On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Trangnai

You should know how to do that regardless, but sadly, i see alot of rdms that run around casting enthunder and full timing mage gear when meleeing. I would also like to see boosts to rdms support role that increase the usefulness of the job on front lines.

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I think a part of that problem is that the class is not really streamlined for performance in any way. If you want to melee you need a full melee set. If you want to enfeeble at the beginning of a fight you need another set of gear just for that if you're looking to cast something other than Dia or Bio.

I personally don't know how support in the front would work. I've seen ideas for aura effects for Refresh and Haste (thus negating the need to cycle the spells), but not much more.

Built-in traits to boost our stats when under enspell effects is a neat idea, though. I would readily endorse that.

With Chant Du Cygne and some investment in gear (and atma inside abyssea), there is nothing wrong with the job's melee capacity. In fact, it's probably better than it ever has been. The fact that it requires a 'high-end' magian weapon to be competitive is hardly unique to RDM; in fact, only a few jobs (THF, BST, DRG off the top of my head) don't get left in the dust without their respective empyrean weapon-skills.

The real issue with RDM at this point in the game is lack of high level cures which leaves it useless as a healer (and to a lesser extent, lack of trigger options.)

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I think a part of that problem is that the class is not really streamlined for performance in any way. If you want to melee you need a full melee set. If you want to enfeeble at the beginning of a fight you need another set of gear just for that if you're looking to cast something other than Dia or Bio.

I personally don't know how support in the front would work. I've seen ideas for aura effects for Refresh and Haste (thus negating the need to cycle the spells), but not much more.

Built-in traits to boost our stats when under enspell effects is a neat idea, though. I would readily endorse that.

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Well of course, and thats exactly how the job should be, another thing is, the haste-refresh cycle is honestly what kills our ability to melee for the most part rdm should be able to fill whatever is needed.

in abyssea refresh for the most part isnt needed, and whm can cast haste, for 6 man pts outside or alliances outside you should only need to refesh a whm, and the whm should be able to haste, of course thats saying that your in the DD/melee pt of the Alliance. As for aura spells, a stat booster would be nice, i.e. attack or str something of the like. but rdm has usualy been a support role, but that may also be due to our lack of luster in other roles. which is probalby where it should change as well :P.

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Originally Posted by Andradi

The fact that it requires a 'high-end' magian weapon to be competitive is hardly unique to RDM; in fact, only a few jobs (THF, BST, DRG off the top of my head) don't get left in the dust without their respective empyrean weapon-skills.

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The difference is that other melee have tools to get them by in the leveling process, for one. DRK is pretty much set once they get guillotine and spinning slash. SAM is set when Yuki/Kasha/Gekko enter the picture (and even before that enpi is pretty strong and makes easy skillchains to boot). DRG gets pentathrust baseline. BST gets rampage to hold them over until they can get Primal Rend. WAR has Sturmwind and then Raging Rush.

On sword we have Fast Blade and...erm...yeah. We have to complete an empyrean to get another sword weapon skill worth using. That's way more than any of the above classes have to deal with. They also do not have to deal with perception issues and people expecting them to do something completely different.

The funny thing about the weapon skills for sword is that Vorpal Blade has the potential to be decent on RDM with proper gear and atmas, but we have no native access to it, which means that a standard DD set up (/NIN or /DNC) is going without it and is worse off as a result.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

The difference is that other melee have tools to get them by in the leveling process, for one. DRK is pretty much set once they get guillotine and spinning slash. SAM is set when Yuki/Kasha/Gekko enter the picture (and even before that enpi is pretty strong and makes easy skillchains to boot). DRG gets pentathrust baseline. BST gets rampage to hold them over until they can get Primal Rend. WAR has Sturmwind and then Raging Rush.

On sword we have Fast Blade and...erm...yeah. We have to complete an empyrean to get another sword weapon skill worth using. That's way more than any of the above classes have to deal with. They also do not have to deal with perception issues and people expecting them to do something completely different.

The funny thing about the weapon skills for sword is that Vorpal Blade has the potential to be decent on RDM with proper gear and atmas, but we have no native access to it, which means that a standard DD set up (/NIN or /DNC) is going without it and is worse off as a result.

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This is true, we don't get a good WS till 73-75 and even then its not really as good as needed, Dagger rdms get the better end of the stick sense evisceration is better then Death Blossom rdms don't get a good WS for sword Natively and the worse part is, SE keeps pushing rdms to use Sword (see ToTM) but Doesn't give them a worthwhile WS without subbing war, drk, blu, or pld and hence losing our DoT and TP gain. Pre-73 even dagger is useless and we only have Fast Blade to deal damage with, we can't even get access to the decent Elemental WSes without subbing the jobs mentioned above.

Furthermore, Sanguine blade is rather lethal on RDM, but again, no access.

I'm sure me popping my head in will be of no shock to some. I've been for RDM melee improvements for a long time now, and have been both critical and disappointed in SE's choices for the job's growth over the years. Personally, I feel like they could have taken RDM multiple ways, but instead have almost been too cautious despite (in)direct nerfs and preventative measures to curb some of the old exploits that allowed solos the devs may not have intended under the 75 cap. Nonetheless, the game's heading in a new direction, but one where many RDMs feel like they're being left behind for whatever reason.

Specific to melee, numerous issues have snowballed against RDM over the years. I'm going to note these and then go into more specifics.

1) Lack of Hybrid Gear and/or active inventory space.
2) Lack of Hybrid Foods.
3) Casting burden.
4) Role Identity.
5) Lack of native melee traits.
6) Poor native weaponskill selection.
7) Bugs or unwanted "features".

With the bases outlined above, I'm now going to get more specific on the listed points. No doubt this will rouse opinions for and against things I'll say, as such has happened quite a bit over the years. I'm just going to preempt it all and say that RDM melee is not "fine" until people allow without giving you the third degree. Meanwhile, I also understand some favor the backline role the job has taken up over the years. While I feel some would be better off looking into more specialized jobs for those perks, or even hop to SCH come 99, I'm not trying to make it go away. In part, I may even cover issues that style has while going through this list.

1) Lack of Hybrid Gear and/or active inventory space.

We all know the game's macro system is limited. To make the best of any action, we're forced to juggle our needs against situational equipment. For a RDM looking to cover everything (just in case), they will need numerous equipment sets ranging from INT/MATK for nuking, MND for enfeebling potency, a TP set of varying levels of Haste/ATK/ACC, and WS sets to give those more oomph. That's not everything, but just a start. Problem is, being limited to 80 active inventory spots means RDMs will have a harder time getting the most bang for their buck. Hybrid gear is largely non-existent, but of what few decent pieces there are out there, Morrigan's Robe probably stands out as one of the better items that qualify for this purpose. Its only weakness is a lack of Haste, but who knows, maybe the pending synergy augments could enable it.

Either way, RDM needs more gear like that that isn't grossly weaker than more specialized pieces. That's typically the fault in more mediocre or even terrible hybrid pieces like the level 72 JSE. With better gear consolidation, RDMs will have more freedom to act as battle dictates. Personally, if I wanted to melee, I'd have to swap out a dozen mage pieces into my satchel to bring out the melee stuff. Doing this frequently is tedious and irksome.

And as an added point, however this gear manifests needs to be both readily accessible and created at varying strengths throughout level progression. RDM melee should not begin at 75, 90, or whatever arbitrary level a must have piece of gear can be equipped.


2) Lack of Hybrid Foods.

Just like RDM has multiple equipment needs, we don't really have the luxury of food that tries to tackle that, either. Mage food has been universally laughable for a long time now, offering only MP, INT, MND, hMP, or -Enmity. None of these will help you if you're looking to melee. On the other hand, Pizza's ATK/ACC won't help you nuke or land your enfeebles any better. A food that adds ATK, ACC, MACC, and MATK all in one would be welcome. I'd also lobby for more potent MACC/MATK foods for backliners or other jobs like BLM.


3) Casting burden.

This one is probably one of the worst. Call it the Refresh cycle, the Haste cycle, needing 30 seconds to self-buff before engaging a mob when solo, or whatever. RDM casts a lot, and each time you cast means you're not able to swing. Those familiar with parsers will know that the damage of party members can be logged and reported for varying purposes. When you can only swing a fraction of the time relative to more established DDs, you're going to naturally fall behind in the pecking order. Multiply this against being a weaker physical DD to begin with and its no surprise RDM melee is shunned even when someone is trying to do it right with all the proper gear.

Now, Composure helped this a little, but this only applies to buffs to ourselves before you get into the Empyrean gear. Frankly, I think it's a slap in the face that a RDM has to get the +2 Set and the Cape just to start alleviating the casting burden on others. I'd very much simply want the Composure duration bonus to extend to EVERYONE with the Empyrean set then being tweaked to add Haste (4/9/14/20%) and ATK (10/15/20/30) to its Composure bonus. This even starts us toward our needed hybrid gear, but I still hate the idea of limiting RDMs to the +2 set just to get started or gain some footing in the DD rat race.

Other alternative ideas involve Enhancing Magic duration being boosted by your skill level, or an old idea of mine prior to Composure was a tiered trait that upped durations 25/50/75/100% that other jobs could've subbed RDM for to get up to the 50% tier. I'd still be for these, both at once even, and especially if they did stack with Composure. Nobody likes casting Refresh or Haste repeatedly, let along being yelled at by their fellow players if either drops for a particular period of time.

The last idea was what some of called the Combat Caster trait. Basically, the melee timer would still tick while casting, just at a slower rate that could tier in speed. All hybrid jobs (RDM/PLD/DRK/BLU) could receive this trait. No need to be greedy.


4) Role Identity.

What is RDM good for? Back in the day, people would claim they were better at being WHM than a WHM. Nowadays, that's not really the case in Abyssea and with all the other nifty toys they've received over time. Of course, as a nuker, RDM also competes with SCH, BLM, the BLM automaton, and select BLUs. Personally, I felt RDM should have stayed off the T4 nukes in favor of melee buffs to offer some distinction from SCH, who come 99 will basically be the RDM of 75 on top of all the things they have and got from the cap increases.

That said, RDM needs things that make them unique, that would make their melee wanted even if it wasn't the best possible damage. Sadly, some of this thunder was lost with the implementation of DNC as a job. Just look all their steps: various enfeebles that would've been perfect for the RDM main, but really, the only thing worse than the Cast Burden is stacking JA delay on top of that if you /DNC, and in turn are giving up precious WS frequency for what few steps and flourishes you can use. In part, SE tried to be unique with the T2 Enspells and their -resists, but they're both too weak and too pointless in general play. Where they may have been useful, people would never want a RDM around a harder mob due to arguments of TP feed and their inefficient damage.

So, what can you do to make RDM stand out either individually or at least support the party without feeling like a slave to it?


5) Lack of native melee traits.

This point is fairly obvious. You could call Composure a modest ACC bonus, but other jobs like DNC get that in tiers to greater benefit. Generally, RDM could benefit from at least the T1 traits for ACC, ATK, and maybe DEF. I'd like for more unique things that somehow tie into your active enspell like Enfire giving +ATK, but overall, it's hard to justify RDM's melee presence when they have to use a subjob to get any of the above three. Shield Master with F grade skill doesn't count. By the way, bump RDM's Shield and Parry to at least C. And give the job Fencer already.


6) Poor native weaponskill selection.

Other posters hinted at this earlier in the thread, but like with certain traits, limiting RDM to specific subjobs to gain access to better WS isn't the best move when you consider all that's working against it for now. Sword WS pre-Vorpal Blade aren't really the best. Death Blossom wasn't as good as VB and good WS wasn't seen again until Sanguine Blade and then CDC. If you're going to insist on keeping things like this, then at least tweak DB to crit and for a future WS, give RDM a null-elemental as good or better than Sanguine that shifts element based on your current enspell. Doesn't need to do anything fancy, but if it can guarantee at least 1k outside of Abyssea, I'd call it a win.

(Continued in next post due to 10k char limit)

7) Bugs or unwanted "features".

A) Tier II Enspells: Bug?

Unlike their T1 equivalents, T2 enspells have their accuracy and damage determined on-strike as opposed to on-cast. Demanding your RDMs to melee in +Enhancing gear is not a means to endear them to others. For the most part, we're better off sticking to T1s where multi-hitters also trigger the added effects more often and more accurately.

B) Enfeeble Immunities: Feature?

I can understand Bind and Gravity at least building resistances to curb solos, but when you consider that, even with A+ Enfeebling, RDM's Enfeebling selection is rather limited. Every time a mob is immune to a debuff, that selection dwindles even further. When I earlier hinted at directions SE could take RDM, a more dedicated enfeebler was among them. As of now, BLU actually has a wider variety of debuffs than RDM, and some are even AoE.

C) Accession: Feature?

When the level cap increase was announced and people started talking about how subjobs would open up more for everyone, Accession from /SCH was one of those RDM dreams. Nevermind the fact RDMs have wanted the ability to AoE their buffs for years, now we at least had the chance with /SCH. And then you block Haste. And Refresh II won't work with it. Not nice, SE. Not nice. This was one of those things we looked forward to to help alleviate the Cast Burden.

D) Merit Spells: Feature?

This isn't a RDM problem specifically. I'm just going to say that all merit spells and abilities should be available to everyone with the proper level (and scroll used). Instead, these merits should be changed to affect potency and such. Blind II, Bio III, and to a lesser degree Phalanx II (thanks to /SCH) are often neglected by RDMs because they're just not worth giving up precious merits for.








I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but it's late for me and I think I've brought up most of the glaring points. In the end, I'm not personally looking to make RDM the best DD out there. I just want both a reason to engage in a party and not be eaten alive by the ridicule or passive aggressive demeanor of my peers. You can make it work. I know you can. You just have to try and not cut corners.

To respond to the only post in this thread longer then mine :P:

1) I have to agree with this, back when Abyssea first started, Empyrean gear wasn't anything but what i hoped it would be Seeing other jobs gear first when scars came out and even before that with the neck pieces, I was disappointed. Rather then seeing what I wanted (a lil bit of everything but enough to make it worthwhile) we got lolwannabeblm or whatever the heck it was they were trying to give us. We not only lack in Hybrid gear but melee gear in general, i know i use at least 60 slots just for gear, thats basic TP gear, WS, Enfeebling, Enhancing, and Weapon Choices depending on the situation. and considering i don't have most the gear i would like, you can imagine that over time that will increase. I keep my staffs and primary nuking/healing gear in my Mog Sack when Melee and Vise-versa.

2) Really foods only enhance what a job can do even more, most of the time i don't waste the money for food on exp. But thats just personal choices.

3) I'm sure every red mage would agree, this has always been, composure helped alot with this, but its only useful when when not being stuck in the haste and refresh cycle, which players have forced our party role to become. to even be able to do both roles semi-effectively, you need the entire empyrean +2 set.

4) Most people seem to forget this game existed before Aht Urhgan, And I honestly believe only when the game was first released were we able to play a melee role in parties, with the addition of Refresh and the "Cycle" we were permanently pushed to the back lines, Being used solely to relieve whms of Mana, back up healing, refreshing and hasting. When ToAU was released, we revealed whms of there role as healer entirely due to the weaker mobs to exp on along with the additional suppor brd and cor could give to a pt, rdms less effecent cures/mana pool was more then enough when it wasent there was convert. rdm also had sleeps to back up brd and cor in there pulling/sleeping duites if needed and Divine Seal with /whm allowed then to resotre there HP when they needed to convert or need an extra boost to there heals due to these tools rdm outshined whm in exp/merit pt healing roles and stayed this way till today, with Abyssea.

5) Alot of good ideas have been pushed for this already. I'll stick to those.

6) I still don't see why SE has limited our Weapon Skill Selection, for the skills we have in dagger and sword, as well as being one of the few jobs that Utilize either of these as our main weapon. There is honestly no reason we should not have access to most if not all Weapon Skills usable by the main sword/dagger users in the game


(Cont next post.)

7) A) According to what i've heard there is a bug that would occur due to allowing tier 2s to proc on multi-hit due to the way dmg is calculated. The Method used for it (without the increasing dmg) was used back at the beginning of the game for tier 1s as well. However the idea of increasing the dmg from the enspell overtime insead of just doubling the effect to begin with is where the heart of the issue stands but i geuss SE thought that would be broken, like everything else they've nurfed rdm.

B) Once again, SE's fear of rdm being overpower has caused it to be underpowered, however I don't see why SE doesn't release more enfeebles for rdm to use, giving us an additional use, a use that with abyssea, seems useless sadly.

C) I woulden't use /sch when melee anyway, but the point is still there.

D) Merits are about choosing how you want to take your job, but i agree, the spells shouldn't need to be gotten by merits, it should only increase what is already there.