On Red Mage melee...

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Tell me you've got numbers this time though besides that old thread of a Red Mage using a K Club which we have a D skill in...

Or if you'd like, why don't we swap places and you can give the mnk a staff and give a red mage a 1D dagger and see who wins...you'll get similar results.

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Uh. I'd be willing to bet MNK.

Willing to be being synonymous with "I'm positive of this fact that I am stating".

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Originally Posted by Supersun

I'm not 'heated' in the slightest actually. I just wrote that in a satirical manor hoping to highlight what's wrong with your arguments (ie. lack of proof, aka. numbers)

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I'm pretty sure you're heated and trying to play it off like a tuff guy

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It's ridiculous that you and your BG friends are taking a 5 second glance of data that was thoroughly discussed in-depth 3 years ago and completely discrediting it.

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Because it holds no water and has various factors removed from it to benefit the RDM at hand

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My last post wasn't 'debating' that my side was right over yours.
My last post was telling you to stop using the most blatant logical fallacies I've seen in a while. I mean good gosh, how many times have you appealed to authority instead of actually posting NUMBERS.

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Where are your alleged numbers? YOU have yet to post numbers, I have given you a clear reason as to why the #'s you gave were wrong/fake and you refused to listen.

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I mean you stated 1) You don't know HOW a Rdm would perform, but 2) it would be in the 20% range because you 'know' how Sam performs

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It's quite simple, RDM sucks at DD, SAM does not case closed and moving on.

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That would be what we call a logical fallacy. There is no actual evidence in that statement besides your claim that it is true.

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No, that's what we call logical thinking

No I'm stating that the entirty of that situation was pretty fucked up to begin with.

It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can do when they're not properly geared and not knowing what they're doing for certain. But all that it established was 'how bad' a RDM can do when they half ass things. All it did was prove the 'Zero to Hero' issues that RDM's gear and strategy has.

(Rdm had no enhancing gear, no WS gear, his TP gear consisted of wise feet, O-hat, scorp harness (nq) Miserecorde In short, a Bad RDM got to big for his britches and put in his place.)

And all I had to do was see K club to have to shake my head at it. It's really not a good idea to use K-club.

So we can agree that a half-assed Mnk wearing nothing is better than a half-assed rdm using tp/ws sets, and a well geared Mnk/Any other DD will destroy a well geared Rdm, right?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can do when they're not properly geared and not knowing what they're doing for certain. But all that it established was 'how bad' a RDM can do when they half ass things.

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Same could be said of DDs.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

No I'm stating that the entirty of that situation was pretty fucked up to begin with.

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I know, the monk didn't even get black belt and had 0 haste gear ><

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It's a great example of how horribly a RDM can get crushed by a naked monk

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You are correct!

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And all I had to do was see K club to have to shake my head at it. It's really not a good idea to use K-club.

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Lol, ITT sushi sucks and RDM can't use sushi and KC sucks

Doesn't count because the Rdm was using a club...

aka...He was gimp

See where I'm going with this?

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Tell me you've got numbers this time though besides that old thread of a Red Mage using a K Club which we have a D skill in...

Or if you'd like, why don't we swap places and you can give the mnk a staff and give a red mage a 1D dagger and see who wins...you'll get similar results.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

Since you missed it the first time, the Mnk isn't wearing anything at all.

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Vs a Rdm using a club...wow...amazing

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

*Mnk has no tp gear
*Mnk has no ws gear
*Rdm has full tp/ws sets and all you can point out is the offhand in your defense? Just lol.

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That wasn't his offhand...
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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

I see a blau mainhand, so yes, you're blind.

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Not in the picture above.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Where are your alleged numbers? YOU have yet to post numbers, I have given you a clear reason as to why the #'s you gave were wrong/fake and you refused to listen.

It's quite simple, RDM sucks at DD, SAM does not case closed and moving on.

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Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.

Edit: I compiled my last couple of posts here so I could delete the others to save space.

I see 2 pictures of gear, and one of him /nin with blau main hand, so yes, you are blind still.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.

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Are you so desperate to be right? I mean come on, we found out that data was removed from the parse, as well as a rdm melee doing that well at MJSP is absolutely ridiculous if you've ever partied there(doubt that you have but hey i could be wrong!)

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Same could be said of DDs.

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True, it works both ways for both jobs types.

But even with Blau, RDM was doing it wrong, downright backwards. Enspells counted for about 10% of DPS when properly boosted Weapon Skills, about 30%, depending on how well geared the WS set was. Which means RDM walked out of town with the wrong idea how to do things, not uncommon.

It would be like if a naked monk faced off against a k club warrior, just the club, full timing defender and no gear but his his out of date AH TP set.

Funny, yes. And an embarassment to be sure, but it diddn't prove anything except that DD jobs are less gear dependant against low defence T mobs. Well, that and K club RDM is a huge no no on anything but elementals.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Not in the picture above.

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Look again. You're either blind, or intentionally ignoring what is plain for all to see.

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Do you really not understand what a logical fallacy is? You have given NO reason that those numbers were fake besides either 1) You say so, 2) your BG friends say so, or 3) Because Sam is a DD.

That is not logic OR reason, that is your personal opinion being treated as a fact.

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How about inadequate testing environment documentation? I saw no gearsets listed for that alla parse, so until I see otherwise I'm assuming everyone was wielding ash clubs and wearing bikinis. That's not exactly compelling evidence for your case.

KC rdm sucks? really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XfsPLAr3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVTg...eature=related

So instead of arguing what we were before (A RDM can do 80% of a GREAT DD in a merit party) we're now arguing that a RDM can out DD a naked MNK?

safefacegranite.jpg

In 2006, yes, Rdm KC sucked on anything more then a decent challenge. No amount of accuracy and sushi in the world is going to get that D rated weapon to land on even trash mobs

Seems like it!

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Originally Posted by Supersun

In 2006, yes, Rdm KC sucked on anything more then a decent challenge. No amount of accuracy and sushi in the world is going to get that D rated weapon to land on even trash mobs

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Actually sushi and acc gear would so you're wrong again sir.

Assuming 75 rdm/rng capped club with no merits+sushi, the gear shown in pic, he would have had at least... 82% accuracy assuming a T mob with 330 evasion. Of course, I have no clue what evasion Jnun has.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

KC rdm sucks? really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3XfsPLAr3A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SVTg...eature=related

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Yes, it sucks. Abyssea might break the mechaics, due to how crap broken Abyssea is. But the Attercotts are a miserable refrence for 75. Try hitting anything above T with that tactic 75. I have. Wif wif wif wif wif wif wif wif.

Still, it'd be fun to see how Kittycatty measures up against Zafire, though.

Out of courosity Aurara, what atmas was Kitty using?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Yes, it sucks. Abyssea might break the mechaics, due to how crap broken Abyssea is. But the Attercotts are a miserable refrence for 75. Try hitting anything above T with that tactic 75. I have. Wif wif wif wif wif wif wif wif.

Still, it'd be fun to see how Kittycatty measures up against Zafire, though.

Out of courosity Aurara, what atmas was Kitty using?

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I have no idea, i searchrd RDM KC and those came up. Your gear obviously is terrible because my rdm at 75 could have melee gear good enough to have decent acc with KC.

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Originally Posted by Aurara

Actually sushi and acc gear would so you're wrong again sir.

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Maybe against that easy prey spider in that video, but against an actual exp monster (which is what I meant by trash mob)

Against Greater Colibri I calculate that a Rdm/Rng would be landing the KClub at ~70% rate eating sushi and wearing accuracy gear (with ~15% haste from gear).

Not as bad as I thought but still not going to beat Blau/Joy at the time. Not even close. Biggest deal breaker is going to be the lack of attack making the TP phase virtually worthless

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Originally Posted by Supersun

Maybe against that easy prey spider in that video, but against an actual exp monster (which is what I meant by trash mob)

Against Greater Colibri I calculate that a Rdm/Rng would be landing the KClub at ~70% rate eating sushi and wearing accuracy gear (with ~15% haste from gear).

Not as bad as I though but still not going to beat Blu/Joy at the time. Not even close. Biggest deal breaker is going to be the lack of attack making the TP phase virtually worthless

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And blau/joytoy wont come close to SAM lol

GC are IT with evasion bonus, Jnun used in that parse are T. Regardless, it just gets worse if you start picking stronger mobs.

To Aurora: piercing bonus vs hagun sam remember?

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

GC are IT with evasion bonus, Jnun used in that parse are T. Regardless, it just gets worse if you start picking stronger mobs.

To Aurora: piercing bonus vs hagun sam remember?

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D'OH HOW COULD I FORGET ><

wow.. this thread gets derailed like what? once a week. i don't get it really... we're ALL here because we agree that rdm melee atm is sad and depressing and bad....

the argument here shouldn't be what red mage can do.. it's more like what to do about red mage...

really... it's gettin' old having this same argument every few pages...

fairly simple. rdm melee, change it? yes/no? is yes, how? if no, then... that's it.. done.


i don't think anybody is gonna convince anybody of anything at this point when talking about the past or the present. stop beating your teams respective dead horse..

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I have no idea, i searchrd RDM KC and those came up. Your gear obviously is terrible because my rdm at 75 could have melee gear good enough to have decent acc with KC.

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Was referring more to Range ACC and Sidewinder, and how Sidewinder is Penalized when RDM has a native D rating in Archery.

Plenty of Range Accuracy Gear available to equip, mind you. (+160 at 75 iirc) But you praticaly have to full on R.Acc to get decent land rates, which takes away from your modifiers.

Abyssea bypasses this due to Bonus Stats and Atmas.

Which is why I asked what Atmas.

Forgetting the parses against Mamool Ja, or did that just slip your mind too?

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Forgetting the parses against Mamool Ja, or did that just slip your mind too?

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You mean the parse that was tampered with and had SA/TA from thf/war removed, and lurker data taken out of it?

Naked mnk parses: The rdm had 91.78% accuracy in one of the parses, and 89.57% accuracy in the other. Accuracy from kclub was not a problem in the parse.

Do you have a Blau/Joy parse at 75 to say that his damage/accuracy ratings are tampered with?

This guilty until proven innocent thing is wearing really thin.

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Naked mnk parses: The rdm had 91.78% accuracy in one of the parses, and 89.57% accuracy in the other. Accuracy from kclub was not a problem in the parse.

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Yes, actually, it was. He's hemmoraging his main hand accuracy to make up for a D rated weapon. He should have never been eating sushi on a T mob.

He admitted he removed all data involving lurkers so yes it was tampered with from the start.

No food in the game was going to make him double his damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by Neisan_Quetz

He admitted he removed all data involving lurkers so yes it was tampered with from the start.

No food in the game was going to make him double his damage anyway.

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No, he showed his accuracy for that camp not including lurkers to give a base minimum accuracy of what you need for the camp in general. EVERYONE has problems hitting lurkers. His actual parse DID in fact include the lurkers though (80% accuracy with them thrown in)

(http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.htm...5&h=50&p=3#151)

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Without including the lurkers, my acc was 84.4%

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From the mamool parse, which makes it sound like he could very well have dropped the lurker data from the parse.

If the kclub attacked once per round and had an accuracy of 84%, then it would take a mainhand accuracy of 96% (above capped) to get to an average accuracy of 90%. Since its a kclub and average many more attacks than that, the accuracy was probably around 86-88% on the club.

I never had issues, maybe because i had feint all the time.

Hyrist

I just noticed you're on my server. Want to parse your RDM against my SAM at greater colibri or mammool SP synced to lvl 75? I'll give you a chance to prove you can do 80% of what I put up! My SAM isn't even that good! the odds are in your favor! But hey, this is your chance to prove your point right?

EDIT::: Personally I don't believe the RDM can do 80% of a SAM BS but do want to see if its true =3

Hey kam, i have a 75 drg we can sync to to do this parse :3

Edit: if you are serious you'll take us up on the offer, we'll even have outside healers so you can focus on DD only :D

So long as it's done in good faith and sportsmanship, I'm not opposed to doing another proof of concept. (Read, not the first time my gimp ass has gone up against Mamool Ja.)

Two major concerns I have, however:

The first one:

This is Starfox's TP gear at the time of the 08 parse.

Right now I'm running as follows:
Blau/Joy Tipha
Turban P.charm Brutal Suppa
Goliard, Dusk, Lava's, Kusha's
Amenant+1 Swift, Prince's, Dusk (nq)

I'm running a rather large chunk behind in STR (should also note his max STR merits to my 1). Though I'm ahead in haste, I'm apprehensive that my damage per hit is going to suffer for the difference. I remember he was pretty Adamant about having an appropriate str boost. I could probably swap in dusk legs to help slightly. However, I don't have an adequate enough single acc ring to bring my Raja's into the equation. (That or I'm underestimating my accuracy.)

This isn't getting into my woefully inadequate Evisceration gear. Put bluntly: I don't have one. It's just sort of patched together from gear I have, and I was going to improve upon with gear that has come out since my hiatus. But I'm not afraid of Jerry rigging it. (I'll post the full set once I've got the macro reprogrammed.) If nothing else, it'll show me where I need to emphasize changes.

This said, the second major concern is job adjustments since said date. Samurai had Zanshin update. Not so worried about DRG, they should be where they were before.

On the other hand, I will be using composure, which was not available at the time of Starfox's parse. So there's some give and take there as well.

I will likely not be doing 80% of any DD that's up to par on their gear. (We've never established what 'par' was, however.) But I'm not afraid of seeing how far my current work has gotten me. We can math the difference between myself and Starfox. (Sad, if he was playing, he'd be the one to challenge, he was on Odin after all. I don't think he still plays, however.)

So, while we're being up front, what gear sets on SAM and DRG am I going to be parsing against?

If you have time I'd suggest getting a pair of augmented ASA pants with Acc and haste. That's a pretty big jump in damage.

(that and dusk +1 boots are pretty cheap now, at least on my server)

Other then maybe upgrading your back to a foragers/cerberus+1 your TP set is looking pretty solid.

(also, another thing to note is some of the merits have been adjusted since 75)

A good SAM was using a 6-hit and a Hagun, Polearm for Lolibri. None of the following was particularily hard to get, and I think for the most part pretty common. This SAM in a party with a BRD is going to average (1hit WS) 1100-1400, low (DA WS, 1st hit miss) 700-900 and high (Double attack) 1800-2400 - all numbers being higher with a 2nd brd or cor, meat, zerk up

This is my old setup, a 6 hit, with a 5 hit following WS.

TP
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222742

WS
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/222743

I've been lazy with the Add-ons. Still been debating whether or not I can take the accuracy Calmecac Trousers, which would be better if I can. It's kind of hard to parse that without a solid point of comparison like back in the ToAU days.

Even if I fail this parse hard, I'm not suddenly going to /toss my Melee gear. It's been a long standing hobby and, at the bare minimum, some of this gear will be useful pulling my BLU off the back shelf.

Starfox said he could tango with the big DDs, he showed his evidence, I even partied with him as the Back Line RDM. These guys seem to think the DDs he parsed against sucked. I think that's a unfair assessment, but I'm not going to pretend I know SAM or DRG the way I know RDM. So lets see. I'm interested in knowing what they think is sub par gear for their class.

But I really got to spend some time meriting. Time though, being the problem. I get on, it's dynamis/limbus/abyssea farming for a couple hours, and then I log off.

Um.... that rdm was a gimp, there's no way he did as good as people are saying, unless the people he was parsing against were absolutely terrible.
Also: 415 acc should be enough to cap you on anything other then lurkers, try to cap haste and hit that, and make a respectable WS set so you don't have a bunch of excuses for why you can't do it.

As for me and my gear, I'm pretty sure I have everything useful for lvl 75 SAM, or can go get it off the AH, with the exception of amano, so lol.
EDIT: No Justice torque, or bushi =[