Blu and rdm would still be able to tank better than PLD w/ this set up.Quote:
emnity idea would work, allowing cures to exceed the current cap, dissallowing any DD tanking (since damage done by any source would be unable to exceed the old cap and mages curing you would be killed) and giving pld a JA that allows it to also exceed the cap (give it to nin too but using this JA would greatly nerf its DD capability equalising it to pld as a tank). So like, any form of damage can go upto the current 100% cap at best, but cures, pld&nin using the special JA can take it upto 150%. Every job in the game should not be able to cap hate as they currently can.
Same thing applies, a rdm or blu would be a better tank here than PLDQuote:
Another way is to make new endgame mobs that simply don't take damage well at all under any circumstances and have lots of conal aoe moves(or normal moves being conal aoe, like iron giants), very high -damage taken and -magic dmg (lower hp to make the fight lengths about the same). In this way holding hate via damage simply won't work and again cures would exceed a DD's ability to tank anything at all. Specific tanks would be the only jobs able to hold hate while DD pick away at it. Mobs like this of course would also need to go into hyper rage mode doing massive unstunnable aoes if their hp bar drops too quick (to stop zergs and make the fight more tactical).
DT caps at 50% anyways, any decent geared DD would hardly be affected by this, if at all.Quote:
Lastly make all endgame mobs have high regain and lots of aoe moves, also make them rage within a fairly short amount of time to force you to put a lot of DD on it. Now give pld spells which give defferent types of auras, ie -50%+ damage taken to everyone within 10 distance of the pld. Pld with -dmg taken aura that covers all the DD allows you to take the mob down with lots of DD on it, also the mobs should have regular stages where it cannot be damaged every 5-10% hp taken aswell as -dmg to ranged attacks to stop zerging or getting around the need for auras.
All horrible ideas.
Enmity
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03-19-2011, 11:27 PMCream_Soda
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03-19-2011, 11:46 PMhiko
fix CE/VE modifier for damage dealt, give PLD an enmity boost trait (doesn't count in enmity+ cap, also affect VE decay), a damage resistance trait (doesnt count in DT- cap)
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03-20-2011, 12:18 AMGreever
funny thing is, pre lvl cap update, I could easily pull hate from any pld just melee'in with most of my DD's lol, not just mnk. A DD restraining itself has nothing to do with how a pld holds hate. Everyone caps out the same sooner or later.
TBH, pld isent a viable tank for anything that can be blink tanked. Other jobs just do it better. Blood tanking, other jobs just do it better lol. Holding hate, other jobs just do it better lol.
Raising enmity cap just for pld means u cap out and just stand there, u wont have much to do. Takes out a whole aspect of the game imo. pld caps hate, cure bomb pld, no risk of deathga/wipeage since no one can get hate off the pld. Would be nice to be able to go balls to the wall with certian jobs and not risk death. But it wont be the fix cause SE wont do it. Only way to make pld the #1 tank, is to make it a top teir DD in the game lol
Dont say...but outside of abyssea. Outside of abyssea, any DD is a better tank with /nin. If mob is squishy, pld cant cap hate. If mob is strong, DD's will cap hate just as fast as pld and be able to keep up because their DoT is not nearly as good as any DD. If ur not getting hit ur not curing, if ur curing the DD that pulled hate ur helping him survive as he continues to tank lol. -
03-20-2011, 03:16 PMDaleA DD restraining itself deffinitely has an impact on how well a Paladin can hold hate, especially toward the beginning of a fight. So i just disagree with you there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greever
I also disagree with you that blink/tanks just totally overshadow paladins. On certain fights Blink Tanks are better, on others Paladins are better. Paladin is the master of heal/tanking, and i've already tanked several Nms in abyssea without any healing support and no atma, something a blink tank probably coudn't have pulled off, or if it did, would have been very dangerous. It would be stupid if we were the best tank on everything anyway. It just depends on the situation and what you are up against.
A lot of paladins seem to just want to be the number 1 best tank against everything. That's not going to happen, and to be honest, it shouldn't. Monks need their day in the sun too - and frankly I'm glad to see so many more viable tanks in abyssea. MMOs have a tendancy to become way too dd heavy and overly reliant on one or two tank jobs. IMHO any melee should be able to tank.
A Paladin can do so much more than tank anyway. He can DD well (I don't care what anyone says, they can). They can heal well, especially if they use a staff for spirit taker. They can even play an effective support role with flash and cover. There is nothing wrong with this job, and there is plenty of stuff you can do if you find yourself in a situation where you aren't the best tank present.
But all that being said, I'm not against seeing some buffs :) And i woudn't mind seeing Paladins get their own provoke or an upgrade to the flash spell, as long as it didn't allow them to keep the enemy's attention easily no matter what everyone else did. -
03-20-2011, 09:04 PMZagenYou're missing what others are saying about MNK. There isn't a need for other DDs to restrain themselves when the MNK tank isn't restraining themselves because they will keep hate capped or recap it relatively quickly when compared to PLD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
Also why does everyone keep saying "PLD needs Provoke"? it was a crappy way to get hate before Abyssea it is still a crappy way to get hate now. I mean why was PLD/NIN the way to tank things if zerging was out of the question pre-Abyssea? Oh that's right shadow's lowered hate loss > provoke's hate gain. -
03-20-2011, 09:15 PMRunespiderYou could easily find ways to stop both of those jobs tanking(although i see nothing wrong with having 3-4 tanks as opposed to everything can tank, as it is), ie. give mobs conal tp moves or auras that have horribly dibilitating unremovable debuffs (slow2, silence, massive mp draining disease etc) which they could then make pld and nin immune to via new JA. Ultimately Square would use their own ideas anyway so spending too much thought or arguing specific ideas as a player is pointless, they were just to show a few ideas of things that could be done to show it's not impossible, they could make up proper fixes (being paid to do this stuff and all).Quote:
Blu and rdm would still be able to tank better than PLD.
When I mention this stuff of course I mean new proper raid mobs, HNM or bigger events. Not abyssea fluff which is now finished and done.
Personally I would like to see blood tanking back, fix defence etc but they probably won't do that either. -
03-20-2011, 11:58 PMMartel
The thing that always worried me when people say things like, "Fix def/VIT", is that SE will actually do it. And do it badly.
Any changes to such a fundamental function would end up being global. Meaning, sure, our def matters now. But the mobs def really, really matters now, lol. And howls of rage were heard across the world as people's DD output went down the drain.
I'm sure people will say something like, "But they'd only do it to PLD". This is SE. Remember the 2 hander update? When all the 2H type mobs(spiders, ohgod, drg mobs, etc) started tearing people to shreds? Somehow, I doubt giving 2H mobs a boost was needed to balance player dual wield vs 2H weapons. Or maybe the mamool DRGs were pissed at the NINs?
But really, it was necessary to change monster mechanics as well, because it was a change to a fundamental DMG mechanic. Like DEF and VIT. Now... they might manage to limit it to PLD mobs. Then we'd just have some crazy tough PLD mobs.
But hey, if they did "fix" def/vit, then everyone would be doing terrible damage. Then PLD could tank with flash and cure kits again. Ahh, the not-so-good ol' days. -
03-21-2011, 01:01 AMGreeverIts hard to restrain urself from just melee'in lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale
There were very few mobs that could be blood tanked that mattered pre-abyssea. In those cases usually /rdm could be used. But also in those cases RDM and or Blu could be better at it. And back in the day if u were using a pld tank for anything that mattered, it was /nin. Can u name one relevent NM that would be blood tanked, and which subjob was prefered? in any of those cases if its /rdm, a main rdm or blu could do it better.
Dont get me wrong, I used to love pld. played it for a long time. But as time progressed, I found that pld dosent have a nich compared to other jobs. Basically any job can do what a pld can with the same buffs (marches/haste/pro/shell/healing support). Pld had and still has no singular place in the game since its designed role (pld was designed to tank) can be filled by so many other jobs. It kinda makes me think of it as the frankenstien monster of the game lol. Its not a mage and its not a DD, its somewhere inbetween (yes pld can DD...other jobs just do it better lol).
Yes soloing with pld is great, ive solo'd things at 75 with pld/dnc that i would only try on rdm (only reason i did it on pld is because of attonement to make the fight faster lol).
As it stands, plds new motto should be "...other jobs just do it better" -
03-21-2011, 01:03 AMGreeverWhy go through such extream measures to make 1 job relevent?Quote:
Originally Posted by Runespider
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03-21-2011, 01:33 AMMartel*the above quote was edited for spelling and punctuation*Quote:
Originally Posted by Greever
I used to do Yilbegan as PLD/BLU. Fun mob. Gave me mad parry skill ups. Now, I don't know that Blu or RDM couldn't tank him better. I've never seen either of them try it. But I do have to wonder how a RDM would even keep hate. All the hate spells got nerfed. I guess try some Chant spam? Yilbegan was really tough defensively at 75, but I guess we'd just have to see about now.