just to catch that portion up, let alone the dps gap to catch up w/ guttler. Its hard to be exactly sure, because your ws rate should go up w/ the am3 active also.

I do think Aymur will win. I think it would win by a HUGE margin for anything low level and for thing which are not too many levels above 99. Probably up to 109 or 110 maybe. After that it is not so clear.

Not factoring in the Aftermath on Aymur makes a huge difference and explains why your outcomes are so close on the 2 weapons. I'm not even talking about the pet at that point.

Edit: I just ran a quick pass through the spreadsheet with AMs active and and the only time a Guttler beats Aymur is on WS average damage, the white damage from Aymur makes up for that though. Also the margin gets bigger the more properly buffed you get.

Edit2: Swapped out Aymur for Ganelon DA and the only time it loses to Guttler is on Pil and up (assumes AM from Guttler is active)

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Not factoring in the Aftermath on Aymur makes a huge difference and explains why your outcomes are so close on the 2 weapons. I'm not even talking about the pet at that point.

Edit: I just ran a quick pass through the spreadsheet with AMs active and and the only time a Guttler beats Aymur is on WS average damage, the white damage from Aymur makes up for that though. Also the margin gets bigger the more properly buffed you get.

Edit2: Swapped out Aymur for Ganelon DA and the only time it loses to Guttler is on Pil and up (assumes AM from Guttler is active)

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Ofcourese not factoring in the aftermath is a HUGE difference!! Why do you think I spent the time to compare w/out it?

The spreadsheet is NOT sufficient to get the real numbers. Sorry, I assumed that would be understood from the beginning.
Motenten is awesome for making them, and they are fantastic tools, but they are not perfect models.

Please tell me if you have a good way to factor in the alternating weapon skill pattern. If you have the AM3 up for Aymur user using primal rend, and guttler using ruinator, then Aymur will pull way Ahead on melee dps and fall WAY behind on overall DPS.

This little example doesn't even factor for the alternation between 100 tp ws's and 300 tp ws you need for AM3. Let alone alternating between the 2 and knowing when to stop using ruinator again to have 300 tp ready to primal rend again when AM3 is going to wear off.

It doesn't sound like you are using the spreadsheet correctly.

Edit: Also, did you input the ODD estimation for Guttler's hidden effect?

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Originally Posted by Zagen

Even at DA+10 (the reward before mirrors) it will add more damage over time when factoring the shorter tp phase from increased DAs and the increased damage from additional DA procs on WS.

It obviously depends on the server but a Fire Axe costs around 3mil when lucky price shopping on Bismarck and a DA axe finished runs 2-3mil when price shopping so the cost is on par.

I don't recall ever mathing out a situation where the OAX Axes actually beat a STR path let alone a DA axe, lower base damage combined with the bad multi hit distribution really hurt these axes.

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The DA path actually has comparable base damage to the STR path (comparing both at 99).

My reasoning was that the DA axe could be a VW proc weapon, but like i said i'd probably do another STR axe if i had to do it all over again.

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Originally Posted by Xilk

Ofcourese not factoring in the aftermath is a HUGE difference!! Why do you think I spent the time to compare w/out it?

The spreadsheet is NOT sufficient to get the real numbers. Sorry, I assumed that would be understood from the beginning.
Motenten is awesome for making them, and they are fantastic tools, but they are not perfect models.

Please tell me if you have a good way to factor in the alternating weapon skill pattern. If you have the AM3 up for Aymur user using primal rend, and guttler using ruinator, then Aymur will pull way Ahead on melee dps and fall WAY behind on overall DPS.

This little example doesn't even factor for the alternation between 100 tp ws's and 300 tp ws you need for AM3. Let alone alternating between the 2 and knowing when to stop using ruinator again to have 300 tp ready to primal rend again when AM3 is going to wear off.

It doesn't sound like you are using the spreadsheet correctly.

Edit: Also, did you input the ODD estimation for Guttler's hidden effect?

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You used VW as a determining factor, which makes sense since it's the only high end content that a BST would be welcomed to melee. VW means a TP wing to start every fight and if a fight goes past 3 minutes you'll have another wing. In other words setting up AM3 for Aymur or Guttler is even.

As to factoring in the different WS it is relatively simple all be it fuzzy math (but then again the whole table can be considered fuzzy math). I count TP Wing + WS a 4 second loss so instead of (180 * Total DPS) I would use (176 * Total DPS) + (Average WS Damage of Primal Rend/Onslaught).

I did input the ODD at 13% (maybe it's higher I haven't actually read anything proving that). I also factored the 10% Attack through COR's DRK roll.

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Originally Posted by Zagen

You used VW as a determining factor, which makes sense since it's the only high end content that a BST would be welcomed to melee. VW means a TP wing to start every fight and if a fight goes past 3 minutes you'll have another wing. In other words setting up AM3 for Aymur or Guttler is even.

As to factoring in the different WS it is relatively simple all be it fuzzy math (but then again the whole table can be considered fuzzy math). I count TP Wing + WS a 4 second loss so instead of (180 * Total DPS) I would use (176 * Total DPS) + (Average WS Damage of Primal Rend/Onslaught).

I did input the ODD at 13% (maybe it's higher I haven't actually read anything proving that). I also factored the 10% Attack through COR's DRK roll.

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you dont' need onslaught in there at all.

you need to use 20% odd for the Guttler hidden effect estimate.

I used several VW mobs just as examples for scaling and because they were in the spreadsheet. I do not suggest depending on the temp items in VW as a means to compare the weapons. It can certainly be one scope. However saving up 300 tp for that first Primal is a long delay to get started.

I am more confident that Aymur will win on even higher level mobs after the research today, However, it won't always beat guttler. My statement stands. Aymur has always been my favorite. only need a few more thousand alex and alot of nyzul tokens ... and... and...

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Originally Posted by Xilk

you dont' need onslaught in there at all.

you need to use 20% odd for the Guttler hidden effect estimate.

I used several VW mobs just as examples for scaling and because they were in the spreadsheet. I do not suggest depending on the temp items in VW as a means to compare the weapons. It can certainly be one scope. However saving up 300 tp for that first Primal is a long delay to get started.

I am more confident that Aymur will win on even higher level mobs after the research today, However, it won't always beat guttler. My statement stands. Aymur has always been my favorite. only need a few more thousand alex and alot of nyzul tokens ... and... and...

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I've never had a VW where I didn't have a TP wing within 3 minutes, I know it's possible but I'd be more impressed the group survived for more than 2 minutes without Fanatic's/Fool's up haha. Without TP Wing though you're right the difference gets much smaller due to the wasted 2-3 WS to get level 3 started.

Is the 20% just assumed based on other 1 hand relics or was there testing I just missed? At 20% Guttler definitely pulls ahead depending on buffs.

I however disagree on the AM from Onslaught not being needed unless you happen to roll with a COR + 99 Harp/Horn BRD.