Staff Relic/Empyreans/Mythics need adjustment

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Originally Posted by Pebe

sch was an interesting meleer with their solo dark skillchains with immanence, however, we are missing the central issue here. Two out of the 3 categories of mages weapons are designated as melee weapons, and both laevateiin and tupsimati are lacking for their price tag. As we all know BLMs have a hard time keep up with melee DD now a days in game content, due to everything being a zerg. A staff such has laevateinn should bridge that gap, that should be its purpose. For instance, Ryuhigne does this for DRG and Kenkoken for pup(all though not as much as ryuhigne).

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I will admit the mythic weapons in particular are a bit puzzling, just because they were specifically billed as more about enhancing abilities than being the most powerful weapons, but many of them (not just the mage weapons) kind of failed to do that very well. I am leaving the relic and emyprean weapons out of this equation as they were designed to be the strongest weapon weapons in their respective categories and little else.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

I will admit the mythic weapons in particular are a bit puzzling, just because they were specifically billed as more about enhancing abilities than being the most powerful weapons, but many of them (not just the mage weapons) kind of failed to do that very well. I am leaving the relic and emyprean weapons out of this equation as they were designed to be the strongest weapon weapons in their respective categories and little else.

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relic and empyreans are puzzling too for the mages, they make no sense.

Just imagine if Melee relics/empys would give an aftermath but for it to actually activate you need to land a debuff like slow or para on the mob via casting a spell. You would say that the weapon itself would be fuckign worthless because there would be no convenient way for you to make use of that weapon, because melees are bad considering magic stuff.

This is how mages feal about their relic/empy/mythic weapon. They have to tap into their weakest aspect of ability they have to bring the weapon to "shine": meleeing. this is a big flaw in desing imho

When I said it would "be as simple as retyping text", I was using that in comparison to how easy it was, not literally. All stats I have suggested are already in the game, nothing new or groundbreaking. All they would need to do is change which values are called to be added to your character's total stats value to bee used in the formulas/equations. There isn't any really new programming going on, it would just be cut and pasting of existing code. The only perhaps interesting part would be making 2 new aftermaths of occasionally quick cast(but this would just add a value to your total quiccast, so seems easy) and occasional deals double damage(just copy the code from blm af3+2 set with a few changes).

All they need to do is make the Relic have a high damage magic based WS with an INT mod and an aftermath for either very high MAB or level 5~6 affinity. Emp can stay how it is, a staff for extra MP while giving you a WS that restores your MP. Mythics are unique ofcourse so they should be as such, BLM should give the same MAB it does not but needs Affinity +4, this will put it above trial staves by far while still making it amazing for Meteor, with out that being its only use. Summoner's is fine how it is though it wouldn't hurt for them to add attack for your avatar as well, and perhaps some haste or something, just to make it better than just a super high-end perp staff with some MAB for your Avatar. SCH should get a massive weather bonus boost since thats the advantage of the job. Basically think of SCHs as Chatoyant, same stats as normal however has a Iridescence effect on it and +2 Affinity under the correct weather for the spell. Mythics can keep their WSs probably as idk what they are or do, but I think that would make the weapons right. 1 for melee damage, 1 for MP, and 1 for magical damage or avatar damage.

What Claustrum needs is a quest to find its weaponskill's long-missing "u", upgrading to "Gate of Tarutarus"--when it used, a hole in space opens up and dozens of tarutarus run out and each whack the monster once before disappearing. Inevitably, one the tarus trips and falls on his face as he is charging the target, and gets up and smacks the monster slightly after the others for comedic effect. (The quest should require, among other things, that the player fetch a pair of Stumbling Sandals, thus finally giving us a use for the damn things after 10 years.) This still wouldn't make Claustrum good of course, but at least the manner in which it fails would be amusing rather than merely as pitiful as a dead kitten in a tiny clown suit.

There are three ways you can approach staff relics/mythics:

1) Mage jobs have very specific roles, so lets make them better at those roles.
Example:
* Black Magic damage for BLM and SCH
* Avatar BP damage for SMN

Good-ish staff examples: Nirvana - Sorry SMNs, but a 20% increase in damage for Magic BPs isn't really that mindblowing.
Bad staff examples: Laevetienn, Tupsimati


2) Mages have roles that they're kind-of bad at, but we can use the weapon to let them excel in a situation that they otherwise would be unable to fill. This improves a job's ability to do something that they *could* do, but normally wouldn't be brought along for. With the weapon, you'd bring them along for it.

Example:
* From the past: DRK tanking with Apocalypse at 75; Excalibur DDing at 75.
* If a staff gave 50% Avatar Haste, +50% Avatar Attack, and +50 Avatar STR it would improve Avatar DPS to the point that it isn't laughable compared to a solo melee. SMN/DNC could solo Dynamis, etc.
* If a staff "Increases Drain/Aspir Potency; Reduces Drain/Aspir Recast" by tripling their potency and halving recast, it would give the job a unique role. You could do substantial darkness damage with it (1200 HP drains) and/or drain monster's MP pools so they are unable to cast.
* If a staff reduced Enmity from Black Magic by 40 (surpassing the cap) and gave considerable damage/accuracy bonuses, it would increase the viability of black magic as a damage source in melee-heavy events like Legion where you really don't want the monster to move. You could use this in some of the places where you use Anni Rangers now.
etc.

Staff examples: None


3) Mages have roles that they really bad at, but we can make a weapon so that people who enjoy playing those roles will have an ultimate weapon to look forward to. This is basically focusing on improving the worst aspect of a job so that someone with the weapon is more rounded overall.

Example:
* Meleeing on staff jobs

Staff Examples: Claustrum, Hverg




I'd like to see more Category 2s. Making something like a mythic indicates devotion to the job that's far beyond normal, so being able to use the job more often and in more roles is a suitable reward.

The obvious problem with Relic/Empyreans is that multiple jobs use staves and Category 1/2 enhancements almost have to be job specific. It is also important to avoid packaging necessary job fixes onto a difficult-to-obtain item, when re-making weapons, though. That would be a strong argument against the Avatar DPS staff.

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relic and empyreans are puzzling too for the mages, they make no sense.

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they're not puzzling to me. They have a specific purpose: to be the strongest WEAPON weapons of their type: All relics other than shield/horn exist purely for this purpose. There are specific useful applications for these weapons (especially the empyrean) that have already been covered. If you don't like them or have any need for those applications, then don't get the weapon, it's that simple. They completely deserve to exist for those people that do want and can make use of them. If you want to argue that MNK should be added to the staff, I wouldn't dispute that, but SE isn't going to add any jobs to any relic weapons so it would be pointless to discuss.

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This is how mages feal about their relic/empy/mythic weapon. They have to tap into their weakest aspect of ability they have to bring the weapon to "shine": meleeing. this is a big flaw in desing imho

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It's not how I feel about my Empy. I am totally satisfied with the Empy staff. The "weaponskill" (which doesn't actually damage the enemy, nor even get you on its hate list0 is extremely useful in events. The rest of it is extremely useful for solo.

Repeated: If you don't like the weapon, just don't get it! If you do, then do get it! That simple....

Just wait for the fourth set of superweapons added to include geomancer and rune fencer.

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Good-ish staff examples: Nirvana - Sorry SMNs, but a 20% increase in damage for Magic BPs isn't really that mindblowing.

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there aren't many things in the game at all that I would describe as "mind blowing"- however you extremely undervalue Nirvana. Name 1 other way to boost BP's damage by the same amount for all events. There isn't one. It doesn't totally change the game, but it's still a substantial buff.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

There aren't many things in the game at all that I would describe as "mind blowing"- however you extremely undervalue Nirvana. Name 1 other way to boost BP's damage by the same amount for all events. There isn't one. It doesn't totally change the game, but it's still a substantial buff.

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Summoner is a shitty damage source. Nirvana increases magic BP damage (which you use against less-than-every target) by about 20% compared to a much-easier-to-obtain set.

* Does a 20% increase in damage make Summoner a good damage source?
No. You're still doing approximately one black magic nuke every 45 seconds.

* What does a 20% increase in magic BP damage give Summoner?
It makes Arch-Ultima and WoE fights <20% faster assuming everyone in your party has a Nirvana. If only you have a Nirvana, it doesn't save you even that much time. You're talking about 400-500mil to reduce fight times by 3% in an optimal case. I really doubt anyone is going to notice if the 1.5% you parse with your two BPs per Voidwatch fight increases to 1.8%.

* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?
No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.

* What could they have done to make it a more substantial boost?
Increases BP damage I~V, which would apply to Magic and Physical BPs. Have it scale from +10% to +35%. Due to the lack of competition for the stat (max of +26% from other sources, compared to ~+100 for MAB) you end up with a larger percentage increase. This boost still would not be "broken" because summoner would still be a crappy damage source, but at least it would be a more successful Category 1 staff.

* What is frustrating about this mindset?
You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.


Also, can someone please explain to SE why MAB staves suck? I swear if I see another of them I'm going to stand at the pacific coast and throw things out to sea until I hit SE's main offices.

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Originally Posted by Byrth

Summoner is a shitty damage source. Nirvana increases magic BP damage (which you use against less-than-every target) by about 20% compared to a much-easier-to-obtain set.

* Does a 20% increase in damage make Summoner a good damage source?
No. You're still doing approximately one black magic nuke every 45 seconds.


* What does a 20% increase in magic BP damage give Summoner?
It makes Arch-Ultima and WoE fights <20% faster assuming everyone in your party has a Nirvana. If only you have a Nirvana, it doesn't save you even that much time. You're talking about 400-500mil to reduce fight times by 3% in an optimal case. I really doubt anyone is going to notice if the 1.5% you parse with your two BPs per Voidwatch fight increases to 1.8%.

* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?
No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.

* What could they have done to make it a more substantial boost?
Increases BP damage I~V, which would apply to Magic and Physical BPs. Have it scale from +10% to +35%. Due to the lack of competition for the stat (max of +26% from other sources, compared to ~+100 for MAB) you end up with a larger percentage increase. This boost still would not be "broken" because summoner would still be a crappy damage source, but at least it would be a more successful Category 1 staff.

* What is frustrating about this mindset?
You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.


Also, can someone please explain to SE why MAB staves suck? I swear if I see another of them I'm going to stand at the pacific coast and throw things out to sea until I hit SE's main offices.

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Worthless post.

Nobody asked you if nor stated that summoner is "a good damage resource" or stated that Nirvana magically transforms you from bad to good.

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* Does it matter that there are few other good ways to boost BP damage?

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No, why would it? There aren't very many sources of Avatar Regen either, but that doesn't make the few 1HP/tick pieces in game useful.[/QUOTE]What does avatar regen have to do with damage? Your analogy is meaningless and poor.

You can hate summoner, you can say its bad, you can even be right. but that doesn't change the fact that Nirvana is a good item FOR SUMMONER. The issues you describe are issues with job design, not issues with item design, which is what this thread is about if I'm not mistaken. you said:

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You've essentially stated "Summoner has never gotten any gear that really matters, so Nirvana is awesome because it actually does something." I don't really think that we should lower the bar for SE. It's better to encourage them to make gear that actually has some impact on the Summoner job.

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It's not the item that's flawed. It's the job. 20% BP damage SHOULD be awesome. The issues are with the job itself.

SMN is innately flawed because with the current bp- cap, it will never have the frequency of damage that melees can put out. Also, as a quick aside, FIX AVATAR MELEE DPS! THE CELESTIAL GODS MELEE STRIKES SHOULDN'T BE WEAKER THAN A FREAKIN DAGGER HIT! << this urks me so much (i'll probably make a thread about this or something soon >.>). Anyway back on topic: Alhanelem, before ryuhigne was found to be awesome, DRG was considered flawed in terms on dps with other melee. However, this one weapon ryuhugne breaks that limit on drg damage(which was placed because of the damn wyvern). So I don't see why Nirvana can't do so for smn. But I also agree that the weapon shouldn't be the job fixes, especially the avatar melee attack issue.

Anyway, Laevateiin should act like ryuhigne, because unlike smn, blm is in a good position as the strongest magic damage source in the game. They just need that extra umph in their damage like drg got from ryuhigne. Even if blms are not outparsing 99 ukkos wars and what not, as long as they are competitive its fine. We have to remember that mages have to advantage of being outside of mob "kill you all" range. With that benefit comes the sacrifice of damage, which in my opinion is perfectly fair. On that same note, smn has hateless damage, but I believe the sacrifice in strength to was too great of a compromise for this hateless damage.