WHM is a better melee than RDM though so I still fail to see your argument. Hexa-Strike outclasses almost all of our WS except CDC, clubs have far higher base DMG than swords, WHM arguably has better haste pieces than us and can Enspell with Auspice. There is very little if anything that RDM has over WHM for meleeing.Quote:
while I totally support a better shield rating for WHM, it is still a job less associated with melee activity,
BRD has a B- in Dagger too and they're a better melee than us(Marchx2,can wear Hecatomb gear as well as sky god gear) but they have E in parrying. You can argue that it isn't BRD's primary job to melee but I could say neither is RDM's.
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10-04-2012, 02:03 PMOphannus
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10-04-2012, 07:33 PMsaevelUmm what....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophannus
This might of been sort true at 75 but WHM is severely crushed in the gear department. Clubs / Hammers suck for DPS, seriously their delay vs damage ratio is the worst in the game. Hexa is ~ok~ compared to the other WS's now available. It only has a 20% STR and MND Mod. Realmrazor is MUCH better WS, it copies fTP, has a stupid fTP to start with but is seven hit (eight with off hand) and 100% MND. This puts it in the boat as asuran fists where DA gear does absolutely nothing for it and it HIGHLY sensitive to accuracy. At capped accuracy you'll only hand all eight hits 66% of the time.
RDM has much better melee gear now then we did at 75, not nearly as good as it should be but definitely better then WHM (and to some extent BRD, depending). For Sword we have CDC which is really nice with Almace, otherwise you have Requiescat, a five hit ws (6 with off hand) that copies fTP, starts at 1.0 and has 100% MND WSC. Unfortunately it also has a -20% attack penalty which cripples it on anything VT or above. Swords also have really good damage vs delay ratio's something that is enhanced by RDM's native enspells. Daggers are also an option, though RDM doesn't have access to the STR dagger we do have the next best thing, Aluh Jambiya. Exenterator is a four hit (five with off hand) WS, doesn't copy fTP and is 100% AGI WSC. It's has lower potential then Requiescat but doesn't suffer from an attack penalty. Then you also have Mercy Stroke, one hit (two with off hand) 3.0 fTP 60% STR WSC. At 95 your looking at a 25% damage boost, at 99 a 40% damage boost. Having seen a 99 Mandau in action I can attest to how epically amazing it is, really high damage for it's delay.
Bard is in a special category as gear-wise it's a little weaker then RDM but not by much. Their saving grace is their buffs are so powerful that they make up for the gear deficient and them some. They also have an angle lure for 3% haste in their ranged slot (changing instruments doesn't reset TP). Relic +2 body is stupid awesome, +25 to attack / acc and +10 to STR /VIT/DEX/AGI makes it their best body piece for pretty much TP and WS. BRD can also use the magian daggers so the STR one is the obvious choice with a 99 Mandau. BRD suffers from what 75 era RDM did but on a slightly bigger scale. Songs take FOREVER to cast and have a relatively short duration. A BRD/NIN will spend quite a bit of time singing their buffs and that will cut into their swinging time. Same situation with a RDM cycling haste.
Anyhow, wanted to dispel the "WHM is better melee then RDM" crap. It was only semi-true at 75 because WHM's could reach the haste cap with blessed+1 gear and RDM's couldn't. Clubs and staves both are pretty bad delay vs damage, though the Crystal staff is pretty decent for Shattersoul spam (100% INT mod for the mages is a good thing due to the sheer amount of INT mages can get). Actually made me wish RDM had a B in staff skill, would make for some interesting builds.
-=Edit=-
Read your post again ... you seriously think RDM has a B- in sword / dagger? RDM's been a B (250@75) since long before I started playing (2003). BRD is B- in dagger (240@75) and C- in sword (220 @75). WHM is a B+ in club (256@75) and a C+ in staff (230). After 75 all skills of C or higher scaled by the EXACT same amount. The difference between B- and B @99 is 10 points, the difference between B and B+ is 6.
@99
A+: 424
A/A-:417
B+: 404
B: 398
B-: 388
C+: 378
C: 373
C-: 368
D: 334
@99 The difference between an A+ weapon and a B weapon is 26 skill or 26 attack and 23 accuracy. That comes out to a 11.5% hit rate difference, not exactly a big difference these days. Skill levels have very little meaning, WAR has a B+ in great sword vs an A+ in great axe, yet many wield that Wagnarok to amazing effect. Heck even without Rag a WAR can swing a Jingang GSWD Res build for some pretty insane damage (Legendary status weapons are obvious superior). So stop getting fixated on skill level and instead look at JA / JT and buffs / gear available. -
10-10-2012, 03:10 AMBabekekeOK, let me stop you right there. Let's have a look at what are considered the best weapons for all 3 weapons you're comparing here:Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
Almace 99: DMG 70 DPS 18.75
Mandau 99: DMG 55 DPS 18.75
Mjollnir 99: DMG 93 DPS 18.12
Almace and Mandau have a 3.4% higher DPS, whereas Mjollnir has a 32.8% higher base damage than Almace and a 69% higher base dmg than Mandau.
Off the AH options:
Apaisante +1 (Sword): 60 DMG 16.22 DPS
Vejovis Wand +1 (Club): 56 DMG 16 DPS
Aluh Jambiya (Dagger): 51 DMG 15.22 DPS
Not a great deal in them, with dagger being a little way behind, but having better stats in the STR and att. Certainly not worthy of the statement:
Trial weapons are very close for dagger and club, though sword pulls away a little here.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
Shikargar (Sword) DMG 61 DPS 15.91
Tutunui (Club) DMG 52 DPS 14.86
Thokcha (Dagger) DMG 47 DPS 14.84 -
10-10-2012, 03:21 PMsaevelShould of added "with the exception of Relic Hammer".Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
And those are incorrect numbers. You'll eventually figure out where you messed up copying from wiki.
Here is a clue, Mandau crush's all of them in melee DPS. -
10-11-2012, 02:21 AMBabekekeOK, I have to concede to your holiness. I have no idea where I went wrong with the DPS figures, unless you're referring to the additional effect: poison.Quote:
Originally Posted by saevel
I got the figures from BG wiki, and have now triple-checked them with wikipedia and ffxiah and they all say 18.75 for mandau and almace.
Unless you haven't looked since 75 and just assumed that Mandau is still the ruler of all that is DPS. -
10-11-2012, 02:54 AMsaevelYour allowing your desire to "prove someone wrong" to get ahead of your thinking. It's bad for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babekeke
You forgot to include fSTR into those adjustments. fSTR makes a very large difference to any low delay / DMG weapon. fSTR adds a static amount of base damage irrespective of the weapons delay, the lower the delay the more fSTR adds overall. Also fSTR doesn't scale with higher DMG, only it's cap raises and at a very slow rate. The lower your weapons DMG the more impact fSTR will have on it's damage potential. Clubs delay are simply too high, it puts them in the worst DPS position out of all the weapon class's.
99 Mandau
DMG: 55 Delay 176 (Rank 6, fSTR cap 14)
To reach that +14 fSTR you would need 52 STR over the targets VIT. It turns Mandau into a 69DMG 176 Delay dagger, a 25.4% increase in base dps.
99 Mjollnir
DMG: 93 Delay 308 (Rank 10, fSTR cap 18)
To reach that +18 you would need 68 STR over the targets VIT. It would turn Mjol into a 111DMG 308 Delay club, a 19.3% increase. Yet lets be real, you are not going to be 68 STR over the targets VIT as a WHM on anything that gives you XP. At the EXACT same amount of +STR the Mandau gets the Mjol is now a 107DMG 308 Delay club, now only a 15% increase in base DPS.
To top it off, the Mandau has a 176 delay to the Moj's 308 delay or 75% faster. It gets a bigger damage boost and will utilize that boost more often then the Moj. 2H weapons get ridiculous in how little fSTR changes their damage output even when you take into account their significantly better gear. This also explains why the STR weapons tend to be the absolute best offhand for DW jobs.
Now what is the real Mandau DPS
69DMG 176 Delay, 23.52 DPS
Moj
111DMG 308 Delay, 21.62 DPS (Absolute best possible on TW targets)
107DMG 308 Delay, 20.84 DPS (exact same STR / VIT as the above dagger)
99 Almace
70 DMG 224 Delay (Rank 7, 15 fSTR cap for +56 STR over targets VIT)
85 DMG 224 Delay, 22.76 DPS (Absolute best)
84 DMG 224 Delay, 22.5 DPS (same STR / VIT as above)
99 Shikagar
61 DMG 230 Delay (Rank 6, 14 fSTR cap)
75 DMG 230 Delay, 19.56 DPS
99 Tutunui
52 DMG 210 Delay (Rank 5, 13 fSTR cap)
65 DMG 210 Delay, 18.57 DPS
And just for good measure
99 Wagnarok
143 DMG, 431 Delay (Rank 15 23 fSTR cap, +88 STR over VIT needed)
166 DMG, 431 Delay 23.1 DPS (absolute best case fighting TW mobs)
That is how little STR effects bigger DMG weapons. At +88STR it only moves it 16%.
-=Edit=-
I also left out what DW does to your DPS numbers. A weaker off hand weapon will result in the averaging of the two's damage. You find out DPS by ((DMG *60)/Delay), so it's pretty trivial to account for fSTR and DW effects. -
10-14-2012, 12:45 PMOphannus
BRD songs last quite a while with all the new Enhances Song Duration gear as well as Troubadour. Songs can last like 5ish minutes or so. Also Nightingale makes songs insta-cast.
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10-14-2012, 05:21 PMsaevelYes and now. Troubadour makes songs take FOREVER to cast, using Nightingale makes them normal speed again. That is why BRD's tend to stack those two when doing their buff rotations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ophannus
Take Minuet V for example, 8s cast time 24s recast, 2 min duration.
Troubadour makes it 12s cast time and 4min duration, Nightingale would knock it down to 6s,at 5/5 makes it something like 1~2s or so (not quite instant cast but close)checked and it's insta-cast at 5/5. I'm not a BRD so I'm not absolutely positive how much +duration they can get, our 99 G.horn BRD seems to get about ~7min on his songs. Those JA's are 10m recast so your going to have a set of songs without them, and if your a Dura BRD then your talking four songs at a time.
Puts BRD into an interesting position, they have access to most of the gear and weapons to make a decent hybrid DD, along with buffs, AoE CC and Elegy. Too bad this game has no real content that plays to that style. -
10-15-2012, 12:38 AMDemon6324236
If you cap both, and use both, your buffs are instant, not normal speed.
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10-15-2012, 07:09 PMCrimson_SlasherThis here is true as far as i can tell, ive used both extensively lately myself and have been casting chainspell speeds, usually dont have time to see the song cast after swapping instruments even. Still though, there isnt short enough recast or long enough song recast to keep the abilities up fulltime when buffing, so i usually have to do a cycle of one up with N/T, and one or two with N/T down. Same applies to marcato sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demon6324236